The Brexit Thread

[Sandstorm]

O2 commercial contract renewal received yesterday...


mobile EU charges.JPG

Meh, we all called that one about 6 hours after the Brexit vote in 2016.

Yeah, but there will still be thousands of people screaming about it when they get big bills after their holiday later in the year, with associated headlines in the trash papers.

Yeah

[ASMO]

On the O2 website and there is noting there about additional EU roaming charges, in fact they are saying quite the opposite.

https://www.o2.co.uk/help/pay-monthly/roaming-in-europe

[.OverThere]

[https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/e ... spartandhp][/url]

persecution

Idiots complaining about an Expert being given a job that requires an expert.

Bring back the DExEU,
From the paper that never managed to stop living in the past.

[Insane_Homer]

On the O2 website and there is noting there about additional EU roaming charges, in fact they are saying quite the opposite.

https://www.o2.co.uk/help/pay-monthly/roaming-in-europe

that's for personal, not business contracts...

Get UK to EU minutes and texts included on selected tariffs.

https://www.o2.co.uk/business/solutions ... rom-the-UK

[fishfoodie]

UK copying the shitgibbon; always a good way of looking like dickheads.

The government has been criticised for downgrading the diplomatic status of the EU's ambassador in London.

Ex-Foreign Office ministers and diplomats said the decision was petty and could set a bad precedent.

But the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office insisted EU delegation staff would still receive the privileges needed to do their job.

The decision is in contrast to the 142 other countries where EU ambassadors have full diplomatic status.

...

David Lidington, the former Conservative minister for Europe, warned that "non-recognition could set a bad precedent for regimes that hate EU ambassadors speaking up for human rights defenders".

He said the Foreign Office should not "pick a fight on this".

Tobias Ellwood, also a former Foreign Office minister and current chairman of the Commons Defence Committee described the decision as "simply petty".

...

Instead of giving the EU's ambassador, Joao Vale de Almeida, full diplomatic status, the UK wants to treat the EU delegation as representatives of an international organisation.

This means EU diplomats would not have the full protection of the Vienna Convention which gives them immunity from detention, criminal jurisdiction and taxation.

The EU argues it is not a typical international organisation because it has its own currency, judicial system and the power to make law.

How would the UK like it if all of their Diplomats were downgraded in all EU27 member States ?

The UK gave Diplomatic status to the wife of a US Air Force officer, who drove on the wrong side of the road, & mowed down, a UK Citizen; but won't give it to EU Officials....

[Biffer]

UK copying the shitgibbon; always a good way of looking like dickheads.

The government has been criticised for downgrading the diplomatic status of the EU's ambassador in London.

Ex-Foreign Office ministers and diplomats said the decision was petty and could set a bad precedent.

But the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office insisted EU delegation staff would still receive the privileges needed to do their job.

The decision is in contrast to the 142 other countries where EU ambassadors have full diplomatic status.

...

David Lidington, the former Conservative minister for Europe, warned that "non-recognition could set a bad precedent for regimes that hate EU ambassadors speaking up for human rights defenders".

He said the Foreign Office should not "pick a fight on this".

Tobias Ellwood, also a former Foreign Office minister and current chairman of the Commons Defence Committee described the decision as "simply petty".

...

Instead of giving the EU's ambassador, Joao Vale de Almeida, full diplomatic status, the UK wants to treat the EU delegation as representatives of an international organisation.

This means EU diplomats would not have the full protection of the Vienna Convention which gives them immunity from detention, criminal jurisdiction and taxation.

The EU argues it is not a typical international organisation because it has its own currency, judicial system and the power to make law.

How would the UK like it if all of their Diplomats were downgraded in all EU27 member States ?

The UK gave Diplomatic status to the wife of a US Air Force officer, who drove on the wrong side of the road, & mowed down, a UK Citizen; but won't give it to EU Officials....

Also read s9mewhere it could fuck up relations with the US. Biden was looking to make transatlantic relations a tripartite thing USA-EU-UK, but if we view the EU as a lesser party that won’t work. So if the USA is forced to make a choice, they’ll view the EU as the senior party.

Petty minded English exceptionalism pissing all over the rest of us.

[fishfoodie]

UK copying the shitgibbon; always a good way of looking like dickheads.

The government has been criticised for downgrading the diplomatic status of the EU's ambassador in London.

Ex-Foreign Office ministers and diplomats said the decision was petty and could set a bad precedent.

But the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office insisted EU delegation staff would still receive the privileges needed to do their job.

The decision is in contrast to the 142 other countries where EU ambassadors have full diplomatic status.

...

