So, coronavirus...

[Bimbowomxn]

The chances are the Tories have jumped the shark.

[Longshanks]

Torygraph misleading readers again.
It is discussing the rapid lateral flow tests used in Liverpool and how they only picked up half the positive cases (which we knew before the roll out of the tests)

half of people who had coronavirus would wrongly believe they did not have the disease

No they wouldn't. You are informed before you take the test that is will only confirm if you are infectious, you may still have Covid so remain cautious, but it is highly unlikely you can infect anyone.

[Longshanks]

Bimbo
Doesn't the reduction of cases in Liverpool undermine your contention that if you're asymptomatic you can't infect others? The drop in cases in Liverpool is greater than other areas with similar infection rates. How would you explain?

[Flockwitt]

It’s that scouser, a lamp and a genie again.

[frodder]

Let's not bring Sefton into this

[GogLais]

Let’s hear it for the Wirral - infection rate now less than half the average for England. 75% down from its peak a few weeks ago.

[Bimbowomxn]

Bimbo
Doesn't the reduction of cases in Liverpool undermine your contention that if you're asymptomatic you can't infect others? The drop in cases in Liverpool is greater than other areas with similar infection rates. How would you explain?

I’m not sure how this would relate to asymptomatic cases, what’s the theory ?

My assertion regarding asymptomatic is because the peer reviewed study from China and how Corona viruses enter our respiratory tracts. We still “can” spread early or late symptom but the genuine asymptomatic much less so.

[Longshanks]

Bimbo
Doesn't the reduction of cases in Liverpool undermine your contention that if you're asymptomatic you can't infect others? The drop in cases in Liverpool is greater than other areas with similar infection rates. How would you explain?

I’m not sure how this would relate to asymptomatic cases, what’s the theory ?

My assertion regarding asymptomatic is because the peer reviewed study from China and how Corona viruses enter our respiratory tracts. We still “can” spread early or late symptom but the genuine asymptomatic much less so.

The lateral flow tests have only been offered in Liverpool and are not for anybody with symptoms. Like in all other areas of the country a PCR tests is used if you have symptoms. So anyone can access these tests if you live or work in the Liverpool area. They have found over 1000 people who are asymptomatic and infectious. The drop in infections in the city is largely put down to these tests.
So logically if you're asymptomatic you can infect others.

[Bimbowomxn]

Bimbo
Doesn't the reduction of cases in Liverpool undermine your contention that if you're asymptomatic you can't infect others? The drop in cases in Liverpool is greater than other areas with similar infection rates. How would you explain?

I’m not sure how this would relate to asymptomatic cases, what’s the theory ?

My assertion regarding asymptomatic is because the peer reviewed study from China and how Corona viruses enter our respiratory tracts. We still “can” spread early or late symptom but the genuine asymptomatic much less so.

The lateral flow tests have only been offered in Liverpool and are not for anybody with symptoms. Like in all other areas of the country a PCR tests is used if you have symptoms. So anyone can access these tests if you live or work in the Liverpool area. They have found over 1000 people who are asymptomatic and infectious. The drop in infections in the city is largely put down to these tests.
So logically if you're asymptomatic you can infect others.

How did they prove the 1,000 people mentioned were infectious? I don’t get it.

[Longshanks]

I’m not sure how this would relate to asymptomatic cases, what’s the theory ?

My assertion regarding asymptomatic is because the peer reviewed study from China and how Corona viruses enter our respiratory tracts. We still “can” spread early or late symptom but the genuine asymptomatic much less so.

The lateral flow tests have only been offered in Liverpool and are not for anybody with symptoms. Like in all other areas of the country a PCR tests is used if you have symptoms. So anyone can access these tests if you live or work in the Liverpool area. They have found over 1000 people who are asymptomatic and infectious. The drop in infections in the city is largely put down to these tests.
So logically if you're asymptomatic you can infect others.

How did they prove the 1,000 people mentioned were infectious? I don’t get it.

That's what the test is said to do. Find asymptomatic carriers likely to infect others (because you can have Covid and not be infectious)
There has been a dramatic drop in cases in Liverpool (it is in now tier 2). Other areas with a similar infection rate to Liverpool before these tests started are still in the highest tier.
That demonstrates these tests work and also shows that asymptomatic carriers are infecting other people.
I hope I've explained that fully.
It is straightforward.

