The Official English Rugby Thread

[Paddington Bear]

I imagine that the discussion went

"Just a blip, give 'em a chance to redeem themselves against Italy."
"Same team again then, Eddie?"
"Yep. Now someone give me a statistic about box kicking so I can feed it to the Press."

I fear this will be it!!!

Given the covid bubbles it's probably the way forward. The Sarries players have to get up to speed.

[JM2K6]

I think he'll sacrifice a few players like he always does - some newbie will get it in the neck, or an old guy not guaranteed a place, like Wilson.

[SaintK]

Sounds like only Sinckler and Mako added to the training squad this week
So another Sarries player who hasn't had any rugby for weeks and weeks coming back from an achilles problem and Sinckler who hasn't played for 3 weeks and was way below his best when he copped the suspension

[sockwithaticket]

<rewinds>

"OK, maybe THIS time Farrell will pass to teammates in space instead of kicking it straight to a Scot"

"Nope, okay."

<rewinds>

"OK, maybe THIS time..."

Eddie, we've rewatched this 100 times, and despite not having a single scot in front of them to block them, our players still didn't line up with Farrell for the best chance to chase, and still didn't chase hard enough.

Oh yes. It seems very obvious to me that this sort of thing will be used to criticise the players for not executing the strategy properly, rather than bothering to examine whether the strategy and the system are in fact a tactical cul-de-sac made worse by dismal selection decisions.

Very well put.

[sockwithaticket]

I imagine that the discussion went

"Just a blip, give 'em a chance to redeem themselves against Italy."
"Same team again then, Eddie?"
"Yep. Now someone give me a statistic about box kicking so I can feed it to the Press."

I fear this will be it!!!

Given the covid bubbles it's probably the way forward. The Sarries players have to get up to speed.

They can do so from the bench.

LCD for George
Lawes for Itoje (that man pens cannot be rewarded with another start)
Either Willis or Earl for Billy (my preference is bin him out of the 23 altogether, but there's zero chance of that)
Ford for Farrell
Malins for Daly

The Sarries lads can get 20 minutes if it's all going well.

[JM2K6]

The penalties weren't great but Itoje had a huge game outside of that. He should start (and be captain, probably).

[JM2K6]

I did some number crunching.

Farrell starting at ten (including the Brisbane game where he moved to 12 after 29 minutes and Ford played 10 the entire time) in international rugby: 60% win rate
Ford starting at ten (not including the above game): 80%

Last five years:

Farrell: 64% (same caveat)
Ford: 81.5% (ditto)

One of them is, when looking at results, a mediocre international 10. The other is superb.

Freddie Burns, Andy Goode, Charlie Hodgson are all marginally worse than Farrell's career win percentage at 10 despite playing for significantly worse teams.

Finally, Ford's win stats for coming off the bench? 57%. Don't do it.

[SaintK]

The penalties weren't great but Itoje had a huge game outside of that. He should start (and be captain, probably).

He gave away 3 of the 15 penalties. Otherwise was England's best player by a distance and should be the first name on the team sheet

[Paddington Bear]

Championship is a go:

The RFU has today confirmed the structure of the league with 11 clubs electing to invest in Covid testing under the elite sport guidance framework following loan assurances from the Government as part of the Winter Sports Survival Package.



Operating under the elite sport framework, teams will play each other home or away producing 10 competitive matches over 11 league rounds. This will be followed by a two-leg play off final (home and away) between the top two placed teams in the league to determine which club will earn promotion to the Gallagher Premiership for the 2021/22 season, provided it meets the current Minimum Standards Criteria.



London Scottish felt unable to participate this season but will return in the 2021/22 season. As a result, there will be one bye week per team and three reserve weekends (3/4 April, 8/9 May and 5/6 June) during the season.



Given the likelihood of no crowds being allowed for some of the season and wishing to take Greene King IPA Championship rugby to a wider audience, the RFU are currently finalising broadcast plans with the intention to stream as many of the matches as possible.

