The Official English Rugby Thread

[Paddington Bear]

F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to.

Has he? We started the second half pretty poorly and he was yanked off quite early, things picked up massively when Ford came on. The middle of the first half wasn't that impressive either. Not all down to either player, obviously, but a fit and firing Ford is still our best fly half while F. Smith is still very green at this level, so I don't think anything's settled at all.

He’d led an attack that was 35 points up at half time!

And yes Ford is an excellent player, I think it’s clear Borthwick wants to go with a younger option and that leaves Smith or Smith, and one is better suited to test rugby than the other

[Rhubarb & Custard]

You could easily have said at the end of the autumn internationals Marcus had claimed the 10 shirt. Really we've two good young 10s and an older perhaps still slightly better 10 in Ford. There would be good reasons for picking any of them.

Positives this 6N has been the emergence of Stuart as a good starter, previously he's only looked good off the bench for me. And Heyes has done a job coming off the bench. And the return of one Curry and the emergence of the other.

Lots of questions though, will we turn to Dan as a hooker, who will partner Itoje, will there be a 3rd lock on the bench, what's the backrow balance to be, will Hill get a shot, who's the 10, who're the centres, who are the wingers and who's the 15? Nice to end with two much better performances, maybe next time we'll start a little better

[Paddington Bear]

You could easily have said at the end of the autumn internationals Marcus had claimed the 10 shirt. Really we've two good young 10s and an older perhaps still slightly better 10 in Ford. There would be good reasons for picking any of them.

Positives this 6N has been the emergence of St

The difference of course is that we lost every game of consequence in the Autumn

[Rhubarb & Custard]

You could easily have said at the end of the autumn internationals Marcus had claimed the 10 shirt. Really we've two good young 10s and an older perhaps still slightly better 10 in Ford. There would be good reasons for picking any of them.

Positives this 6N has been the emergence of St

The difference of course is that we lost every game of consequence in the Autumn

We should have lost to France and Scotland this time, and that we didn't was in many ways nothing to do with us unless perhaps Fin Smith was using the force to have all those try scoring chances dropped.

[Paddington Bear]

You could easily have said at the end of the autumn internationals Marcus had claimed the 10 shirt. Really we've two good young 10s and an older perhaps still slightly better 10 in Ford. There would be good reasons for picking any of them.

Positives this 6N has been the emergence of St

The difference of course is that we lost every game of consequence in the Autumn

We should have lost to France and Scotland this time, and that we didn't was in many ways nothing to do with us unless perhaps Fin Smith was using the force to have all those try scoring chances dropped.

Must have imagined us scoring a try bonus point against France and him nailing a kick from the halfway line vs Scotland then!

[sockwithaticket]

F Smith has settled the debate at fly half for a bit, he’s a real talent and sets up exactly as a test 10 needs to.

Has he? We started the second half pretty poorly and he was yanked off quite early, things picked up massively when Ford came on. The middle of the first half wasn't that impressive either. Not all down to either player, obviously, but a fit and firing Ford is still our best fly half while F. Smith is still very green at this level, so I don't think anything's settled at all.

He’d led an attack that was 35 points up at half time!

And yes Ford is an excellent player, I think it’s clear Borthwick wants to go with a younger option and that leaves Smith or Smith, and one is better suited to test rugby than the other

Against the poorest Wales side of my lifetime. It's not nothing, but I don't think it's enough to settle any debate. I like F. Smith, I like the way Northampton play and having him there with so many of his teammates is great for cohesion in attacl, but I think it's still far too early to be declaring him the guy.

The biggest factors as to whether the side go well remain our gameplan and overall team composition. Last year we finished with the two toughest opponents (France and Ireland) rather than the two easiest , the performances in the final '24 games were our best of the tournament because we moved away from the awful anti-rugby we had been trying. Give M. Smith his head, have the team play with some ambition and select a midfield enencumbered by Slade and I'm pretty sure he could guide England to a punishment level score against tier 2 opposition too.

On Ford vs. younger options, Borthwick's mostly been forced into going with either Smith because of Ford's lack of fitness and thus form lately. If Ford stays fit I feel certain he'll go back to first choice with one of the Smith's as understudy.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

The difference of course is that we lost every game of consequence in the Autumn

We should have lost to France and Scotland this time, and that we didn't was in many ways nothing to do with us unless perhaps Fin Smith was using the force to have all those try scoring chances dropped.

Must have imagined us scoring a try bonus point against France and him nailing a kick from the halfway line vs Scotland then!

If you wish to consider that negates all the poor/indifferent play he was party too and makes an indisputable case he must retain the shirt fair enough.

