Why Aren't Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown Included in Discussions About the All Black Coaching Job?

[FujiKiwi]

This baffles me. In threads on PR and NPR there is plenty of talk about how Robertson—who apparently proposed Leon MacDonald as a member of his coaching group—was passed over for Foster.

But Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown's achievements with Japan have shown their coaching prowess on the international stage.

Why aren't these two in the conversation as well?

[Jb1981]

Jamie Joseph withdrew from AB coaching contention. The final decision was between Robertson and his team and Foster (who was strangely allowed to confirm assistants after the fact).

You could argue Joseph read the signs and chose to drop out, but the conversations now are about the realistic options the choice was made from.

[FujiKiwi]

Yeah. I got the sense he’d pulled out.

But a lot of the online discussions run along the lines of how good Robertson is and what a travesty it is he was rebuffed. A hypothetical Joseph tenure as coach isn’t often discussed.

[Mr Bungle]

Jamie Joseph withdrew from AB coaching contention.

/EndThread

[FujiKiwi]

Jamie Joseph withdrew from AB coaching contention.

/EndThread

Yes but as mentioned above he possibly withdrew because he saw Foster’s appointment was a formality. Which it was. Seems odd to just then blot his achievements from history when discussing alternatives to the status quo.

[Monkey Magic]

Joseph pulled out saying he would stay loyal to Japan.

Aka he had a good offer from Japan and didn't see any point compromising that to go through a Mickey mouse selection process for the ABs

[Mr Bungle]

Joseph pulled out saying he would stay loyal to Japan.

Aka he had a good offer from Japan and didn't see any point compromising that to go through a Mickey mouse selection process for the ABs

And the fact Robertson was A) keen and B) still seen by most as the best alternative to Foster, he's the coach that is talked about with what might have been. He'll get his chance, Joseph may even too, but Joseph ruled himself out of the conversation very early on.

[FujiKiwi]

I see what you guys are saying. Robertson applied. Joseph didn’t. I get it. But Joseph most likely didn’t apply because Foster’s appointment was fait accomplit. Joseph wasn’t ever going to get it and neither was Robertson . Still seems odd to discuss one wistfully and not the other, but I can see the line of reasoning.

[Carter's Choice]

I see what you guys are saying. Robertson applied. Joseph didn’t. I get it. But Joseph most likely didn’t apply because Foster’s appointment was fait accomplit. Joseph wasn’t ever going to get it and neither was Robertson . Still seems odd to discuss one wistfully and not the other, but I can see the line of reasoning.

Are you seriously wondering why NZ Rugby fans are talking more about Scott Robertson than Jamie Joseph? Have a think about why Scott Robertson might have a higher profile in NZ Rugby right now?

[FujiKiwi]

I see what you guys are saying. Robertson applied. Joseph didn’t. I get it. But Joseph most likely didn’t apply because Foster’s appointment was fait accomplit. Joseph wasn’t ever going to get it and neither was Robertson . Still seems odd to discuss one wistfully and not the other, but I can see the line of reasoning.

Are you seriously wondering why NZ Rugby fans are talking more about Scott Robertson than Jamie Joseph? Have a think about why Scott Robertson might have a higher profile in NZ Rugby right now?

You don’t think Joseph’s success as an international coach is worth discussing when considering All Black coaches?

And you don’t believe kiwi rugby fans are sophisticated enough to keep the 2019 RWC in mind because they’re dizzily wrapped up in the current Super Rugby season?

[CrazyIslander]

Fozzie is only there until Gatland finishes with the Lionz.

[Jb1981]

Fozzie is only there until Gatland finishes with the Lionz.

The stuff of nightmares. Although, Gatland is quickly building the Super Rugby record to be Foster’s successor.

[CrazyIslander]

Fozzie is only there until Gatland finishes with the Lionz.

The stuff of nightmares. Although, Gatland is quickly building the Super Rugby record to be Foster’s successor.

