The Scottish Politics Thread

[Insane_Homer]

Funny how BBC news is all over this like white on rice, yet have to still to report on the health secretary's PPE high court ruling.

Its almost like they are different matters worthy of different streams of coverage and one right now is having live and potentially dramatic evidence presented by a former political leader.....

or it's like one puts a sitting member of the cabinet in a very bad light and the other is putting the SNP in very bad light right when they're pushing for independence again?

[tc27]

Funny how BBC news is all over this like white on rice, yet have to still to report on the health secretary's PPE high court ruling.

Its almost like they are different matters worthy of different streams of coverage and one right now is having live and potentially dramatic evidence presented by a former political leader.....

or it's like one puts a sitting member of the cabinet in a very bad light and the other is putting the SNP in very bad light right when they're pushing for independence again?

Whats going on puts the leader of one the devolved governments (arguably more powerful than any minister outside the top two jobs) in a bad light and possibly speaks to the collapse in separation between the government and the legal system. It would be crazy if it wasn't getting coverage in particular on the day Salmond gives evidence.



BTW The principal player in this is the former leader of the SNP and its a enquiry happening in the Scottish Parliament - the right this off as a conspiracy by the British government in league with the BBC is tin foil territory.

[Insane_Homer]

Quiet, not denying that this is not newsworthy, so much so 2 stories on the front page are dedicated to it.

So why do you think the Beeb only finds this one newsworthy?

One would think our own government being found guilty in the high court of breaking the law would garner some glimmer of attention by comparison?

[Paddington Bear]

Funny how BBC news is all over this like white on rice, yet have still to report on the health secretary's PPE high court ruling loss

Twitter is rotting your mind IH. They did cover it.

[Jasonstry]

Quiet, not denying that this is not newsworthy, so much so 2 stories on the front page are dedicated to it.

So why do you think the Beeb only finds this one newsworthy?

One would think our own government being found guilty in the high court of breaking the law would garner some glimmer of attention by comparison?

Maybe the Tory Scum thread is the place for that rather than a thread about Scottish Politics?

[tc27]

Quiet, not denying that this is not newsworthy, so much so 2 stories on the front page are dedicated to it.

So why do you think the Beeb only finds this one newsworthy?

One would think our own government being found guilty in the high court of breaking the law would garner some glimmer of attention by comparison?

Maybe the Tory Scum thread is the place for that rather than a thread about Scottish Politics?

I think irony on is lost on him.

[Caley_Red]

Funny how BBC news is all over this like white on rice, yet have to still to report on the health secretary's PPE high court ruling.

Its almost like they are different matters worthy of different streams of coverage and one right now is having live and potentially dramatic evidence presented by a former political leader.....

or it's like one puts a sitting member of the cabinet in a very bad light and the other is putting the SNP in very bad light right when they're pushing for independence again?

Stick to embarrassing yourself on the other political threads, don't rot this one with your one-eyed rants.

[Tichtheid]

Was Planet Rugby that bad that you guys can't let go of the personal stuff, even though you moved to another forum to get away from it?

IH made a comparison, that was all.

[Tichtheid]

Anyway, the bottom line seems to be the same thing that has been discussed here - was it a party matter or a SG matter when they met?

He says SG, she says party/friend.

Did she mislead parliament?

He says yes, she says no, she made written submission correcting an earlier one.

I'll be surprised if Sturgeon doesn't survive this and actually get stronger by means of the electorate as a result.

[Caley_Red]

Anyway, the bottom line seems to be the same thing that has been discussed here - was it a party matter or a SG matter when they met?

He says SG, she says party/friend.

Did she mislead parliament?

He says yes, she says no, she made written submission correcting an earlier one.

I'll be surprised if Sturgeon doesn't survive this and actually get stronger by means of the electorate as a result.

Nice attempt at playing it down but it's not 'he said, she said', the 'he' in this case is the former FM who- having won his case against the review and being cleared of all charges- asserts that Sturgeon lied to parliament.

Do you honestly think it's a malicious campaign concoted by Salmond to bring down the exec or do you think that his assertion is correct? Would be an amazing testament to make up on the fly with the sole intention of bringing down Sturgeon, wouldn't you think?

[Tichtheid]

Do you honestly think it's a malicious campaign concoted by Salmond to bring down the exec or do you think that his assertion is correct? Would be an amazing testament to make up on the fly with the sole intention of bringing down Sturgeon, wouldn't you think?

It's Friday night, I've had a few, do I go all in on what I think Salmond's objectives and motivations are?