[ASMO]

Willing to bet he will pick broadly the same team, spank the hapless Italy and then say i told you so, all is well.

fucking hate the man now

[SaintK]

Championship is a go:

The RFU has today confirmed the structure of the league with 11 clubs electing to invest in Covid testing under the elite sport guidance framework following loan assurances from the Government as part of the Winter Sports Survival Package.



Operating under the elite sport framework, teams will play each other home or away producing 10 competitive matches over 11 league rounds. This will be followed by a two-leg play off final (home and away) between the top two placed teams in the league to determine which club will earn promotion to the Gallagher Premiership for the 2021/22 season, provided it meets the current Minimum Standards Criteria.



London Scottish felt unable to participate this season but will return in the 2021/22 season. As a result, there will be one bye week per team and three reserve weekends (3/4 April, 8/9 May and 5/6 June) during the season.



Given the likelihood of no crowds being allowed for some of the season and wishing to take Greene King IPA Championship rugby to a wider audience, the RFU are currently finalising broadcast plans with the intention to stream as many of the matches as possible.

Come on Ealing Trailfinders

[Ovals]

Willing to bet he will pick broadly the same team, spank the hapless Italy and then say i told you so, all is well.

fucking hate the man now

I'm certainly getting incredibly tired of his insistence in picking Youngs, Farrell, Vunipola and playing Daly at FB. You don't need to be a world class coach to see that those selections are not just stopping us making progress, they are significantly contributing to a decline in our performances.

Bad selections and a shite gameplan make watching England very torturous.

[sockwithaticket]

Championship is a go:

The RFU has today confirmed the structure of the league with 11 clubs electing to invest in Covid testing under the elite sport guidance framework following loan assurances from the Government as part of the Winter Sports Survival Package.



Operating under the elite sport framework, teams will play each other home or away producing 10 competitive matches over 11 league rounds. This will be followed by a two-leg play off final (home and away) between the top two placed teams in the league to determine which club will earn promotion to the Gallagher Premiership for the 2021/22 season, provided it meets the current Minimum Standards Criteria.



London Scottish felt unable to participate this season but will return in the 2021/22 season. As a result, there will be one bye week per team and three reserve weekends (3/4 April, 8/9 May and 5/6 June) during the season.



Given the likelihood of no crowds being allowed for some of the season and wishing to take Greene King IPA Championship rugby to a wider audience, the RFU are currently finalising broadcast plans with the intention to stream as many of the matches as possible.

Come on Ealing Trailfinders

Be interesting to see what side Sarries put out for the 'real' games.

Glanced at the team sheet for the weekend's game against Ealing and didn't recognise many names.

[ASMO]

Willing to bet he will pick broadly the same team, spank the hapless Italy and then say i told you so, all is well.

fucking hate the man now

I'm certainly getting incredibly tired of his insistence in picking Youngs, Farrell, Vunipola and playing Daly at FB. You don't need to be a world class coach to see that those selections are not just stopping us making progress, they are significantly contributing to a decline in our performances.

Bad selections and a shite gameplan make watching England very torturous.

Numbers don't always tell the whole story but England had ZERO linebreaks against Scotland, that in itself tells you all you need to know about this team.

[sockwithaticket]

Mako and Sinckler back in, West and Williams sent back to clubs.

Wasps will be happy to get a loosehead back. McIntyre re-injured himself straight after coming on at the weekend, so if Eddie hung onto West we'd be back to having just Harris fit.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I did some number crunching.

Farrell starting at ten (including the Brisbane game where he moved to 12 after 29 minutes and Ford played 10 the entire time) in international rugby: 60% win rate
Ford starting at ten (not including the above game): 80%

Last five years:

Farrell: 64% (same caveat)
Ford: 81.5% (ditto)

One of them is, when looking at results, a mediocre international 10. The other is superb.

Freddie Burns, Andy Goode, Charlie Hodgson are all marginally worse than Farrell's career win percentage at 10 despite playing for significantly worse teams.