I reckon Gatland would be good for the ABs. I dont think Fozzie would be successful though. NZRU deliberately chose Fozzie as a stop cap measure.

[Trapper]

I don’t want Gatland anywhere near the ABs, he’s old school, like Foster. So I guess Foster is only really gonna get 1 season to prove he’s good enough anyway if this year is a write off.

[Kiwias]

Yeah. I got the sense he’d pulled out.

But a lot of the online discussions run along the lines of how good Robertson is and what a travesty it is he was rebuffed. A hypothetical Joseph tenure as coach isn’t often discussed.

Joseph made it clear early on that he planned to stay in his current position as head coach of Japan so any discussion of his merits would be a total waste of time. That does not mean he will not enter the discussion as AB coach at some point down the line.

[Carter's Choice]

You don’t think Joseph’s success as an international coach is worth discussing when considering All Black coaches?

And you don’t believe kiwi rugby fans are sophisticated enough to keep the 2019 RWC in mind because they’re dizzily wrapped up in the current Super Rugby season?

If Jamie Joseph was coaching a SR team, which was involved in a top of the table clash this weekend, then I am sure we would be chatting more about him.

[FujiKiwi]

Some disingenuous posting from the Canterbury contingent.

Yes, a Jamie Josephs appointment is hypothetical. So is a Scott Robertson appointment.

It's great that we're all excited about a fun local rugby competition which Scott Robertson's star-studded team is doing well in.

But the efforts to set aside an international coaching record in a discussion about an international coaching appointment is odd.

It's almost as if some posters don't want a robust debate around what an ideal AB coach's CV would look like.

[Kiwias]

Some disingenuous posting from the Canterbury contingent.

Yes, a Jamie Josephs appointment is hypothetical. So is a Scott Robertson appointment.

It's great that we're all excited about a fun local rugby competition which Scott Robertson's star-studded team is doing well in.

But the efforts to set aside an international coaching record in a discussion about an international coaching appointment is odd.

It's almost as if some posters don't want a robust debate around what an ideal AB coach's CV would look like.

What on earth are you talking about? Joseph's qualities were discussed to death on PR in the lead-up to Foster's appointment but he made it all irrelevant by withdrawing from consideration. Razor's appointment was not hypothetical as he was in the race to the very end.

[Jb1981]

Robertson’s star-studded side? That’s a bit disingenuous too. He inherited a team that hadn’t won a title for ten years and who weren’t being tipped to even make the playoffs in 2017. Crusader supporters were hoping for a good re-building year, not much more.

Looking at the guys performing now, how many are the young contingent? These are guys that Robertson has brought through.

As for an ideal coaching CV, right now I would like someone with a proven history of taking a good team that has become a bit stale and making them champions. Yes, Robertson has arguably worked with better talent, but that’s a tick in his box. The AB’s aren’t Japan, the job won’t be about lifting plucky underdogs. I am one hundred percent objective between Joseph and Robertson. There is no provincial bias here. The final thing I would look for on the ideal CV is an ability to breakdance.

[Mr Bungle]

Fozzie is only there until Gatland finishes with the Lionz.

The stuff of nightmares. Although, Gatland is quickly building the Super Rugby record to be Foster’s successor.

I reckon Gatland would be good for the ABs. I dont think Fozzie would be successful though. NZRU deliberately chose Fozzie as a stop cap measure.

Foster is not going to select any debutantes?

[CrazyIslander]

The stuff of nightmares. Although, Gatland is quickly building the Super Rugby record to be Foster’s successor.

I reckon Gatland would be good for the ABs. I dont think Fozzie would be successful though. NZRU deliberately chose Fozzie as a stop cap measure.

Foster is not going to select any debutantes?

He'll blood youngsters for Gats then he'll slot back to assistant role.

[Mr Bungle]

I reckon Gatland would be good for the ABs. I dont think Fozzie would be successful though. NZRU deliberately chose Fozzie as a stop cap measure.

