The Official F1 Thread

[handyman]

Yeah - the new owner had to spend something like $100million just to bring it up to that standard. I think it's a long way off

I wonder how many years it would take to pay back $100 million in SA ?

It would be nice to have another GP in the SH, & it could be swapped for one of the European legs, because it's in the right TZ; but if it doesn't wash it's face in local attendance; there's no point even talking about it; & I suspect it wouldn't.

Rabid corruption throughout the continent probably doesn't help either.

I'm obviously very selfish when I say I want a GP in SA, but yeah, dealing with the corruption and ineptness of our government is why it won't happen soon.

[fishfoodie]

Yeah - the new owner had to spend something like $100million just to bring it up to that standard. I think it's a long way off

I wonder how many years it would take to pay back $100 million in SA ?

It would be nice to have another GP in the SH, & it could be swapped for one of the European legs, because it's in the right TZ; but if it doesn't wash it's face in local attendance; there's no point even talking about it; & I suspect it wouldn't.

Rabid corruption throughout the continent probably doesn't help either.

If rabid corruption was an impediment to getting a GP; the calendar would extend to about 12 races.......

[Un Pilier]

So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

[Kawazaki]

So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

Well for starters, F1 has just introduced a budget cost cap that brings all teams, including the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull, down to an annual spend less than what Haas spent last year.

How are they supposed to afford to pay to sprint race as well as all the testing, practice, qualifying and racing they have to do across 22 race weekends using just three engines that have to last the entire season?

[Kawazaki]

I wonder how many years it would take to pay back $100 million in SA ?

It would be nice to have another GP in the SH, & it could be swapped for one of the European legs, because it's in the right TZ; but if it doesn't wash it's face in local attendance; there's no point even talking about it; & I suspect it wouldn't.

Rabid corruption throughout the continent probably doesn't help either.

If rabid corruption was an impediment to getting a GP; the calendar would extend to about 12 races.......

Possibly, but the Russians and the Arabs know how to do corruption without shitting on their own doorstep.

[Saint]

So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

I like it, but the FIA would need to significantly up the budget per race - tge FIA are offering $75k per team, but a single front wing costs $200k. For the midfield teams in particular the risk/reward doesn't stack up as they'll be expecting to.lose at least 1 front wing each weekend in a sprint format

[Sandstorm]

So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

I like it, but the FIA would need to significantly up the budget per race - tge FIA are offering $75k per team, but a single front wing costs $200k. For the midfield teams in particular the risk/reward doesn't stack up as they'll be expecting to.lose at least 1 front wing each weekend in a sprint format

So the problem isn’t that a front wing costs 200 fucking thousand dollars????

[fishfoodie]

So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

I like it, but the FIA would need to significantly up the budget per race - tge FIA are offering $75k per team, but a single front wing costs $200k. For the midfield teams in particular the risk/reward doesn't stack up as they'll be expecting to.lose at least 1 front wing each weekend in a sprint format

So the problem isn’t that a front wing costs 200 fucking thousand dollars????

$500 worth of material, $5,000 worth of a professionals time, & $5,000,000 worth of development *

* Figures pulled from my arse.

[Saint]

[quote=Sandstorm post_id=80791 time=1612903254 user_id=69]
[quote=Saint post_id=80778 time=1612899323 user_id=196]
[quote="Un Pilier" post_id=80761 time=1612896774 user_id=364]
So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?
[/quote]

I like it, but the FIA would need to significantly up the budget per race - tge FIA are offering $75k per team, but a single front wing costs $200k. For the midfield teams in particular the risk/reward doesn't stack up as they'll be expecting to.lose at least 1 front wing each weekend in a sprint format
[/quote]

So the problem isn’t that a front wing costs 200 fucking thousand dollars????
[/quote]

I'm not disagreeing that's a problem. But it's an example of how the FIA don't think this through. It's their rules on the front wing design that have led to it costing 200k.

[Saint]

I like it, but the FIA would need to significantly up the budget per race - tge FIA are offering $75k per team, but a single front wing costs $200k. For the midfield teams in particular the risk/reward doesn't stack up as they'll be expecting to.lose at least 1 front wing each weekend in a sprint format

So the problem isn’t that a front wing costs 200 fucking thousand dollars????

$500 worth of material, $5,000 worth of a professionals time, & $5,000,000 worth of development *

* Figures pulled from my arse.

