The Scottish Politics Thread

[dpedin]

Come on man, it’s more than just looking bad. It’s different policy for different parts of the country, and it chimes with the perceived wisdom that the Tories only care about The City.

It is bad. It doesn’t just look it.

Ok lets have a single UK covid policy then regarding lockdowns.

Everyone going off in their own direction policy/lockdown wise really has not worked particularity as furloughing people requires action only the national government and central bank can perform.

It would appear that even the Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party doesn't agree with you on this

We started off with a 4 countries approach but the failure of Blonde Bumblecunt and his Brexit Ultras made it impossible for the devolved nations to remain aligned to their failing approach to covid19. They have been spectacularly bad in managing this pandemic, expecting Wales, NI and Scotland to stay hooked to a failed pandemic response is just a nonsense. Each of the devolved countries have a responsibility for their own pop health and in the absence of the UK Gov doing the right thing have had to take their own actions to manage the situation.

[dpedin]

I take your point about not all areas needing strict lock-down (the same is true in England and Wales) - I was responding (perhaps a little flippantly) to this:

England eventually adopt the same approach as Wales, NI and Scotland and go for a fire break lock down

WRT furlough - my head is in my hands at how bad this government is at handing easy PR wins to the nationalists at times. Furlough is possible because of the ability of the BoE to essentially print money and its the kind of fiscal intervention that would be impossible if Scotland had voted 'Yes' in 2014 or at some point in the future. Devolution is not currently setup to handle the interaction between public health decisions (devolved) and massive fiscal interventions (reserved)..its mess that requires consideration of from HMG and genuine good faith communications from both sides to work properly.

And the point I was making was that if they had got their regional response in place properly and quicker then England wouldn't need a whole country firebreak either. However delaying then having public squabbles with Manchester about £5m for over a week and not implementing a proper furlough scheme for the North meant that they lost control of both the virus and the country! If they had acted quicker and did it properly then England could also have had a successful regional approach as in Scotland. For the sake of £5m it is now going to cost us all billions more! They fecked up big style and now everyone in England ... and Scotland, NI and Wales ... pays the price. It is not being smug, it is just pointing out how fecking useless those twats in UK Gov are!

[Dogbert]

I see now that the Scottish Secretary of State is also backing the current Scottish Tiered approach - Perhaps he and Douglas Ross can have a chat withe HMT to ensure that Furlough support is there if required - If they can't do that , what are they they for ?

I also appreciate that HMT have the Financial levers to facilitate Furlough , but this is no begging bowl - In the end this will need to be repaid , and not just by England , but the whole of the UK

As burden of repayment will fall on all of the UK , that being the case , maybe the each devolved Parliament should have at least some say in when it can be applied , and as Douglas Ross himself said , not from some Press briefing

[Bimbowomxn]

However delaying then having public squabbles with Manchester about £5m for over a week and not implementing a proper furlough scheme for the North meant that they lost control of both the virus and the country!

You can’t really believe that 3-4 days of a tier level in Manchester cost that much virus wise.

No one thinks the Tories have been any good , but this is nonsense.

[tc27]

Again I think people are being premature in calling the regional tiers a success in Scotland - this virus has far from run its course and a vaccine is still far off.

Surely the lesson from the summer when Sturgeon was calming the virus could be eliminated and Devi Sridhar was taking a victory lap in the papers is that claiming success on recorded cases is a mistake because (particularly in Scotland) the testing rate is too low. Ultimately at the end of September the excess death rate was only marginally different - for however favourably Sturgeon looks compared to the 'Blonde Bumblecunt' she has not actually done much better at stopping people dying.

Finally I am not going defend the awful way the government has extended furlough without considering how it looks in devolved parts of the UK - they are absolutely clueless and an absolute gift to the nationalists in the way they do these things.

[tc27]

Come on man, it’s more than just looking bad. It’s different policy for different parts of the country, and it chimes with the perceived wisdom that the Tories only care about The City.

It is bad. It doesn’t just look it.

Ok lets have a single UK covid policy then regarding lockdowns.

