The Scottish Politics Thread

Where goats go to escape
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Tattie
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Tichtheid wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:30 pm
Biffer wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:27 pm A slight aside - any recommendations for decent Scottish history documentaries that don’t involve Neil Oliver? Can’t stand the prick.

Radio doc
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09tc4tm

I thought it was good, Tom Devine is worth listening to, and reading I believe.

T.C. Smout's History of the Scottish people was good, I think, it's a very long time since I read it
Agree re Tom Devine.

As for Oliver - he's a revisionist lickspittle arsehole.

Aye, the Highland clearances gave the forcibly displaced highlanders the chance to leave their windswept crofts for a bit of a laugh and an adventure. Could you imagine the uproar if an Irish “historian” talked about the famine being good for the Irish as it gave many of them the opportunity to leave and see the world.

Has he been punted from his role as President of the National Trust for Scotland yet? His appointment caused a bit of a stooshie. I seem to recall he announced he was "standing down" at some point this year.
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Northern Lights
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Slick wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:16 pm Numbers coming down it seems but hospitalisations going up - not unexpected of course and I assume this will continue for a good while yet, but must be getting a little tricky
Testing numbers are way down as well though from what i have been reading, they are linking it to the lighthouse labs or something funny going on there, so it might be a blip before the catch-up, hope not and the numbers are getting better.
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clydecloggie
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Northern Lights wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:18 am
Slick wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:16 pm Numbers coming down it seems but hospitalisations going up - not unexpected of course and I assume this will continue for a good while yet, but must be getting a little tricky
Testing numbers are way down as well though from what i have been reading, they are linking it to the lighthouse labs or something funny going on there, so it might be a blip before the catch-up, hope not and the numbers are getting better.
Aye, number of cases in itself doesn't mean much as it's directly linked to number of tests. % of positive tests is perhaps a better indicator of what the trend is, and ultimately number of hospitalisations and deaths - but those lag a few weeks behind the actual covid infection rates.
tc27
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clydecloggie wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:30 am
Northern Lights wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:18 am
Slick wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:16 pm Numbers coming down it seems but hospitalisations going up - not unexpected of course and I assume this will continue for a good while yet, but must be getting a little tricky
Testing numbers are way down as well though from what i have been reading, they are linking it to the lighthouse labs or something funny going on there, so it might be a blip before the catch-up, hope not and the numbers are getting better.
Aye, number of cases in itself doesn't mean much as it's directly linked to number of tests. % of positive tests is perhaps a better indicator of what the trend is, and ultimately number of hospitalisations and deaths - but those lag a few weeks behind the actual covid infection rates.
I think (speedy and geographically as convenient as possible) tests are useful for individuals so they can either continue or stop self isolating. However the UK testing rate is (despite being higher than most countries now) now just under 4/1000 people - its still going to be a very rough guide the the prevalence of the disease. Agree the lagging indicators of hospitalizations and excess deaths are likely to be the most reliable.
Jock42
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Add in the fact that people aren't testing themselves properly and the test and trace system doesn't work very well to the mix.
tc27
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And yet its the basis for the FM claiming the virus was 'virtually eliminated'.

Turned out to be massive hubris but none of the supine media has bought it up.
Jock42
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tc27 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:47 am And yet its the basis for the FM claiming the virus was 'virtually eliminated'.

Turned out to be massive hubris but none of the supine media has bought it up.
That will trigger a couple of people.
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Tichtheid
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It’s “being triggered” to correct misinformation now?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... referendum
Jock42
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Correcting misinformation isn't imo. Asking if that means being triggered is being defensive at best but could well be someone being triggered.

I actually thought you've been one of the better posters on this thread, even when there's been so much utter gash posted lately, so you choose whether or not you're triggered.
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Tichtheid
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Jock42 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:29 am Correcting misinformation isn't imo. Asking if that means being triggered is being defensive at best but could well be someone being triggered.

I actually thought you've been one of the better posters on this thread, even when there's been so much utter gash posted lately, so you choose whether or not you're triggered.
I think I’m maybe too old for the way these “debates” are conducted and the language used online, it just always seems so aggressive.
Jock42
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Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:37 am
Jock42 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:29 am Correcting misinformation isn't imo. Asking if that means being triggered is being defensive at best but could well be someone being triggered.

