Tri Nations: All Blacks vs Pumas: MATCH THREAD: Sat 14th Nov

[Ted.]

rMo is just as culpable with inaccuracy and poor decisions making as any of the players tasked with running the game. Stating the obvious, but it seems I have to, he and Smith are in the best positions to make those decisions, so hopefully they have been given license.

There were too many up and unders or box kicks and not enough pops over the rush or racking kicks to the corners. There seems to be an obsession with kick contestability rather than turning a team around and frustrating them. Contestability is fine if, as you point out, you have the right people contesting, but it's still usually 50/50 at best.

[Ymx]

I’d add to that and say the ABs are not generally great at getting possession from box kicks, coming from either side.

When we do them. They are never high enough to cause timing challenges for opposing team. They are often used when on back foot, and in own half which is moronic. They are embarrassingly predictable given the drawn out set up. We never seem to have chasers putting high pressure on, nor have deliberate positioned runners to pick up the knock downs/ons.

When defending them we just don’t organise very well to protect the catcher. I appreciate it’s a fine balance with interference but other teams are much better at it.

[Ymx]

The one obvious strategic take out for me was with the argies attack. Brilliant passing with a 2 lines of attack. The first line at the front running very flat and attracting the attention of our defence, slowing our defensive line speed, and taking a few defenders from the line. More often then (but not always) the second line attack take the ball and break over the gain line with the already slowed and distracted defence.

[Lemoentjie]

Mo'unga just isn't the same class as Barrett or Carter. He looks good at Super Rugby behind a very dominant pack, but when it really counts he often goes missing.

Have the All Blacks got any new young talent at 10 coming through?

[JM2K6]

Whitelock was busy but he was also the player most obviously losing the contact battle. When he made tackles he went backwards. When he carried he went backwards. I accept some of this is an organisational issue, but even so...

[Monkey Magic]

Whitelock was busy but he was also the player most obviously losing the contact battle. When he made tackles he went backwards. When he carried he went backwards. I accept some of this is an organisational issue, but even so...

Same thing happened in Wellington, making a bunch if tackles but going backwards in most of them.

Not sure what the gameplan really is, someone mentioned confusion (either on here or PR), and think that's right. There's confusion over selections meaning players are not in their natural positions, confusion over tactics - especially kicking wise. If players aren't 100% exactly what their role is and focus on it you lose

. With so many players juggled about, they're very much playing like the sum is less than the parts

[Dan54]

I been with no internet, having just got out of quarantine, but one certain poster rubbished me for suggesting I would maybe have played the same test as last week, I still think we should of in one way, we would of had a team fizzing to prove something. And the reason he gave me was he didn't want Barrett in 10 jersey because he was shit last week, not sure who we will play there next test going on that reasoning. I a RM fan, but I thought he was well below even what Barrett put out last week, much as I like RM, he seems to struggle if he has to decide under pressure? Hope I'm wrong and it a blip, but he needs a plan when they flying up at him on defence, perhaps the odd kick to corner. Goodhue struggled , but RM shovelled ball to him and that made it hard fror him, ALB was even worse I thought. Forwards I thought genrally were just beaten the shit out of, I thought Cane had another good game, Ardie is just not big enough to be 8 against a big aggressive pack, Frizzell disappointed me a little just ran into people without bending the line. But all in all I think brains weren't in it, showed right at start when they were throwing the ball around behind the advantage line. I really think theyw went out with supposedly first team lineup, thinking the game was won before kick off.

Your entire test match analysis revolves around criticising Richie Mo'unga (or other Crusaders players), praising Sam Cane and absolving Ian Foster of any responsibility or accountability.

Perhaps it seems that way as yours last week blamed everything at BB's feet. I don't think RM lost us game, but he was well off being near his best, and thought (as I said) very early that we seemed to think if we threw the ball without making the gainline or getting close to it we were going to outflank them. I also thought it was mentioning RMo's game (as I did with BB last week) because I a fan and got a sharp reminder of how he struggles to control a game. I still think Cane played well and if I going to be a critic of players I think went poorly, I should mention players I thought went well. I didn't realise that ALB or Frizzell were Crusaders' players, or do you only get upset if anyone mentions them as not being top players?