Everyone going off in their own direction policy/lockdown wise really has not worked particularity as furloughing people requires action only the national government and central bank can perform.

It would appear that even the Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party doesn't agree with you on this

Not sure that is true - public health is devolved so any other approach to the current one is academic.

[Northern Lights]

Trying to find out what is going on with the SG does seem to be a challenge, there is plenty going on with Salmond enquiry with obstruction and now this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scot ... -j7np5v5bk

Coronavirus in Scotland: Care homes boss offers to pay for Nicola Sturgeon Freedom of Information data
Mike Wade

Monday November 02 2020, 12.01am, The Times

A Scottish government official said Nicola Sturgeon had made clear that she was “not party to individual clinical decisions taken about the discharge of patients from hospital.”

A care home group owner has offered to cover the costs of uncovering the details of when Nicola Sturgeon knew about Covid-19 positive patients being discharged to nursing homes.

A formal request for the specific information was made under freedom of information laws by Neil Findlay, the Labour MSP. Scottish government officials rejected the demand, saying that collating the material would cost £1,320, more than the official £600 cap for such requests.

Robert Kilgour, executive chairman of Renaissance Care, which has 15 homes in Scotland, has offered to foot the bill.

“Given what the social care sector has been through, I’m amazed that this seems to be necessary, but if this is the price that must be paid to get proper answers, then I am more than willing to write a cheque,” Mr Kilgour said. “Grieving friends and relatives across Scotland need the truth.”

A Scottish government official said the first minister had made clear that she was “not party to individual clinical decisions taken about the discharge of patients from hospital.”

Age Scotland meanwhile has joined bereaved families, care workers and human rights organisations to demand an investigation into the deaths of over 2,000 care home residents in the first wave.

They urged Ms Sturgeon to order a review to report within weeks in an attempt to learn lessons as a second wave of Covid-19 cases looms. They spoke out after the publication of a report into the discharge of dozens of Covid-19 positive patients from hospital into homes after health boards were ordered to clear NHS beds in the weeks before and after lockdown in March.

On Wednesday MSPs will be asked to vote on whether to launch an investigation as the Scottish Conservatives call for a judge-led inquiry.

Public Health Scotland confirmed that 113 patients with Covid-19 were moved, with 52 transferred within a week of a positive diagnosis, 38 within eight to 14 days. The report also said 3,061 untested patients were transferred between March 1 and May 31, with some moved to care homes after a policy change.

The Scottish government said: “The necessary full public inquiry will take place when the time for that is right — once we have got the country through the next stage of the pandemic.

“In the meantime, as the first minister made clear, we will continue to learn and to apply lessons in care homes so that we continue to take all possible steps to keep our care homes safe.”

Seems churlish to not release something as important as the care homes fiasco over £1,320 with the vast sums being chucked about in this pandemic and the Salmond trial costing £500k.

[Dogbert]

Ok lets have a single UK covid policy then regarding lockdowns.

Everyone going off in their own direction policy/lockdown wise really has not worked particularity as furloughing people requires action only the national government and central bank can perform.

It would appear that even the Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party doesn't agree with you on this

Not sure that is true - public health is devolved so any other approach to the current one is academic.

Well its is true

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/ne ... -covid-19/

As well as Andrew Jack

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -englands/

Public Health is of course devolved , but policy can only be settled if the funding is in place - and as you keep pointing out is only at the behest of HMT

Do you still believe that Scotland should go into full lockdown ?

[tc27]

It would appear that even the Leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party doesn't agree with you on this

Not sure that is true - public health is devolved so any other approach to the current one is academic.

Well its is true

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/ne ... -covid-19/

As well as Andrew Jack

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -englands/

Public Health is of course devolved , but policy can only be settled if the funding is in place - and as you keep pointing out is only at the behest of HMT

Do you still believe that Scotland should go into full lockdown ?

I do not think anything Ross or Jack said indicates they are in principal against a UK wide policy for dealing with pandemics even if practically and politically we are well past that being viable.

