6 nations 2021 Scrum down in the lockdown

[clive]

How does this shit a Welsh team win a triple crown.

Because you are a utter fucking prick, fucking destroyed England.

Well fuck you too you pretendy taff cunt.

Pretendy what word is that, I don't fucking care that you may be a bit slow, you cannot make up words, dumb fucking ass.
and stop dribbling whilst your care worker feeds you.

[eldanielfire]

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Knock-on

The issue I see with that is the ball touched LRZs leg and went backwards before it hit the ground. I think it even bounced off the England player's leg before it hit the ground. Plenty of times players fumbled balls in different situations, it bounces to the ground behind them and refs shout "backwards" and play on.

[eldanielfire]

A bigger question that ref calls, is how on earth has England's discipline gone backwards so quickly? It's now at Martin Johnson slamming his fists era England (which was 10+ years ago now ) after they were doing everything so near perfectly in 2019?

[Kawazaki]

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Knock-on

The issue I see with that is the ball touched LRZs leg and went backwards before it hit the ground. I think it even bounced off the England player's leg before it hit the ground. Plenty of times players fumbled balls in different situations, it bounces to the ground behind them and refs shout "backwards" and play on.

Are you mad? The ball clearly went forwards off LRZ's right hand, then hit his right leg, then rebounded back, hit Slade, and then went forwards towards the England goal line.

It was a knock-on. As clear at day. Not marginal. Not even close to marginal.

[Ymx]

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Knock-on

The issue I see with that is the ball touched LRZs leg and went backwards before it hit the ground. I think it even bounced off the England player's leg before it hit the ground. Plenty of times players fumbled balls in different situations, it bounces to the ground behind them and refs shout "backwards" and play on.

I covered that in prev post. It can hit the same player all it likes, all that matters then is the final outcome, did he catch it, or the other ?
It was the other (ground/another) and therefore a knock on.

I’m sure we will see clarification this week on it by a ref. And then one of us can be all smug. Me

[Uncle fester]

If it said "the ball touches the ground, another player or a different body part of the same player" then you'd have a point.

But the ball went backward off the player before it hit the ground or another player therefore it's not a knock on.

It initially went forward which sets the first criteria in action.

Then out of the clearly specified options the first to occur is that it hits the ground.

I’d also add if it hits the orig player in the mean time it doesn’t matter. If he then re gathers it it’s fine. He can juggle it on his body as many times as happens.

All that matters is whether he caught it, or whether it hits ground / another

[Uncle fester]

How do you lose control of the ball into yourself, have it bounce off yourself the opposite direction, and not have a knock-on because of one of those two things? Especially when you're running forward. There's no way that ball wasn't fumbled forward initially.

It's a weird argument because if the refs come out and say actually, that's not a knock-on, then it invalidates literally thousands of decisions made the other way over the years. All very odd.

Anyway, don't want to bang on about it, it's one of those rare situations where all the onfield players knew it was a fuckup, the pundits all knew it was a fuckup, but the officials did their own thing. Not the first time. Won't be the last. Happily Wales made it irrelevant.

Ah no I get you. In real time, I called it as a knock on and was convinced that Williams also dropped it on the line so me with whistle would have disallowed the try twice.

But...
They have the benefit of the TMO and in the strict letter of the law, it's not a knock on.

Put it to you this way, you try to catch a pass but fumble it forward. Before it hits anybody or the ground, you lunge forward to try to regather and it then goes backwards.
Is it a knock on?
No, it isn't. This is pretty much the same.

Instead of regathering you instead knock it down and then it bounces backwards. Knock on?

The law says forward. Do you have an example in mind or is this just theoretical?

[Ymx]

I’ll accept all of your apologies in the week

[Biffer]

Because you are a utter fucking prick, fucking destroyed England.

Well fuck you too you pretendy taff cunt.

Pretendy what word is that, I don't fucking care that you may be a bit slow, you cannot make up words, dumb fucking ass.
and stop dribbling whilst your care worker feeds you.

Aren’t you a sweetheart. It’s not wise to drink on an empty head.

[JM2K6]

Ah no I get you. In real time, I called it as a knock on and was convinced that Williams also dropped it on the line so me with whistle would have disallowed the try twice.

But...
They have the benefit of the TMO and in the strict letter of the law, it's not a knock on.

Put it to you this way, you try to catch a pass but fumble it forward. Before it hits anybody or the ground, you lunge forward to try to regather and it then goes backwards.
Is it a knock on?
No, it isn't. This is pretty much the same.