David Lidington, the former Conservative minister for Europe, warned that "non-recognition could set a bad precedent for regimes that hate EU ambassadors speaking up for human rights defenders".

He said the Foreign Office should not "pick a fight on this".

Tobias Ellwood, also a former Foreign Office minister and current chairman of the Commons Defence Committee described the decision as "simply petty".

...

Instead of giving the EU's ambassador, Joao Vale de Almeida, full diplomatic status, the UK wants to treat the EU delegation as representatives of an international organisation.

This means EU diplomats would not have the full protection of the Vienna Convention which gives them immunity from detention, criminal jurisdiction and taxation.

The EU argues it is not a typical international organisation because it has its own currency, judicial system and the power to make law.

How would the UK like it if all of their Diplomats were downgraded in all EU27 member States ?

The UK gave Diplomatic status to the wife of a US Air Force officer, who drove on the wrong side of the road, & mowed down, a UK Citizen; but won't give it to EU Officials....

Also read s9mewhere it could fuck up relations with the US. Biden was looking to make transatlantic relations a tripartite thing USA-EU-UK, but if we view the EU as a lesser party that won’t work. So if the USA is forced to make a choice, they’ll view the EU as the senior party.

Petty minded English exceptionalism pissing all over the rest of us.

It's a petty, ignorant, spiteful, bullshit act.

If it came from a banana Republic it would be contemptible; from the UK it's deplorable.

[robmatic]

UK copying the shitgibbon; always a good way of looking like dickheads.



How would the UK like it if all of their Diplomats were downgraded in all EU27 member States ?

The UK gave Diplomatic status to the wife of a US Air Force officer, who drove on the wrong side of the road, & mowed down, a UK Citizen; but won't give it to EU Officials....

Also read s9mewhere it could fuck up relations with the US. Biden was looking to make transatlantic relations a tripartite thing USA-EU-UK, but if we view the EU as a lesser party that won’t work. So if the USA is forced to make a choice, they’ll view the EU as the senior party.

Petty minded English exceptionalism pissing all over the rest of us.

It's a petty, ignorant, spiteful, bullshit act.

If it came from a banana Republic it would be contemptible; from the UK it's deplorable.

It's terrible diplomacy and for what? Something the man on the street couldn't give a monkey's about, so it's not even a good populist move. All it does is make a few of the Brexit headbangers in the Tory party slightly tumescent.

[dpedin]

Also read s9mewhere it could fuck up relations with the US. Biden was looking to make transatlantic relations a tripartite thing USA-EU-UK, but if we view the EU as a lesser party that won’t work. So if the USA is forced to make a choice, they’ll view the EU as the senior party.

Petty minded English exceptionalism pissing all over the rest of us.

It's a petty, ignorant, spiteful, bullshit act.

If it came from a banana Republic it would be contemptible; from the UK it's deplorable.

It's terrible diplomacy and for what? Something the man on the street couldn't give a monkey's about, so it's not even a good populist move. All it does is make a few of the Brexit headbangers in the Tory party slightly tumescent.

Its all about Sovereignty init!

[Hal Jordan]

And now they've done a U-turn on the EU diplomats.

On a more positive note, Nissan stay in Sunderland and also seem to be pivoting towards EVs as they are looking to make it a battery production site as well. God knows they need the new Ariya to be a success because the Leaf is a good car, but is very long in the tooth, lacks active battery management and uses a charging plug that's now the Betamax of the EV world in Europe and the US.

[Insane_Homer]

Its all about Sovereignty init!

Tax dodging, it was always about tax dodging.

[tc27]

And now they've done a U-turn on the EU diplomats.

On a more positive note, Nissan stay in Sunderland and also seem to be pivoting towards EVs as they are looking to make it a battery production site as well. God knows they need the new Ariya to be a success because the Leaf is a good car, but is very long in the tooth, lacks active battery management and uses a charging plug that's now the Betamax of the EV world in Europe and the US.

Yeah quite lucky that high performance battery production looks like its going to become a UK speciality and the same time companies are pivoting more to EVs. The rules of origin requirements for selling UK cars into the EU are going to be strict so using Chinese battery packs was going to be a problem.

[Rinkals]

Its all about Sovereignty init!

Tax dodging, it was always about tax dodging.

I suspect that that is closer to the true objective (which falls under the Sovereignty umbrella in any case).

The negatives of Brexit far outweigh any positives (blue passports, bendy bananas and pint pots notwithstanding), so there has to be a more tangible benefit driving the fanatical pursuit of Brexit.

[Biffer]

Its all about Sovereignty init!

Tax dodging, it was always about tax dodging.

