The Scottish Politics Thread

[dpedin]

Interesting thesis from Neil Oliver on the constitutional question (posted below).

He puts an eloquent case across, however, my voting intentions will not be determined by romantic notions on either side but the simple facts on the ground which I've covered to death in this thread and its predecessor. Indeed, my contribution to this thread has (in a relative sense) diminished due to respective positions being demonstrably immovable- notwithstanding the economic and legislative evidence. This piece offers something a bit different.

Wow ... what utter bullshit!

Inspiring riposte

It doesn't really deserve much more comment TBF. It is exactly what one would expect from him.

[tc27]

I suppose Scottish independence is the main reason why Boris is not giving in on the fishing rights with the EU. It will damage the SNP if their policy is to give it all back to the EU.

Could be shot NG himself in the foot though, if the Scottish government plays the same fishing rights card the leavers have.

Personally, as I said previously somewhere in here, I'd now lean towards EFTA membership in the short to medium term allowing us to have side agreements with the UK on certain areas for customs and phytosanitary for example. That would lead to some border checks but it'd be an easier border to manage as its shorter, has substantially fewer crossings and the main ones for freight are well established and have space for border infrastructure

EFTA membership (on it own) is not worth a whole hill of beans - a free trade zone with a few relatively non EU European economies and a few FTA's that replicate largely what the EU has with other trade blocs (and the UK has now mostly replicated).
If you want to plug into the EU single market through it you need to sign up to its EEA treaty (not a straightforward process).

This brings you back to needing the border with non EEA rUK..so it doesn't really solve any problems.

[Tattie]

Wow ... what utter bullshit!

Inspiring riposte

It doesn't really deserve much more comment TBF. It is exactly what one would expect from him.

I have no issue with Mr Oliver expressing his views, he is entitled to his opinions, as extreme and bizarre as they are.

What I have huge issue with is that he gets column inches and air time to spout this pish as fact. Someone who would no doubt be delighted if Scotland were no more than a historic/defunct region of his beloved Britain should not be allowed to make programmes about Scotland and it’s history IMO. Everything he makes is soaked in an anti Scottish (as a separate country) political narrative.

[tc27]

This £500 NHS 'gift' is interesting and IMo cuts right to the heart of the way the SNP use the spending powers of the Scottish government.

I mean to me its typical SNP finance in so far as it uses the opacity of Barnett consequentials (over 8 billion in extra consequentials from the CV19 fire-hose) to hand out non means tested cash electorally helpful benefits (consultants and GPs probably do not need or would barely notice £500).

Also clearly framed in a 'Scotland Good - UK bad' way and set up to trip up the UK government over making it 'tax free' (so hopefully get more grist for the grievance mill).

However - income tax is devolved (operate tax codes in Scotland) and many pointing out simply bumping the gross for everyone in the SNHS next month would do it - I wonder if they have being too clever for their own good this time?

[Tattie]

In the last week - Free sanitary products for any woman that needs them (a world first), free school meals for all primary school children and now a no-strings attached £500 payment for 300,000 NHS and care staff, oooh these nasty nats. There are still some here though that will claim that the SNP/SG have done nothing for the Scottish people.

[Bimbowomxn]

In the last week - Free sanitary products for any woman that needs them (a world first), free school meals for all primary school children and now a no-strings attached £500 payment for 300,000 NHS and care staff, oooh these nasty nats. There are still some here though that will claim that the SNP/SG have done nothing for the Scottish people.

It will be interesting when they’re discussing why they won’t pick up the fair share of the national debt why they splurged this borrowed cash above.

[Longshanks]

Splurged is a bit strong
The UK should be doing the same imo as a thank you

[tc27]

In the last week - Free sanitary products for any woman that needs them (a world first), free school meals for all primary school children and now a no-strings attached £500 payment for 300,000 NHS and care staff, oooh these nasty nats. There are still some here though that will claim that the SNP/SG have done nothing for the Scottish people.