I actually thought you've been one of the better posters on this thread, even when there's been so much utter gash posted lately, so you choose whether or not you're triggered.
I think I’m maybe too old for the way these “debates” are conducted and the language used online, it just always seems so aggressive.
I need to use more emojis but this thread has turned quite aggressive lately. Its a pity as the jock threads were always civil with some decent food for thought posted.
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clydecloggie
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Jock42 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:47 am
Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:37 am
Jock42 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:29 am Correcting misinformation isn't imo. Asking if that means being triggered is being defensive at best but could well be someone being triggered.

I actually thought you've been one of the better posters on this thread, even when there's been so much utter gash posted lately, so you choose whether or not you're triggered.
I think I’m maybe too old for the way these “debates” are conducted and the language used online, it just always seems so aggressive.
I need to use more emojis but this thread has turned quite aggressive lately. Its a pity as the jock threads were always civil with some decent food for thought posted.
Too many soft-hearted Burghers on this thread clutching their gender-fluid pearls. Weegies know when aggression is actually affectionate.

On a more serious note, especially as it's about Scottish constitutional matters, I actually find this thread incredibly good-natured and civil, compared to almost any other discourse on the subject elsewhere.
dpedin
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tc27 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:47 am And yet its the basis for the FM claiming the virus was 'virtually eliminated'.

Turned out to be massive hubris but none of the supine media has bought it up.
I think folk get confused between elimination and eradication. The Lancet explains it quite well, 'Disease eradication is the global reduction of infection to zero cases, whereas disease elimination is the absence of sustained endemic community transmission in a country or other geographical region.' We will not eradicate the disease without a vaccine but we can try and eliminate it until one comes along.

So Wee Nic was trying to pursue elimination in the same way that NZ and South Korea and other countries had. However without control over borders or agreement across the UK to pursue such a strategy it was always going to be difficult to achieve. We did get community transmission down to very low levels and they remain low in many areas of Scotland outside of our hotspots in Lanarkshire, Glasgow and those bits of regions that are adjacent i.e. West Lothian. I would rather we continued to pursue an elimination strategy than the other alternatives but it will be difficult without control over borders to stop inward transmission, full local control over the Scottish bit of the failed UK track and test system and control over the funding to target furlough and support folk to isolate when found positive. It seems we are unwillingly padlocked to the UK Gov failed and disastrous covid19 strategy. I am not sure what the aims of the UK strategy are other than lock down now so folk can enjoy Christmas Day and kill their Grannies in January!
westport
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Ross County can have up to 300 fans at Friday's game with Livingston after the Scottish government gave permission for some fans to return to football.

That is double the number they usually get :lolno:
tc27
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So Wee Nic was trying to pursue elimination in the same way that NZ and South Korea and other countries had.
No country in Western Europe has managed this - clearly the disease became too well established here before that was viable. Even countries with a far better overall response than the UK (or Scotland) have not managed. If it was the strategy it obviously failed and was the wrong one.

However without control over borders or agreement across the UK to pursue such a strategy it was always going to be difficult to achieve.
Ahh the confluence between Covid and nationalism. Isn't it far more likely considering the overall relatively low rate of testing, the patchy implementation of test and trace and the fact many people carry the disease with no or few symptoms is responsible for the second wave. The claim the disease was carried back into Scotland 'over the border' (which means from England) I think requires a heavy burden of proof.. How many people traveled from host spots in England into the central belt of Scotland and how regularly?

Personally I think this is a fairly crass nationalist dog-whistle argument.

We did get community transmission down to very low levels and they remain low in many areas of Scotland outside of our hotspots in Lanarkshire, Glasgow and those bits of regions that are adjacent i.e. West Lothian.
This is also the case for areas of rural England which I wouldn't claim as a vindication of policy choices taken but more an indicator or geography and population patterns less accommodating to the spread of the virus

I would rather we continued to pursue an elimination strategy than the other alternatives
Why? Better to be realistic. It failed the first time - the virus was obviously never close to being eliminated
but it will be difficult without control over borders to stop inward transmission,
Inward transmission from where - I mean I know what you mean but I want you to say it. Wheres the evidence the virus was bought back into a virtually covid free Scotland by English interlopers?