That's about right. The manufacturing cost of a front wing us 200k, AFTER the sunk cost of design/development (bearing in mind that the front wing probably has the highest development costs over the course of the season of ANY part of the car)

[Un Pilier]

So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

Well for starters, F1 has just introduced a budget cost cap that brings all teams, including the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull, down to an annual spend less than what Haas spent last year.

How are they supposed to afford to pay to sprint race as well as all the testing, practice, qualifying and racing they have to do across 22 race weekends using just three engines that have to last the entire season?

Well F1 need to get their ass into gear to reduce costs as they have been promising to do for years. This proposal is about making the whole weekend more entertaining for the punters in a way that is consistent with the fundamentals of the sport. Let’s not assume that’s too hard.

[Saint]

So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

Well for starters, F1 has just introduced a budget cost cap that brings all teams, including the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull, down to an annual spend less than what Haas spent last year.

How are they supposed to afford to pay to sprint race as well as all the testing, practice, qualifying and racing they have to do across 22 race weekends using just three engines that have to last the entire season?

Well F1 need to get their ass into gear to reduce costs as they have been promising to do for years. This proposal is about making the whole weekend more entertaining for the punters in a way that is consistent with the fundamentals of the sport. Let’s not assume that’s too hard.

And that's fine - but has to be done in conjunction with other rules changes.

[Un Pilier]

Well for starters, F1 has just introduced a budget cost cap that brings all teams, including the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull, down to an annual spend less than what Haas spent last year.

How are they supposed to afford to pay to sprint race as well as all the testing, practice, qualifying and racing they have to do across 22 race weekends using just three engines that have to last the entire season?

Well F1 need to get their ass into gear to reduce costs as they have been promising to do for years. This proposal is about making the whole weekend more entertaining for the punters in a way that is consistent with the fundamentals of the sport. Let’s not assume that’s too hard.

And that's fine - but has to be done in conjunction with other rules changes.

Agreed. It’s the same people who control all the rules so I can’t imagine it’s impossible.

[Saint]

Well F1 need to get their ass into gear to reduce costs as they have been promising to do for years. This proposal is about making the whole weekend more entertaining for the punters in a way that is consistent with the fundamentals of the sport. Let’s not assume that’s too hard.

And that's fine - but has to be done in conjunction with other rules changes.

Agreed. It’s the same people who control all the rules so I can’t imagine it’s impossible.

The other rule changes are controlled by different committees- and many of them require team consent. The fia can impose this change but can't deal with theother aspects.

This is going nowhere unless the teams agree

[fishfoodie]

And that's fine - but has to be done in conjunction with other rules changes.

Agreed. It’s the same people who control all the rules so I can’t imagine it’s impossible.

The other rule changes are controlled by different committees- and many of them require team consent. The fia can impose this change but can't deal with theother aspects.

This is going nowhere unless the teams agree

Hey Saint. Do you think the teams would agree to a common aero package & electronics/sw; if they got to stay independent on engine/erg ?

I think we all know they need to be able to put their manufacturers stamp on a significant part of the overall package; so they can continue to use the F1 formula as a brand promotion; but how much of the car has to be branded, before the teams will be satisfied ?

We'll never get a CART situation; but what do you think is realistic ?

[Saint]

Zero chance on a common aero package. For one thing, each engine has different cooling requirements, necessitating different cooling ductwork. For another, the customer teams see aero as their primary way to differentiate their performance vs other teams. And finally, the two Red Bull outfits are actively proposing to freeze engine dev to spend more money on aero.

Common electronics, brakes, etc should be achievable but it's going to be really limited

[fishfoodie]

Zero chance on a common aero package. For one thing, each engine has different cooling requirements, necessitating different cooling ductwork. For another, the customer teams see aero as their primary way to differentiate their performance vs other teams. And finally, the two Red Bull outfits are actively proposing to freeze engine dev to spend more money on aero.

Common electronics, brakes, etc should be achievable but it's going to be really limited

Yeah, that's what I figured. The different teams all differentiate on different parts of the package; so there's sod all chance of them ever agreeing on commonality except in the few areas where the don't see themselves losing an advantage.

[fishfoodie]

Alonso hit by a car while out cycling in Switzerland. Sounds like he's okay, broken jaw & probably some other bits & bobs; but not good timing.

[Saint]

Zero chance on a common aero package. For one thing, each engine has different cooling requirements, necessitating different cooling ductwork. For another, the customer teams see aero as their primary way to differentiate their performance vs other teams. And finally, the two Red Bull outfits are actively proposing to freeze engine dev to spend more money on aero.

