All Blacks 2025

[Guy Smiley]

BB is 33, DMac is 30 I think. Both are long in the tooth for a test 10 now let alone in 3 years.

So does that also rule out the return of 31-year old Richie Mo'unga, then?

Well, he’s not in the picture at all right now is he? His current contract runs until a year before the next cup. If he decides to come home and accept whatever grovelling pittance NZR scrape together then we’d have to look at his form then. His age works against him but working in his favour is that he’s probably, at his best a couple of levels of excellence better than the other two. Whether that helps him in a hypothetical return scenario in catching up to current plans or if he can regain his best form would be interesting to watch but I don’t like his chances myself.

It’s a distraction. The issue isn’t the availability of older guys, the issue is a perceived reluctance to blood new guys in.

[Guy Smiley]

After a tight first half, MAB explode in the second half and win by 53 -20 or so.

Frustrating in the first half hour to see Japan take their chances and play an enterprising style of attacking rugby while the MAB displayed all the clumsiness of a team assembled in a hurry and short of game time together. Some nice moves spoilt with rushed passes to space and dropped ball. The second half saw that drop away and some really flashy play reap rewards. Standouts for me in a backline that sparkled were Reihana and Zarn Sullivan. Both kicked well and used their size and speed with great effect. They were instrumental in the second half turnaround, guiding and leading the team. Really good to watch.

[Gumboot]

RMo's had two cracks at the RWC, but his supposed excellence didn't get the job done.

And it's common knowledge that Razor tried to have NZR change the rules to pick him from overseas, which suggests he's very much in the picture and will get picked as soon as he's available.

Meanwhile, I'm not that worried about the age of our incumbent 10s. Maybe they'll give Love a couple of starts this year, but I don't really see any other young'uns getting a look in. Maybe next year, but winning everything this year has to be the absolute priority. Retaining the Bled. Winning the Rugby Championship. Keeping our 31-year unbeaten record at Eden Park. Nailing an EOYT Grand Slam. Losing any more than one test, especially if we're still blowing HT leads, would be unacceptable.

[Hugo]

Just a random thought what with Fabian Holland making the All Blacks squad. I wonder how many other European born All Blacks there have been?

I recall John Gallagher from the late 80s (who was a Londoner of Irish background) and know of Dave Gallaher the famous Originals captain. I assume there must be a few others here and there?

Oh and of course Finlay Christie.

[Guy Smiley]

George Bower comes into the squad for Tamaiti Williams who needs surgery on a torn meniscus.

Not ideal when you consider he injured his knee in the quarterfinal game and played in the final a week later. Smacks of playing guys injured… I hope we’re not seeing that here and this is an oversight or missed diagnosis.

[Kiwias]

George Bower comes into the squad for Tamaiti Williams who needs surgery on a torn meniscus.

Not ideal when you consider he injured his knee in the quarterfinal game and played in the final a week later. Smacks of playing guys injured… I hope we’re not seeing that here and this is an oversight or missed diagnosis.

Definitely hope he recovers quickly and is fully fit for the RC

[Gumboot]

George Bower comes into the squad for Tamaiti Williams who needs surgery on a torn meniscus.

Bugger.

[Hugo]

Based on what was covered on the Breakdown people seem to be clamouring for Love to play. The audience favoured him at 10 over DMac and BB, make of that what you will.

To me it would make the most sense to start him at 15 move Jordan to 14 and have Rieko/Reece at 11. Then, if the All Blacks have a healthy lead substitute off the 10 move Love there and either move Jordan back to fullback or bring on whoever is on the bench between DMac or Beaudy.

Basically I think the All Blacks have the personnel to be able to give Love plenty of playing time in the France series without taking big risks and throwing him in the deep end by starting him at 10.

[Hugo]

My predicted XV - not what I would necessarily pick but who I think will start

1 - ?
2 - Taylor
3 - Newell
4 - Barrett
5 - Vaa'i
6 - Finau
7 - Savea
8 - Lio Willie
9 - Roigard
10 - Beaudy
11 - Rieko
12 - Jordie
13 - Proctor
14 - Reece
15 - Jordan

[Firewater]

Based on what was covered on the Breakdown people seem to be clamouring for Love to play. The audience favoured him at 10 over DMac and BB, make of that what you will.

To me it would make the most sense to start him at 15 move Jordan to 14 and have Rieko/Reece at 11. Then, if the All Blacks have a healthy lead substitute off the 10 move Love there and either move Jordan back to fullback or bring on whoever is on the bench between DMac or Beaudy.