Naay, that was always a bit of a myth. The tax avoidance regs for Europe were based on the ones already in effect in the UK. Would've made hardly any difference.

[Paddington Bear]

And now they've done a U-turn on the EU diplomats.

On a more positive note, Nissan stay in Sunderland and also seem to be pivoting towards EVs as they are looking to make it a battery production site as well. God knows they need the new Ariya to be a success because the Leaf is a good car, but is very long in the tooth, lacks active battery management and uses a charging plug that's now the Betamax of the EV world in Europe and the US.

This really is excellent news.

[Hal Jordan]

And now they've done a U-turn on the EU diplomats.

On a more positive note, Nissan stay in Sunderland and also seem to be pivoting towards EVs as they are looking to make it a battery production site as well. God knows they need the new Ariya to be a success because the Leaf is a good car, but is very long in the tooth, lacks active battery management and uses a charging plug that's now the Betamax of the EV world in Europe and the US.

This really is excellent news.

It’s really just "things haven't changed and I wonder what the bung to Nissan was" news, but crowing over the shit Brexit is heaping on us is the wrong way to go about it. Shit on the lying enablers who are the architects of this farrago, sympathise with the casualties, especially those taken in by the bullshit, is my stance now.

[ASMO]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757931

But were we not told this was a great deal? hmmm was someone telling porkies?

[fishfoodie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757931

But were we not told this was a great deal? hmmm was someone telling porkies?

Just imagine how great that; "Australia Style", deal would have been !

and the bumblecunt was confident you'd, "Thrive mightly", under that one.....

[Insane_Homer]

Also belongs in the Tory Scum thread.

[I like neeps]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dApp_Other

Exporters advised by Department for International Trade officials to form EU-based companies to circumvent border issues

[Openside]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dApp_Other

Exporters advised by Department for International Trade officials to form EU-based companies to circumvent border issues

Sounds like the best of both worlds

[I like neeps]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dApp_Other

Exporters advised by Department for International Trade officials to form EU-based companies to circumvent border issues

Sounds like the best of both worlds

What's the benefit for the UK?

[fishfoodie]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dApp_Other

Sounds like the best of both worlds

What's the benefit for the UK?

Less lorries filling up the roads of Kent .... because the businesses will just move to the EU.

[Sandstorm]

More EU revenue from UK businesses. I thought Brexit was supposed to end that?

[I like neeps]

More EU revenue from UK businesses. I thought Brexit was supposed to end that?

Openside is going to be along in a minute to tell us how the EU getting jobs, profits, revenues, taxes, small business, big business and such is actually a win win.

Any minute now.

[fishfoodie]

Look on the bright side lads; this must the first time in recorded history, that a Government dept gave a company, accurate, & worthwhile advice on Brexit.

[Hal Jordan]

Look on the bright side lads; this must the first time in recorded history, that a Government dept gave a company, accurate, & worthwhile advice on Brexit.

Someone on Twitter summed it up as offical advice for individuals to rejoin the EU.

[Biffer]

Look on the bright side lads; this must the first time in recorded history, that a Government dept gave a company, accurate, & worthwhile advice on Brexit.

Someone on Twitter summed it up as offical advice for individuals to rejoin the EU.

It's what a lot of companies I deal with have done. Each time taking a handful of jobs and removing them from our economy.

[tc27]

Setting up subsidiaries in overseas markets is standard outside the single market.

Its added expense and many SMEs many not bother.


On the other hand EU based firms will do it here. A friend has started working in the newly established office/warehouse German boiler manufacturer.

In the end it does increase costs so its bad for consumers.

[fishfoodie]

Setting up subsidiaries in overseas markets is standard outside the single market.

Its added expense and many SMEs many not bother.


On the other hand EU based firms will do it here. A friend has started working in the newly established office/warehouse German boiler manufacturer.

In the end it does increase costs so its bad for consumers.

It's not just about setting up a back office, in the EU, to shuffle paperwork.

This is about moving where goods are produced, so they are produced inside the SM, so they don't have to deal with the all the Non-Tariff barriers the Tories have created.

[Hellraiser]

Look on the bright side lads; this must the first time in recorded history, that a Government dept gave a company, accurate, & worthwhile advice on Brexit.

Someone on Twitter summed it up as offical advice for individuals to rejoin the EU.

It's what a lot of companies I deal with have done. Each time taking a handful of jobs and removing them from our economy.

Death by a thousand cuts. We warned Bimbot et al about this in 2016.

[tc27]

Setting up subsidiaries in overseas markets is standard outside the single market.

Its added expense and many SMEs many not bother.