Handing out freebies that mostly benefit the middle class because they are not means tested VS a long term decline in education standards, lower GDP growth than the rest of the UK, relentless under-funding of local services, a new hospital that cant be used, Calmac, Named Person legislation, Orwellian hate Crime legislation and one of the worst death rates from CV19 in the developed world ETC.

The strings attached to the £500 payment is that its primarily meant to be a trap to make the UK government look bad and weaonise the NHS.

[Tattie]

Splurged is a bit strong
The UK should be doing the same imo as a thank you

I think they will due to the negativity the Tories will get south of the border after this. A few days after announcing a pay freeze for public sector workers. Look how they were shamed into backtracking on school meals issue by a footballer.

Some will look on this payment (and the other aforementioned policies) by the SG with cynicism but what’s exactly is wrong with doing positive things like this for the electorate?

[tc27]

Splurged is a bit strong
The UK should be doing the same imo as a thank you

Now a decent government should be adjusting the tax code to give all low paid employees more of their own money and helping small businesses that are getting hammered by Covid.

Giving a consultant £500 using a bin mans tax money is not enlightened government.

[Longshanks]

Splurged is a bit strong
The UK should be doing the same imo as a thank you

I think they will due to the negativity the Tories will get south of the border after this. A few days after announcing a pay freeze for public sector workers. Look how they were shamed into backtracking on school meals issue by a footballer.

Some will look on this payment (and the other aforementioned policies) by the SG with cynicism but what’s exactly is wrong with doing positive things like this for the electorate?

I can't argue with any of that. I'm not keen on some of SNP views, but I'm 100% behind this.

[Tattie]

In the last week - Free sanitary products for any woman that needs them (a world first), free school meals for all primary school children and now a no-strings attached £500 payment for 300,000 NHS and care staff, oooh these nasty nats. There are still some here though that will claim that the SNP/SG have done nothing for the Scottish people.

Handing out freebies that mostly benefit the middle class because they are not means tested VS a long term decline in education standards, lower GDP growth than the rest of the UK, relentless under-funding of local services, a new hospital that cant be used, Calmac, Named Person legislation, Orwellian hate Crime legislation and one of the worst death rates from CV19 in the developed world ETC.

The strings attached to the £500 payment is that its primarily meant to be a trap to make the UK government look bad and weaonise the NHS.

I’m sure a e.g. 30 year old auxiliary nurse, with primary school age children will greatly appreciate the payout and huge annual savings this will give her.

The UK government look bad on this because they are a bunch of cunts who, despite months of gushing praise lip service can't bring themselves to reward the NHS etc even in a small way. In fact how about we freeze their pay so in reality they’re worse off. They certainly don’t need any help to make themselves look bad.

[tc27]

Splurged is a bit strong
The UK should be doing the same imo as a thank you

I think they will due to the negativity the Tories will get south of the border after this. A few days after announcing a pay freeze for public sector workers. Look how they were shamed into backtracking on school meals issue by a footballer.

Some will look on this payment (and the other aforementioned policies) by the SG with cynicism but what’s exactly is wrong with doing positive things like this for the electorate?

I can't argue with any of that. I'm not keen on some of SNP views, but I'm 100% behind this.

I can think of a couple of ways to better spend the cash just of the top of my head...

1. Compensation for NHS staff who have caught CV19 in the line of duty.
2. Fund to help those made unemployed by lock-downs short and long term assistance.

[Bimbowomxn]

Splurged is a bit strong
The UK should be doing the same imo as a thank you

What kind of real Job or organisation needs a platitude at the tax payer expense?


And yes if your running a 25% budget deficit which Scotland is this year then it’s a splurge.

[Bimbowomxn]

Splurged is a bit strong
The UK should be doing the same imo as a thank you

I think they will due to the negativity the Tories will get south of the border after this. A few days after announcing a pay freeze for public sector workers. Look how they were shamed into backtracking on school meals issue by a footballer.