Closing international borders ala New Zealand or Australia was viable right back at the start of the year for the whole UK but unfortunately that chance was missed. People may be travelling over the internal UK borders for reasons allowed under lock-down (work, essiental shopping etc) but how many people are in that situation?

full local control over the Scottish bit of the failed UK track and test system
Thats always being the case as far as I know - two apps and two systems.


and control over the funding to target furlough and support folk to isolate when found positive.
I agree support fort areas moist affected by lock-downs must be made available on a flexible base across the whole UK. The Treasury must pull its finger out on this.

It seems we are unwillingly padlocked to the UK Gov failed and disastrous covid19 strategy.
Well this is self evidently untrue as the policy in Scotland has being set by the SG. The actual polices that could have made a real difference (far earlier lock-down and closure of international borders back in February) were not implemented or called for by any of the devolved admins.

The UK has also provided billions of pounds in support both in consequentials to the SG and directly to people in Scotland (I am not claiming this is charity as people in Scotland pay taxes and pay off government debt too).

I am not sure what the aims of the UK strategy are other than lock down now so folk can enjoy Christmas Day and kill their Grannies in January!
Same as everyone else in Western Europe - lock down whilst trying not to destroy the economy and hope for an early vaccine.
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Tichtheid
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tc27, at first I thought you were Scottish but were against Scotland being an independent country. I saw you refer to "your players" on a Scottish rugby thread, which suggests you are not Scottish.

Are you not Scottish, but living in Scotland, perhaps?

I'm only asking, there is no judgement in the question or answer.

In the spirit of disclosure I'm Scottish but had to leave Scotland for work 30 years ago, currently living in Brighton after a few years living and working in France.

This thread is obviously open to anyone and everyone is welcome to contribute, I'm not asking for a full bio or a fireside chart, just some sort of idea of where we are all coming from on this topic.
Slick
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Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:40 pm Some industry news

https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/n ... fa1bk0XZUU
We certainly do need to develop some real, tangible capabilities on this. We are doing some superb work on renewables technology etc but need some real industry to be developed, sharpish.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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Paddington Bear
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Strikes me that a New Zealand style strategy would always, and will always, be a non-starter, independence or not. There's a train every half hour from Kings' Cross to Waverley. Once a virus is in any part of the British Isles, it will spread to the others.
New Zealand has a very limited range of international flights and is miles from everywhere, SK isn't an island but has a closed land border and an authoritarian state.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
tc27
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Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:12 pm tc27, at first I thought you were Scottish but were against Scotland being an independent country. I saw you refer to "your players" on a Scottish rugby thread, which suggests you are not Scottish.

Are you not Scottish, but living in Scotland, perhaps?

I'm only asking, there is no judgement in the question or answer.

In the spirit of disclosure I'm Scottish but had to leave Scotland for work 30 years ago, currently living in Brighton after a few years living and working in France.

This thread is obviously open to anyone and everyone is welcome to contribute, I'm not asking for a full bio or a fireside chart, just some sort of idea of where we are all coming from on this topic.

I am English (and British)......we live relatively close to each other as it happens.

My connection and interest to Scotland started from childhood when my dads ambition to climb every Munro saw us visit every year and I have being back as an adult more than a few times .I have also always being interested in elements of Scottish history. A close Uni mate is involved in politics in Scotland (which is a charitable way of saying he's a failed SLab MSP candidate) and its through him that my political interest got engaged back before the last referendum.
Biffer
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tc27 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:40 am
Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:12 pm tc27, at first I thought you were Scottish but were against Scotland being an independent country. I saw you refer to "your players" on a Scottish rugby thread, which suggests you are not Scottish.

Are you not Scottish, but living in Scotland, perhaps?

I'm only asking, there is no judgement in the question or answer.

In the spirit of disclosure I'm Scottish but had to leave Scotland for work 30 years ago, currently living in Brighton after a few years living and working in France.

This thread is obviously open to anyone and everyone is welcome to contribute, I'm not asking for a full bio or a fireside chart, just some sort of idea of where we are all coming from on this topic.

I am English (and British)......we live relatively close to each other as it happens.