Public health is devolved but I think a response to a pandemic might be different enough that a strict adherence to the dividing lines of devolution becomes problematic - at the very least the government should have a mechanism for devolved admins to implement furlough in a pre agreed way - I do concede the current mess regarding furlough is mostly down to the UK government has handled things

No problem as such with the current tiers in Scotland (its ridiculous to lock down the parts of Scotland that are basically deserted the same way as the central belt). - I would only add that the level three lockdown which most of the urban Scottish population will be under from tonight is only slightly less restrictive than the lockdown in other parts of the UK.

Again all summer we heard about how much better the SG was doing at handling the pandemic (through minor digressions in policy), yet in the end it turned out not to be the case. I think there is a strong chance of this happening again. We will see.

[Biffer]

Not sure that is true - public health is devolved so any other approach to the current one is academic.

Well its is true

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/ne ... -covid-19/

As well as Andrew Jack

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -englands/

Public Health is of course devolved , but policy can only be settled if the funding is in place - and as you keep pointing out is only at the behest of HMT

Do you still believe that Scotland should go into full lockdown ?

I do not think anything Ross or Jack said indicates they are in principal against a UK wide policy for dealing with pandemics even if practically and politically we are well past that being viable.

Public health is devolved but I think a response to a pandemic might be different enough that a strict adherence to the dividing lines of devolution becomes problematic - at the very least the government should have a mechanism for devolved admins to implement furlough in a pre agreed way - I do concede the current mess regarding furlough is mostly down to the UK government has handled things

No problem as such with the current tiers in Scotland (its ridiculous to lock down the parts of Scotland that are basically deserted the same way as the central belt). - I would only add that the level three lockdown which most of the urban Scottish population will be under from tonight is only slightly less restrictive than the lockdown in other parts of the UK.

Again all summer we heard about how much better the SG was doing at handling the pandemic (through minor digressions in policy), yet in the end it turned out not to be the case. I think there is a strong chance of this happening again. We will see.

While we are in the union, the only comparison that's ever going to be made is with England. It doesn't matter how any other country is doing, the comparison with England will be the only one anyone really pays any attention to. Obviously that's not a good thing, but it's pretty much unavoidable on this or any other topic.

[Northern Lights]

This is pretty much make or break for me, if the treasury do not allow flexibility in the furlough scheme then I cant and i dont see how anyone else can defend the current set-up. I still believe we are in for an almighty arse fucking if we were to go for Indy but in times like these if HMG cant pull their head out of their arses and see that the pandemic runs at a different beat and they need to be flexible to this then it is a lost cause.

The benfit of the Union is to help us when we need it, not to throw us to the wolves when we are in the shit or force us into a lockdown because other parts of the country are in the shit.

[dpedin]

This is pretty much make or break for me, if the treasury do not allow flexibility in the furlough scheme then I cant and i dont see how anyone else can defend the current set-up. I still believe we are in for an almighty arse fucking if we were to go for Indy but in times like these if HMG cant pull their head out of their arses and see that the pandemic runs at a different beat and they need to be flexible to this then it is a lost cause.

The benfit of the Union is to help us when we need it, not to throw us to the wolves when we are in the shit or force us into a lockdown because other parts of the country are in the shit.

Agreed

[dpedin]

Not sure that is true - public health is devolved so any other approach to the current one is academic.

Well its is true

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/ne ... -covid-19/

As well as Andrew Jack

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -englands/

Public Health is of course devolved , but policy can only be settled if the funding is in place - and as you keep pointing out is only at the behest of HMT

Do you still believe that Scotland should go into full lockdown ?

I do not think anything Ross or Jack said indicates they are in principal against a UK wide policy for dealing with pandemics even if practically and politically we are well past that being viable.

Public health is devolved but I think a response to a pandemic might be different enough that a strict adherence to the dividing lines of devolution becomes problematic - at the very least the government should have a mechanism for devolved admins to implement furlough in a pre agreed way - I do concede the current mess regarding furlough is mostly down to the UK government has handled things

No problem as such with the current tiers in Scotland (its ridiculous to lock down the parts of Scotland that are basically deserted the same way as the central belt). - I would only add that the level three lockdown which most of the urban Scottish population will be under from tonight is only slightly less restrictive than the lockdown in other parts of the UK.