On the other hand EU based firms will do it here. A friend has started working in the newly established office/warehouse German boiler manufacturer.

In the end it does increase costs so its bad for consumers.

It's not just about setting up a back office, in the EU, to shuffle paperwork.

This is about moving where goods are produced, so they are produced inside the SM, so they don't have to deal with the all the Non-Tariff barriers the Tories have created.

That may happen but nots not what the DIT advice was about.

[Insane_Homer]

[Biffer]

Setting up subsidiaries in overseas markets is standard outside the single market.

Its added expense and many SMEs many not bother.


On the other hand EU based firms will do it here. A friend has started working in the newly established office/warehouse German boiler manufacturer.

In the end it does increase costs so its bad for consumers.

It's not just about setting up a back office, in the EU, to shuffle paperwork.

This is about moving where goods are produced, so they are produced inside the SM, so they don't have to deal with the all the Non-Tariff barriers the Tories have created.

Many of the companies I work with are doing it for services; they're setting up offices so that they can provide the technical support they give for their products. Because if you think that exporting goods is complex, you must not have looked at the services...

[fishfoodie]

Setting up subsidiaries in overseas markets is standard outside the single market.

Its added expense and many SMEs many not bother.


On the other hand EU based firms will do it here. A friend has started working in the newly established office/warehouse German boiler manufacturer.

In the end it does increase costs so its bad for consumers.

It's not just about setting up a back office, in the EU, to shuffle paperwork.

This is about moving where goods are produced, so they are produced inside the SM, so they don't have to deal with the all the Non-Tariff barriers the Tories have created.

Many of the companies I work with are doing it for services; they're setting up offices so that they can provide the technical support they give for their products. Because if you think that exporting goods is complex, you must not have looked at the services...

Ah but; the Goods side were promised a deal, & they did indeed get one; however threadbare; the Services side should have recognized the radio silence from the Tories on Services was, instructive ! ... and when the likes of JRM moved his business, they would have been idiots to not know how things would turn out. They should have started work the day after the vote; because there was only one outcome for them.

[tc27]

Setting up subsidiaries in overseas markets is standard outside the single market.

Its added expense and many SMEs many not bother.


On the other hand EU based firms will do it here. A friend has started working in the newly established office/warehouse German boiler manufacturer.

In the end it does increase costs so its bad for consumers.

It's not just about setting up a back office, in the EU, to shuffle paperwork.

This is about moving where goods are produced, so they are produced inside the SM, so they don't have to deal with the all the Non-Tariff barriers the Tories have created.

Many of the companies I work with are doing it for services; they're setting up offices so that they can provide the technical support they give for their products. Because if you think that exporting goods is complex, you must not have looked at the services...

Ok but again that works both ways...and again I am not saying its a good thing as its just drives up costs for consumers.

As an aside if Scottish independence transpires do you think Scotland will remain in a customs union and single market with the rest of the former UK to avoid these issues.? Because if not all these issues will arise and effect far more parts of the Scottish economy than brexit (3 or 4 times as much if we go on trade in goods - services probably more).

[Rinkals]

Someone on Twitter summed it up as offical advice for individuals to rejoin the EU.

It's what a lot of companies I deal with have done. Each time taking a handful of jobs and removing them from our economy.

Death by a thousand cuts. We warned Bimbot et al about this in 2016.

Pfft.

Project fear.

They were far too fly to be frightened into backing down.

Faith conquers all.

[Biffer]

It's not just about setting up a back office, in the EU, to shuffle paperwork.

This is about moving where goods are produced, so they are produced inside the SM, so they don't have to deal with the all the Non-Tariff barriers the Tories have created.

Many of the companies I work with are doing it for services; they're setting up offices so that they can provide the technical support they give for their products. Because if you think that exporting goods is complex, you must not have looked at the services...

Ok but again that works both ways...and again I am not saying its a good thing as its just drives up costs for consumers.

As an aside if Scottish independence transpires do you think Scotland will remain in a customs union and single market with the rest of the former UK to avoid these issues.? Because if not all these issues will arise and effect far more parts of the Scottish economy than brexit (3 or 4 times as much if we go on trade in goods - services probably more).

The difference with the works both ways thing us that it doesn't work equally in both directions. European companies would be setting up an office to access one country, UK companies would do it to access 27. For UK companies its a necessity, euro companies may choose to engage less with the UK market.

[Tichtheid]

There is a long post by Fish, he of Marillion fame, doing the rounds on FB, he talks about the problems musicians now face when touring in the EU.

I'll try to summarise some of the points, no doubt I'll lose some of it.