Fwiw I would pick him at 10 next game up, just for me that'd be around trying to build some continuity/progress and not because I think he's wholly claimed the shirt in a manner not seen since Jonny

[Ovals]

Assuming Finn is in the Lions party, and Marcus isn't - and assuming Furbank is fit for the Argentina tour - will Borthers put Marcus back at FH or go with Ford......

I'm looking forward to our summer tour - should see some new talent getting an opportunity. Should be interesting to see who comes in as we're likely to lose around 10 of our normal 'starters'. Unfortunately it will probably mean JVP will be the starting SH

[geordie_6]

One thing we desperately need is to figure out viable depth at lock, which feels very bizarre to say as an England fan. After Itoje, Ollie Chessum and Martin it's not immediately clear where we go. CCS did well enough yesterday moving into the row, but he is not a long term solution.

[Paddington Bear]

We should have lost to France and Scotland this time, and that we didn't was in many ways nothing to do with us unless perhaps Fin Smith was using the force to have all those try scoring chances dropped.

Must have imagined us scoring a try bonus point against France and him nailing a kick from the halfway line vs Scotland then!

If you wish to consider that negates all the poor/indifferent play he was party too and makes an indisputable case he must retain the shirt fair enough.

Fwiw I would pick him at 10 next game up, just for me that'd be around trying to build some continuity/progress and not because I think he's wholly claimed the shirt in a manner not seen since Jonny

We can certainly agree he isn’t perfect - yesterday was his fourth international start and he will need to develop. With this said we *do* know what we get from M Smith as he comes up to 50 caps with barely a tier 1 scalp as a starter to his name. He’s undeniably a phenomenal talent and the criticism he gets from Jones etc. is unhinged, but his game does not consistently threaten international teams as it does club ones, and at some point we’ll need to accept that as a feature rather than a bug.

Re: Ford above, I don’t discount Borthwick going back to him from time to time, but given we are now in bUiLdInG fOr ThE wOrLd CuP timescales (and in fairness to Borthwick this is clearly a diktat from up high), I think he’s going to ensure Smith has a large book of starts behind him

[el capitan]

For the second six nations in a row, things got brighter - both in the wins, and especially in terms of the rugby product - the longer the tournament went on and after they'd copped a bit of stick. However a lot of that probably was down to playing Italy and Wales last, and you can't blame anyone for being sceptical given last year wasn't built on and England quickly went back to negative terrorist rugby tactics.

I think overall F. Smith showed enough, and given all the other Saints backs in the mix for a place, that he deserves an extended run in the 10 shirt now. If he's not there, Ford is a capable experienced understudy for the starting spot (and mentor also). M. Smith for me permanently rides the pine in the 22 shirt if everyone in the backline is fit. Some might say that's harsh, and a waste of natural talent, but I think he's just too individualistic and lacking in controlling both his own game and the rest of the backline at test level. Plus to focus on the positive aspects of that role, great weapon to bring on depending on the situation, either at 10 or wider out, if you want more of a running threat from your playmaker or as the game breaks open.

[Ovals]

Following that game against Wales - how long will it be before England go with a 7/1 bench - considering we didn't really need Ford on the bench - we could have done it yesterday - and with guys, like Earl and Pollock, able to fill in in the backs - I reckon it is just a matter of time, especially when we take on sides like France and SA.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

For the second six nations in a row, things got brighter - both in the wins, and especially in terms of the rugby product - the longer the tournament went on and after they'd copped a bit of stick. However a lot of that probably was down to playing Italy and Wales last, and you can't blame anyone for being sceptical given last year wasn't built on and England quickly went back to negative terrorist rugby tactics.

Not to rag on them, they get a bad enough rap as is, but what pray tell would be positive terrorist rugby?

[sockwithaticket]

Following that game against Wales - how long will it be before England go with a 7/1 bench - considering we didn't really need Ford on the bench - we could have done it yesterday - and with guys, like Earl and Pollock, able to fill in in the backs - I reckon it is just a matter of time, especially when we take on sides like France and SA.

I hope never, but against those particular teams who may well do it themselves it seems an inevitability.

A bit dispriting tbh. Seems to indicate that the game becomes ever more a collision sport and the days of being an evasion game are long, long past.

[Paddington Bear]

Following that game against Wales - how long will it be before England go with a 7/1 bench - considering we didn't really need Ford on the bench - we could have done it yesterday - and with guys, like Earl and Pollock, able to fill in in the backs - I reckon it is just a matter of time, especially when we take on sides like France and SA.

I hope never, but against those particular teams who may well do it themselves it seems an inevitability.

A bit dispriting tbh. Seems to indicate that the game becomes ever more a collision sport and the days of being an evasion game are long, long past.