Common electronics, brakes, etc should be achievable but it's going to be really limited

Yeah, that's what I figured. The different teams all differentiate on different parts of the package; so there's sod all chance of them ever agreeing on commonality except in the few areas where the don't see themselves losing an advantage.

Engine development freeze for 2022-25 agreed to enable Red Bull to take over the Honda F1 engineering operation. So the only dev scope will be aero for 3 years

A new engine formula will be proposed for 2025, a year ahead of schedule. The initial requirements for it though sound like a complete unicorn:

- relevant to manufacturers (especially new manufacturers)
- environmentally produced fuel
- low cost
- good sound profile
- environmentally and socially sustainable

Sprint races still under consideration

[Sandstorm]

Alonso hit by a car while out cycling in Switzerland. Sounds like he's okay, broken jaw & probably some other bits & bobs; but not good timing.

Intermediates instead of full wets?

[Kawazaki]

Zero chance on a common aero package. For one thing, each engine has different cooling requirements, necessitating different cooling ductwork. For another, the customer teams see aero as their primary way to differentiate their performance vs other teams. And finally, the two Red Bull outfits are actively proposing to freeze engine dev to spend more money on aero.

Common electronics, brakes, etc should be achievable but it's going to be really limited

Yeah, that's what I figured. The different teams all differentiate on different parts of the package; so there's sod all chance of them ever agreeing on commonality except in the few areas where the don't see themselves losing an advantage.

Engine development freeze for 2022-25 agreed to enable Red Bull to take over the Honda F1 engineering operation. So the only dev scope will be aero for 3 years

A new engine formula will be proposed for 2025, a year ahead of schedule. The initial requirements for it though sound like a complete unicorn:

- relevant to manufacturers (especially new manufacturers)
- environmentally produced fuel
- low cost
- good sound profile
- environmentally and socially sustainable

Sprint races still under consideration

Screaming 3.8l V10s that run on bioethanol surely meets everyone's requirements?

Power
Noise
Green

What's not to like?

[Saint]

Yeah, that's what I figured. The different teams all differentiate on different parts of the package; so there's sod all chance of them ever agreeing on commonality except in the few areas where the don't see themselves losing an advantage.

Engine development freeze for 2022-25 agreed to enable Red Bull to take over the Honda F1 engineering operation. So the only dev scope will be aero for 3 years

A new engine formula will be proposed for 2025, a year ahead of schedule. The initial requirements for it though sound like a complete unicorn:

- relevant to manufacturers (especially new manufacturers)
- environmentally produced fuel
- low cost
- good sound profile
- environmentally and socially sustainable

Sprint races still under consideration

Screaming 3.8l V10s that run on bioethanol surely meets everyone's requirements?

Power
Noise
Green

What's not to like?

Irrelevant to engine manufacturing. By 2025 it's going to be all about silent electric

[Kawazaki]

Engine development freeze for 2022-25 agreed to enable Red Bull to take over the Honda F1 engineering operation. So the only dev scope will be aero for 3 years

A new engine formula will be proposed for 2025, a year ahead of schedule. The initial requirements for it though sound like a complete unicorn:

- relevant to manufacturers (especially new manufacturers)
- environmentally produced fuel
- low cost
- good sound profile
- environmentally and socially sustainable

Sprint races still under consideration

Screaming 3.8l V10s that run on bioethanol surely meets everyone's requirements?

Power
Noise
Green

What's not to like?

Irrelevant to engine manufacturing. By 2025 it's going to be all about silent electric

I wouldn't be so sure. There are synthetic fuels being produced now that are already carbon neutral. They actively remove CO² from the air as part of the refinery process. It's very clever.

[Saint]

Screaming 3.8l V10s that run on bioethanol surely meets everyone's requirements?

Power
Noise
Green

What's not to like?

Irrelevant to engine manufacturing. By 2025 it's going to be all about silent electric

I wouldn't be so sure. There are synthetic fuels being produced now that are already carbon neutral. They actively remove CO² from the air as part of the refinery process. It's very clever.