My connection and interest to Scotland started from childhood when my dads ambition to climb every Munro saw us visit every year and I have being back as an adult more than a few times .I have also always being interested in elements of Scottish history. A close Uni mate is involved in politics in Scotland (which is a charitable way of saying he's a failed SLab MSP candidate) and its through him that my political interest got engaged back before the last referendum.
It's ok, we can't identify you from that. There are failed SLab MSP candidates on every fucking corner up here.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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clydecloggie
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Biffer wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:43 pm
tc27 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:40 am
Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:12 pm tc27, at first I thought you were Scottish but were against Scotland being an independent country. I saw you refer to "your players" on a Scottish rugby thread, which suggests you are not Scottish.

Are you not Scottish, but living in Scotland, perhaps?

I'm only asking, there is no judgement in the question or answer.

In the spirit of disclosure I'm Scottish but had to leave Scotland for work 30 years ago, currently living in Brighton after a few years living and working in France.

This thread is obviously open to anyone and everyone is welcome to contribute, I'm not asking for a full bio or a fireside chart, just some sort of idea of where we are all coming from on this topic.

I am English (and British)......we live relatively close to each other as it happens.

My connection and interest to Scotland started from childhood when my dads ambition to climb every Munro saw us visit every year and I have being back as an adult more than a few times .I have also always being interested in elements of Scottish history. A close Uni mate is involved in politics in Scotland (which is a charitable way of saying he's a failed SLab MSP candidate) and its through him that my political interest got engaged back before the last referendum.
It's ok, we can't identify you from that. There are failed SLab MSP candidates on every fucking corner up here.
Here's a fun thought experiment:

I guess most people would agree that the Scottish constitutional question is in the state it is for a considerable part because Labour lost its hold over Scottish politics.

So say we have a time machine, and we want to use it to create a 2020 Scotland where wanting to leave the Union is a slightly oddball minority pursuit and people are mostly voting Labour. How far back would we have to travel and what do we say to Scottish Labour when we arrive?
Or are we witnessing a shift in opinion on independence that always would have happened, one way or another?
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Tichtheid
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clydecloggie wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:57 pm
Here's a fun thought experiment:

I guess most people would agree that the Scottish constitutional question is in the state it is for a considerable part because Labour lost its hold over Scottish politics.

So say we have a time machine, and we want to use it to create a 2020 Scotland where wanting to leave the Union is a slightly oddball minority pursuit and people are mostly voting Labour. How far back would we have to travel and what do we say to Scottish Labour when we arrive?
Or are we witnessing a shift in opinion on independence that always would have happened, one way or another?

This is the second time I've mentioned Tom Devine in as many days - there is an interesting article here, The Strange death of Labour Scotland
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... r-scotland
Biffer
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clydecloggie wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:57 pm
Biffer wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:43 pm
tc27 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:40 am


I am English (and British)......we live relatively close to each other as it happens.

My connection and interest to Scotland started from childhood when my dads ambition to climb every Munro saw us visit every year and I have being back as an adult more than a few times .I have also always being interested in elements of Scottish history. A close Uni mate is involved in politics in Scotland (which is a charitable way of saying he's a failed SLab MSP candidate) and its through him that my political interest got engaged back before the last referendum.
It's ok, we can't identify you from that. There are failed SLab MSP candidates on every fucking corner up here.
Here's a fun thought experiment:

I guess most people would agree that the Scottish constitutional question is in the state it is for a considerable part because Labour lost its hold over Scottish politics.

So say we have a time machine, and we want to use it to create a 2020 Scotland where wanting to leave the Union is a slightly oddball minority pursuit and people are mostly voting Labour. How far back would we have to travel and what do we say to Scottish Labour when we arrive?
Or are we witnessing a shift in opinion on independence that always would have happened, one way or another?
I would suggest it's substantially outwith the control of the Scottish Labour party. As I think I might have suggested before, the constitutional question in Scotland is part of a broader discussion about the UK for the four home nations to have. The UK's place in the world has been an open question for at least fifty years, and the European question is a significant part of that. Personally I think the UK is a busted flush, and Scottish independence and the Brexit movement, and the rise of English nationalism are all reflective of that. I'm just quite glad that the Scottish indy movement didn't swing to the right.

If you want a context where the UK doesn't split up, the potentially a fuller integration with EU bodies, and greater devolution all across the UK (including into English regions) might have prevented it, so you'd need to go back to devolution post 1979 delivering benefits and it being pushed wider across the UK, joining the Euro and Schengen, so that the UK government effectively becomes a finance and admin body, citizenship is European and all of the everyday political influence (health, policing, etc.) is done by the devolved admins. A kind of middle ground that is similar to the Good Friday Agreement, where some stuff is pushed up to Europe, some stuff is pushed down to regions/nations and the UK state takes a back seat.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Paddington Bear
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For some context in this question I recommend to anyone who hasn't read it David Edgerton's The Rise and Fall of the British Nation and some of his other work.