Basically I think the All Blacks have the personnel to be able to give Love plenty of playing time in the France series without taking big risks and throwing him in the deep end by starting him at 10.

Love looked the goods at 10 for the Canes, and they were winning, until their ******** coach moved him back to FB to fit in the limited Brett Cameron. Then the first big match with Cameron at first they lost

Sahme but I would still like to see Love given game time at first for a test. DMac and Barrett are both a bit limited for test rugby. As is Rieko at center. Hopefully Robertson will try toher options in both positions

[Firewater]

My predicted XV - not what I would necessarily pick but who I think will start

1 - ?
2 - Taylor
3 - Newell
4 - Barrett
5 - Vaa'i
6 - Finau
7 - Savea
8 - Lio Willie
9 - Roigard
10 - Beaudy
11 - Rieko
12 - Jordie
13 - Proctor
14 - Reece
15 - Jordan

Looks ok except for Reece. It won't happen but I would prefer Love at first, JordAN and Rieko on the wIngs and DMac or Barrett at FB

[Kiwias]

Based on what was covered on the Breakdown people seem to be clamouring for Love to play. The audience favoured him at 10 over DMac and BB, make of that what you will.

To me it would make the most sense to start him at 15 move Jordan to 14 and have Rieko/Reece at 11. Then, if the All Blacks have a healthy lead substitute off the 10 move Love there and either move Jordan back to fullback or bring on whoever is on the bench between DMac or Beaudy.

Basically I think the All Blacks have the personnel to be able to give Love plenty of playing time in the France series without taking big risks and throwing him in the deep end by starting him at 10.

I understand why people talk about having Jordan at 14 but this is just reviving a bad habit of playing people out of their best position purely to get someone else in the team. Remember having Cullen at centre and Jeff Wilson at 15, anyone? It still triggers nightmares for me.

I would have Love as the reserve 10 and DMac out of the match 23. Barrett starting at 10 can easily move to 15 if Jordan is injured, with Love coming into his best and natural position.

[Kiwias]

My predicted XV - not what I would necessarily pick but who I think will start

1 - de Groot
2 - Taylor
3 - Newell
4 - Barrett
5 - Vaa'i
6 - Finau
7 - Savea
8 - Lio Willie
9 - Roigard
10 - Beaudy
11 - Rieko
12 - Jordie
13 - Proctor
14 - Reece
15 - Jordan

I like this team. And on the bench I would have Taukei'aho, Bower, Lomax, Holland, Kirifi, Ratima, Love, Tupaea.

[Guy Smiley]

Based on what was covered on the Breakdown people seem to be clamouring for Love to play. The audience favoured him at 10 over DMac and BB, make of that what you will.

To me it would make the most sense to start him at 15 move Jordan to 14 and have Rieko/Reece at 11. Then, if the All Blacks have a healthy lead substitute off the 10 move Love there and either move Jordan back to fullback or bring on whoever is on the bench between DMac or Beaudy.

Basically I think the All Blacks have the personnel to be able to give Love plenty of playing time in the France series without taking big risks and throwing him in the deep end by starting him at 10.

I understand why people talk about having Jordan at 14 but this is just reviving a bad habit of playing people out of their best position purely to get someone else in the team. Remember having Cullen at centre and Jeff Wilson at 15, anyone? It still triggers nightmares for me.

I would have Love as the reserve 10 and DMac out of the match 23. Barrett starting at 10 can easily move to 15 if Jordan is injured, with Love coming into his best and natural position.

Look, I know it's verging on sacrilegious to Kiwi rugby fans to go here... but it's time to start moving away from the BB dependence. I'd have him on the bench. I've no big problem playing Jordan at 14 IF that means Love at 15, with the aim of shifting him to 10 either later in the game or switching him in and out during. BB's best position was always coming off the bench as perhaps THE original impact player. I'd have him there as a multi use weapon to cover anything that might happen. I think talk of Love starting at 10 is premature for now... I have faith he's got the goods but he deserves to be eased in and 15 is the best spot to do that from. We lose nothing putting Jordan at 14 in the short term.

What a luxury to have.