At this point it's going to take a major change in global government policy to change things. Most manufacturers are currently planning to cease production of combustion engines inside the next 10 years (and realistically sooner than that) If you want to bring new manufacturers in, it's hard to see how a bioethanol engine formula is going to do that. Realistically, a merger of Formula E and F1 is on the cards, moving away from those ridiculous city circuits

[fishfoodie]

Irrelevant to engine manufacturing. By 2025 it's going to be all about silent electric

I wouldn't be so sure. There are synthetic fuels being produced now that are already carbon neutral. They actively remove CO² from the air as part of the refinery process. It's very clever.

At this point it's going to take a major change in global government policy to change things. Most manufacturers are currently planning to cease production of combustion engines inside the next 10 years (and realistically sooner than that) If you want to bring new manufacturers in, it's hard to see how a bioethanol engine formula is going to do that. Realistically, a merger of Formula E and F1 is on the cards, moving away from those ridiculous city circuits

Not the worst prospect. I know it was earlier on the technology curve; but the progress in the TT Zero class was pretty incredible; & if it could be in any way replicated in Formula E; there would be a whole new technology battle; & the millions the F1 manufacturers would be pouring in; would actually be of benefit to the people buying electric vehicles.

[Kawazaki]

Irrelevant to engine manufacturing. By 2025 it's going to be all about silent electric

I wouldn't be so sure. There are synthetic fuels being produced now that are already carbon neutral. They actively remove CO² from the air as part of the refinery process. It's very clever.

At this point it's going to take a major change in global government policy to change things. Most manufacturers are currently planning to cease production of combustion engines inside the next 10 years (and realistically sooner than that) If you want to bring new manufacturers in, it's hard to see how a bioethanol engine formula is going to do that. Realistically, a merger of Formula E and F1 is on the cards, moving away from those ridiculous city circuits

Possibly, but that assumes that the big automotive giants are going to stay in F1. That's far from certain at the moment and even if it is, does their direction of travel reconcile with what F1 historically really is? There's a reluctant expectation that F1 will become fully electric one day but there's also a growing feeling within the sport that going down that route will ultimately be the end of F1. F1 is really about combustion engines, either normally aspirated or forced induction, with plenty of noise. Electric cars simply can't recreate what an ICE can do. If F1 can use V10s or V8s that are carbon-neutral or even provide an environmental surplus, for a fraction of the cost of the hybrids and with the bonus that they aren't wedded to the commercial whims of the automotive giants then I can definitely see Liberty/F1 and the FIA going in that direction instead. Certainly if they don't do it then entrepreneurs like Stroll and Wolff will in my opinion.

[Saint]

I wouldn't be so sure. There are synthetic fuels being produced now that are already carbon neutral. They actively remove CO² from the air as part of the refinery process. It's very clever.

At this point it's going to take a major change in global government policy to change things. Most manufacturers are currently planning to cease production of combustion engines inside the next 10 years (and realistically sooner than that) If you want to bring new manufacturers in, it's hard to see how a bioethanol engine formula is going to do that. Realistically, a merger of Formula E and F1 is on the cards, moving away from those ridiculous city circuits

Possibly, but that assumes that the big automotive giants are going to stay in F1. That's far from certain at the moment and even if it is, does their direction of travel reconcile with what F1 historically really is? There's a reluctant expectation that F1 will become fully electric one day but there's also a growing feeling within the sport that going down that route will ultimately be the end of F1. F1 is really about combustion engines, either normally aspirated or forced induction, with plenty of noise. Electric cars simply can't recreate what an ICE can do. If F1 can use V10s or V8s that are carbon-neutral or even provide an environmental surplus, for a fraction of the cost of the hybrids and with the bonus that they aren't wedded to the commercial whims of the automotive giants then I can definitely see Liberty/F1 and the FIA going in that direction instead. Certainly if they don't do it then entrepreneurs like Stroll and Wolff will in my opinion.

Well, Stroll will go with whatever direction makes sense for Aston Martin. If he thinks that having a rep with a combustion engine makes AM more relevant commercially then he might take gat route - but realistically AM are moving towards EV,even if that's been delayed in the short term

Wolff is a one third owner of the team. But the engine is owned by AMG. If they want an EV engine they'll get it,and Wolff I more interested in racing than with what he is racing with. Renault would be happy wit an EV formula, and EV could tempt VW, BMW, Honda, etc back in

[Kawazaki]

At this point it's going to take a major change in global government policy to change things. Most manufacturers are currently planning to cease production of combustion engines inside the next 10 years (and realistically sooner than that) If you want to bring new manufacturers in, it's hard to see how a bioethanol engine formula is going to do that. Realistically, a merger of Formula E and F1 is on the cards, moving away from those ridiculous city circuits

