Bledisloe II: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sunday 18th Oct

[Dan54]

I'm curious as to why Beau Baz is so vocal about preferring 10.

He goes so well at the back with more space and time.

No way he has time to make those plays at 10.

I think we are almost guaranteed to see BB start at 10 in one of the tests in next month or so, as Fozzie and crew are going to want to try a few things I would think. That's not knocking Mounga, just if he gets injured imagine the screaming if BB wasn't up to speed at 10, same will happen with a few positions, I know it is great to get loosies midfield etc running in combos, you also need to be able to slip in replacements where needed.

[Trapper]

Seems crazy to me anyone would want to swap Mo’unga and Beaudy around after they have just put their best performance together in the dual playmaking role, whatever the that is. If continuity is a good enough reason for selecting coaches then it should be good enough for the players. I’m sick of this chopping and changing schtick, trying to be too clever bullshit.

[Dan54]

I have one more question, when looking at this result there seems to be a general disregard for the Wallabies, are they not considered worthy of being a test team? I actually think it has the makings of being quite a good bloody team, plenty of good young players etc, so either some don't consider Rennie as good a coach as I think he is or perhaps we need to give ABs a bit of credit for a 20 point victory?
And I not saying they didn't have things to work on, but struck me they were pretty similar to AB teams of the last few years, go into game, stay wilt other team for most of game, and seem to do all of their scoring in a 15-20 minute period. It's not often we completely dominate any team for 50-60 minutes of a test.

[Dan54]

Seems crazy to me anyone would want to swap Mo’unga and Beaudy around after they have just put their best performance together in the dual playmaking role, whatever the that is. If continuity is a good enough reason for selecting coaches then it should be good enough for the players. I’m sick of this chopping and changing schtick, trying to be too clever bullshit.

I just think it is what will happen, same as Smith and TJ will swap, just seems to be way coaches have done it for years, covering bases. Mate if someone has to play in an important test because of injury to another player I can see the screaming on forums if they haven't had a bit of game time.

[Flockwitt]

I have one more question, when looking at this result there seems to be a general disregard for the Wallabies, are they not considered worthy of being a test team? I actually think it has the makings of being quite a good bloody team, plenty of good young players etc, so either some don't consider Rennie as good a coach as I think he is or perhaps we need to give ABs a bit of credit for a 20 point victory?
And I not saying they didn't have things to work on, but struck me they were pretty similar to AB teams of the last few years, go into game, stay wilt other team for most of game, and seem to do all of their scoring in a 15-20 minute period. It's not often we completely dominate any team for 50-60 minutes of a test.

I think there's a lack of acknowledgement that the NZ coaches did manage to readjust. Rennie showed with a rookie Oz team in the first Bled just how good a coach he is, getting them playing excellent pressure rugby in difficult conditions straight out of the blocks. The ABs rejigged, and yes, while there was some individual flashes that helped, fundamentally the Wallabies didn't get to enforce their game plan. It's a new coaching set up and both sides will be learning. Bring on the next test!

[Guy Smiley]

I have one more question, when looking at this result there seems to be a general disregard for the Wallabies, are they not considered worthy of being a test team? I actually think it has the makings of being quite a good bloody team, plenty of good young players etc, so either some don't consider Rennie as good a coach as I think he is or perhaps we need to give ABs a bit of credit for a 20 point victory?
And I not saying they didn't have things to work on, but struck me they were pretty similar to AB teams of the last few years, go into game, stay wilt other team for most of game, and seem to do all of their scoring in a 15-20 minute period. It's not often we completely dominate any team for 50-60 minutes of a test.

I think there's a lack of acknowledgement that the NZ coaches did manage to readjust. Rennie showed with a rookie Oz team in the first Bled just how good a coach he is, getting them playing excellent pressure rugby in difficult conditions straight out of the blocks. The ABs rejigged, and yes, while there was some individual flashes that helped, fundamentally the Wallabies didn't get to enforce their game plan. It's a new coaching set up and both sides will be learning. Bring on the next test!

The ABs made a bit of a statement in the opening minutes... they weren’t going to be pushed around at the breakdown this week like they were last. They won turnovers repeatedly. I made a comment in the PR match thread that they looked like they’d been given a taste of the cattle prod. So no... the Wallabies didn’t get to enforce their game plan.

There’s a lesson in there somewhere, I just can’t quite put my finger on it.

[Gumboot]

Toomua was a huge loss for Aus when he went off. It's no coincidence the ABs' attack was far more effective in the second half. Also thought Goodhue was very good crashing the ball up and committing more defenders.

[Guy Smiley]

Toomua was a huge loss for Aus when he went off. It's no coincidence the ABs' attack was far more effective in the second half. Also thought Goodhue was very good crashing the ball up and committing more defenders.

Yeah, agree on both points SAM. I’ve been a bit of a Toomua fan, he plays a smart, hard working game. His going off hurt them immensely, JOC wasn’t going to flourish alone as pivot. Goodhue runs intelligent attacking lines and he puts in a massive effort defensively, you see him directing traffic a lot or moving to counter... I still feel he’s best at 13 even though he makes a decent fist of it at 12. I really enjoyed seeing ALB out there with him too... that 13 jersey popped up in a lot of moves and moved both ball and bodies very efficiently.