Instead of regathering you instead knock it down and then it bounces backwards. Knock on?

The law says forward. Do you have an example in mind or is this just theoretical?

Theory. It would be given by every ref in the world. Though apparently isn't forward. This is a sea change in how the game is officiated.

I doubt it'll actually work out that way, though.

[Hal Jordan]

I’ll accept all of your apologies in the week

To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee.

[fishfoodie]

I for one, am waiting for Jeff's; mildly euphoric; & exceptionally drunk ratings

[Edit] I see he'd already done them on some alt-right website; come on Jeff, come over to a proper Rugby board ...

Jeff's All New and Orgasmic Wales Ratings v England

15. Liam Williams – Terrible effort in trying to take down Youngs for his try, and also got charged down, but was solid enough otherwise. 6/10

14. Lous Rees-Zammit – Great tracking stopped an almost certain try in one instance, and was good, if not spectacular, across the rest of his game. 7/10

13. George North – Showed why he’ll never be an elite outside centre. Got caught jamming in constantly, and in one instance, left everyone else high and dry when he rushed out of the line. Did make some good carries and hits though. 5/10

12. Jon Davies – Totally anonymous. Even in his pomp, his worth was always as a defender tracking and shutting down the outside channels. If he’s deemed too slow to do that role, then he brings absolutely nothing at IC. 4/10

11. Josh Adams – Good defence, good kicking and decent on the ball when it finally made it to him. Continues to be Wales' most rounded back. 7/10

10. Dan Biggar – Solid kicking, but that’s about it. Sheedy was a step up in all playing departments (and nailed his kicks). The writing could be on the wall for Biggar’s starting position. 5/10

9. Kieran Hardy – Bit of a mixed bag, but a lot more good than bad. Took his try very well, but he ended up slowing the game to an almost standstill at the rucks due to the relentless English pressure. 7/10

8. Taulupe Faletau – Back to near peak form. It was essentially a competition with Billy V to see who starts at 8 or the Lions, and Faletau took it (although I thought Billy V played his best game for England for some time). Big carries, almost top Welsh tackler, and high work-rate across the pitch. 8/10

7. Justin Tipuric – Usual industrious performance from a man who simply doesn’t do poor performances. 7/10

6. Josh Navidi – It was a good, combative display. However, I feel there’s still another gear (or two) in his game. We still shipped yards on the gainline. When Navidi is on the very top of his game, he’s able to stop those types of charges. 7/10

5. Alun Wyn Jones – At the beginning of the championship, few people would have had him as a Lions starter, but he continues to impress. Outworked the much vaunted Itoje across pretty much every metric. 7/10

4. Adam Beard – Borderline underwhelming game from Beard. Didn’t really do much of anything. 5/10

3. Tom Francis – Struggled in the scrum, but put in a decent amount of tackles. 5/10

2. Ken Owens – Lineout was once again just about all right. Didn’t get up to much otherwise. 5/10

1. Wyn Jones – Solid on his side of the scrum, and made at least one decent carry. 5/10


Team Average: 6/10


Tactics Talk

The narrative of being lucky will persist, and there may be more than a grain of truth to it, but in all our wins this tournament, we’ve always worked hard to be in the fight…and that has nothing to do with the opposition or refs. Whether that is because of Pivac, or because if residual steel from the Gatland era is a more difficult question to answer, but we’ve definitely got that knack that solid teams have to know how to win games. That is ultimately what has won us games, the ability to do the right things in the right areas at the right times.

On the flipside, our defence was brutally exposed on a number of occasions. It’s still a dam sight better than the Byron era, but whenever England actually managed to generate some speed in the rucks, they were able to outflank us with ease. Both North, and Halaholo got caught jamming in, and we were left to scramble several times.

Onto Italy next. They’ve looked poor against pretty much everyone, which probably means it’s time for their one good game of the season against us. Having said that, we should have too much for them. The most improbable Slam ever is still on!

[Uncle fester]

Instead of regathering you instead knock it down and then it bounces backwards. Knock on?

The law says forward. Do you have an example in mind or is this just theoretical?

Theory. It would be given by every ref in the world. Though apparently isn't forward. This is a sea change in how the game is officiated.

I doubt it'll actually work out that way, though.

Agreed but downward is the limit. Backwards cannot be forwards.