Possibly, but that assumes that the big automotive giants are going to stay in F1. That's far from certain at the moment and even if it is, does their direction of travel reconcile with what F1 historically really is? There's a reluctant expectation that F1 will become fully electric one day but there's also a growing feeling within the sport that going down that route will ultimately be the end of F1. F1 is really about combustion engines, either normally aspirated or forced induction, with plenty of noise. Electric cars simply can't recreate what an ICE can do. If F1 can use V10s or V8s that are carbon-neutral or even provide an environmental surplus, for a fraction of the cost of the hybrids and with the bonus that they aren't wedded to the commercial whims of the automotive giants then I can definitely see Liberty/F1 and the FIA going in that direction instead. Certainly if they don't do it then entrepreneurs like Stroll and Wolff will in my opinion.

Well, Stroll will go with whatever direction makes sense for Aston Martin. If he thinks that having a rep with a combustion engine makes AM more relevant commercially then he might take gat route - but realistically AM are moving towards EV,even if that's been delayed in the short term

Wolff is a one third owner of the team. But the engine is owned by AMG. If they want an EV engine they'll get it,and Wolff I more interested in racing than with what he is racing with. Renault would be happy wit an EV formula, and EV could tempt VW, BMW, Honda, etc back in

I'm sure EV will attract the white box automotive corporates but that isn't what I said. And that isn't really what F1 is either.

[Saint]

Possibly, but that assumes that the big automotive giants are going to stay in F1. That's far from certain at the moment and even if it is, does their direction of travel reconcile with what F1 historically really is? There's a reluctant expectation that F1 will become fully electric one day but there's also a growing feeling within the sport that going down that route will ultimately be the end of F1. F1 is really about combustion engines, either normally aspirated or forced induction, with plenty of noise. Electric cars simply can't recreate what an ICE can do. If F1 can use V10s or V8s that are carbon-neutral or even provide an environmental surplus, for a fraction of the cost of the hybrids and with the bonus that they aren't wedded to the commercial whims of the automotive giants then I can definitely see Liberty/F1 and the FIA going in that direction instead. Certainly if they don't do it then entrepreneurs like Stroll and Wolff will in my opinion.

Well, Stroll will go with whatever direction makes sense for Aston Martin. If he thinks that having a rep with a combustion engine makes AM more relevant commercially then he might take gat route - but realistically AM are moving towards EV,even if that's been delayed in the short term

Wolff is a one third owner of the team. But the engine is owned by AMG. If they want an EV engine they'll get it,and Wolff I more interested in racing than with what he is racing with. Renault would be happy wit an EV formula, and EV could tempt VW, BMW, Honda, etc back in

I'm sure EV will attract the white box automotive corporates but that isn't what I said. And that isn't really what F1 is either.

Without the engine there is no F1. What F1 is lacking is a wide variety of engines - customer teams don't have enough competitive choice for them to really be effective, or to support the number of teams that F1 really needs. More engine ess,more affordability is what they need, but as I said, it's a unicorn. Something will have to give, and I think you'de going to see the end of loud engines, combustion etc. That's still within the ethos of F1 historically, but it doesn't appeal to fans who grew up in a certain era and thought that's always now it will be.

Colin Chapman would have been all over the possibilities of an EV engine

[fishfoodie]

Well, Stroll will go with whatever direction makes sense for Aston Martin. If he thinks that having a rep with a combustion engine makes AM more relevant commercially then he might take gat route - but realistically AM are moving towards EV,even if that's been delayed in the short term

Wolff is a one third owner of the team. But the engine is owned by AMG. If they want an EV engine they'll get it,and Wolff I more interested in racing than with what he is racing with. Renault would be happy wit an EV formula, and EV could tempt VW, BMW, Honda, etc back in

I'm sure EV will attract the white box automotive corporates but that isn't what I said. And that isn't really what F1 is either.

Without the engine there is no F1. What F1 is lacking is a wide variety of engines - customer teams don't have enough competitive choice for them to really be effective, or to support the number of teams that F1 really needs. More engine ess,more affordability is what they need, but as I said, it's a unicorn. Something will have to give, and I think you'de going to see the end of loud engines, combustion etc. That's still within the ethos of F1 historically, but it doesn't appeal to fans who grew up in a certain era and thought that's always now it will be.