Finally, Ford's win stats for coming off the bench? 57%. Don't do it.

Farrell has to be shitting the bed in some style to be replaced so there's a cause/effect issue there.

If only Ford hadn't had those two disastrous kicking performances then we probably wouldn't be talking about Farrell at all.

[PCPhil]

Willing to bet he will pick broadly the same team, spank the hapless Italy and then say i told you so, all is well.

fucking hate the man now

I'm certainly getting incredibly tired of his insistence in picking Youngs, Farrell, Vunipola and playing Daly at FB. You don't need to be a world class coach to see that those selections are not just stopping us making progress, they are significantly contributing to a decline in our performances.

Bad selections and a shite gameplan make watching England very torturous.

Numbers don't always tell the whole story but England had ZERO linebreaks against Scotland, that in itself tells you all you need to know about this team.

That is the most worrying thing. We really seem to have gone back to the days of being bewildered that our forwards aren't swotting away the weedy opposition allowing a healthy lead to be built before letting the 'girls' have a play later on. Unless there is a missed tackle we don't look like having the ability to get through anywhere. And when there is a chance to run with numbers then our current 10 will kick it away.

Hate to get into the soccer mentality of always blame the manager but players being picked out of position is mad. Farrell is/was a very good centre (seems so long he played there that starting to forget). Not a 10. Daley used to be a good player as well.

[Paddington Bear]

Daly's drop off is one I struggle to explain - is it just that oppo's have worked out he can't catch?

[Raggs]

Daly's drop off is one I struggle to explain - is it just that oppo's have worked out he can't catch?

I'd guess so, along with his less than stellar one on one tackling. At wing and 13, he can rely on his pace to take them down as they take the outside etc, or his inside man. He gets more exposed at fullback.

[Hal Jordan]

Just picked up from Twitter that Dave Egerton, the ex-Bath and England player, has died of Covid after being admitted to hospital on Saturday.

[ASMO]

Just picked up from Twitter that Dave Egerton, the ex-Bath and England player, has died of Covid after being admitted to hospital on Saturday.

Yep, saw that on FB, someone form my era, brings it home really.

[sockwithaticket]

Quins mob must be delighted to see Smith re-sign long term.

In completely different signing news, Wasps have raided Pirates for a loosehead and scrum half on short term deals. Most likely won't see a match squad, but we're down to two available options in each position so any more injuries/call ups would see the cover having to play.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Quins mob must be delighted to see Smith re-sign long term.

In completely different signing news, Wasps have raided Pirates for a loosehead and scrum half on short term deals. Most likely won't see a match squad, but we're down to two available options in each position so any more injuries/call ups would see the cover having to play.

That's a big yes from me at least.

And for the moment, I'm delighted with Eddie Jones' stubborn refusal to let Marcus anywhere near the England setup

[JM2K6]

Yeah, I think Marcus coming into the England setup and being asked to play like current England could well be a damaging blow to his career.

The idea of a team containing the likes of Willis, Simmonds, Smith, A Good 9, and Malins running at sides is absolutely mouthwatering but I appreciate we're approaching "Saxons are better than the first team" level of dreaming here.

VERY relieved he's re-signed for Quins. I was gobsmacked to read the rumours about us offering him to various clubs. Hopefully that was just agent bullshit and nothing else.

[Ovals]

Yeah, I think Marcus coming into the England setup and being asked to play like current England could well be a damaging blow to his career.

The idea of a team containing the likes of Willis, Simmonds, Smith, A Good 9, and Malins running at sides is absolutely mouthwatering but I appreciate we're approaching "Saxons are better than the first team" level of dreaming here.

VERY relieved he's re-signed for Quins. I was gobsmacked to read the rumours about us offering him to various clubs. Hopefully that was just agent bullshit and nothing else.

Smith is very high quality - and has that air of composure about him.