Some will look on this payment (and the other aforementioned policies) by the SG with cynicism but what’s exactly is wrong with doing positive things like this for the electorate?

Not the tax paying section of the electorate.....

[Bimbowomxn]

In the last week - Free sanitary products for any woman that needs them (a world first), free school meals for all primary school children and now a no-strings attached £500 payment for 300,000 NHS and care staff, oooh these nasty nats. There are still some here though that will claim that the SNP/SG have done nothing for the Scottish people.

Handing out freebies that mostly benefit the middle class because they are not means tested VS a long term decline in education standards, lower GDP growth than the rest of the UK, relentless under-funding of local services, a new hospital that cant be used, Calmac, Named Person legislation, Orwellian hate Crime legislation and one of the worst death rates from CV19 in the developed world ETC.

The strings attached to the £500 payment is that its primarily meant to be a trap to make the UK government look bad and weaonise the NHS.

I’m sure a e.g. 30 year old auxiliary nurse, with primary school age children will greatly appreciate the payout and huge annual savings this will give her.

The UK government look bad on this because they are a bunch of cunts who, despite months of gushing praise lip service can't bring themselves to reward the NHS etc even in a small way. In fact how about we freeze their pay so in reality they’re worse off. They certainly don’t need any help to make themselves look bad.

But fuck the 4 million unemployed just round the corner.

[Tattie]

Splurged is a bit strong
The UK should be doing the same imo as a thank you

I think they will due to the negativity the Tories will get south of the border after this. A few days after announcing a pay freeze for public sector workers. Look how they were shamed into backtracking on school meals issue by a footballer.

Some will look on this payment (and the other aforementioned policies) by the SG with cynicism but what’s exactly is wrong with doing positive things like this for the electorate?

Not the tax paying section of the electorate.....

Well I’m a self employed tax payer and my wife (NHS) is too - both of us have worked and paid tax for 30+ years and we will benefit, especially as we have a primary school age child. You’re a fucking idiot, but everyone knows that already.

Oh and the £500 annual savings we make on school meals + my wife’s NHS thank you payment will be greatly appreciated and going right back into the local economy.

[Longshanks]

I've never been tribal on politics. I see good and bad in all of them. Giving to say thank you to the NHS, is a bit like the captain Tom thing. It makes me happy. So that's why I agree with it.
Economically it might not make sense, but I'd happily chip in my share.

[westport]

First off they are not freebies. They come off the tax that we pay. As for the £500 to the nurses and doctors, surely it is up to Sturgeon if they pay tax on it since her party set the tax rates in Scotland. Happy to be corrected on that bit.

[Biffer]

First off they are not freebies. They come off the tax that we pay. As for the £500 to the nurses and doctors, surely it is up to Sturgeon if they pay tax on it since her party set the tax rates in Scotland. Happy to be corrected on that bit.

They only set rates not categories. The can't exempt a certain piece of pay for a certain sector from income tax.

[Bimbowomxn]

Well I’m a self employed tax payer and my wife (NHS) is too - both of us have worked and paid tax for 30+ years and we will benefit, especially as we have a primary school age child. You’re a fucking idiot, but everyone knows that already.

Oh and the £500 annual savings we make on school meals + my wife’s NHS thank you payment will be greatly appreciated and going right back into the local economy.

If there’s a local economy left .......


Here’s the issue, the tax you’ve paid isn’t covering it. The deficit on spending in Scotland is already 25% this year. How you benefiting unlike most tax payers some how makes me an idiot is an amusing concept.

Oh, and if I was you I’d save that £1,000 for post independence it’ll be about 6 million groats.

[tc27]

First off they are not freebies. They come off the tax that we pay. As for the £500 to the nurses and doctors, surely it is up to Sturgeon if they pay tax on it since her party set the tax rates in Scotland. Happy to be corrected on that bit.

They only set rates not categories. The can't exempt a certain piece of pay for a certain sector from income tax.