[Steve]

... and that's what I mean... the Crusaders, and even Carter (wink), understand that there are only two ways to counter a rush defence a) by playing directly from the ruck, or b) chipping into the space behind them, and we do neither. The day of the pods has come and gone. We must get the tighties back to five men you can throw a blanket over, two hunting the loose ball and getting to the breakdowns, and one to be everywhere, Reado style. Then our backs will have room to play! It gets on my tits when a lumbering tightie gets in the middle of a flowing back move reducing the pace to the lowest common denominator. In a way, we have to go back to go forward, or we are fxxxxxd.
So the problem isn't all the players, but the coaching team; Fozzie has never been successful. Plum showed his blinkers when he tried to justify Boshier's absence. Brad is a great fella, but ABs (?), Stormy has had what three years now, and we see no sign our defence has a plan or a philosophy, and honestly Greg Feek is an Irish hand-me-down.
Finally, the media intrusion into the team environment must be limited. Examples: RMo's cringeworthy interview of Frizzell and Reece, and the day after we get slammed by the Argies, up on Facebook pops BB's try against Argentina, 2017, God give me strength! Too much fxxxxxg skylarking, flash boots, peroxide hair, shit haircuts, and... oh save me...

Hook this post into my fucking veins. Amen brother. A-fucking men.




The allblacks are too accessible now. Too friendly. A corporation. A franchise.

A social media click harvester.

TJP spends more time talking about societal issues than working on his pass.


Get your fucking acts together you cunts.

[Steve]

Whitelock was busy but he was also the player most obviously losing the contact battle. When he made tackles he went backwards. When he carried he went backwards. I accept some of this is an organisational issue, but even so...

Same thing happened in Wellington, making a bunch if tackles but going backwards in most of them.

Not sure what the gameplan really is, someone mentioned confusion (either on here or PR), and think that's right. There's confusion over selections meaning players are not in their natural positions, confusion over tactics - especially kicking wise. If players aren't 100% exactly what their role is and focus on it you lose

. With so many players juggled about, they're very much playing like the sum is less than the parts

Honesty .....prime Ronan O Gara would have been an improvement the allblacks on Saturday. Kick to the corner flags and let them defend a few lineouts from their own 5 yard line.

[Steve]

Whitelock was busy but he was also the player most obviously losing the contact battle. When he made tackles he went backwards. When he carried he went backwards. I accept some of this is an organisational issue, but even so...

Same thing happened in Wellington, making a bunch if tackles but going backwards in most of them.

Not sure what the gameplan really is, someone mentioned confusion (either on here or PR), and think that's right. There's confusion over selections meaning players are not in their natural positions, confusion over tactics - especially kicking wise. If players aren't 100% exactly what their role is and focus on it you lose

. With so many players juggled about, they're very much playing like the sum is less than the parts

Honesty .....prime Ronan O Gara would have been an improvement for the allblacks on Saturday. Kick to the corner flags and let them defend a few lineouts from their own 5 yard line.

[Carter's Choice]

Perhaps it seems that way as yours last week blamed everything at BB's feet. I don't think RM lost us game, but he was well off being near his best, and thought (as I said) very early that we seemed to think if we threw the ball without making the gainline or getting close to it we were going to outflank them. I also thought it was mentioning RMo's game (as I did with BB last week) because I a fan and got a sharp reminder of how he struggles to control a game. I still think Cane played well and if I going to be a critic of players I think went poorly, I should mention players I thought went well. I didn't realise that ALB or Frizzell were Crusaders' players, or do you only get upset if anyone mentions them as not being top players?

It's funny how you blame everyone except the person who is ultinately responsible for the AB's, Ian Foster. Of course doing that would be admission that the NZR recruitment process was a sham all along, and that Foster was never good enough for the job.

[Steve]

Perhaps it seems that way as yours last week blamed everything at BB's feet. I don't think RM lost us game, but he was well off being near his best, and thought (as I said) very early that we seemed to think if we threw the ball without making the gainline or getting close to it we were going to outflank them. I also thought it was mentioning RMo's game (as I did with BB last week) because I a fan and got a sharp reminder of how he struggles to control a game. I still think Cane played well and if I going to be a critic of players I think went poorly, I should mention players I thought went well. I didn't realise that ALB or Frizzell were Crusaders' players, or do you only get upset if anyone mentions them as not being top players?

It's funny how you blame everyone except the person who is ultinately responsible for the AB's, Ian Foster. Of course doing that would be admission that the NZR recruitment process was a sham all along, and that Foster was never good enough for the job.

They completely shat the bed with Fosters appointment and I know im cutting off my nose to spite my face but im delighted its coming back to haunt them now. It was blatant "jobs for the boys" in action. An entant cordiale of ineptitude.

Scott Robertson's record was unrivalled. Razor shouldn't have even been subjected to the indignity of an interview. He should have just had there job bestowed upon him mid break dance.