Again all summer we heard about how much better the SG was doing at handling the pandemic (through minor digressions in policy), yet in the end it turned out not to be the case. I think there is a strong chance of this happening again. We will see.

I suggest that you look at the infections per 100,00 and see if there is a difference. The tier system in Scotland is a reflection of the fact that we have from the beginning we have invested in local councils, Health Boards and local TaP systems to ensure there were local regional based systems in place to manage the pandemic. It makes sense to focus our lock down approach on this level. I am not sure the centralised approach adopted in England is robust enough to support the local levels approach? I think we all agree that the furlough system has to be aligned to local devolved administration and English regions responses. I seem to remember the Mayor of Manchester making exactly this point!

[clydecloggie]

This is pretty much make or break for me, if the treasury do not allow flexibility in the furlough scheme then I cant and i dont see how anyone else can defend the current set-up. I still believe we are in for an almighty arse fucking if we were to go for Indy but in times like these if HMG cant pull their head out of their arses and see that the pandemic runs at a different beat and they need to be flexible to this then it is a lost cause.

The benfit of the Union is to help us when we need it, not to throw us to the wolves when we are in the shit or force us into a lockdown because other parts of the country are in the shit.

I agree with all of that NL but it is a remarkable sentiment coming from one of the most vocal defenders of the Union on this Board, and testament to how fucked up everything has become. You'd be very welcome on the dark (blue) side, obviously, if it ever happens.

[Deveron Boy]

This is pretty much make or break for me, if the treasury do not allow flexibility in the furlough scheme then I cant and i dont see how anyone else can defend the current set-up. I still believe we are in for an almighty arse fucking if we were to go for Indy but in times like these if HMG cant pull their head out of their arses and see that the pandemic runs at a different beat and they need to be flexible to this then it is a lost cause.

The benfit of the Union is to help us when we need it, not to throw us to the wolves when we are in the shit or force us into a lockdown because other parts of the country are in the shit.

Agreed

+1

[Northern Lights]

This is pretty much make or break for me, if the treasury do not allow flexibility in the furlough scheme then I cant and i dont see how anyone else can defend the current set-up. I still believe we are in for an almighty arse fucking if we were to go for Indy but in times like these if HMG cant pull their head out of their arses and see that the pandemic runs at a different beat and they need to be flexible to this then it is a lost cause.

The benfit of the Union is to help us when we need it, not to throw us to the wolves when we are in the shit or force us into a lockdown because other parts of the country are in the shit.

I agree with all of that NL but it is a remarkable sentiment coming from one of the most vocal defenders of the Union on this Board, and testament to how fucked up everything has become. You'd be very welcome on the dark (blue) side, obviously, if it ever happens.

I am now going to campaign for the people's republic of Grampian or Pictland, I'm not sure of the branding yet!

I'm also a bit fucked off we are in tier 2 up here when on the scorecard we should be tier 1 (we have 3 scores of zero and 2 scores of one), whilst Lanarkshire should be in 4.

I also think the tiering should be from 1-5 rather than 0-4, which apart from it being daft to start at zero, it also gives the opportunity to then have zero let's get back to living.

[Slick]

This is pretty much make or break for me, if the treasury do not allow flexibility in the furlough scheme then I cant and i dont see how anyone else can defend the current set-up. I still believe we are in for an almighty arse fucking if we were to go for Indy but in times like these if HMG cant pull their head out of their arses and see that the pandemic runs at a different beat and they need to be flexible to this then it is a lost cause.

The benfit of the Union is to help us when we need it, not to throw us to the wolves when we are in the shit or force us into a lockdown because other parts of the country are in the shit.

Funnily enough I went for a clear the heid walk this afternoon and came to a very similar conclusion. Brexit, this and England fans still thinking Jonny May is world class has done it for me. I think.

I'll be going Green though.

[clydecloggie]

Right. Close the thread, I think we’re unanimous now.

[Slick]

Right. Close the thread, I think we’re unanimous now.

Bit premature though, we need a pile on tc27.