[Ted.]

I get the same disturbing feeling I’ve been getting for the last few years...

Individual talent is overcoming poor structure. Why do we persist in box kicks off the back of hard win ball? Smith kicks possession away nearly all the time. Who actually does take the kicks? When the game got frantic either side of half time structure went out the window and what looked like luck and determination carried us through.

It’s good to walk away with a win and better form from key players but I actually agree with not couch here and think the result papers over the cracks.

Absolutely. I was getting quite animated south the patently obvious low percentage box kicks and up and unders. I hate to say it, but Richie needs to take charge, rather emulating Smith it that regard. He needs to start leading the team around the park like we know he is capable of. If this is a continuation of Foster's bereft attack ideology, he needs to get the message that the players actually know what they are doing. I suspect Foster micro manages because he doesn't have a workable vision for the team. Let's not forget that Foster himself was a 1st 5/8 that kicked the shit out of the ball.

You seem to be blaming Mo'unga for Aaron Smith's poor and shallow kicking over the past two tests? That's weird.

It's not at all weird. I want Mo'unga to take charge, run the cutter, guide the team around the park. He can't do that when Smith is banging up his ineffectual box kicks. The recovery rate from those kicks is very poor. So he has to tell Smith to either kick long or give it to someone who can, for example Mo'unga, or either Barrett.

[MungoMan]

Absolutely. I was getting quite animated south the patently obvious low percentage box kicks and up and unders. I hate to say it, but Richie needs to take charge, rather emulating Smith it that regard. He needs to start leading the team around the park like we know he is capable of. If this is a continuation of Foster's bereft attack ideology, he needs to get the message that the players actually know what they are doing. I suspect Foster micro manages because he doesn't have a workable vision for the team. Let's not forget that Foster himself was a 1st 5/8 that kicked the shit out of the ball.

You seem to be blaming Mo'unga for Aaron Smith's poor and shallow kicking over the past two tests? That's weird.

It's not at all weird. I want Mo'unga to take charge, run the cutter, guide the team around the park. He can't do that when Smith is banging up his ineffectual box kicks. The recovery rate from those kicks is very poor. So he has to tell Smith to either kick long or give it to someone who can, for example Mo'unga, or either Barrett.

Excellent player that Smith is, gotta agree about his kicking. His box kicks are on a par with Genia's: a surefire way to reduce his team's supporters to tears and bad language.

[Guy Smiley]

Yes, Ted. Yes.


While carrying out my morning ablutionary ritual this morning I pondered the box kick infatuation and A Smith’s execution.

Having found truth and reason to be slippery and elusive within that demanding situation, I’ve come to a New Theory. It strike me that in the absence of a clear and structured plan for attack, a policy of attacking defense has been adopted. The idea being that when you don’t know how to mount a structured attack that swings the opponent around and across the park through smart movement and positional play, you give them the ball and rely instead on pushing them back with it, perhaps capitalising on any potential mistakes or penalties where, if within kicking range you choose to go to a line out and offer them the chance of winning the ball back so you can remount your masterful attacking defense ploy again. Perhaps with a box kick inside their 22.

You think I’m crazy, right?

Yeah... well I’ve been watching Fozzie coached teams for a while now and I think I’m on it. I’ve touched his mind and it was slippery, like an eel. Smelly, too.

[NotNaki]

Box kicking, and kicking in general, made total sense in Wellington as in those conditions huge pressure could - and should - have been applied to that Wobbly back three. It wasn't accurate enough and the chases weren't good enough.

Eden Park was the perfect opportunity to keep the ball in hand and run them ragged. Nothing wrong with box kicking even in those circumstances if it's consistent and the chasers put enough pressure on the receivers. That didn't really happen.

[NotNaki]

One thing on the breakdown work, it was superlative from the ABs and we attacked nearly every breakdown harder than at any time since McGOAT was a lad. Imagine what Boshier could have done out there.

However Gardner allowed both teams plenty of leeway at the ruck. Neither team really bothered to secure their own weight, the "gate" he allowed was wider than Clogs' arse, and barely anyone even attempted to keep their feet when cleaning. Other refs won't be so lenient. In SR Aotearoa it would have been a whistlefest.

[Dan54]

I have one more question, when looking at this result there seems to be a general disregard for the Wallabies, are they not considered worthy of being a test team? I actually think it has the makings of being quite a good bloody team, plenty of good young players etc, so either some don't consider Rennie as good a coach as I think he is or perhaps we need to give ABs a bit of credit for a 20 point victory?
And I not saying they didn't have things to work on, but struck me they were pretty similar to AB teams of the last few years, go into game, stay wilt other team for most of game, and seem to do all of their scoring in a 15-20 minute period. It's not often we completely dominate any team for 50-60 minutes of a test.

I think there's a lack of acknowledgement that the NZ coaches did manage to readjust. Rennie showed with a rookie Oz team in the first Bled just how good a coach he is, getting them playing excellent pressure rugby in difficult conditions straight out of the blocks. The ABs rejigged, and yes, while there was some individual flashes that helped, fundamentally the Wallabies didn't get to enforce their game plan. It's a new coaching set up and both sides will be learning. Bring on the next test!