[Wild Beef]

... and that's what I mean... the Crusaders, and even Carter (wink), understand that there are only two ways to counter a rush defence a) by playing directly from the ruck, or b) chipping into the space behind them, and we do neither. The day of the pods has come and gone. We must get the tighties back to five men you can throw a blanket over, two hunting the loose ball and getting to the breakdowns, and one to be everywhere, Reado style. Then our backs will have room to play! It gets on my tits when a lumbering tightie gets in the middle of a flowing back move reducing the pace to the lowest common denominator. In a way, we have to go back to go forward, or we are fxxxxxd.
So the problem isn't all the players, but the coaching team; Fozzie has never been successful. Plum showed his blinkers when he tried to justify Boshier's absence. Brad is a great fella, but ABs (?), Stormy has had what three years now, and we see no sign our defence has a plan or a philosophy, and honestly Greg Feek is an Irish hand-me-down.
Finally, the media intrusion into the team environment must be limited. Examples: RMo's cringeworthy interview of Frizzell and Reece, and the day after we get slammed by the Argies, up on Facebook pops BB's try against Argentina, 2017, God give me strength! Too much fxxxxxg skylarking, flash boots, peroxide hair, shit haircuts, and... oh save me...

Hook this post into my fucking veins. Amen brother. A-fucking men.




The allblacks are too accessible now. Too friendly. A corporation. A franchise.

A social media click harvester.

TJP spends more time talking about societal issues than working on his pass.


Get your fucking acts together you cunts.

Yep, more booze, pies, farmers, bushy beards. Then all our woes will be over.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

... and that's what I mean... the Crusaders, and even Carter (wink), understand that there are only two ways to counter a rush defence a) by playing directly from the ruck, or b) chipping into the space behind them, and we do neither. The day of the pods has come and gone. We must get the tighties back to five men you can throw a blanket over, two hunting the loose ball and getting to the breakdowns, and one to be everywhere, Reado style. Then our backs will have room to play! It gets on my tits when a lumbering tightie gets in the middle of a flowing back move reducing the pace to the lowest common denominator. In a way, we have to go back to go forward, or we are fxxxxxd.
So the problem isn't all the players, but the coaching team; Fozzie has never been successful. Plum showed his blinkers when he tried to justify Boshier's absence. Brad is a great fella, but ABs (?), Stormy has had what three years now, and we see no sign our defence has a plan or a philosophy, and honestly Greg Feek is an Irish hand-me-down.
Finally, the media intrusion into the team environment must be limited. Examples: RMo's cringeworthy interview of Frizzell and Reece, and the day after we get slammed by the Argies, up on Facebook pops BB's try against Argentina, 2017, God give me strength! Too much fxxxxxg skylarking, flash boots, peroxide hair, shit haircuts, and... oh save me...

Hook this post into my fucking veins. Amen brother. A-fucking men.




The allblacks are too accessible now. Too friendly. A corporation. A franchise.

A social media click harvester.

TJP spends more time talking about societal issues than working on his pass.


Get your fucking acts together you cunts.

Good rant.

[FujiKiwi]

I see a difference between TJ speaking up for a good cause like LGBTQ rights, and all the jokey interviews and social media stuff.

I’m not into the latter.

But there are a couple of stuffy fuddy-duddies on this thread.

It would be OK for all the attempts at comedy to be posted IF the team were performing up to standard and earning the fans’ respect.

A big “if”.

But I don’t think the solution is for the ABs to try and present as taciturn Colin Meads-types.

If they’re goofy and play well, there should be no problem.

[Dan54]

Perhaps it seems that way as yours last week blamed everything at BB's feet. I don't think RM lost us game, but he was well off being near his best, and thought (as I said) very early that we seemed to think if we threw the ball without making the gainline or getting close to it we were going to outflank them. I also thought it was mentioning RMo's game (as I did with BB last week) because I a fan and got a sharp reminder of how he struggles to control a game. I still think Cane played well and if I going to be a critic of players I think went poorly, I should mention players I thought went well. I didn't realise that ALB or Frizzell were Crusaders' players, or do you only get upset if anyone mentions them as not being top players?

It's funny how you blame everyone except the person who is ultinately responsible for the AB's, Ian Foster. Of course doing that would be admission that the NZR recruitment process was a sham all along, and that Foster was never good enough for the job.

Who has blamed or not blamed anyone? Last week YOU blamed BB and not Foster, I have no idea who was responsible, but then I don't have the inside knowledge that you obviously do,(either that or just a complete know all wanker), but I thought the whole team including management are to blame.
But as we don't let any blame go on anyone from Canterbury, that's ok huh?

[Dan54]

And genuine question, do the coaching /selectors take too much notice of Super rugby form when picking teams. Super rugby tends to be played pretty helter skelter, and not real physical like Test matches, is this reason we get beaten up by real physical teams? Will be interested to hear opinions on that.