I think he was hurt by not getting the full support of the party and the leadership, and I think this is part of the motivation.

His answers today regarding the original complainants - that is something I will not comment on just now, I'm too angry about it.

[Caley_Red]

Do you honestly think it's a malicious campaign concoted by Salmond to bring down the exec or do you think that his assertion is correct? Would be an amazing testament to make up on the fly with the sole intention of bringing down Sturgeon, wouldn't you think?

It's Friday night, I've had a few, do I go all in on what I think Salmond's objectives and motivations are?

I think he was hurt by not getting the full support of the party and the leadership, and I think this is part of the motivation.

His answers today regarding the original complainants - that is something I will not comment on just now, I'm too angry about it.

Let me answer your question for you: you support independence at all costs so you will assert anything that is likely to maintain sturgeon in power as there's no viable alternative in the SNP ; and, the fact that her departure will damage the cause electorally.

[Tichtheid]

From the Guardian

Did Salmond address his own behaviour in his evidence?

From the outset of his long-awaited evidence, Salmond underlined that the committee’s remit was to investigate the Scottish government’s handling of sexual harassment allegations made against him, rather than his own conduct: “This is not about me.”

Earlier this week, Nicola Sturgeon accused Salmond of making “wild, untrue and baseless claims” about a conspiracy against him, to divert attention from questions about his past conduct.

Salmond described the past three years as a “nightmare”. Since the verdicts, the female complainants have themselves been subject to relentless abuse and exposure online. On Thursday, a man was jailed for six months for breaking the court order protecting their anonymity by tweeting their names.

Inquiry member Alex Cole Hamilton, who was rebuked for his questioning by the committee chair, noted that Salmond had not mentioned the women involved in bringing the complaints in his opening statement and asked Salmond directly: “Of the behaviours that you have admitted to, some of which are appalling, are you sorry?” Salmond said in his own evidence at trial that he should have been “more careful with people’s personal space”, while civil servants told the court they tried to reinforce the practice of not allowing female officials to work alone with him.


Salmond responded: “In my statement I pointed out the government’s illegality has had huge consequences for a number of people, and specifically mentioned the complainants” but refused to address them directly: “I’ve had three years of two court cases, two judges and one jury and I’m not going to be drawn further on that.

[Tichtheid]

Let me answer your question for you: you support independence at all costs so you will assert anything that is likely to maintain sturgeon in power as there's no viable alternative in the SNP ; and, the fact that her departure will damage the cause electorally.

That's rather presumptuous.

[Caley_Red]

Let me answer your question for you: you support independence at all costs so you will assert anything that is likely to maintain sturgeon in power as there's no viable alternative in the SNP ; and, the fact that her departure will damage the cause electorally.

That's rather presumptuous.

It is.

Interesting that you chose not to embolden the following 6 words though.

[Tichtheid]

Let me answer your question for you: you support independence at all costs so you will assert anything that is likely to maintain sturgeon in power as there's no viable alternative in the SNP ; and, the fact that her departure will damage the cause electorally.

That's rather presumptuous.

It is.

Interesting that you chose not to embolden the following 6 words though.

Why is it interesting?

I've never made any attempt to hide my opinion that people who live in Scotland should determine their own future, and I choose that definition carefully because it does not exclude people who were not born within the borders, despite how Scottish nationalism is portrayed by its opponents.

[Blackmac]

Do you honestly think it's a malicious campaign concoted by Salmond to bring down the exec or do you think that his assertion is correct? Would be an amazing testament to make up on the fly with the sole intention of bringing down Sturgeon, wouldn't you think?

It's Friday night, I've had a few, do I go all in on what I think Salmond's objectives and motivations are?

I think he was hurt by not getting the full support of the party and the leadership, and I think this is part of the motivation.

His answers today regarding the original complainants - that is something I will not comment on just now, I'm too angry about it.

His behaviour isn't the subject of the hearing
though and that's not why he was there. The question was a cheap publicity stunt.

As I've said I can't stand Salmond and was disappointed at the outcome of both the civil and criminal cases, however it is impossible not to be concerned at what has gone on here.
As to the complainants, everyone seems concerned about them but at the same time quite happy for Sturgeon and the SG to use them as their moral human shield when all they are doing is using them as an excuse to hide significant portions of evidence.

[Tichtheid]

. The question was a cheap publicity stunt.

That attitude is why so many assaults against women are not prosecuted.

[Jockaline]

That's rather presumptuous.

It is.

Interesting that you chose not to embolden the following 6 words though.

Why is it interesting?