Whose with me, comrades!

[Jock42]

Are we fuck

[Biffer]

This is pretty much make or break for me, if the treasury do not allow flexibility in the furlough scheme then I cant and i dont see how anyone else can defend the current set-up. I still believe we are in for an almighty arse fucking if we were to go for Indy but in times like these if HMG cant pull their head out of their arses and see that the pandemic runs at a different beat and they need to be flexible to this then it is a lost cause.

The benfit of the Union is to help us when we need it, not to throw us to the wolves when we are in the shit or force us into a lockdown because other parts of the country are in the shit.

Funnily enough I went for a clear the heid walk this afternoon and came to a very similar conclusion. Brexit, this and England fans still thinking Jonny May is world class has done it for me. I think.

I'll be going Green though.

That's where my loyalties lie

[Biffer]

This is pretty much make or break for me, if the treasury do not allow flexibility in the furlough scheme then I cant and i dont see how anyone else can defend the current set-up. I still believe we are in for an almighty arse fucking if we were to go for Indy but in times like these if HMG cant pull their head out of their arses and see that the pandemic runs at a different beat and they need to be flexible to this then it is a lost cause.

The benfit of the Union is to help us when we need it, not to throw us to the wolves when we are in the shit or force us into a lockdown because other parts of the country are in the shit.

I agree with all of that NL but it is a remarkable sentiment coming from one of the most vocal defenders of the Union on this Board, and testament to how fucked up everything has become. You'd be very welcome on the dark (blue) side, obviously, if it ever happens.

All welcome, as ever.

And I know the republic of Grampian thing was a bit tongue in cheek, but I view it as incredibly important that we devolve powe4r out from the central belt, otherwise we'll just end up in the same situation. Proper local administration and consideration for the Islands, the Borders, The Highlands, Orkney and Shetland etc. is an absolute necessity in however we set the country up.

[tc27]

Bit hard for me because I have no idea why the PM doesn't just say furlough will be available across the whole UK as long as needed...billions of pounds in direct and consequential aid going to Scotland that otherwise would not be available but for the want of just making a fairly straight forward statement he hands a massive PR coup for the nationalists.

Also its not the South of England that is causing the problem in terms of cases and caused the lockdown in England - not sure why people are saying this (Northerners seen as more virtouts or something).


PS Jonny May is world class - his single handed tries vs France when the rest of the team was getting pumped scraped England the championship.

[tc27]

There we go.

For the sake of giving it to a Scottish Tory MP instead of saying it hours ago he's turned NL into a raging Nat

[Northern Lights]

This is pretty much make or break for me, if the treasury do not allow flexibility in the furlough scheme then I cant and i dont see how anyone else can defend the current set-up. I still believe we are in for an almighty arse fucking if we were to go for Indy but in times like these if HMG cant pull their head out of their arses and see that the pandemic runs at a different beat and they need to be flexible to this then it is a lost cause.

The benfit of the Union is to help us when we need it, not to throw us to the wolves when we are in the shit or force us into a lockdown because other parts of the country are in the shit.

Funnily enough I went for a clear the heid walk this afternoon and came to a very similar conclusion. Brexit, this and England fans still thinking Jonny May is world class has done it for me. I think.

I'll be going Green though.

It’s more that Boris and chums are fucking useless, clueless and just generally less in every aspect.

I know that he and they are temporary but we need the tories to sort their shite out right now, politics aside this is the biggest crisis the country has faced since the financial crisis in ‘08 and they are proving to be miles from what is required. We can get away with useless tits when things are bumbling along, we can’t at the moment.

[Northern Lights]

There we go.

For the sake of giving it to a Scottish Tory MP instead of saying it hours ago he's turned NL into a raging Nat

Easy!

I would like to think my outburst here has been read by Dominic and co and they’ve seen the light!

You can all thank me later, I’ve saved the Union

[Jock42]

There we go.

For the sake of giving it to a Scottish Tory MP instead of saying it hours ago he's turned NL into a raging Nat

Easy!

I would like to think my outburst here has been read by Dominic and co and they’ve seen the light!