Colin Chapman would have been all over the possibilities of an EV engine

Well it's not so much; "the engine", with EV; there's motors, & batteries, & controllers; & the ever present aero; & with things like the motors; I'm not sure of the team can really achieve any gains; ditto the controller; but perhaps they can get smarter with the s/w; the battery tech thought .....

One of the things I like about the TT Zero races, & what the E races are trying to replicate; is that the where & when, the driver deploys the energy they have available is super critical.

Any gobshite can overtake when they have a full battery; but the canny driver will save their battery; & then spank the mugs who used all their battery in the first 20% of the race; & then got overtaken by the field in the last 10%.

It's motor racing chess.

[Kawazaki]

Well, Stroll will go with whatever direction makes sense for Aston Martin. If he thinks that having a rep with a combustion engine makes AM more relevant commercially then he might take gat route - but realistically AM are moving towards EV,even if that's been delayed in the short term

Wolff is a one third owner of the team. But the engine is owned by AMG. If they want an EV engine they'll get it,and Wolff I more interested in racing than with what he is racing with. Renault would be happy wit an EV formula, and EV could tempt VW, BMW, Honda, etc back in

I'm sure EV will attract the white box automotive corporates but that isn't what I said. And that isn't really what F1 is either.

Without the engine there is no F1. What F1 is lacking is a wide variety of engines - customer teams don't have enough competitive choice for them to really be effective, or to support the number of teams that F1 really needs. More engine ess,more affordability is what they need, but as I said, it's a unicorn. Something will have to give, and I think you'de going to see the end of loud engines, combustion etc. That's still within the ethos of F1 historically, but it doesn't appeal to fans who grew up in a certain era and thought that's always now it will be.

Colin Chapman would have been all over the possibilities of an EV engine

Not sure you've understood what I've said. The new fuel refineries they're developing pull CO² out of the atmosphere, millions of tons of it to combine with hydrogen to produce synthetic fuel. EV technology relies of lithium-ion batteries that produce millions of tons of CO² when they're manufactured. F1 would be more environmentally-friendly using a combustion engine using synthetic fuel produced from the new refineries than if it used an EV/hybrid car. And those V10/V8 ICEs wouldn't have to be financed by one of the automotive corporates, they could be made by independent specialists and branded with whatever they like. You talk about continuing down the EV/hybrid route in the same breadth as using the word affordability as well! Engine builders like Cosworth, Judd, AVL etc could build a 1000bhp V10/8 than ran on synthetic fuel for a fraction of what the EV/hybrids cost. F1 is still in the entertainment business remember, it isn't just a testbed for the automotive industry which is the decision it needs to make.

As for what Colin Chapman would have wanted, he'd likely have wanted a driverless car that could corner at much higher Gs too but that isn't F1 either is it.

[Saint]

I'm sure EV will attract the white box automotive corporates but that isn't what I said. And that isn't really what F1 is either.

Without the engine there is no F1. What F1 is lacking is a wide variety of engines - customer teams don't have enough competitive choice for them to really be effective, or to support the number of teams that F1 really needs. More engine ess,more affordability is what they need, but as I said, it's a unicorn. Something will have to give, and I think you'de going to see the end of loud engines, combustion etc. That's still within the ethos of F1 historically, but it doesn't appeal to fans who grew up in a certain era and thought that's always now it will be.

Colin Chapman would have been all over the possibilities of an EV engine

Not sure you've understood what I've said. The new fuel refineries they're developing pull CO² out of the atmosphere, millions of tons of it to combine with hydrogen to produce synthetic fuel. EV technology relies of lithium-ion batteries that produce millions of tons of CO² when they're manufactured. F1 would be more environmentally-friendly using a combustion engine using synthetic fuel produced from the new refineries than if it used an EV/hybrid car. And those V10/V8 ICEs wouldn't have to be financed by one of the automotive corporates, they could be made by independent specialists and branded with whatever they like. You talk about continuing down the EV/hybrid route in the same breadth as using the word affordability as well! Engine builders like Cosworth, Judd, AVL etc could build a 1000bhp V10/8 than ran on synthetic fuel for a fraction of what the EV/hybrids cost. F1 is still in the entertainment business remember, it isn't just a testbed for the automotive industry which is the decision it needs to make.

As for what Colin Chapman would have wanted, he'd likely have wanted a driverless car that could corner at much higher Gs too but that isn't F1 either is it.