I can't understand why Eddie is selecting Umaga in his squads ahead of Smith and Simmonds. Umaga just looks out of his depth half of the time in the GP. He's been nothing short of awful this season.

But it's all pipe dreams while Eddie is running the show. Farrell and Youngs will be there again, to stifle any attacking threat, and Billy will plod around at number 8 while Daly, when he's not missing tackles, looks like a rabbit under the high balls.

We should still beat Italy to ensure that Eddie can claim we're back on track.

[Margin__Walker]

Chris Foy in the Mail going with Ford/Farrell 10/12 combo. He's usually right.

Nothing else concrete

[JM2K6]

Yeah, I think Marcus coming into the England setup and being asked to play like current England could well be a damaging blow to his career.

The idea of a team containing the likes of Willis, Simmonds, Smith, A Good 9, and Malins running at sides is absolutely mouthwatering but I appreciate we're approaching "Saxons are better than the first team" level of dreaming here.

VERY relieved he's re-signed for Quins. I was gobsmacked to read the rumours about us offering him to various clubs. Hopefully that was just agent bullshit and nothing else.

Smith is very high quality - and has that air of composure about him.

I can't understand why Eddie is selecting Umaga in his squads ahead of Smith and Simmonds. Umaga just looks out of his depth half of the time in the GP. He's been nothing short of awful this season.

But it's all pipe dreams while Eddie is running the show. Farrell and Youngs will be there again, to stifle any attacking threat, and Billy will plod around at number 8 while Daly, when he's not missing tackles, looks like a rabbit under the high balls.

We should still beat Italy to ensure that Eddie can claim we're back on track.

I too have no idea why the kid with the NZ father and the nephew of a legendary All Black is getting preferential treatment. Totes a mysery.


Seriously though, no point Smith being near the squad if Eddie continues on this self-destructive anti-rugby path for England. We can play rugby! We've even done it under Eddie! Stop being such a dick about it and let them play!

[Ovals]

Yeah, I think Marcus coming into the England setup and being asked to play like current England could well be a damaging blow to his career.

The idea of a team containing the likes of Willis, Simmonds, Smith, A Good 9, and Malins running at sides is absolutely mouthwatering but I appreciate we're approaching "Saxons are better than the first team" level of dreaming here.

VERY relieved he's re-signed for Quins. I was gobsmacked to read the rumours about us offering him to various clubs. Hopefully that was just agent bullshit and nothing else.

Smith is very high quality - and has that air of composure about him.

I can't understand why Eddie is selecting Umaga in his squads ahead of Smith and Simmonds. Umaga just looks out of his depth half of the time in the GP. He's been nothing short of awful this season.

But it's all pipe dreams while Eddie is running the show. Farrell and Youngs will be there again, to stifle any attacking threat, and Billy will plod around at number 8 while Daly, when he's not missing tackles, looks like a rabbit under the high balls.

We should still beat Italy to ensure that Eddie can claim we're back on track.

I too have no idea why the kid with the NZ father and the nephew of a legendary All Black is getting preferential treatment. Totes a mysery.


Seriously though, no point Smith being near the squad if Eddie continues on this self-destructive anti-rugby path for England. We can play rugby! We've even done it under Eddie! Stop being such a dick about it and let them play!

Need a player rebellion where someone crocks Youngs in training and then they all refuse to pass it to Farrell.

I can see Ford coming back in (Farrell won't be dropped though) - Maybe Malins for Daly, but that's hope rather than expectation.

Sinkler and Mako will come back in - like to see Lawes in place of Hill and Willis for Wilson. Earl just hasn't impressed me either. Can't see him dropping Billy - but I would.

[PCPhil]

It's all clear now. It was over ambition.

England 'tried to do too much' - Eddie Jones
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56000422

[Dinsdale Piranha]

It's all clear now. It was over ambition.

England 'tried to do too much' - Eddie Jones
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56000422

I saw that.

I had to go and look up "too much" in the dictionary as I appear to have misunderstood its meaning all these years.