[Kiwias]

Look, I know it's verging on sacrilegious to Kiwi rugby fans to go here... but it's time to start moving away from the BB dependence. I'd have him on the bench. I've no big problem playing Jordan at 14 IF that means Love at 15, with the aim of shifting him to 10 either later in the game or switching him in and out during. BB's best position was always coming off the bench as perhaps THE original impact player. I'd have him there as a multi use weapon to cover anything that might happen. I think talk of Love starting at 10 is premature for now... I have faith he's got the goods but he deserves to be eased in and 15 is the best spot to do that from. We lose nothing putting Jordan at 14 in the short term.

What a luxury to have.

I have BB as 10 because at the moment it is a straight choice between him and DMac. I totally agree that we need to make the break from BB (and DMac) at 10 but based on what we saw in the SR final, it is clear that DMac can be effectively eliminated from the match with the right tactics. If Penny could do it, you know that the French, Boks, Aussies, and Pumas will do the same. I would hope that come the northern tour, Love will have almost secured the 10 starting spot.

[Hugo]

Look, I know it's verging on sacrilegious to Kiwi rugby fans to go here... but it's time to start moving away from the BB dependence. I'd have him on the bench. I've no big problem playing Jordan at 14 IF that means Love at 15, with the aim of shifting him to 10 either later in the game or switching him in and out during. BB's best position was always coming off the bench as perhaps THE original impact player. I'd have him there as a multi use weapon to cover anything that might happen. I think talk of Love starting at 10 is premature for now... I have faith he's got the goods but he deserves to be eased in and 15 is the best spot to do that from. We lose nothing putting Jordan at 14 in the short term.

What a luxury to have.

I have BB as 10 because at the moment it is a straight choice between him and DMac. I totally agree that we need to make the break from BB (and DMac) at 10 but based on what we saw in the SR final, it is clear that DMac can be effectively eliminated from the match with the right tactics. If Penny could do it, you know that the French, Boks, Aussies, and Pumas will do the same. I would hope that come the northern tour, Love will have almost secured the 10 starting spot.

Kiwias, do you think there is value in having Dmac on the bench to be introduced in the second half?

I know he had two tough games in the finals (Blues and Crusaders) and based on that and his season overall I think he's best served as a fullback where his is not the primary playmaking option. He fares best in counter attacking situations combining well with the back 3 when play is less structured.

He also tends to be a second half player as were the Chiefs a second half team.

[Guy Smiley]

The Waratahs shut DMac down first this year.

The blueprint is open knowledge now.

I’d still go with him over BB but I’m over BB and have never rated him as highly as a lot of others do as a pivot or pkaymaker.

I’d have him start but dropping back for Love to come up.

[Hugo]

The Waratahs shut DMac down first this year.

The blueprint is open knowledge now.

I’d still go with him over BB but I’m over BB and have never rated him as highly as a lot of others do as a pivot or pkaymaker.

I’d have him start but dropping back for Love to come up.

I'm with you 100% on Love starting at FB - let him get some touches, make some kicks and find a rhythm before moving him to 10. It just relieves a lot of pressure on him and the coaches imo. If he starts at 10 and plays poorly his confidence might falter them it puts Robertson in a position to have to sub or drop him. At fullback he will be able to ease himself into the game.

[Kiwias]

Kiwias, do you think there is value in having Dmac on the bench to be introduced in the second half?

I know he had two tough games in the finals (Blues and Crusaders) and based on that and his season overall I think he's best served as a fullback where his is not the primary playmaking option. He fares best in counter attacking situations combining well with the back 3 when play is less structured.

He also tends to be a second half player as were the Chiefs a second half team.

I don't want a situation where we have both BB and DMac in the 23, so if BB starts (not even close to my first choice first five in NZ but ahead of DMac IMHO), then Love is on the bench. If Razor picks DMac at 10, then BB should not be in the 23.

[Kiwias]

The Waratahs shut DMac down first this year.

The blueprint is open knowledge now.

I’d still go with him over BB but I’m over BB and have never rated him as highly as a lot of others do as a pivot or pkaymaker.

I’d have him start but dropping back for Love to come up.

It really comes down to which of DMac and BB starts. I'm pretty much over both of them and agree with your assessment of BB (pretty much always have)

[Hugo]

Kiwias, do you think there is value in having Dmac on the bench to be introduced in the second half?

I know he had two tough games in the finals (Blues and Crusaders) and based on that and his season overall I think he's best served as a fullback where his is not the primary playmaking option. He fares best in counter attacking situations combining well with the back 3 when play is less structured.

He also tends to be a second half player as were the Chiefs a second half team.