Obviously I'm not looking for an argument, just hoping you will change you opinion on that.

[Bimbowomxn]

I’ll stick with the peer reviewed and published study showing a massive reduced risk thanks.

The test itself is now being questioned.

Edit , thanks for patience though, I really couldn’t grasp the premise.

[Wyndham Upalot]

So, my experience of Covid. Was back in UK about 4 weeks ago, and pinged as being in contact with someone who was positive. Self-isolated immediately for 10 days, and at day 2, felt fucking crap. Had all the symptoms bar (thankfully) respiratory. Very unwell, but it took 2 days, with resulting loss of smell/taste and severe fatigue. 14 days later, ok to (somehow) return to Switzerland. This fucking disease is real you non-believers. I'm 54, in good health, and would take the UK vaccine asap ... given the opportunity.

[mat the expat]

We will be ditching home working ASAP too and lots of other business people I speak to are of a similar mind.

Tech has been good but not nearly as effective as everyone in the office imho.

A lot of Huge companies are taking advantage of this to minimise their footprints in expensive CBD offices.

If Banks and Insurers are doing it, good luck getting the genie back in the bottle.

A lot of jobs don't need to be CBD based 5 days a week.

[Saint]

We will be ditching home working ASAP too and lots of other business people I speak to are of a similar mind.

Tech has been good but not nearly as effective as everyone in the office imho.

A lot of Huge companies are taking advantage of this to minimise their footprints in expensive CBD offices.

If Banks and Insurers are doing it, good luck getting the genie back in the bottle.

A lot of jobs don't need to be CBD based 5 days a week.

It's a twofold thing. For business it's a huge opportunity to reduce costs; for the individual it's a better work life balance. For most businesses I'm fairly sure you're going to end up with a mix of 1-2 days per week in office, the rest WFH. If employees really do prefer the WFH opportunity then you will see them gravitate towards employers offering it.

The difference being that instead of being tje rushed "we'll use whatever we've already got" to make it happen it's going to be a real investment with corporate oversight, auditing etc. I'm spending a huge amount of time ATM discussing options with corporates from 50seats to 20,000 and it's the same across the board, and the orders are piling in

[mat the expat]

I'm working on a program of works for a global company to relocate to 2 Flagship offices in CBDs.

Both have had their floors slashed by 30% - actuaries usually win out on these decisions, not middle-management.

We're installing some great tech to enable the average return to work of 2 days a week (There will be plenty of those working from home full-time and those working in the office full-time.

Oz has historically been very backward about working remotely (Poor management, terrible internet, huge subsidies for CBD Parking, etc).

It will never go back to the way it was - the smart people have already decamped to regional towns (Again, Oz has a terrible record at decentralisation).

The hybrid model is the way it should be.

The best result of WFH is the usual suspects quickly being exposed as do-nothings

[Sandstorm]

In our business during Lockdown the good workers are 90% as effective as being in the office. The shit workers are probably only producing at 50% their previous average level. Managing performance is harder.

It’s also hard to collaborate only on Teams for months on end. Deadlines slip, people get away with poor delivery more often and it’s much easier to bullshit over the video link.

Plus I’m really bored of saying: “You’re on mute” and “ No, we cannot see your shared screen yet”

[Saint]

I'm working on a program of works for a global company to relocate to 2 Flagship offices in CBDs.

Both have had their floors slashed by 30% - actuaries usually win out on these decisions, not middle-management.

We're installing some great tech to enable the average return to work of 2 days a week (There will be plenty of those working from home full-time and those working in the office full-time.

Oz has historically been very backward about working remotely (Poor management, terrible internet, huge subsidies for CBD Parking, etc).

It will never go back to the way it was - the smart people have already decamped to regional towns (Again, Oz has a terrible record at decentralisation).

The hybrid model is the way it should be.

The best result of WFH is the usual suspects quickly being exposed as do-nothings

That sounds about right. The irony if WFH is that it generally exposes the waste of space, whereas tge presumption/fear had been the opposite.