The costs of visas for touring come to £250 per person per country, he has a band of 6 musicians including himself plus a back tech team of 4, so £2500 per country.

The carnets they need signed at every border only used to be needed in Norway and Switzerland, border patrols would be perfectly within their rights to examine every item they carry with them to make sure they are not importing or exporting anything for sale.

The checks add time on to journeys, they need to hire two drivers because it's not worth the risk of missing or being late for a gig as a result of a driver being out of time allowance. There is the added cost of hotel and catering bills.

There used to be a reciprocal tax agreement, he gives the example of paying 19% tax in Germany off the top of gig fee, but that could be put down against UK tax because he had a German agent for those gigs there. At the time of writing he had no idea if this agreement was still in place, it applies to every country they tour in the EU.
On top of that they have to register for NI in each country now.

In order to sell merch, which makes or breaks a tour's viability, they have to register for VAT in each country they tour, but all VAT on goods has to be paid in full before any merch leaves the UK. He gives an example of £13K he has to pay out in VAT for a tour bus in Germany alone which he becomes liable for until the accountant he now has to hire can file a claim for it on his return.

Then there is the issue of 90 days in every 180 you are allowed to be in the EU, many techs make their living from touring with more than one band, they will have previously been on the road for ten, eleven months of the year, riggers, sound engineers, lighting techs etc etc, it's better for bands to hire local in the EU now.

The UK music industry is huge worth several billion pounds, live shows have become the main income for artists because streaming has all but killed off album sales.

The bottom line is that it will still be okay for the Iron Maidens, the Adeles, The Cures, they will have teams dedicated to sorting this stuff out, they always had that, but where do the next generation of these bands come from?
The current crop of bands and artists below that level are going to struggle.

Fish says he has been looking for answers to dozens of questions, but because everything was left so late he is faced with bookings and outgoings for a tour late this year, but has no idea if it is going to be financially viable to do it.


I know two people from separate bands other than Fish who are in a similar situation, much of their income was from touring in the EU, another friend is a guitar maker, he reckons he won't sell any more instruments to anyone in the EU, his costs have gone up 20 to 25% for customers there.

[dpedin]

There is a long post by Fish, he of Marillion fame, doing the rounds on FB, he talks about the problems musicians now face when touring in the EU.

I'll try to summarise some of the points, no doubt I'll lose some of it.

The costs of visas for touring come to £250 per person per country, he has a band of 6 musicians including himself plus a back tech team of 4, so £2500 per country.

The carnets they need signed at every border only used to be needed in Norway and Switzerland, border patrols would be perfectly within their rights to examine every item they carry with them to make sure they are not importing or exporting anything for sale.

The checks add time on to journeys, they need to hire two drivers because it's not worth the risk of missing or being late for a gig as a result of a driver being out of time allowance. There is the added cost of hotel and catering bills.

There used to be a reciprocal tax agreement, he gives the example of paying 19% tax in Germany off the top of gig fee, but that could be put down against UK tax because he had a German agent for those gigs there. At the time of writing he had no idea if this agreement was still in place, it applies to every country they tour in the EU.
On top of that they have to register for NI in each country now.

In order to sell merch, which makes or breaks a tour's viability, they have to register for VAT in each country they tour, but all VAT on goods has to be paid in full before any merch leaves the UK. He gives an example of £13K he has to pay out in VAT for a tour bus in Germany alone which he becomes liable for until the accountant he now has to hire can file a claim for it on his return.

Then there is the issue of 90 days in every 180 you are allowed to be in the EU, many techs make their living from touring with more than one band, they will have previously been on the road for ten, eleven months of the year, riggers, sound engineers, lighting techs etc etc, it's better for bands to hire local in the EU now.

The UK music industry is huge worth several billion pounds, live shows have become the main income for artists because streaming has all but killed off album sales.

The bottom line is that it will still be okay for the Iron Maidens, the Adeles, The Cures, they will have teams dedicated to sorting this stuff out, they always had that, but where do the next generation of these bands come from?
The current crop of bands and artists below that level are going to struggle.

Fish says he has been looking for answers to dozens of questions, but because everything was left so late he is faced with bookings and outgoings for a tour late this year, but has no idea if it is going to be financially viable to do it.


I know two people from separate bands other than Fish who are in a similar situation, much of their income was from touring in the EU, another friend is a guitar maker, he reckons he won't sell any more instruments to anyone in the EU, his costs have gone up 20 to 25% for customers there.

Sovereignty innit! I hope he plays God Save the Queen at the end of every gig now as a thank you to the Brexiteers for their services to the music industry?