I don't want a situation where we have both BB and DMac in the 23, so if BB starts (not even close to my first choice first five in NZ but ahead of DMac IMHO), then Love is on the bench. If Razor picks DMac at 10, then BB should not be in the 23.

I see your point. There is a certain level of redundancy in having both DMac and BB in the 23. It's like an all or nothing proposition, they start or they are not in the matchday squad.

I think it's Razors biggest selection headache which the panel on the Breakdown all admitted when they said they were torn between who to start.

[Sandstorm]

I see your point. There is a certain level of redundancy in having both DMac and BB in the 23. It's like an all or nothing proposition, they start or they are not in the matchday squad.

I think it's Razors biggest selection headache which the panel on the Breakdown all admitted when they said they were torn between who to start.

Hah! Suck it Kiwis! Now you know what's it like to not have the World's Best 10 turning up for every Test match in your starting 22.

Enjoy the same stomach cramps the rest of us get every Saturday for a bit.

[convoluted]

So, ... the vexed matter of jersey colour.
Has anyone heard anything yet? I watched a bit of the French under-20 yesterday morning and I swear their national jersey has morphed even deeper into three further shades of dark blue to now be almost black. It featured the tricolor as both an epaulette and a sleeve ornament. Rather striking, but ...

Forever and ever we only clashed with Scotland's dark blue, and the etiquette was always that the home team would switch to white. Then the dirty French sabotaged us into grey for the 2007 World Cup to dire consequences.

I'd hate for Fabian Holland to have to debut in white. He spent his childhood in the Netherlands with the impossible fantasy of running onto the field clad in all black.

[Dan54]

Kiwias, do you think there is value in having Dmac on the bench to be introduced in the second half?

I know he had two tough games in the finals (Blues and Crusaders) and based on that and his season overall I think he's best served as a fullback where his is not the primary playmaking option. He fares best in counter attacking situations combining well with the back 3 when play is less structured.

He also tends to be a second half player as were the Chiefs a second half team.

I don't want a situation where we have both BB and DMac in the 23, so if BB starts (not even close to my first choice first five in NZ but ahead of DMac IMHO), then Love is on the bench. If Razor picks DMac at 10, then BB should not be in the 23.

I see your point. There is a certain level of redundancy in having both DMac and BB in the 23. It's like an all or nothing proposition, they start or they are not in the matchday squad.

I think it's Razors biggest selection headache which the panel on the Breakdown all admitted when they said they were torn between who to start.

Not sure it a headache. Recall Razor saying he would be keen on having a real running game under the roof, when he was asked who was favourite to start at 10. Hinted they were looking at horses for course I thought.

[Guy Smiley]

More talk. More speculation. Two guys having a chat.

[Gumboot]

Has anyone read Ian Foster's book? If so, are there any real insights, or is it all just a massive woe-is-me whinge fest?

I haven't read it and don't know anyone who has... or even anyone who wants to.

The memories of the Fozzie era are still far too raw and painful, tbh.

[Enzedder]

Oh hell yes, right after I pull the red hot pokers out of my eyes.

You pricks are lucky - I had to suffer through 12 years of the bastard before NZR grabbed him because of his superior coaching skillz.

[Guy Smiley]

It's all finished now lads...

[Gumboot]

Anyone?

No.2 on the non-fiction bestseller list, so presumably someone's reading it...

[Hugo]

More talk. More speculation. Two guys having a chat.

Good point made on Holland and Tava - absolute no brainer to give them their debuts in Dunedin off the bench. They will be so pumped up as will the crowd.

[Kiwias]

More talk. More speculation. Two guys having a chat.

Good point made on Holland and Tava - absolute no brainer to give them their debuts in Dunedin off the bench. They will be so pumped up as will the crowd.

Absolutely this!!

[Dan54]

Has anyone read Ian Foster's book? If so, are there any real insights, or is it all just a massive woe-is-me whinge fest?

I haven't read it and don't know anyone who has... or even anyone who wants to.

The memories of the Fozzie era are still far too raw and painful, tbh.

I haven't as yet, but neither have I read Sam Whitelocks etc. Will probably have a peek at both at some stage (when they come into local library). Think the last rugby book I read was Shag Hansen's.

[Hugo]

Has anyone read Ian Foster's book? If so, are there any real insights, or is it all just a massive woe-is-me whinge fest?

I haven't read it and don't know anyone who has... or even anyone who wants to.

The memories of the Fozzie era are still far too raw and painful, tbh.