Call centres are going to be 100% WFH inside 3 years. Those out of town office parks will be REALLY empty

[Saint]

In our business during Lockdown the good workers are 90% as effective as being in the office. The shit workers are probably only producing at 50% their previous average level. Managing performance is harder.

It’s also hard to collaborate only on Teams for months on end. Deadlines slip, people get away with poor delivery more often and it’s much easier to bullshit over the video link.

Plus I’m really bored of saying: “You’re on mute” and “ No, we cannot see your shared screen yet”

Internally, we're tending towards the good workers being MORE productive/effective. And tge gap between good and poor has become extremely obvious.

I agree that there are tech challenges, but they're largely down to lack of training/poor choice (I.e. free) of technology driven by the rushed move to WFH. That is now priority no 1 fir most firms to change.

[mat the expat]

I'm working on a program of works for a global company to relocate to 2 Flagship offices in CBDs.

Both have had their floors slashed by 30% - actuaries usually win out on these decisions, not middle-management.

We're installing some great tech to enable the average return to work of 2 days a week (There will be plenty of those working from home full-time and those working in the office full-time.

Oz has historically been very backward about working remotely (Poor management, terrible internet, huge subsidies for CBD Parking, etc).

It will never go back to the way it was - the smart people have already decamped to regional towns (Again, Oz has a terrible record at decentralisation).

The hybrid model is the way it should be.

The best result of WFH is the usual suspects quickly being exposed as do-nothings

That sounds about right. The irony if WFH is that it generally exposes the waste of space, whereas tge presumption/fear had been the opposite.

Call centres are going to be 100% WFH inside 3 years. Those out of town office parks will be REALLY empty

Exactly - TBH, it's more a function of NSW being run from Cremorne and Mosman that there is no focus outside the CBD.

The number of Middle-managers who just held meetings have been decimated, and productivity has gone up!

[Sandstorm]

In our business during Lockdown the good workers are 90% as effective as being in the office. The shit workers are probably only producing at 50% their previous average level. Managing performance is harder.

It’s also hard to collaborate only on Teams for months on end. Deadlines slip, people get away with poor delivery more often and it’s much easier to bullshit over the video link.

Plus I’m really bored of saying: “You’re on mute” and “ No, we cannot see your shared screen yet”

Internally, we're tending towards the good workers being MORE productive/effective. And tge gap between good and poor has become extremely obvious.

I agree that there are tech challenges, but they're largely down to lack of training/poor choice (I.e. free) of technology driven by the rushed move to WFH. That is now priority no 1 fir most firms to change.

Aren’t you all in Sales? Easier to do that when you’re sat quietly at home without noise and distracting colleagues.

I work all day in a technical team of 8 and having to work remotely and announce what you are working on on Teams text all the time, wastes many minutes every hour.

Much easier to talk across a desk.

[Rinkals]

Because people pay so much attention to experts?

https://www.edition.cnn.com/world/live- ... 61cc364d44

“We have the gold standard of a regulatory approach with the FDA. The UK did not do it as carefully and they got a couple of days ahead,” he said. “I don't think that makes much difference. We'll be there. We'll be there very soon.”

It seems that not everyone is convinced that political interference is not the driver behind the rush to approval.

Let's be honest Rinkals,; you would prefer to believe there was political interference from Boris whatever the case. Nothing posted here will change your view.

I'm being perfectly honest when I say that I don't trust Johnson not to cut corners on this.

If he hasn't and the early approval of the vaccine is entirely due to the UK being several orders of magnitude more efficient than anywhere else, then great: I will happily concede that I am wrong.

I just feel that I'm entitled to express my scepticism, though.

[mat the expat]

In our business during Lockdown the good workers are 90% as effective as being in the office. The shit workers are probably only producing at 50% their previous average level. Managing performance is harder.

It’s also hard to collaborate only on Teams for months on end. Deadlines slip, people get away with poor delivery more often and it’s much easier to bullshit over the video link.

Plus I’m really bored of saying: “You’re on mute” and “ No, we cannot see your shared screen yet”

Internally, we're tending towards the good workers being MORE productive/effective. And tge gap between good and poor has become extremely obvious.

I agree that there are tech challenges, but they're largely down to lack of training/poor choice (I.e. free) of technology driven by the rushed move to WFH. That is now priority no 1 fir most firms to change.