Having a chat to mate here in NZ today (shit it's great to be home) and he reckons the days of real dominance by ABs are just about over. And as he said, not he end of the world as we have lived through such a dominant incredible era since we were around in 50s, so as we getting old so if it even out we still had a brilliant run. I not completely convinced that is right, or happy to give it away but interesting to hear that opinion.

[Wild Beef]

I see a difference between TJ speaking up for a good cause like LGBTQ rights, and all the jokey interviews and social media stuff.

I’m not into the latter.

But there are a couple of stuffy fuddy-duddies on this thread.

It would be OK for all the attempts at comedy to be posted IF the team were performing up to standard and earning the fans’ respect.

A big “if”.

But I don’t think the solution is for the ABs to try and present as taciturn Colin Meads-types.

If they’re goofy and play well, there should be no problem.

Pretty much. Acting the hard man never made anyone a better rugby player.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

I see a difference between TJ speaking up for a good cause like LGBTQ rights, and all the jokey interviews and social media stuff.

I’m not into the latter.

But there are a couple of stuffy fuddy-duddies on this thread.

It would be OK for all the attempts at comedy to be posted IF the team were performing up to standard and earning the fans’ respect.

A big “if”.

But I don’t think the solution is for the ABs to try and present as taciturn Colin Meads-types.

If they’re goofy and play well, there should be no problem.

Pretty much. Acting the hard man never made anyone a better rugby player.

Someone please relay that message to Dane Coles with a degree of urgency.

[Monkey Magic]

We're look a lot like 98-02 ish

Have just had a bunch of modern day legends and importantly leaders retire, there are some quality players left but not a lot of old heads and the new guys aren't a patch on what they've replaced.

I remember back then Murray Deaker interviewing Wayne Smith who said the days of All blacks being completely dominant were over. Laurie Mains was up next and called bullshit, and that it should be the goal of every coach to achieve it. Strangely mains was right and Smith was a big reason why

[Jerome_Kaino]

During this game I had to think about that part in Chasing the Sun were Rassie speaks about entitlement ( The ABs were coming of a loss and talk during the week was about sending top players home so they can see their families sooner. There is definitely a lot wrong with the team culture and the team is filled with dickheads whose heads are somewhere else. For me the only solution would be bringing Raazor in asap. But I think they will give Foster another season after it might be too late to fix it for the next RWC.

[Kiwias]

I see a difference between TJ speaking up for a good cause like LGBTQ rights, and all the jokey interviews and social media stuff.

I’m not into the latter.

But there are a couple of stuffy fuddy-duddies on this thread.

It would be OK for all the attempts at comedy to be posted IF the team were performing up to standard and earning the fans’ respect.

A big “if”.

But I don’t think the solution is for the ABs to try and present as taciturn Colin Meads-types.

If they’re goofy and play well, there should be no problem.

Pretty much. Acting the hard man never made anyone a better rugby player.

In fact, none of the real hard men in AB history were selected for their hardness. First and foremost, they were selected for the rugby ability and the hardness was part of the package with these men. Yes, and I even include Kevin Skinner in this list.

[FujiKiwi]

It gets my goat watching the goofing off the likes of Mo’unga, Reece and Frizell were doing on the All Blacks’ Facebook page or whatever it was last week.

All that stuff where players film each other being idiots, and gurning for the camera.

BUT

The idea that the All Blacks used to be serious, no-nonsense types who succeeded on the field because of their mature, statesmanlike behavior is codswallop.

Whether it was court sessions run by Justin Marshall or Richard Loe sucker punching his teammates in the bus, things used to be considerably less healthy and focused off the field.

All I want is for the team to play much, much smarter. And there’s no indication of that.

[Grandpa]

During this game I had to think about that part in Chasing the Sun were Rassie speaks about entitlement ( The ABs were coming of a loss and talk during the week was about sending top players home so they can see their families sooner. There is definitely a lot wrong with the team culture and the team is filled with dickheads whose heads are somewhere else. For me the only solution would be bringing Raazor in asap. But I think they will give Foster another season after it might be too late to fix it for the next RWC.

Totally agree with this. Something has happened since 2015... is it the loss of a leadership group that made sure players appreciated the privileged position they have? Has a new age of over-pandering to players led to the age of entitlement that Rassie so eloquently presented?

As others have said... you can fool around when you are winning consistently... but we have had too many bad matches in the last few years... the Perth hammering last year. The Irish beating NZ twice. The World Cup semi against England... and now the last two weeks... you can't help but feel that the players believe the hype too often these days...