To vaguely precis:
- Pre 1900 England and Scotland are united by finance, convenience, Protestantism and the prosperity brought to both through Empire
- There was a conscious effort to create a 'British' nation as opposed to a Union between two nations through much of the 20th Century, it's pillars being the shared sacrifice of two wars, National Industries, National Service, and National Projects.
- The end of the post-war consensus with Thatcher, the decline of heavy industry and the trade unions, the dissipation of War memory and the reduction of a strategic threat has largely eroded the pillars of British nationhood, people reverting to their more deeply held Scottish and English identities.
- With nothing to replace it the United Kingdom more resembles the post-colonial federations than a modern nation state and is on borrowed time.

I don't necessarily buy all of his points or solutions, but I think there's a lot to it.
Answering directly CC's question on what to tell SLab to leave independence as more of a niche belief - I'd have started by not linking opposition to Thatcher to Scotland as a voting bloc. Not sure how much of a difference it makes, in the absence of a 'British' shared experience we're wasting our time.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Wylie Coyote
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tc27 wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:40 am
Tichtheid wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:12 pm tc27, at first I thought you were Scottish but were against Scotland being an independent country. I saw you refer to "your players" on a Scottish rugby thread, which suggests you are not Scottish.

Are you not Scottish, but living in Scotland, perhaps?

I'm only asking, there is no judgement in the question or answer.

In the spirit of disclosure I'm Scottish but had to leave Scotland for work 30 years ago, currently living in Brighton after a few years living and working in France.

This thread is obviously open to anyone and everyone is welcome to contribute, I'm not asking for a full bio or a fireside chart, just some sort of idea of where we are all coming from on this topic.

I am English (and British)......we live relatively close to each other as it happens.

My connection and interest to Scotland started from childhood when my dads ambition to climb every Munro saw us visit every year and I have being back as an adult more than a few times .I have also always being interested in elements of Scottish history. A close Uni mate is involved in politics in Scotland (which is a charitable way of saying he's a failed SLab MSP candidate) and its through him that my political interest got engaged back before the last referendum.
Not sure what exactly the relevance of tc27's nationality is to the discussion. I have never lived anywhere else than Scotland, I can't find any any non-Scot in my family tree, and on several occasions I have been at the point of replying to a post on this thread to discover that tc27 has articulated my thoughts pretty much on the button so he's saved me the bother! (thanks tc27!).

I confess to be bored beyond tears with the constitutional issue being dragged up again and again for the last 8 years or so - educational decline? Independence! poverty? independence, covid-19? Independence! Poor economic growth? Independence! Low productivity? Independence! Midges? Independence. Lack of ball carrying #8s? Independence. However, if we are to have an indyref2 this article highlights a major issue that needs to be addressed in an adult fashion, rather than just be dismissed as "project fear". I think when folk start translating details like this into their every day lives (paid in Scottish pounds while your mortgage is in GBP) it will impact the polls dramatically. It has become an even more difficult issue than it was in 2014 and I think the vast majority of the public don't realise that yet. They will in any future campaign though.

https://www.cityam.com/separatists-scot ... astrophic/
Slick
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To be fair, I don't think there was any hidden motive at all behind the question to tc27, I must admit I was wondering.
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Tichtheid
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Slick wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:00 pm To be fair, I don't think there was any hidden motive at all behind the question to tc27, I must admit I was wondering.

There was absolutely no hidden motive, it was just out of interest to see who we have talking about the issue. It affects everyone in the UK so everyone in the UK has an entitlement to an opinion on Indy, in fact I'd go further and say they absolutely should take an interest, whatever their stance.

Those whose experience lies beyond the UK can take an interest too, and add to the debate if they feel like it, again, there was absolutely no hidden motive, but I think nationality is relevant, surely we want to find out what people are thinking beyond the line from Berwick to Gretna?
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Northern Lights
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Well Rishi has firmly kicked the ball back into Nic's court now, granted it would have been nicer if this had been spelt out sooner that furlough was available when and where needed but it has been done unequivocally now. Also although Bojo likes to shoot from the hip and did so this week when Ross pinned him down in the Commons, Rishi at least does the homework and now seems confident to back up the rhetoric.