Foster is not going to select any debutantes?

He'll blood youngsters for Gats then he'll slot back to assistant role.

[FujiKiwi]

The stuff of nightmares. Although, Gatland is quickly building the Super Rugby record to be Foster’s successor.

I reckon Gatland would be good for the ABs. I dont think Fozzie would be successful though. NZRU deliberately chose Fozzie as a stop cap measure.

Foster is not going to select any debutantes?

Is this the first NPR boredism?

Crazy, not that it's a big deal, but the expression is "stopgap".

[CrazyIslander]

I feel like an asshole. Maybe I should support the Crusaders.

[FujiKiwi]

I feel like an asshole. Maybe I should support the Crusaders.

Mate. It's not a big mistake at all. You should be much more worried about your judgment in suggesting Gatland as a future AB coach.

[FujiKiwi]

What on earth are you talking about? Joseph's qualities were discussed to death on PR in the lead-up to Foster's appointment but he made it all irrelevant by withdrawing from consideration. Razor's appointment was not hypothetical as he was in the race to the very end.

It's hypothetical now. He wasn't selected. Both Joseph and Robertson have potential pathways to the AB coaching booth now. And what a rich discussion can be held around the different attributes and drawbacks each would bring. It's weird that we're avoiding that discussion.

[Ymx]

Foster is not going to select any debutantes?

He'll blood youngsters for Gats then he'll slot back to assistant role.

[Ymx]

In any case Robertson wanted Brown. But Brown chose to be loyal to Joseph.

That’s where the thing unravelled.

[Enzedder]

I see what you guys are saying. Robertson applied. Joseph didn’t. I get it. But Joseph most likely didn’t apply because Foster’s appointment was fait accomplit. Joseph wasn’t ever going to get it and neither was Robertson . Still seems odd to discuss one wistfully and not the other, but I can see the line of reasoning.

And yet you left out Rennie who is surely in the same boat.

[FujiKiwi]

I see what you guys are saying. Robertson applied. Joseph didn’t. I get it. But Joseph most likely didn’t apply because Foster’s appointment was fait accomplit. Joseph wasn’t ever going to get it and neither was Robertson . Still seems odd to discuss one wistfully and not the other, but I can see the line of reasoning.

And yet you left out Rennie who is surely in the same boat.

That’s actually a fair call. Yes, Rennie is absolutely in the same boat. And may bolster his CV a lot over the next two years.

[Mr Bungle]

Why oh why is FujiKiwi not talking about Rennie’s prospects as AB coach? Bloody sickening.

[FujiKiwi]

Why oh why is FujiKiwi not talking about Rennie’s prospects as AB coach? Sickening.

Upon deep reflection I realize I have myself been guilty of what I have accused others of: being too narrow in discussing AB coach contenders.

I will now take 5 minutes off posting on this thread to listen, learn, further reflect on my inappropriate posting and find ways to make amends to Dave Rennie.

[Jb1981]

I think a letter of apology is in order too.

[FujiKiwi]

I think a letter of apology is in order too.

Dear Whataboutery Exponents/Chiefs Historians/Kyran Bracken Fan Club

I am sorry I did not immediately think of the Chiefs coach from 2012/2013 as being of the same calibre as the coaching team that guided Japan to the RWC quarterfinals last year.

Kind regards

FujiKiwi

[Ymx]

I think a letter of apology is in order too.

Dear Whataboutery Exponents/Chiefs Historians/Kyran Bracken Fan Club

I am sorry I did not immediately think of the Chiefs coach from 2012/2013 as being of the same calibre as the coaching team that guided Japan to the RWC quarterfinals last year.

Kind regards

FujiKiwi

Good point, you didn’t mention Wayne Smith

[ManhoodObesity]

Why oh why is FujiKiwi not talking about Rennie’s prospects as AB coach? Sickening.