Having worked from home for years as a Tech, I was surpringly not disappointed that HR at the new gig I started in September were completely useless and had nothing specific for new-starters during Covid.....

I may have engaged in some positive feedback.

Ironically, I was pleasantly surprised by C-Level bods at this and the previous gig being really excellent about WFH and staff safety. Could be a generational change there

[Saint]

In our business during Lockdown the good workers are 90% as effective as being in the office. The shit workers are probably only producing at 50% their previous average level. Managing performance is harder.

It’s also hard to collaborate only on Teams for months on end. Deadlines slip, people get away with poor delivery more often and it’s much easier to bullshit over the video link.

Plus I’m really bored of saying: “You’re on mute” and “ No, we cannot see your shared screen yet”

Internally, we're tending towards the good workers being MORE productive/effective. And tge gap between good and poor has become extremely obvious.

I agree that there are tech challenges, but they're largely down to lack of training/poor choice (I.e. free) of technology driven by the rushed move to WFH. That is now priority no 1 fir most firms to change.

Aren’t you all in Sales? Easier to do that when you’re sat quietly at home without noise and distracting colleagues.

I work all day in a technical team of 8 and having to work remotely and announce what you are working on on Teams text all the time, wastes many minutes every hour.

Much easier to talk across a desk.

Obviously there are differences between businesses, but we're a VERY young company in terms of age profile. Even including the old timers like me, the average age is around 23 - but it's very noticeable that the people who historically wouldn't "be trusted" not to piss around without oversight are amongst the highest achievers in WFH. Our techies/delivery and ops guys(around 1/3of the company) are reporting similar results. Which tends towards the theory that good management works, regardless of the environment.

And then I've got the experience of what my customers are telling me. One if the biggest spenders right now us a high street retailer- not changing their selling model, but completely ripping up their backoffice

[Saint]

https://www.edition.cnn.com/world/live- ... 61cc364d44



It seems that not everyone is convinced that political interference is not the driver behind the rush to approval.

Let's be honest Rinkals,; you would prefer to believe there was political interference from Boris whatever the case. Nothing posted here will change your view.

I'm being perfectly honest when I say that I don't trust Johnson not to cut corners on this.

If he hasn't and the early approval of the vaccine is entirely due to the UK being several orders of magnitude more efficient than anywhere else, then great: I will happily concede that I am wrong.

I just feel that I'm entitled to express my scepticism, though.

I think the chances of any shortcut in the UK not being leaked to the press inside 12 hours are extremely close to zero

[mat the expat]

I work all day in a technical team of 8 and having to work remotely and announce what you are working on on Teams text all the time, wastes many minutes every hour.

Much easier to talk across a desk.

What kind of Tech are you that can't handle Teams/Slack, etc

[Sandstorm]

I work all day in a technical team of 8 and having to work remotely and announce what you are working on on Teams text all the time, wastes many minutes every hour.

Much easier to talk across a desk.

What kind of Tech are you that can't handle Teams/Slack, etc

I’ve used both effectively for 5+ years. But having to announce on Teams “@service Team. I’m doing ticket 34675 Tokyo “ before actually doing it is a waste of time. Previously I’d just say it across the desk.

[Saint]

I work all day in a technical team of 8 and having to work remotely and announce what you are working on on Teams text all the time, wastes many minutes every hour.

Much easier to talk across a desk.

What kind of Tech are you that can't handle Teams/Slack, etc

I’ve used both effectively for 5+ years. But having to announce on Teams “@service Team. I’m doing ticket 34675 Tokyo “ before actually doing it is a waste of time. Previously I’d just say it across the desk.

Why not just have a proper ticketing platform that allocates automatically?

[Sandstorm]

What kind of Tech are you that can't handle Teams/Slack, etc

I’ve used both effectively for 5+ years. But having to announce on Teams “@service Team. I’m doing ticket 34675 Tokyo “ before actually doing it is a waste of time. Previously I’d just say it across the desk.

Why not just have a proper ticketing platform that allocates automatically?