So broad shoulders of the UK are there when needed, which should be appreciated even it by the swing voters if not the hardened nationalists.
Jock42
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Northern Lights wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:30 pm Well Rishi has firmly kicked the ball back into Nic's court now, granted it would have been nicer if this had been spelt out sooner that furlough was available when and where needed but it has been done unequivocally now. Also although Bojo likes to shoot from the hip and did so this week when Ross pinned him down in the Commons, Rishi at least does the homework and now seems confident to back up the rhetoric.

So broad shoulders of the UK are there when needed, which should be appreciated even it by the swing voters if not the hardened nationalists.
I hope so mate. Feelings are probably somewhat skewed as I live in dundee but nobody here seems to give a fuck.
tc27
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Tichtheid wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:10 pm There was absolutely no hidden motive, it was just out of interest to see who we have talking about the issue. It affects everyone in the UK so everyone in the UK has an entitlement to an opinion on Indy, in fact I'd go further and say they absolutely should take an interest, whatever their stance.

Those whose experience lies beyond the UK can take an interest too, and add to the debate if they feel like it, again, there was absolutely no hidden motive, but I think nationality is relevant, surely we want to find out what people are thinking beyond the line from Berwick to Gretna?
I have interacted with Tichtheid enough to understand the spirit in which the question was being asked. Living in the SE of England, being English and having an interest in Scottish politics (although I contend the constitutional question affects everyone in the UK) is a strange niche I can only really pursue online usually in discussion with Scots.

I also agree everyone should take an interest because it may lead to a change that will dwarf Brexit in its consequences.
dpedin
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tc27 wrote: Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:09 pm
So Wee Nic was trying to pursue elimination in the same way that NZ and South Korea and other countries had.
No country in Western Europe has managed this - clearly the disease became too well established here before that was viable. Even countries with a far better overall response than the UK (or Scotland) have not managed. If it was the strategy it obviously failed and was the wrong one.

However without control over borders or agreement across the UK to pursue such a strategy it was always going to be difficult to achieve.
Ahh the confluence between Covid and nationalism. Isn't it far more likely considering the overall relatively low rate of testing, the patchy implementation of test and trace and the fact many people carry the disease with no or few symptoms is responsible for the second wave. The claim the disease was carried back into Scotland 'over the border' (which means from England) I think requires a heavy burden of proof.. How many people traveled from host spots in England into the central belt of Scotland and how regularly?

Personally I think this is a fairly crass nationalist dog-whistle argument.

We did get community transmission down to very low levels and they remain low in many areas of Scotland outside of our hotspots in Lanarkshire, Glasgow and those bits of regions that are adjacent i.e. West Lothian.
This is also the case for areas of rural England which I wouldn't claim as a vindication of policy choices taken but more an indicator or geography and population patterns less accommodating to the spread of the virus

I would rather we continued to pursue an elimination strategy than the other alternatives
Why? Better to be realistic. It failed the first time - the virus was obviously never close to being eliminated
but it will be difficult without control over borders to stop inward transmission,
Inward transmission from where - I mean I know what you mean but I want you to say it. Wheres the evidence the virus was bought back into a virtually covid free Scotland by English interlopers?


Closing international borders ala New Zealand or Australia was viable right back at the start of the year for the whole UK but unfortunately that chance was missed. People may be travelling over the internal UK borders for reasons allowed under lock-down (work, essiental shopping etc) but how many people are in that situation?

full local control over the Scottish bit of the failed UK track and test system
Thats always being the case as far as I know - two apps and two systems.


and control over the funding to target furlough and support folk to isolate when found positive.
I agree support fort areas moist affected by lock-downs must be made available on a flexible base across the whole UK. The Treasury must pull its finger out on this.

It seems we are unwillingly padlocked to the UK Gov failed and disastrous covid19 strategy.
Well this is self evidently untrue as the policy in Scotland has being set by the SG. The actual polices that could have made a real difference (far earlier lock-down and closure of international borders back in February) were not implemented or called for by any of the devolved admins.

The UK has also provided billions of pounds in support both in consequentials to the SG and directly to people in Scotland (I am not claiming this is charity as people in Scotland pay taxes and pay off government debt too).