Upon deep reflection I realize I have myself been guilty of what I have accused others of: being too narrow in discussing AB coach contenders.

I will now take 5 minutes off posting on this thread to listen, learn, further reflect on my inappropriate posting and find ways to make amends to Dave Rennie.

Didn’t Dave Rennie threaten to resign from the Wallabies coaching job if Castle was going to be axed?

Says a lot about the bloke tbh

[Kiwias]

What on earth are you talking about? Joseph's qualities were discussed to death on PR in the lead-up to Foster's appointment but he made it all irrelevant by withdrawing from consideration. Razor's appointment was not hypothetical as he was in the race to the very end.

It's hypothetical now. He wasn't selected. Both Joseph and Robertson have potential pathways to the AB coaching booth now. And what a rich discussion can be held around the different attributes and drawbacks each would bring. It's weird that we're avoiding that discussion.

There are other coaches in the mix when it comes time to give Fozzie the boot and then would be an excellent time to have the discussion. Fozzie has not even had one game in charge yet so I guess I am saying I don't share your sense of urgency for the discussion over his replacement.

[coldtowel3478]

I have been lurking this forum for the last three weeks and I had to bite after being absolutely dismayed from reading the amount of misinformation being thrown around from FuijiKiwi regarding Scott Robertson on here. So I'll make my first long post on this forum dedicated to this topic.

Robertson is not simply a product of his players, as much as FuijiKiwi wishes to believe... The Title winning Crusaders squad in 2017 was significantly weaker and much less experienced (almost the entire backline under age of 23 FFS!) than the Lions, Hurricanes, Highlanders and Chiefs on paper.

Also, not many people are aware of this, but in 2007 Robertson transformed (the worst club in Chch - Sumner) from last to Premier Champions.

Robertson also coached Canterbury to 3/4 titles as head coach between 2013-2016 - during this period his Canterbury squad was plagued with injuries (often 3 players deep in key positions) and subject to the most Cantab players away on All Black duty in modern NPC history.

These simple facts all derail the increasingly lazy and convenient argument that Robertson is merely a product of his players.


For good measure let's compare Robertson and Joseph's records as professional coaches:


Robertson as Canterbury assistant coach (2008-2012): Five titles won.

Robertson as Canterbury head coach (2013-2016): Three titles won.

Robertson with NZ U-20's (2015-2016): One title won - (The first NZ U-20's Title since 2011...)

Robertson as Crusaders head coach (2017-2020): 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st* - (We assume after last night...)


Joseph as Wellington assistant coach (2003–2007): Zero titles won.

Joseph as Wellington head coach (2007-2010): Zero titles won.

Joseph as Highlanders coach without Tony Brown (2011-2013): 11th, 9th, 14th...

Joseph as Highlanders coach with Tony Brown's assistance (2014-2016): 5th, 1st, 3rd


The key conclusion here is that Brown is more responsible for the success of Highlanders and Japan at the 2019 world cup than Joseph.

On the other-hand Robertson has achieved immeasurable success (12 titles in total, and looking like 13 after last night's win over the Blues) without the assistance of a world class assistant coach.

Jamie Joseph has the smartest attack coach and most gifted technical assistant in world rugby - He isn't half the coach he is without Tony Brown.

Long story short, Scott Robertson has a long history of success as a coach at every level.

Jamie Joseph did not - until Tony Brown came along.

Rennie is in the same boat - Rennie won two titles with the assistance of Wayne Smith, but nothing after Smith left.

He coached Manawatu for 8 years and they finished at the bottom of the table for every year except for 2011, losing 2nd Division finalists.

With three years with Wellington between 2000-2002 Rennie won 1 NPC title, a very solid effort.

Rennie's crowning achievement aside from Chiefs was the 3 consecutive NZ U-20 Titles he oversaw as head coach between 2009-2011.

Managed to get Glasgow to losing finalists in 2018/2019 season. They couldn't manage to reach the playoffs in the 2019/20 season.