They could very easily bump gross pay to make the £500 a net increase for everyone. This would not cost any extra as income tax is returned to the SG via the 'S' tax codes. They are also swimming in unspent cash from HMT from Barnett consequentials which they have held back so funding is not an issue.

But instead they are simply using it create the next contrived grevience..I mean at this point surely anyone intelligent enough to be remotely objective can see how obvious this is.

Its an awful way to make policy.

[Caley_Red]

In the last week - Free sanitary products for any woman that needs them (a world first), free school meals for all primary school children and now a no-strings attached £500 payment for 300,000 NHS and care staff, oooh these nasty nats. There are still some here though that will claim that the SNP/SG have done nothing for the Scottish people.

Handing out freebies that mostly benefit the middle class because they are not means tested VS a long term decline in education standards, lower GDP growth than the rest of the UK, relentless under-funding of local services, a new hospital that cant be used, Calmac, Named Person legislation, Orwellian hate Crime legislation and one of the worst death rates from CV19 in the developed world ETC.

The strings attached to the £500 payment is that its primarily meant to be a trap to make the UK government look bad and weaonise the NHS.

I’m sure a e.g. 30 year old auxiliary nurse, with primary school age children will greatly appreciate the payout and huge annual savings this will give her.

The UK government look bad on this because they are a bunch of cunts who, despite months of gushing praise lip service can't bring themselves to reward the NHS etc even in a small way. In fact how about we freeze their pay so in reality they’re worse off. They certainly don’t need any help to make themselves look bad.

With the greatest respect, I view your responses as those of an archetypal SNP supporter: absolutely no reference to the financing of these pledges, nor who the ultimate beneficiaries are, all policy viewed through the prism of 'kind intentions' and no regard given to the efficacy of the legislation in terms of value for money or equitableness.

The funny thing is, when (not if) the public finances collapse in the event of SNP success in a referendum, these meaningless pledges are going to be put into a fiscally broader context as the public sector financing is gutted. People won't be throwing out the roses for tokenistic headline-grabbing policy like this, instead they'll be worried about going to work the next day or receiving a pension commensurate with their expected benefits.
Ironically, it's people with your views and grasp on public policy that are going to be most perplexed when the economy is melting down around them having believed Sturgeon's hubris that it would all be alright.

[Biffer]

Consecutive posts there highlighting the inconsistent, and in this case contradictory claims against the SNP government. One of them complains that the bonus to health workers is uncosted, one complains it’s being paid for by holding back consequential spending. One unionist says they’re swimming in unspent cash, the next says they’re gutting public spending and it’s cause public finances to collapse. Which is it guys, it can’t be both? I’ll leave you to argue that out amongst yourselves before addressing it, because there’s no reason addressing whichever one is bollocks, is there?

[Caley_Red]

Consecutive posts there highlighting the inconsistent, and in this case contradictory claims against the SNP government. One of them complains that the bonus to health workers is uncosted, one complains it’s being paid for by holding back consequential spending. One unionist says they’re swimming in unspent cash, the next says they’re gutting public spending and it’s cause public finances to collapse. Which is it guys, it can’t be both? I’ll leave you to argue that out amongst yourselves before addressing it, because there’s no reason addressing whichever one is bollocks, is there?

Not sure who said the first thing but clearly these two posts are not mutually exclusive: the excess cash is part of a fiscal transfer and I'm referring to the situation where Scotland will rely on its own tax revenue as the sole source for non-borrowed expenditure.

Happy to chat about Scotland's issues with the economy, monetary policy, currency, debt and public finances if you would like? Particularly keen to hear about how Sturgeon is going to solve them or indeed any solution at all? I note whenever I go into detail about this it just remains unchallenged.

Please don't call me a 'unionist', I start from the position of the facts and make my decision, I don't start from the position of Scotland must remain in the UK come what may.