We do. But only 50% can be. The rest are grabbed as they arrive or are allocated by Team Leader (me)

[Saint]

I’ve used both effectively for 5+ years. But having to announce on Teams “@service Team. I’m doing ticket 34675 Tokyo “ before actually doing it is a waste of time. Previously I’d just say it across the desk.

Why not just have a proper ticketing platform that allocates automatically?

We do. But only 50% can be. The rest are grabbed as they arrive or are allocated by Team Leader (me)

Even then - what are you using that needs in person (or even team chat) allocation?

Feels like I've gone back in time 5-10 years

[mat the expat]

I’ve used both effectively for 5+ years. But having to announce on Teams “@service Team. I’m doing ticket 34675 Tokyo “ before actually doing it is a waste of time. Previously I’d just say it across the desk.

Sounds weak chap - I've been doing it for decades - even back on ancient messaging systems.

Even without, don't you just seize the ticket in the portal?

sounds terribly inefficient, are you an MSP?

[Saint]

I’ve used both effectively for 5+ years. But having to announce on Teams “@service Team. I’m doing ticket 34675 Tokyo “ before actually doing it is a waste of time. Previously I’d just say it across the desk.

Sounds weak chap - I've been doing it for decades - even back on ancient messaging systems.

Even without, don't you just seize the ticket in the portal?

sounds terribly inefficient, are you an MSP?

Ouch

[mat the expat]

Hey, I'm no longer a Tech, I need to get my angst out somewhere

[Enzedder]

Poor Yanks starting to pay for the elections - still a couple of weeks before the Thanksgiving victims hit the death notices - up to almost 3000 deaths notified today

[Rinkals]

I'm being perfectly honest when I say that I don't trust Johnson not to cut corners on this.

If he hasn't and the early approval of the vaccine is entirely due to the UK being several orders of magnitude more efficient than anywhere else, then great: I will happily concede that I am wrong.

I just feel that I'm entitled to express my scepticism, though.

I think the chances of any shortcut in the UK not being leaked to the press inside 12 hours are extremely close to zero

Fair point.

Just to add that I might have been a little harsh about "several orders of magnitude".

I have great respect for British engineers. British politicians, not so much.

[Biffer]

I'm being perfectly honest when I say that I don't trust Johnson not to cut corners on this.

If he hasn't and the early approval of the vaccine is entirely due to the UK being several orders of magnitude more efficient than anywhere else, then great: I will happily concede that I am wrong.

I just feel that I'm entitled to express my scepticism, though.

I think the chances of any shortcut in the UK not being leaked to the press inside 12 hours are extremely close to zero

Fair point.

Just to add that I might have been a little harsh about "several orders of magnitude".

I have great respect for British engineers. British politicians, not so much.

You've got to remember that for a senior scientist their reputation within their field is far more important than their relationship with any transient politician. And they're pretty much all more intelligent than the politicos too, and they know it.

[Bimbowomxn]

[Sandstorm]

I’ve used both effectively for 5+ years. But having to announce on Teams “@service Team. I’m doing ticket 34675 Tokyo “ before actually doing it is a waste of time. Previously I’d just say it across the desk.

Sounds weak chap - I've been doing it for decades - even back on ancient messaging systems.

Even without, don't you just seize the ticket in the portal?

sounds terribly inefficient, are you an MSP?

Onto Ignore you bastard!!

[Paddington Bear]

We will be ditching home working ASAP too and lots of other business people I speak to are of a similar mind.

Tech has been good but not nearly as effective as everyone in the office imho.

We're finding people's work life balance this winter has been non existent. Meeting after meeting. Get me off a video call and into a room again.

[Sandstorm]

We will be ditching home working ASAP too and lots of other business people I speak to are of a similar mind.

Tech has been good but not nearly as effective as everyone in the office imho.

We're finding people's work life balance this winter has been non existent. Meeting after meeting. Get me off a video call and into a room again.

I miss the banter in the office, but hated using anti-virus gel 19 times a day!

[Saint]

We will be ditching home working ASAP too and lots of other business people I speak to are of a similar mind.

Tech has been good but not nearly as effective as everyone in the office imho.

We're finding people's work life balance this winter has been non existent. Meeting after meeting. Get me off a video call and into a room again.

We're finding the opposite, but our management is making a strong effort to encourage people to take breaks/not work after hours etc