[JM2K6]

The law says forward. Do you have an example in mind or is this just theoretical?

Theory. It would be given by every ref in the world. Though apparently isn't forward. This is a sea change in how the game is officiated.

I doubt it'll actually work out that way, though.

Agreed but downward is the limit. Backwards cannot be forwards.

If you fumble it and then knock it down, while moving forward? Okay. We disagree.

[GogLais]

I was feeling slightly guilty about the first try - well not really - but having just watched it again, Farrell was supposed to be having a word with his team. However, at least two English water carriers came on to the pitch for a chat for no apparent reason. Farrell had ample time to get his message over.

[Zapp Bannigan]

How does this shit a Welsh team win a triple crown.

Because you are a utter fucking prick, fucking destroyed England.

Whoops.

[eldanielfire]

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Knock-on

The issue I see with that is the ball touched LRZs leg and went backwards before it hit the ground. I think it even bounced off the England player's leg before it hit the ground. Plenty of times players fumbled balls in different situations, it bounces to the ground behind them and refs shout "backwards" and play on.

Are you mad? The ball clearly went forwards off LRZ's right hand, then hit his right leg, then rebounded back, hit Slade, and then went forwards towards the England goal line.

It was a knock-on. As clear at day. Not marginal. Not even close to marginal.

I see you ignored the fact it hit his left hand and went backwards onto his trailing le and went backwards again. As a few have said it's not called a knock on until it hits the floor and it came of LRZ and went backwards onto an England player.

[Openside]

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Knock-on

The issue I see with that is the ball touched LRZs leg and went backwards before it hit the ground. I think it even bounced off the England player's leg before it hit the ground. Plenty of times players fumbled balls in different situations, it bounces to the ground behind them and refs shout "backwards" and play on.

Are you mad? The ball clearly went forwards off LRZ's right hand, then hit his right leg, then rebounded back, hit Slade, and then went forwards towards the England goal line.

It was a knock-on. As clear at day. Not marginal. Not even close to marginal.

Correct, really what is the point of the TMO when it’s as clear as day. If you allow this then every time a player fumbles a ball as long as he can get his leg to the ball before it touches the ground he can claim he was kicking it....

[Openside]

I was feeling slightly guilty about the first try - well not really - but having just watched it again, Farrell was supposed to be having a word with his team. However, at least two English water carriers came on to the pitch for a chat for no apparent reason. Farrell had ample time to get his message over.

He had gathered the whole team in, you can’t give 1 seconds notice the game is going to restart. When they are gathered round the captain. This ref is going to have an uncomfortable review meeting.

[Ymx]

How does this shit a Welsh team win a triple crown.

Because you are a utter fucking prick, fucking destroyed England.

Whoops.

[Uncle fester]

The issue I see with that is the ball touched LRZs leg and went backwards before it hit the ground. I think it even bounced off the England player's leg before it hit the ground. Plenty of times players fumbled balls in different situations, it bounces to the ground behind them and refs shout "backwards" and play on.

Are you mad? The ball clearly went forwards off LRZ's right hand, then hit his right leg, then rebounded back, hit Slade, and then went forwards towards the England goal line.

It was a knock-on. As clear at day. Not marginal. Not even close to marginal.

Correct, really what is the point of the TMO when it’s as clear as day. If you allow this then every time a player fumbles a ball as long as he can get his leg to the ball before it touches the ground he can claim he was kicking it....

Forwards sure.

And your suggestion if he kicks it backwards?

[Slick]

Just watched the 2nd half.... As a team, England are dire. Not to mention that Eddie invented “finisher” then doesn’t have the confidence in the finishers to let them on the pitch.

As usual England also think they are full of world class players when the reality is they have some very good players but no real world class. Itoje a liability, May hilariously not close to world class etc. Curry, not far off. Anyone else? No.

[fishfoodie]

A bigger question that ref calls, is how on earth has England's discipline gone backwards so quickly? It's now at Martin Johnson slamming his fists era England (which was 10+ years ago now ) after they were doing everything so near perfectly in 2019?

As someone said; the top two inches !

England's penalties weren't even excusable on the grounds of new enforcement; but just piss poor reaction to the Ref; & taking on board, what he was enforcing on the day.

To be fair to the Refs; they've all being hot on shots around to the head; & not rolling away; but the offside line has always been where it is; it's just down to the players to recognize that a particular ref, ( and ARs), are on the ball about calling OS. This is always where it's up to the Captain; or indeed the forwards & backs Captains; to watch what's happening; & react, & once they work out the lie of the land; make sure all the other players know how best to act.