I've never made any attempt to hide my opinion that people who live in Scotland should determine their own future, and I choose that definition carefully because it does not exclude people who were not born within the borders, despite how Scottish nationalism is portrayed by its opponents.

The people of Scotland did decide their future in a once in a generation referendum not so long ago. You didn't agree with the outcome, but your claim, which you have said an number of times now, is completely disingenuous as you seek to disregarding and disrespect the people of Scotland who voted. You want to vote and vote again till the result matches your personal bias.

[Big D]

The sad reality is, even if she came out and admitted she did wrong it would make hee haw difference.

Politics is broken in this country and it will be the same until the next referendum, or the next, or the next, or the next.

Independence is so far down the list of priorities for me and many I know it is depressing when no matter what one party do in power it will make feck all difference at the ballot box.

[Tichtheid]

The people of Scotland did decide their future in a once in a generation referendum not so long ago. You didn't agree with the outcome, but your claim, which you have said an number of times now, is completely disingenuous as you seek to disregarding and disrespect the people of Scotland who voted. You want to vote and vote again till the result matches your personal bias.

There seems to be a cultural norm on this forum, it might be a hangover from the PR place, I don't know, but there is a lot of presumption and posters telling others that they know how the other poster thinks.

I find it a bit odd.

I have a political outlook which I'll debate with anyone, the circumstances since the referendum in Scotland have changed, Brexit is but a part of that, no one could say otherwise, surely?

New circumstances mean new avenues for debate, don't they?

[Caley_Red]

That's rather presumptuous.

It is.

Interesting that you chose not to embolden the following 6 words though.

Why is it interesting?

I've never made any attempt to hide my opinion that people who live in Scotland should determine their own future, and I choose that definition carefully because it does not exclude people who were not born within the borders, despite how Scottish nationalism is portrayed by its opponents.

Well, it's qualified with 'at any cost' which, i suppose, you would have to believe in given the current economic turmoil. Utter madness to even contemplate it under the present situation.

[Tichtheid]

The sad reality is, even if she came out and admitted she did wrong it would make hee haw difference.

Politics is broken in this country and it will be the same until the next referendum, or the next, or the next, or the next.

Independence is so far down the list of priorities for me and many I know it is depressing when no matter what one party do in power it will make feck all difference at the ballot box.

The SNP can't be held responsible for the failings of the other parties, though, Shirley?

The Greens are probably going to help a majority SNP after the election, but the Tories and Labour supporters can't blame anyone but their own parties can they?

[Tichtheid]

It is.

Interesting that you chose not to embolden the following 6 words though.

Why is it interesting?

I've never made any attempt to hide my opinion that people who live in Scotland should determine their own future, and I choose that definition carefully because it does not exclude people who were not born within the borders, despite how Scottish nationalism is portrayed by its opponents.

Well, it's qualified with 'at any cost' which, i suppose, you would have to believe in given the current economic turmoil. Utter madness to even contemplate it under the present situation.

Well, it wasn't utter madness to go ahead with Brexit under current economic turmoil, was it?

Though that in itself is not a reason to go ahead with independence, but really, Scotland has no voice of its own in any of this, as things stand

[Jockaline]

The people of Scotland did decide their future in a once in a generation referendum not so long ago. You didn't agree with the outcome, but your claim, which you have said an number of times now, is completely disingenuous as you seek to disregarding and disrespect the people of Scotland who voted. You want to vote and vote again till the result matches your personal bias.

There seems to be a cultural norm on this forum, it might be a hangover from the PR place, I don't know, but there is a lot of presumption and posters telling others that they know how the other poster thinks.

I find it a bit odd.

I have a political outlook which I'll debate with anyone, the circumstances since the referendum in Scotland have changed, Brexit is but a part of that, no one could say otherwise, surely?

New circumstances mean new avenues for debate, don't they?

I would say otherwise, it's just a handy excuse. The vote , my vote, was completely disregarded by much of the independence straight away, Brexit has being gleefully jumped on to give some justification.

[Tichtheid]

I would say otherwise, it's just a handy excuse. The vote , my vote, was completely disregarded by much of the independence straight away, Brexit has being gleefully jumped on to give some justification.

You'll get a chance to vote again won't you, what's wrong with that?

[Jockaline]

I would say otherwise, it's just a handy excuse. The vote , my vote, was completely disregarded by much of the independence straight away, Brexit has being gleefully jumped on to give some justification.

You'll get a chance to vote again won't you, what's wrong with that?

But it will only mean something if it gets the result you want.