This is feeling like 1998/99 all over again...

[handyman]

If Rassie can make the Boks world beaters in 2 years, then NZ will be able to rectify their situation in 1 year.

[Grandpa]

If Rassie can make the Boks world beaters in 2 years, then NZ will be able to rectify their situation in 1 year.

With the same coach?

[handyman]

If Rassie can make the Boks world beaters in 2 years, then NZ will be able to rectify their situation in 1 year.

With the same coach?

Foster? I doubt it. Question is, are NZ Rugby bold and brave enough to sack him so soon into his contract? Will it take $ to buy him out or is there a performance clause in his contract?

[Grandpa]

If Rassie can make the Boks world beaters in 2 years, then NZ will be able to rectify their situation in 1 year.

With the same coach?

Foster? I doubt it. Question is, are NZ Rugby bold and brave enough to sack him so soon into his contract? Will it take $ to buy him out or is there a performance clause in his contract?

Unless NZ are hammered again in the final match... Foster will be All Black coach next year. I suspect next November will be the soonest we see him go. By then Scot Robertson will be unavailable, so Plumtree will be promoted to head coach.

[handyman]

With the same coach?

Foster? I doubt it. Question is, are NZ Rugby bold and brave enough to sack him so soon into his contract? Will it take $ to buy him out or is there a performance clause in his contract?

Unless NZ are hammered again in the final match... Foster will be All Black coach next year. I suspect next November will be the soonest we see him go. By then Scot Robertson will be unavailable, so Plumtree will be promoted to head coach.

Unfortunately, that is very likely. NZ Rugby won't sack him soon, as it will reflect badly on them for appointing him. Also, you can't expect Robertson to sit back and wait, he is a very successful coach and I'm sure he's getting plenty of offers.

As South Africans, we have gone through this exercise plenty of times, so at the moment we are extremely grateful that we had Rassie and it should continue with Nienaber taking over. At least, I hope so.

[Dan54]

With the same coach?

Foster? I doubt it. Question is, are NZ Rugby bold and brave enough to sack him so soon into his contract? Will it take $ to buy him out or is there a performance clause in his contract?

Unless NZ are hammered again in the final match... Foster will be All Black coach next year. I suspect next November will be the soonest we see him go. By then Scot Robertson will be unavailable, so Plumtree will be promoted to head coach.

Thought Razor had signed on with NZR for a few years, some kind of deal was talked about a couple months ago wasn't it?

[Torquemada 1420]

Dumb post, they lacked direction and composure before they were behind. That's what happens when you have the worst coach in the history of New Zealand Rugby.

Coach isn't responsible for players' mindsets on the field once game starts. Where was the captaincy and leadership from senior players like Whitelock?

Really dumb post, Whitelock was great today. By far the best AB.

Anyway, why are the French trolls infesting this thread. Haven't you got a 6N or Covid-19 thread to troll on?

"Who were the leaders on Saturday though? Sam Cane did not manage the referee well. Sam Whitelock was strangely subdued. "

[Ted.]

Should we repurpose this thread for the upcoming game?

While we're at it, spot the interlopers.

[Gumboot]

My team for Saturday:

15 B Barrett
14 Jordan
13 R Ioane
12 ALB
11 Clarke
10 Mo'unga
9 Smith

8 Sotutu
7 Savea
6 Cane (c)
5 Vaa'i
4 Whitelock
3 Laulala
2 Coles
1 Moody

16 Aumua, 17 Hodgman, 18 Lomax, 19 S Barrett, 20 Frizell, 21 Perenara, 22 Laumape 23 J Barrett

[Certain Navigator]

Mo'unga just isn't the same class as Barrett or Carter. He looks good at Super Rugby behind a very dominant pack, but when it really counts he often goes missing.

Like Barrett the previous week against an Australian team that the Mo'unga-led ABs had put 40 points on, you mean?

You obviously haven't watched much soup rugby either — if there's one thing the 2020 Crusaders didn't have it was a dominant pack. Most of the time it was at best adequate.

[Sards]

Cmaan the ABs.....le's find some mongrel and take out these Argie pretenders........

[Ymx]

Blimey are we really this lazy without AC doing the match threads?

[Gumboot]

Blimey are we really this lazy without AC doing the match threads?

Probably a reflection of how disillusioned and apathetic ABs supporters are becoming under the Fuzzy regime.

Still, this test really should have its own match thread. C'mon, AC....

[Ymx]

Can someone log in to PR, quote Carfers OP, copy the guts of the OP inside the quotes, and start a new thread with it pasted in.

I would but seem to have misplaced my PR password. So can’t quote.