[Woddy]

this article ( https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... s-purpose/ ) and even more one of the comments after it, encapsulates my issue with Farrell playing in the England side - especially when at 10 - and broader issues re Jones,.

If Farrell is so great on the training pitch, great: stick him in the coaching team. It does not of itself mean he's the best person to be the play-maker at 10, skipper or even just a 12. That has to be down to how he actually plays or leads during a match.

It did not matter nearly so much when Hartley was Jones's man in the side. Hartley still did the basics pretty well and did not play a position where taking the initiative during play is a key marker. Farrell does play such a position, whether at 10 or 12 but especially the former.

[sockwithaticket]

It's all clear now. It was over ambition.

England 'tried to do too much' - Eddie Jones
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56000422

I saw that.

I had to go and look up "too much" in the dictionary as I appear to have misunderstood its meaning all these years.

In fairness, the article makes it seem like he's saying they tried to do too much in too short a time span during training and then on the field it looked like they couldn't do anything.

The paralysis of half-remembering what Eddie expects I guess.

this article ( https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... s-purpose/ ) and even more one of the comments after it, encapsulates my issue with Farrell playing in the England side - especially when at 10 - and broader issues re Jones,.

If Farrell is so great on the training pitch, great: stick him in the coaching team. It does not of itself mean he's the best person to be the play-maker at 10, skipper or even just a 12. That has to be down to how he actually plays or leads during a match.

It did not matter nearly so much when Hartley was Jones's man in the side. Hartley still did the basics pretty well and did not play a position where taking the initiative during play is a key marker. Farrell does play such a position, whether at 10 or 12 but especially the former.

Can't get past the paywall, but I can imagine some of the content. Farrell:
- drives standards in training
- has an unrivalled will to win
- is a great motivator

Like you say, that sounds great off field, but doesn't have much bearing on whether he's any good at actually playing rugby.

When was the last time Ford got to play unencumbered by Farrell on his inside? Argentina 2017?

It's kind of gratifying to see some of the criticism we make of Farrell on here getting some more traction in the rugby press. He must be playing as badly as we think.

[Woddy]

the article is actually more about how Jones always backs his skippers in public even if giving them hell in private, and compares notes across various of his skippers: Gregan, Keitch, Hartley etc. It notes that he can suddenly cut them loose, and implies that could equally happen to Farrell if he doesn't play well.

However, it then goes on to how all those skippers are the hardest workers in training and become the personification of Jones on the pitch. From which points, your comments are spot on.

[Margin__Walker]

15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 48 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 35 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (C) (Saracens, 89 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 62 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 73 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 105 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 63 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 40 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 44 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 86 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 29 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 57 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 55 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 9 caps)
21. Jack Willis (Wasps, 2 caps)
22. Dan Robson (Wasps, 8 caps)
23. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 4 caps)

[ASMO]

15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 48 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 35 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (C) (Saracens, 89 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 62 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 73 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 105 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 63 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 40 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 44 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 86 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 29 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 57 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 55 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 9 caps)
21. Jack Willis (Wasps, 2 caps)
22. Dan Robson (Wasps, 8 caps)
23. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 4 caps)

Utter shithouse selection, Ford will be useless with Youngs service, back row is fucking terrible and Daly to yet again prove how shit a 15 he is. I am in despair.

[mos_eisely_]

Christ. What does Randall have to do? Change his name to Ben Young's?

[ASMO]

Christ. What does Randall have to do? Change his name to Ben Young's?

Or find some compromising photos of Eddie

[Raggs]

So we're going to try and beat Italy up in the set piece, and act like everything is OK.

[JM2K6]

I'm happy LCD is starting. That is a good and overdue change.

As for the rest, well knock me down with a feather Eddie's only gone and made the fringe players carry the can for the performance.

[ASMO]

So we're going to try and beat Italy up in the set piece, and act like everything is OK.

Pretty much this, and then Steady Eddie will come out and say "i told you so"