[Tichtheid]

I would say otherwise, it's just a handy excuse. The vote , my vote, was completely disregarded by much of the independence straight away, Brexit has being gleefully jumped on to give some justification.

You'll get a chance to vote again won't you, what's wrong with that?

But it will only mean something if it gets the result you want.

It'll mean something if it gets the result I don't want too, I didn't want Brexit or any kind of Tory government, yet here I am.

[Caley_Red]

Why is it interesting?

I've never made any attempt to hide my opinion that people who live in Scotland should determine their own future, and I choose that definition carefully because it does not exclude people who were not born within the borders, despite how Scottish nationalism is portrayed by its opponents.

Well, it's qualified with 'at any cost' which, i suppose, you would have to believe in given the current economic turmoil. Utter madness to even contemplate it under the present situation.

Well, it wasn't utter madness to go ahead with Brexit under current economic turmoil, was it?

Though that in itself is not a reason to go ahead with independence, but really, Scotland has no voice of its own in any of this, as things stand

The two cannot be compared; if Britain was in the euro and part of a European fiscal union with a substantial national deficit and had a banking sector 5x its GDP then it would almost be comparable.
I say 'almost' because it also disregards the fact that nearly 70% of our total trade is with the rest of the UK and our entire supply network is wired to accommodate that.

The other part is that the EU didn't ruin the UK education system, nor did it bestow such utter incompetence in many other areas of policy making.

[Big D]

The sad reality is, even if she came out and admitted she did wrong it would make hee haw difference.

Politics is broken in this country and it will be the same until the next referendum, or the next, or the next, or the next.

Independence is so far down the list of priorities for me and many I know it is depressing when no matter what one party do in power it will make feck all difference at the ballot box.

The SNP can't be held responsible for the failings of the other parties, though, Shirley?

The Greens are probably going to help a majority SNP after the election, but the Tories and Labour supporters can't blame anyone but their own parties can they?

Not sure I have blamed any party. I'm bemoaning the hold that the drive for independence has over the political landscape and the system of the same old parties that probably won't change until something significant happens.

There are plenty of people voting for the SNP, as I believe a few on here have said, as a means to an end regarding independence. That is of course their right to do so. It just isn't a priority for me, beauty of democracy eh.

With one party being the predominant party for the independence movement and the opposing vote being split three ways it will always sway the election results. As it stands it wouldn't be a huge shock to have a minority SNP government with not enough support to gain a majority to force a referendum (I think they and the Greens are polling 52-55% just now) and then we are in the same boat for another 5 years until we repeat the cycle.

It doesn't help that there aren't many obviously good politicians across all the parties either.

[Tichtheid]

Well, it's qualified with 'at any cost' which, i suppose, you would have to believe in given the current economic turmoil. Utter madness to even contemplate it under the present situation.

Well, it wasn't utter madness to go ahead with Brexit under current economic turmoil, was it?

Though that in itself is not a reason to go ahead with independence, but really, Scotland has no voice of its own in any of this, as things stand

The two cannot be compared; if Britain was in the euro and part of a European fiscal union with a substantial national deficit and had a banking sector 5x its GDP then it would almost be comparable.
I say 'almost' because it also disregards the fact that nearly 70% of our total trade is with the rest of the UK and our entire supply network is wired to accommodate that.

The other part is that the EU didn't ruin the UK education system, nor did it bestow such utter incompetence in many other areas of policy making.

In effect, are you saying Scotland is too small, too stupid, too ineffectual, too this that and the the next thing and that Scotland cannot countenance the idea that Scottish people can vote for and directly elect people who will represent them?

That the only way for Scottish people is that they take what is handed down from Westminster?

[Tichtheid]

Scotland exists only as a generous gift of others?

Really?

[Tichtheid]

Where are you from, I can't quite place your accent?

Dunno, you'd better ask someone who determines where I'm from.

[Tattie]

Where are you from, I can't quite place your accent?

Dunno, you'd better ask someone who determines where I'm from.

I don't know why you bother mate, this thread started off as civil, balanced and well intentioned.

Now????

I'm out.

[Tichtheid]

Where are you from, I can't quite place your accent?

Dunno, you'd better ask someone who determines where I'm from.

I don't know why you bother mate, this thread started off as civil, balanced and well intentioned.

Now????

I'm out.

They're in a decreasing minority, thankfully, Tattie, the demographic is agin 'im, we'll get there.

[Caley_Red]

Well, it wasn't utter madness to go ahead with Brexit under current economic turmoil, was it?