I agree that I thought Rennie did a good job with Wallabies, have seen a few posters (on Aus site) getting into him a little for changes he made to team, but don't wear it myself, generally new players were ok.

As an aside, I must admit to not being unhappy that is probably last test I will have have the Kearnsie/Kafe commentary team.

[Kiwias]

Yes, Ted. Yes.


While carrying out my morning ablutionary ritual this morning I pondered the box kick infatuation and A Smith’s execution.

Having found truth and reason to be slippery and elusive within that demanding situation, I’ve come to a New Theory. It strike me that in the absence of a clear and structured plan for attack, a policy of attacking defense has been adopted. The idea being that when you don’t know how to mount a structured attack that swings the opponent around and across the park through smart movement and positional play, you give them the ball and rely instead on pushing them back with it, perhaps capitalising on any potential mistakes or penalties where, if within kicking range you choose to go to a line out and offer them the chance of winning the ball back so you can remount your masterful attacking defense ploy again. Perhaps with a box kick inside their 22.

You think I’m crazy, right?

Yeah... well I’ve been watching Fozzie coached teams for a while now and I think I’m on it. I’ve touched his mind and it was slippery, like an eel. Smelly, too.

[Jb1981]

I'm curious as to why Beau Baz is so vocal about preferring 10.

He goes so well at the back with more space and time.

No way he has time to make those plays at 10.

I think we are almost guaranteed to see BB start at 10 in one of the tests in next month or so, as Fozzie and crew are going to want to try a few things I would think. That's not knocking Mounga, just if he gets injured imagine the screaming if BB wasn't up to speed at 10, same will happen with a few positions, I know it is great to get loosies midfield etc running in combos, you also need to be able to slip in replacements where needed.

For the sake of Mo’unga, but more specifically Barrett, being able to play in the best way while both on the field I really hope we don’t see Barrett getting a lot of time at 10. If there was an injury he’d be fine stepping back in but right now he’s got to learn to play the way he did on Sunday and not overplay coming in to first receiver. That won’t become natural if he is in and out of the 10 slot and we’ll be back to having two guys cramping each other’s style and neither performing at their best.

[Carter's Choice]

It's funny, I don't remember people demanding that Dan Carter be regularly rested and rotated at no.10, to give other players the opportunity to get match time. Why have we suddenly changed our attitude towards selection?

[mrbrownstone]

We're playing more than half as many tests as usual this year. There's absolutely no need for rest or rotation barring injury. Far too much of that in recent years.

[Not_Couch]

I'm curious as to why Beau Baz is so vocal about preferring 10.

He goes so well at the back with more space and time.

No way he has time to make those plays at 10.

I think we are almost guaranteed to see BB start at 10 in one of the tests in next month or so, as Fozzie and crew are going to want to try a few things I would think. That's not knocking Mounga, just if he gets injured imagine the screaming if BB wasn't up to speed at 10, same will happen with a few positions, I know it is great to get loosies midfield etc running in combos, you also need to be able to slip in replacements where needed.

For the sake of Mo’unga, but more specifically Barrett, being able to play in the best way while both on the field I really hope we don’t see Barrett getting a lot of time at 10. If there was an injury he’d be fine stepping back in but right now he’s got to learn to play the way he did on Sunday and not overplay coming in to first receiver. That won’t become natural if he is in and out of the 10 slot and we’ll be back to having two guys cramping each other’s style and neither performing at their best.

Be careful what you wish for, BB does not need to ply his trade in New Zealand anymore as his asking price is more than the Dan Carter deal!

BB might just say FU NZRU and go to easy Rugby earning major bank while drinking wine at a French Vineyard on Sundays. His prefered position is 10 not 15, he may end up being over this rotation policy, and we may lose him altogether for the RWC 2023.

[Jb1981]

I think we are almost guaranteed to see BB start at 10 in one of the tests in next month or so, as Fozzie and crew are going to want to try a few things I would think. That's not knocking Mounga, just if he gets injured imagine the screaming if BB wasn't up to speed at 10, same will happen with a few positions, I know it is great to get loosies midfield etc running in combos, you also need to be able to slip in replacements where needed.

For the sake of Mo’unga, but more specifically Barrett, being able to play in the best way while both on the field I really hope we don’t see Barrett getting a lot of time at 10. If there was an injury he’d be fine stepping back in but right now he’s got to learn to play the way he did on Sunday and not overplay coming in to first receiver. That won’t become natural if he is in and out of the 10 slot and we’ll be back to having two guys cramping each other’s style and neither performing at their best.

Be careful what you wish for, BB does not need to ply his trade in New Zealand anymore as his asking price is more than the Dan Carter deal!

BB might just say FU NZRU and go to easy Rugby earning major bank while drinking wine at a French Vineyard on Sundays. His prefered position is 10 not 15, he may end up being over this rotation policy, and we may lose him altogether for the RWC 2023.

If that was a risk, better he make the call sooner rather than later then. The worst thing that could happen is pandering to a player’s preference if it isn’t for the best of the team.