[Biffer]

Consecutive posts there highlighting the inconsistent, and in this case contradictory claims against the SNP government. One of them complains that the bonus to health workers is uncosted, one complains it’s being paid for by holding back consequential spending. One unionist says they’re swimming in unspent cash, the next says they’re gutting public spending and it’s cause public finances to collapse. Which is it guys, it can’t be both? I’ll leave you to argue that out amongst yourselves before addressing it, because there’s no reason addressing whichever one is bollocks, is there?

Not sure who said the first thing but clearly these two posts are not mutually exclusive: the excess cash is part of a fiscal transfer and I'm referring to the situation where Scotland will rely on its own tax revenue as the sole source for non-borrowed expenditure.

Happy to chat about Scotland's issues with the economy, monetary policy, currency, debt and public finances if you would like? Particularly keen to hear about how Sturgeon is going to solve them or indeed any solution at all? I note whenever I go into detail about this it just remains unchallenged.

Please don't call me a 'unionist', I start from the position of the facts and make my decision, I don't start from the position of Scotland must remain in the UK come what may.

So do you want to talk about financing this pledge which was what you replied to a post on?

[Caley_Red]

Consecutive posts there highlighting the inconsistent, and in this case contradictory claims against the SNP government. One of them complains that the bonus to health workers is uncosted, one complains it’s being paid for by holding back consequential spending. One unionist says they’re swimming in unspent cash, the next says they’re gutting public spending and it’s cause public finances to collapse. Which is it guys, it can’t be both? I’ll leave you to argue that out amongst yourselves before addressing it, because there’s no reason addressing whichever one is bollocks, is there?

Not sure who said the first thing but clearly these two posts are not mutually exclusive: the excess cash is part of a fiscal transfer and I'm referring to the situation where Scotland will rely on its own tax revenue as the sole source for non-borrowed expenditure.

Happy to chat about Scotland's issues with the economy, monetary policy, currency, debt and public finances if you would like? Particularly keen to hear about how Sturgeon is going to solve them or indeed any solution at all? I note whenever I go into detail about this it just remains unchallenged.

Please don't call me a 'unionist', I start from the position of the facts and make my decision, I don't start from the position of Scotland must remain in the UK come what may.

So do you want to talk about financing this pledge which was what you replied to a post on?

Well you're clearly trying to conflate these things and obfuscating on it: my reference to the gutting of public finances was clearly in reference to an independent Scotland whereas the previous comment was specific to the UK fiscal transfer providing under-committed funding.

[Biffer]

Not sure who said the first thing but clearly these two posts are not mutually exclusive: the excess cash is part of a fiscal transfer and I'm referring to the situation where Scotland will rely on its own tax revenue as the sole source for non-borrowed expenditure.

Happy to chat about Scotland's issues with the economy, monetary policy, currency, debt and public finances if you would like? Particularly keen to hear about how Sturgeon is going to solve them or indeed any solution at all? I note whenever I go into detail about this it just remains unchallenged.

Please don't call me a 'unionist', I start from the position of the facts and make my decision, I don't start from the position of Scotland must remain in the UK come what may.

So do you want to talk about financing this pledge which was what you replied to a post on?

Well you're clearly trying to conflate these things and obfuscating on it: my reference to the gutting of public finances was clearly in reference to an independent Scotland whereas the previous comment was specific to the UK fiscal transfer providing under-committed funding.

But in replying to a post about a bonus to NHS staff just now, your immediate reply was about the post independence fiscal situation. Don't you see how that can be taken as an archetypal Unionist response?

[Longshanks]

From the out looking in.....
I like this extra cash for NHS staff.
What i don't like is how it could be used for political gain.
Let's see if that happens before we make judgement.

[Biffer]

From the out looking in.....
I like this extra cash for NHS staff.
What i don't like is how it could be used for political gain.
Let's see if that happens before we make judgement.

Taken to an extreme that could be considered to mean we should never do anything different from Westminster. You're aware nurses get paid more in Scotland already, yeah?

[Longshanks]

From the out looking in.....
I like this extra cash for NHS staff.
What i don't like is how it could be used for political gain.
Let's see if that happens before we make judgement.