I am not sure what the aims of the UK strategy are other than lock down now so folk can enjoy Christmas Day and kill their Grannies in January!
Same as everyone else in Western Europe - lock down whilst trying not to destroy the economy and hope for an early vaccine.
Wow - this is pretty interesting! Lets go through your points one by one.

- Adopting elimination as a strategy is about striving to get community transmission as low as possible or even zero. Some countries have managed it and some are closer to achieving it than others. If not the correct strategy then what is the right one? Herd immunity? Lock downs?
- Control over Borders was a reference to the UK, hence my comment about a lack of agreement across the UK to pursue this. There are no borders in the UK - apart from the one down the Irish Sea but thats another thread! I made no reference to the Scotland - England 'border' and was actually thinking about the airports and ports. The lack of controls around testing and track and trace of folk coming from and going to European hotspots and others world wide was a major failing and we know that recent testing has shown that a strain originating from Spain has been found across the NW of England. We needed to control the UK borders and yes limit travel within the UK - as the Welsh, NI and Scotland authorities indicated some time ago and is now in place in England as part of their own lockdown. Devolved authorities have no control over Border control so even if they wanted to limit entry or put in place testing etc at airports and ports from non UK travel they can't really do it. The UK Gov moved far too slow on this agenda.
- I don't disagree that parts of England and Wales and NI have achieved very low levels of transmission and this is in part down to geography but it is a fact that numbers of cases per 100,000 in parts of England are significantly higher than in the worst hotspots in Scotland, in some cases 3 times higher. Check the official UK Gov website for the detail.
- Elimination strategy is about driving down community transmission to as low as possible or even zero if possible. It is a legitimate strategy to pursue even if it is difficult to achieve. I would be interested in what you think is a better strategy, as I asked before is it herd immunity you are suggesting? Bouncing in and out of lock downs?
- Again you leap to assuming I am talking about England - Scotland borders! I would suggest we need far stringent borders across the UK including airports and ports and have a far more stringent requirement for testing and isolating for anyone who has legitimate reason for coming into the UK. The NZ experience of inward transmission was a good example of the risks and how to manage it. We do however need and indeed have implemented control over travel and in particular between regions in the UK that have different rates of transmission. At the moment I am restricted to travelling only 5 miles from my household. Similar restrictions are in place across England. I don't really understand your preoccupation about the Scotland - England border - if I lived in the Cornwall or Devon then I would be wanting limitations in place for folk travelling from the NW. I think I heard a Tory MP say this in Commons yesterday!
- You obviously don't understand how the test and trace system is organised across the UK and in Scotland and the differences between each of the testing pillars for example. I can't be arsed explaining it to you but essentially Pillar 2 is run by UK Gov and has been subcontracted by them to Deliottes and other sub contractors to manage and oversee including testing prioritisation etc. We have brought track and protect into local Health boards in Scotland but this is in part dependant upon the turnaround times of the Pillar 2 system and the speedy transfer of data on positive tests into their Track and Protect Teams and this aint working!
- We agree on the need for flexible furlough schemes to match when regions/countries need it whether it is Greater Manchester or Scotland.
- Scotland called for border controls to be implemented as soon as it became apparent there was transmission from europe and elsewhere. We still cant control the borders. The SG and other devolved countries have been calling on a flexible furlough for about 6 weeks now, we just got it. We have asked for the Pillar 2 testing elements to be controlled by NHS in Scotland but failed and are in process of having to build 3 new labs in Scotland as a consequence.
- The UK does not provide billions of funding to Scotland! Remember the UK is made up of Scotland, England, NI and Wales all of whom contribute to the Treasury and get a share back, in Scottish terms this is based on the Barnett formula.
- Just listened to the Blonde Bumblecunt say live on tv that his strategy is 'to lock down now so we can all have as normal a Christmas as possible!'. That seems to be it from what I have heard from his 'address to the nation'.

Have a listen to Devi Sridhar and her take on why Scotland and the UK should adopt an elimination strategy and what is required to avoid the yo-yo'ing in and out of lock downs. Although based in University of Edinburgh she is a Rhodes Scholar and has also worked in Oxford an uni of Miami. She is a Professor in PH and knows her stuff - you might learn something?
tc27
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Any chance you could reformat? Put your responses in bold or use quotes?