Final Power Rankings:


1 - Scott Robertson

2 - Tony Brown

3 - Dave Rennie

4 - Jamie Joseph

[FujiKiwi]

There are other coaches in the mix when it comes time to give Fozzie the boot and then would be an excellent time to have the discussion. Fozzie has not even had one game in charge yet so I guess I am saying I don't share your sense of urgency for the discussion over his replacement.

It comes up all the time in threads, the most recent of which was the Crusaders vs Blues thread this morning where trapper lamented Robertson not being in charge. It's often just presented as the default alternative option.

[FujiKiwi]

I have been lurking this forum for the last three weeks and I had to bite after being absolutely dismayed from reading the amount of misinformation being thrown around from FuijiKiwi regarding Scott Robertson on here. So I'll make my first long post on this forum dedicated to this topic.

Robertson is not simply a product of his players, as much as FuijiKiwi wishes to believe... The Title winning Crusaders squad in 2017 was significantly weaker and much less experienced (almost the entire backline under age of 23 FFS!) than the Lions, Hurricanes, Highlanders and Chiefs on paper.

Also, not many people are aware of this, but in 2007 Robertson transformed (the worst club in Chch) Summer from last to Champions.

Robertson also coached Canterbury to 3/4 titles as head coach between 2013-2016 - during this period his Canterbury squad was plagued with injuries (often 3 players deep in key positions) and subject to the most Cantab players away on All Black duty in modern NPC history.

These simple facts all derail the increasingly lazy and convenient argument that Robertson is merely a product of his players.


For good measure let's compare Robertson and Joseph's records as professional coaches:


Robertson as Canterbury assistant coach (2008-2012): Five titles won.

Robertson as Canterbury head coach (2013-2016): Three titles won.

Robertson with NZ U-20's (2015-2016): One title won - (The first NZ U-20's Title since 2011...)

Robertson as Crusaders head coach (2017-2020): 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st* - (We assume after last night...)


Joseph as Wellington assistant coach (2003–2007): Zero titles won.

Joseph as Wellington head coach (2007-2010): Zero titles won.

Joseph as Highlanders coach without Tony Brown (2011-2013): 11th, 9th, 14th...

Joseph as Highlanders coach with Tony Brown's assistance (2014-2016): 5th, 1st, 3rd


The key conclusion here is that Brown is more responsible for the success of Highlanders and Japan at the 2019 world cup than Joseph.

On the other-hand Robertson has achieved immeasurable success (12 titles in total, and looking like 13 after last night's win over the Blues) without the assistance of a world class assistant coach.

Jamie Joseph has the smartest attack coach and most gifted technical assistant in world rugby - He is half the coach he is without Tony Brown.

Long story short, Scott Robertson has a long history of success as a coach at every level...

Jamie Joseph did not - until Tony Brown came along.

Rennie is in the same boat - Rennie won two titles with the assistance of Wayne Smith, but nothing after Smith left.

He coached Manawatu for 8 years and they finished at the bottom of the table for every year except for 2011, losing 2nd Division finalists.

With three years with Wellington between 2000-2002 Rennie won 1 NPC title, a very solid effort.

Rennie's crowning achievement aside from Chiefs was the 3 consecutive NZ U-20 Titles he oversaw as head coach between 2009-2011.

Managed to get Glasgow to losing finalists in 2018/2019 season. They couldn't manage to reach the playoffs in the 2019/20 season.



Final Power Rankings:


1 - Scott Robertson

2 - Tony Brown

3 - Dave Rennie

4 - Jamie Joseph

That's a very thorough post, and largely convincing. I love the break down of details there. . If Tony Brown is astute as you say he is—essentially the guy that does all the work and smart thinking for which Joseph gets the credit for—why do you think he chooses to stick with such a flawed coach? Surely, if he is as insightful as you suggest, he'd see right through the Joseph charade?