You can all thank me later, I’ve saved the Union

(Virtual) beers are on me.

[Slick]

There we go.

For the sake of giving it to a Scottish Tory MP instead of saying it hours ago he's turned NL into a raging Nat

Easy!

I would like to think my outburst here has been read by Dominic and co and they’ve seen the light!

You can all thank me later, I’ve saved the Union

Yay NL!

That Hervie is a wee tit anyway

[tc27]

Anyway firms in Scotland can furlough staff for this month (which was always the case) - I imagine many hospitality jobs will need to use this.

Now the PM has belatedly confirm furlough will be available going forward if needed (after letting the nats kick the shit out of him for hours over it) I guess the ball is back in Sturgeons court.

[Biffer]

Anyway firms in Scotland can furlough staff for this month (which was always the case) - I imagine many hospitality jobs will need to use this.

Now the PM has belatedly confirm furlough will be available going forward if needed (after letting the nats kick the shit out of him for hours over it) I guess the ball is back in Sturgeons court.

If he sticks by it.

I guarantee you Rishi Sunak didn't know anything about it before Johnson said it.

[dpedin]

Anyway firms in Scotland can furlough staff for this month (which was always the case) - I imagine many hospitality jobs will need to use this.

Now the PM has belatedly confirm furlough will be available going forward if needed (after letting the nats kick the shit out of him for hours over it) I guess the ball is back in Sturgeons court.

If he sticks by it.

I guarantee you Rishi Sunak didn't know anything about it before Johnson said it.

I suspect you're right and the BB just got fed up having to say the same thing every time he was asked the same question, can't stick to a brief! Expect a walk back on what he said tomorrow!

[Biffer]

Various political journos on twitter now saying that Whitehall sources are less clear on the matter than Johnson was in the house.

Shockeroonie.

[Biffer]

Rolling back on it already. Jenrick on Sky won't commit to it on Sky this morning. Says it a decision for the chancellor.

[clydecloggie]

So the Prime Minister, for once, says something clear and unequivocal, only for the actual Department in charge of the scheme to deny all knowledge and potentially refuse to implement it?

Two years ago that would have been amazing - and back then we were already knee-deep in Brexit bullshit. This must be a new low in devolution, at a depth even Jules Verne would have struggled with.

Commiserations to NL and Slick who will have to remain with their new friends in the pro-Indy camp a bit longer.

[Dogbert]

So the Prime Minister, for once, says something clear and unequivocal, only for the actual Department in charge of the scheme to deny all knowledge and potentially refuse to implement it?

Two years ago that would have been amazing - and back then we were already knee-deep in Brexit bullshit. This must be a new low in devolution, at a depth even Jules Verne would have struggled with.

Commiserations to NL and Slick who will have to remain with their new friends in the pro-Indy camp a bit longer.

Nah it's nothing important only poor PR

[dpedin]

The Tories really are hopeless! First Starmer gets the Blonde Bumblecunt in a trap by calling for a fire break lock down which the BB ridicules then has to implement and now he is making policy on the hoof without having agreed it with the Treasury! What an arse. However the genie is now out of the bottle and he has nowhere to go on this one. He made the commitment in parliament to his party leader in Scotland. If he doesn't follow through then it leaves the Assistant Referee in a very, very difficult and untenable position?

[westport]

According to the Herald, Sturgeon is thinking about a lockdown for the whole of Scotland to take "maximum advantage" of furlough. That would be a despicable act to those parts that have low counts of the virus.

[Slick]

Numbers coming down it seems but hospitalisations going up - not unexpected of course and I assume this will continue for a good while yet, but must be getting a little tricky

[Biffer]

A slight aside - any recommendations for decent Scottish history documentaries that don’t involve Neil Oliver? Can’t stand the prick.

[Tichtheid]

A slight aside - any recommendations for decent Scottish history documentaries that don’t involve Neil Oliver? Can’t stand the prick.

Radio doc
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09tc4tm

I thought it was good, Tom Devine is worth listening to, and reading I believe.

T.C. Smout's History of the Scottish people was good, I think, it's a very long time since I read it