Though that in itself is not a reason to go ahead with independence, but really, Scotland has no voice of its own in any of this, as things stand

The two cannot be compared; if Britain was in the euro and part of a European fiscal union with a substantial national deficit and had a banking sector 5x its GDP then it would almost be comparable.
I say 'almost' because it also disregards the fact that nearly 70% of our total trade is with the rest of the UK and our entire supply network is wired to accommodate that.

The other part is that the EU didn't ruin the UK education system, nor did it bestow such utter incompetence in many other areas of policy making.

In effect, are you saying Scotland is too small, too stupid, too ineffectual, too this that and the the next thing and that Scotland cannot countenance the idea that Scottish people can vote for and directly elect people who will represent them?

That the only way for Scottish people is that they take what is handed down from Westminster?

I don't like this trope from 2014 that because I would not vote in favour of independence now, I am somehow downbeat about the country as a whole. I have absolutely no pessimism in the people of Scotland, some of the most resourceful and diligent people in the world (and I've travelled quite extensively). I do, however, have very deep misgivings about the people in charge of Scotland, the parlous state of the economy and also what country Scotland wants to be after hypothetical independence.

Sturgeon's management of the economy and the country has been catastrophic; named person, hate 'crime' bill, education system, drug deaths, deficit, debt etc. We don't need to revisit those here. Scotland's economy is also highly reliant on two sectors for both tax revenue and highly paid skilled employment: oil and related services and banking/ finance. The former is in structural decline and marginal extractions costs are rising, the latter will see large decampment as a result of independence.

So I have no problem with Scottish people, I have a problem with a country with no established currency or central banking plan, the largest deficit in the developed world, debt-to-GDP north of 100% and serious structural issues in employment composition. All of this run by Sturgeon and her team who have done such an utterly dreadful job with what power the Scottish parliament has and has no plans to deal with any of the issues I've outlined above. Na, no thanks.

Looks like you hit the whiskers a bit hard last night so I won't address the subsequent messages.

[Slick]

Do you honestly think it's a malicious campaign concoted by Salmond to bring down the exec or do you think that his assertion is correct? Would be an amazing testament to make up on the fly with the sole intention of bringing down Sturgeon, wouldn't you think?

It's Friday night, I've had a few, do I go all in on what I think Salmond's objectives and motivations are?

I think he was hurt by not getting the full support of the party and the leadership, and I think this is part of the motivation.

His answers today regarding the original complainants - that is something I will not comment on just now, I'm too angry about it.

His behaviour isn't the subject of the hearing
though and that's not why he was there. The question was a cheap publicity stunt.

As I've said I can't stand Salmond and was disappointed at the outcome of both the civil and criminal cases, however it is impossible not to be concerned at what has gone on here.
As to the complainants, everyone seems concerned about them but at the same time quite happy for Sturgeon and the SG to use them as their moral human shield when all they are doing is using them as an excuse to hide significant portions of evidence.

Ruth Davidson on C4 news last night was fairly emphatic about Salmond: “he’s a terrible misogynist and an awful human being”

[Biffer]

I would say otherwise, it's just a handy excuse. The vote , my vote, was completely disregarded by much of the independence straight away, Brexit has being gleefully jumped on to give some justification.

You'll get a chance to vote again won't you, what's wrong with that?

But it will only mean something if it gets the result you want.

Are you saying the No vote in 2014 had no consequences?

[Slick]

That's rather presumptuous.

It is.

Interesting that you chose not to embolden the following 6 words though.

Why is it interesting?

I've never made any attempt to hide my opinion that people who live in Scotland should determine their own future, and I choose that definition carefully because it does not exclude people who were not born within the borders, despite how Scottish nationalism is portrayed by its opponents.

More Scots voted for Brexit than voted for the SNP in the last Parliamentary elections

[tc27]

In effect, are you saying Scotland is too small, too stupid, too ineffectual, too this that and the the next thing and that Scotland cannot countenance the idea that Scottish people can vote for and directly elect people who will represent them?

That the only way for Scottish people is that they take what is handed down from Westminster?

The 'too wee, too stupid' meme is something John Swinney came up with - it is employed whenever people cant answer difficult economic/currency questions.

The second point is nonsense. Citizens in Scotland have exactly the same franchise as everyone else in the UK.]

You'll get a chance to vote again won't you, what's wrong with that?

Honestly the SNP leadership is marching you up the hill on this but they have no intention of holding a vote.

THere's no white paper or any kind of legal/economic plan and the they redacted the legal advice they received about needing a S30 (which means it told them they did).