I understood fine - but F1 as currently incarnated needs engine manufacturers who see relevance in the Formula, and unless global government change their policies then ICE won't cut it. Given the huge cost in developing any sort of engine, there simply isn't a market for Cosworth, Judd, or anyone else - unless it stops being F1 and cuts it's cloth as a far less extreme motorsport.

The requirements for the engine are a unicorn. You've ticked off 3 boxes and ignored the other 2, but one of those is probably the key requirement

[Kawazaki]

Without the engine there is no F1. What F1 is lacking is a wide variety of engines - customer teams don't have enough competitive choice for them to really be effective, or to support the number of teams that F1 really needs. More engine ess,more affordability is what they need, but as I said, it's a unicorn. Something will have to give, and I think you'de going to see the end of loud engines, combustion etc. That's still within the ethos of F1 historically, but it doesn't appeal to fans who grew up in a certain era and thought that's always now it will be.

Colin Chapman would have been all over the possibilities of an EV engine

Not sure you've understood what I've said. The new fuel refineries they're developing pull CO² out of the atmosphere, millions of tons of it to combine with hydrogen to produce synthetic fuel. EV technology relies of lithium-ion batteries that produce millions of tons of CO² when they're manufactured. F1 would be more environmentally-friendly using a combustion engine using synthetic fuel produced from the new refineries than if it used an EV/hybrid car. And those V10/V8 ICEs wouldn't have to be financed by one of the automotive corporates, they could be made by independent specialists and branded with whatever they like. You talk about continuing down the EV/hybrid route in the same breadth as using the word affordability as well! Engine builders like Cosworth, Judd, AVL etc could build a 1000bhp V10/8 than ran on synthetic fuel for a fraction of what the EV/hybrids cost. F1 is still in the entertainment business remember, it isn't just a testbed for the automotive industry which is the decision it needs to make.

As for what Colin Chapman would have wanted, he'd likely have wanted a driverless car that could corner at much higher Gs too but that isn't F1 either is it.

I understood fine - but F1 as currently incarnated needs engine manufacturers who see relevance in the Formula, and unless global government change their policies then ICE won't cut it. Given the huge cost in developing any sort of engine, there simply isn't a market for Cosworth, Judd, or anyone else - unless it stops being F1 and cuts it's cloth as a far less extreme motorsport.

The requirements for the engine are a unicorn. You've ticked off 3 boxes and ignored the other 2, but one of those is probably the key requirement

There's no huge cost in developing a 1000bhp V10, it's already been done. And F1 is plenty extreme enough with one of those bolted to a 500kg chassis.

The point you miss is the direction F1 goes in; does it weld itself to the big automotive manufacturers come what may or does it retain some autonomy with the ability to function without the risk of going all-in with stakeholders who come and go whenever it suits? If you can achieve the latter whilst also being carbon neutral and retaining all the fan favourite USPs of F1 whilst on a budget about 40% of what the top teams were spending in 2020, then that's an attractive proposition.

[Saint]

Not sure you've understood what I've said. The new fuel refineries they're developing pull CO² out of the atmosphere, millions of tons of it to combine with hydrogen to produce synthetic fuel. EV technology relies of lithium-ion batteries that produce millions of tons of CO² when they're manufactured. F1 would be more environmentally-friendly using a combustion engine using synthetic fuel produced from the new refineries than if it used an EV/hybrid car. And those V10/V8 ICEs wouldn't have to be financed by one of the automotive corporates, they could be made by independent specialists and branded with whatever they like. You talk about continuing down the EV/hybrid route in the same breadth as using the word affordability as well! Engine builders like Cosworth, Judd, AVL etc could build a 1000bhp V10/8 than ran on synthetic fuel for a fraction of what the EV/hybrids cost. F1 is still in the entertainment business remember, it isn't just a testbed for the automotive industry which is the decision it needs to make.

As for what Colin Chapman would have wanted, he'd likely have wanted a driverless car that could corner at much higher Gs too but that isn't F1 either is it.

I understood fine - but F1 as currently incarnated needs engine manufacturers who see relevance in the Formula, and unless global government change their policies then ICE won't cut it. Given the huge cost in developing any sort of engine, there simply isn't a market for Cosworth, Judd, or anyone else - unless it stops being F1 and cuts it's cloth as a far less extreme motorsport.

The requirements for the engine are a unicorn. You've ticked off 3 boxes and ignored the other 2, but one of those is probably the key requirement

There's no huge cost in developing a 1000bhp V10, it's already been done. And F1 is plenty extreme enough with one of those bolted to a 500kg chassis.