I think it’s inevitable, has to have been discussed now Earl has had stints in the centres. We’re arguably the only other union capable of consistent physical parity with France and SA, and if that’s the way they’re going we likely have to follow.

We also increasingly have dynamism on the bench, CCS, Willis, Dan, Pollock etc

[Ovals]

Following that game against Wales - how long will it be before England go with a 7/1 bench - considering we didn't really need Ford on the bench - we could have done it yesterday - and with guys, like Earl and Pollock, able to fill in in the backs - I reckon it is just a matter of time, especially when we take on sides like France and SA.

I hope never, but against those particular teams who may well do it themselves it seems an inevitability.

A bit dispriting tbh. Seems to indicate that the game becomes ever more a collision sport and the days of being an evasion game are long, long past.

Agreed. I foresee a time (soon) when it is normal to have Backrowers who are hybrid forwards that cover for the centres. Someone like Pollock could easily become one such player.

[Kawazaki]

Anyone who has watched England play with FS at 10 compared to how they play with MS at 10 and then can't see any discernible improvement is either a hopeless rugby observer and/or a pathetic Quin fanboy.

The difference is night and day. There's just far more headroom for England to play with FS pulling the strings. I'm looking forward to seeing FS play a test match with a proper 15 behind him when Furbank returns.

[Ovals]

Anyone who has watched England play with FS at 10 compared to how they play with MS at 10 and then can't see any discernible improvement is either a hopeless rugby observer and/or a pathetic Quin fanboy.

The difference is night and day. There's just far more headroom for England to play with FS pulling the strings. I'm looking forward to seeing FS play a test match with a proper 15 behind him when Furbank returns.

And both a big improvement over Farrell

[Kawazaki]

Anyone who has watched England play with FS at 10 compared to how they play with MS at 10 and then can't see any discernible improvement is either a hopeless rugby observer and/or a pathetic Quin fanboy.

The difference is night and day. There's just far more headroom for England to play with FS pulling the strings. I'm looking forward to seeing FS play a test match with a proper 15 behind him when Furbank returns.

And both a big improvement over Farrell

On a line with Owen Farrell at one end and Marcus Smith at the other, Fin Smith is far far nearer Owen Farrell in terms of keeping the ball ahead of his forwards, controlling tempo, defence, goal kicking, tactical kicking and bringing other players onto the ball.

I suspect it will be touch and go whether Marcus Smith maintains a regular place in the team when other options are available again.

[Paddington Bear]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

[petej]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

Harry Ellis at 9?

[sockwithaticket]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

Harry Ellis at 9?

Matt Dawson comes across as a prick.

Johnny Hill seems like a pretty good shout for the 5 shirt.

What did Foden do?

[tc27]

Ford was pretty bloody good at the end wasn't he? I think he's being quietly brilliant for a while. Long term the Smiths are probably better options but would not at all upset if he was starting at ten.

[Ovals]

Ford was pretty bloody good at the end wasn't he? I think he's being quietly brilliant for a while. Long term the Smiths are probably better options but would not at all upset if he was starting at ten.

He was very good - but the game was over and the Welsh had got very ragged - an armchair ride with gaps everywhere in the defence. His own defence wasn't tested either - Fin is very good on both sides of the ball.

[sockwithaticket]

Ford was pretty bloody good at the end wasn't he? I think he's being quietly brilliant for a while. Long term the Smiths are probably better options but would not at all upset if he was starting at ten.

He was very good - but the game was over and the Welsh had got very ragged - an armchair ride with gaps everywhere in the defence. His own defence wasn't tested either - Fin is very good on both sides of the ball.

He came on around 55 minutes and the Welsh very much had the better of that inital 10 -15 after half time. They couldn't score, but they had us pinned in our third of the pitch. Ford's arrival seemed to coincide with lifting our game again.

[Paddington Bear]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

Harry Ellis at 9?

Matt Dawson comes across as a prick.

Johnny Hill seems like a pretty good shout for the 5 shirt.

What did Foden do?

Got remarried on the day he divorced!

[SaintK]

Found on my phone from last night - an attempt to name an England all time (pro era) worst blokes XV. Missing a few positions but not a bad side tbh:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Marler
4. Grewcock
5. X
6. The HASK (c)
7. Armitage
8. Dallaglio
9. X
10. Cipriani
11. Ashton
12. Hape
13. Teo
14. Foden
15. Armitage

Some bloody good players there mind!

[Kawazaki]

He came on around 55 minutes and the Welsh very much had the better of that inital 10 -15 after half time. They couldn't score, but they had us pinned in our third of the pitch. Ford's arrival seemed to coincide with lifting our game again.

Jesus wept, you've gone full Quintard!