Taken to an extreme that could be considered to mean we should never do anything different from Westminster. You're aware nurses get paid more in Scotland already, yeah?

That wasn't what I meant. And no i wasn't.
What i mean is if its used to somehow prove how evil the English are instead of answering a simple question of how things will be financed after independence

[Bimbowomxn]

From the out looking in.....
I like this extra cash for NHS staff.
What i don't like is how it could be used for political gain.
Let's see if that happens before we make judgement.

Taken to an extreme that could be considered to mean we should never do anything different from Westminster. You're aware nurses get paid more in Scotland already, yeah?

Be different from Westminster by all means, just pay for those choices yourselves. This isn’t difficult.

Why should the English tax payer give money directly to Scottish Nurses ?

[tc27]

Biffer,

If your struggling just mute Bimbo.

I look forward to your responses.

[Northern Lights]

So do you want to talk about financing this pledge which was what you replied to a post on?

Well you're clearly trying to conflate these things and obfuscating on it: my reference to the gutting of public finances was clearly in reference to an independent Scotland whereas the previous comment was specific to the UK fiscal transfer providing under-committed funding.

But in replying to a post about a bonus to NHS staff just now, your immediate reply was about the post independence fiscal situation. Don't you see how that can be taken as an archetypal Unionist response?

How about for a change you actually address the point he is making and not just give a typical nat response

[westport]

First off they are not freebies. They come off the tax that we pay. As for the £500 to the nurses and doctors, surely it is up to Sturgeon if they pay tax on it since her party set the tax rates in Scotland. Happy to be corrected on that bit.

They only set rates not categories. The can't exempt a certain piece of pay for a certain sector from income tax.

Funny I am not the only one thinking what I put

She also urged Prime Minister Boris Johnson to use the UK government's powers to make sure the payments are tax-free.

A spokesperson from HM Treasury said: "The income tax on these payments is paid to Scotland, not Westminster - and the Scottish government has the powers and funding to gross up the payment if it wishes."

Also

[Dogbert]

From the out looking in.....
I like this extra cash for NHS staff.
What i don't like is how it could be used for political gain.
Let's see if that happens before we make judgement.

Taken to an extreme that could be considered to mean we should never do anything different from Westminster. You're aware nurses get paid more in Scotland already, yeah?

That wasn't what I meant. And no i wasn't.
What i mean is if its used to somehow prove how evil the English are instead of answering a simple question of how things will be financed after independence

Who in this thread have ever suggested the 'English are evil '? -

[Longshanks]

Taken to an extreme that could be considered to mean we should never do anything different from Westminster. You're aware nurses get paid more in Scotland already, yeah?

That wasn't what I meant. And no i wasn't.
What i mean is if its used to somehow prove how evil the English are instead of answering a simple question of how things will be financed after independence

Who in this thread have ever suggested the 'English are evil '? -

Do you do hyperbole?
"We're better than you are"

[Biffer]

That wasn't what I meant. And no i wasn't.
What i mean is if its used to somehow prove how evil the English are instead of answering a simple question of how things will be financed after independence

Who in this thread have ever suggested the 'English are evil '? -

Do you do hyperbole?
"We're better than you are"

Who said that, seeing as it's in quotes?

[Biffer]

Biffer,

If your struggling just mute Bimbo.

I look forward to your responses.

He's been on mute for a long time.

[Biffer]

Well you're clearly trying to conflate these things and obfuscating on it: my reference to the gutting of public finances was clearly in reference to an independent Scotland whereas the previous comment was specific to the UK fiscal transfer providing under-committed funding.

But in replying to a post about a bonus to NHS staff just now, your immediate reply was about the post independence fiscal situation. Don't you see how that can be taken as an archetypal Unionist response?

How about for a change you actually address the point he is making and not just give a typical nat response

Which point? Your point the the Scottish government isn't spending the consequential or tc's point that we can't afford it?