Thanks
Bimbowomxn
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Have a listen to Devi Sridhar and her take on why Scotland and the UK should adopt an elimination strategy and what is required to avoid the yo-yo'ing in and out of lock downs. Although based in University of Edinburgh she is a Rhodes Scholar and has also worked in Oxford an uni of Miami. She is a Professor in PH and knows her stuff - you might learn something?

She’s a fucking sociologist and a Clinton foundation globalist shrill. You’d learn nothing about a virus from her.
Glaston
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If Boris is a blondeBumblecunt does that make Sturgeon the CrankieblondeBumblefanny?

Dont see that she has done anything much different to Boris .
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Tichtheid
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:30 pm
Have a listen to Devi Sridhar and her take on why Scotland and the UK should adopt an elimination strategy and what is required to avoid the yo-yo'ing in and out of lock downs. Although based in University of Edinburgh she is a Rhodes Scholar and has also worked in Oxford an uni of Miami. She is a Professor in PH and knows her stuff - you might learn something?

She’s a fucking sociologist and a Clinton foundation globalist shrill. You’d learn nothing about a virus from her.

Devi Sridhar is a professor who holds the chair of Global Public Health at Edinburgh. Part of her research history is in assessing responses to pandemics.

What is your background?

I'm genuinely interested as you've had a lot to say. My background is that I was an agricultural fencing contractor, sometimes builder, but I can use google.
Bimbowomxn
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:49 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:48 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:30 pm
Have a listen to Devi Sridhar and her take on why Scotland and the UK should adopt an elimination strategy and what is required to avoid the yo-yo'ing in and out of lock downs. Although based in University of Edinburgh she is a Rhodes Scholar and has also worked in Oxford an uni of Miami. She is a Professor in PH and knows her stuff - you might learn something?

She’s a fucking sociologist and a Clinton foundation globalist shrill. You’d learn nothing about a virus from her.

Devi Sridhar is a professor who holds the chair of Global Public Health at Edinburgh. Part of her research history is in assessing responses to pandemics.

What is your background?

I'm genuinely interested as you've had a lot to say. My background is that I was an agricultural fencing contractor, sometimes builder, but I can use google.


“And believe the one I agree with”
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Tichtheid
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:18 am

Bimbowomxn wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:53 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:48 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:30 pm


She’s a fucking sociologist and a Clinton foundation globalist shrill. You’d learn nothing about a virus from her.

Devi Sridhar is a professor who holds the chair of Global Public Health at Edinburgh. Part of her research history is in assessing responses to pandemics.

What is your background?

I'm genuinely interested as you've had a lot to say. My background is that I was an agricultural fencing contractor, sometimes builder, but I can use google.


“And believe the one I agree with”

Well, no I've explained several times to you why Henegahn's numbers were mistaken, and someone else pointed out that when he was asked about the fact he wasn't using real life numbers he didn't reply.

I'm happy to go through the papers and science, as far as I can follow it.
Bimbowomxn
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Tichtheid wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:56 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:53 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:48 pm


Devi Sridhar is a professor who holds the chair of Global Public Health at Edinburgh. Part of her research history is in assessing responses to pandemics.

What is your background?

I'm genuinely interested as you've had a lot to say. My background is that I was an agricultural fencing contractor, sometimes builder, but I can use google.


“And believe the one I agree with”

Well, no I've explained several times to you why Henegahn's numbers were mistaken, and someone else pointed out that when he was asked about the fact he wasn't using real life numbers he didn't reply.

I'm happy to go through the papers and science, as far as I can follow it.


I always get my epidemiologist work qualified by a fencer .


Still more use full than a doctor of
Philosophy.
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Tichtheid
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Bimbowomxn wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:03 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:56 pm
Bimbowomxn wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:53 pm



“And believe the one I agree with”

Well, no I've explained several times to you why Henegahn's numbers were mistaken, and someone else pointed out that when he was asked about the fact he wasn't using real life numbers he didn't reply.

I'm happy to go through the papers and science, as far as I can follow it.


I always get my epidemiologist work qualified by a fencer .


Still more use full than a doctor of
Philosophy.

That's where you were going wrong, it wasn't epidemiologist work, it was a fairly straightforward statistics exercise.

I wouldn't have been able to follow detailed epidemiology work.
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