I haven't as yet, but neither have I read Sam Whitelocks etc. Will probably have a peek at both at some stage (when they come into local library). Think the last rugby book I read was Shag Hansen's.

I've not read Fosters either. Currently working on Kieran Reads - really reminded of what an incredible season the 2011 Crusaders had. To come within a whisker of winning Super rugby without playing a home game all season long and having their homes if not destroyed, then badly damaged. The city in turmoil. Guy brought this up the other day and reading Reads account of it brought it home.

[Grandpa]

Just a random thought what with Fabian Holland making the All Blacks squad. I wonder how many other European born All Blacks there have been?

I recall John Gallagher from the late 80s (who was a Londoner of Irish background) and know of Dave Gallaher the famous Originals captain. I assume there must be a few others here and there?

Oh and of course Finlay Christie.

Jamie Salmon?

[Grandpa]

With Reece and Clarke on the wings there is no pace.... so I wouldn't mind Jordan back on the wing... and Love at fullback (if not at 10)

Unfortunately in the first test I think they'll play safe...

15 Jordan
14 Reece
13 Rieko
12 Jordie
11 Clarke
10 BB
9 Roigard
8 Ardie
7 Kirifi
6 Finau
5 S Barrett
4 Vaii
3 Lomax
2 Taylor
1 De Groot

[Gumboot]

Just a random thought what with Fabian Holland making the All Blacks squad. I wonder how many other European born All Blacks there have been?

I recall John Gallagher from the late 80s (who was a Londoner of Irish background) and know of Dave Gallaher the famous Originals captain. I assume there must be a few others here and there?

Oh and of course Finlay Christie.

Jamie Salmon?

My first thought too, Grandpa. Born in the then-British colony of Hong Kong... not sure if that counts?

[Grandpa]

Just a random thought what with Fabian Holland making the All Blacks squad. I wonder how many other European born All Blacks there have been?

I recall John Gallagher from the late 80s (who was a Londoner of Irish background) and know of Dave Gallaher the famous Originals captain. I assume there must be a few others here and there?

Oh and of course Finlay Christie.

Jamie Salmon?

My first thought too, Grandpa. Born in the then-British colony of Hong Kong... not sure if that counts?

Oh it counts... especially as he played for England too!

[Gumboot]

Oh it counts... especially as he played for England too!

[Gumboot]

Seems a lot of pundits are keen on Kirifi starting, but it wouldn't be my preference tbh. Assuming that Razor & co were considering Sititi at 8 before he got injured, I hope they stick with the model of starting Finau and Ardie on the flanks with a "natural" no.8.

Hope they go with...

1. de Groot, 2. Taylor, 3. Newell, 4. Scooter (c), 5. Vaa'i, 6. Finau, 7. Savea, 8. Lio-Willie
9. Roigard, 10. Beauden, 11. Ioane, 12. Jordie, 13. Proctor, 14. Narawa, 15. Jordan
16. Taulei'aho, 17. Norris, 18. Lomax, 19. Fab Holland, 20. Kirifi, 21. Hotham, 22. Tupaea/Tavatavanawai 23. McKenzie

Can't really see them not giving Tavatavanawai a Dunedin debut, tbh. Love to get his chance later in the series.

How good would it be to bring on two prime Aussie poaches at 17 & 18? Go you good things!!

[Dan54]

Has anyone read Ian Foster's book? If so, are there any real insights, or is it all just a massive woe-is-me whinge fest?

I haven't read it and don't know anyone who has... or even anyone who wants to.

The memories of the Fozzie era are still far too raw and painful, tbh.

I haven't as yet, but neither have I read Sam Whitelocks etc. Will probably have a peek at both at some stage (when they come into local library). Think the last rugby book I read was Shag Hansen's.

I've not read Fosters either. Currently working on Kieran Reads - really reminded of what an incredible season the 2011 Crusaders had. To come within a whisker of winning Super rugby without playing a home game all season long and having their homes if not destroyed, then badly damaged. The city in turmoil. Guy brought this up the other day and reading Reads account of it brought it home.

I think I may of read Ruby Tui's book too , as it was given to me for xmas one year. Think why I enjoyed that ok (same as Hansens) etc , they not just about their playing careers, and more about things like Christchurch after the quake. I have seen there players on field, I prfer to know about the periphals of what they thought etc. One of first books I enjoyed was Graham Mourie, who kind of talked a lot about other players etc as what they were like to tour with.