The point you miss is the direction F1 goes in; does it weld itself to the big automotive manufacturers come what may or does it retain some autonomy with the ability to function without the risk of going all-in with stakeholders who come and go whenever it suits? If you can achieve the latter whilst also being carbon neutral and retaining all the fan favourite USPs of F1 whilst on a budget about 40% of what the top teams were spending in 2020, then that's an attractive proposition.

It's a non-starter, especially considering what F1 has already issued as it's requirements. The decision has been made as to the direction of travel.

What you're describing is more like what Indy has done. That's fine. But it isn't F1

[Kawazaki]

I understood fine - but F1 as currently incarnated needs engine manufacturers who see relevance in the Formula, and unless global government change their policies then ICE won't cut it. Given the huge cost in developing any sort of engine, there simply isn't a market for Cosworth, Judd, or anyone else - unless it stops being F1 and cuts it's cloth as a far less extreme motorsport.

The requirements for the engine are a unicorn. You've ticked off 3 boxes and ignored the other 2, but one of those is probably the key requirement

There's no huge cost in developing a 1000bhp V10, it's already been done. And F1 is plenty extreme enough with one of those bolted to a 500kg chassis.

The point you miss is the direction F1 goes in; does it weld itself to the big automotive manufacturers come what may or does it retain some autonomy with the ability to function without the risk of going all-in with stakeholders who come and go whenever it suits? If you can achieve the latter whilst also being carbon neutral and retaining all the fan favourite USPs of F1 whilst on a budget about 40% of what the top teams were spending in 2020, then that's an attractive proposition.

It's a non-starter, especially considering what F1 has already issued as it's requirements. The decision has been made as to the direction of travel.

What you're describing is more like what Indy has done. That's fine. But it isn't F1

The route F1 is going down isn't F1. Full EV will ultimately kill it off.

[Saint]

F1 season looks likely to get a huge shakeup. Portimao was lined up for race 3 but it now seems likely we will get a second Bahrain race. And Silverstone have been approached about the possibilities of staging an extra 2 races this summer (but not back to back)

Things look like they could change very rapidly and Liberty are giving themselves a lot of options

[fishfoodie]

F1 season looks likely to get a huge shakeup. Portimao was lined up for race 3 but it now seems likely we will get a second Bahrain race. And Silverstone have been approached about the possibilities of staging an extra 2 races this summer (but not back to back)

Things look like they could change very rapidly and Liberty are giving themselves a lot of options

It makes sense for them to keep their options open; & have contingencies available; if they aren't able to travel to the next venue.

I'd be telling every track; that if the next track isn't able to run the race; they need to be able to support back-to-back races.

[Un Pilier]

Young Albon is making all the right noises about his demotion. Sensible, of course, but he seems to have read the landscape pretty well.

[Saint]

Fun and games in manufacturer world, with some reports that Williams will be abandoning their relationship with Mercedes to become a customer of Alpine from 2022 onwards. Quite how that works given that Williams have already signed an agreement to take additional tech from Mercedes (gearbox etc) is somewhat unclear

[Kawazaki]

I understood fine - but F1 as currently incarnated needs engine manufacturers who see relevance in the Formula, and unless global government change their policies then ICE won't cut it. Given the huge cost in developing any sort of engine, there simply isn't a market for Cosworth, Judd, or anyone else - unless it stops being F1 and cuts it's cloth as a far less extreme motorsport.

The requirements for the engine are a unicorn. You've ticked off 3 boxes and ignored the other 2, but one of those is probably the key requirement

There's no huge cost in developing a 1000bhp V10, it's already been done. And F1 is plenty extreme enough with one of those bolted to a 500kg chassis.

The point you miss is the direction F1 goes in; does it weld itself to the big automotive manufacturers come what may or does it retain some autonomy with the ability to function without the risk of going all-in with stakeholders who come and go whenever it suits? If you can achieve the latter whilst also being carbon neutral and retaining all the fan favourite USPs of F1 whilst on a budget about 40% of what the top teams were spending in 2020, then that's an attractive proposition.

It's a non-starter, especially considering what F1 has already issued as it's requirements. The decision has been made as to the direction of travel.

What you're describing is more like what Indy has done. That's fine. But it isn't F1

You might want to read this article Saint...

https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/203323/wi ... s-weigh-in?