[Slick]

As I say, just watched the 2nd half.

For rugby, that was a great interview from Farrell. I am a big fan of him anyway, but that was class

[BnM]

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Knock-on

He knocked it on with one hand, lost control didn't gather lost the ball hit his body which I think is irrelevant and then hit the ground. Never had any control over that ball, definitely batted it forward and then it hit the ground. Knock on QED??

[Slick]

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Knock-on

He knocked it on with one hand, lost control didn't gather lost the ball hit his body which I think is irrelevant and then hit the ground. Never had any control over that ball, definitely batted it forward and then it hit the ground. Knock on QED??

As the dust settles it seems, from what I’m reading, that it was the correct decision. Worth saying that it was 4 international standard refs that agreed on it.

[BnM]

Nigels opinion https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... gland.html

Sir Clive's https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... tries.html

[BnM]

Nigel Try 1

I have sympathy for Owen Farrell and England. What the referee did may have been correct by the letter of the law, but the fair thing would have been to allow England to reset their defence before putting the time back on.

He asked Farrell to speak to his team about their discipline, and England were in that huddle because he asked them to be.

My game management as a referee in that situation would be to say to myself: 'Right, I have asked him to speak to his players. I need to be sure that I give them enough time to get back into defence.' The referee did not do that.

Nigel Try 2

Wales' second try should not have been awarded. It was a knock-on by Louis Rees-Zammit.

The law states that if a player loses control of the ball forward, he must regain possession of it otherwise it is a knock-on. Rees-Zammit touched the ball and it went down and forward on to his leg, then backwards.

The key thing here is that had Rees-Zammit's hand not touched the ball, it would have been play on. But it did. He lost control of the ball with his hands and failed to regain possession. That is a knock-on.

If you have any questions, just look at Rees-Zammit's face when the try is awarded. That gives you the answer you need.

You cannot just point the finger at the referee. There were four officials looking at it and between them they should have come to the correct decision. I heard the TMO say that the ball went backwards off the player's leg. That is correct. But what they failed to mention was that it came off his hand first. It's a knock-on.

[BnM]

[sockwithaticket]

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Knock-on

He knocked it on with one hand, lost control didn't gather lost the ball hit his body which I think is irrelevant and then hit the ground. Never had any control over that ball, definitely batted it forward and then it hit the ground. Knock on QED??

As the dust settles it seems, from what I’m reading, that it was the correct decision. Worth saying that it was 4 international standard refs that agreed on it.

That's not particularly sound reasoning tbh. International calibre reffing teams have issued yellow cards that end up being citings and bans, i.e. they got the on field decision wrong.

[Plato’sCave]

Nigel Try 1

I have sympathy for Owen Farrell and England. What the referee did may have been correct by the letter of the law, but the fair thing would have been to allow England to reset their defence before putting the time back on.

He asked Farrell to speak to his team about their discipline, and England were in that huddle because he asked them to be.

My game management as a referee in that situation would be to say to myself: 'Right, I have asked him to speak to his players. I need to be sure that I give them enough time to get back into defence.' The referee did not do that.

Nigel Try 2

Wales' second try should not have been awarded. It was a knock-on by Louis Rees-Zammit.

The law states that if a player loses control of the ball forward, he must regain possession of it otherwise it is a knock-on. Rees-Zammit touched the ball and it went down and forward on to his leg, then backwards.

The key thing here is that had Rees-Zammit's hand not touched the ball, it would have been play on. But it did. He lost control of the ball with his hands and failed to regain possession. That is a knock-on.

If you have any questions, just look at Rees-Zammit's face when the try is awarded. That gives you the answer you need.

You cannot just point the finger at the referee. There were four officials looking at it and between them they should have come to the correct decision. I heard the TMO say that the ball went backwards off the player's leg. That is correct. But what they failed to mention was that it came off his hand first. It's a knock-on.

Fascinating, but it amounts to still a win. (I’m being gracious here)

[Plato’sCave]

A bigger question that ref calls, is how on earth has England's discipline gone backwards so quickly? It's now at Martin Johnson slamming his fists era England (which was 10+ years ago now ) after they were doing everything so near perfectly in 2019?

England’s discipline, like any other team is dictated by the pressure of the opposing team.

A compromise to discipline is a feature of the dominance of the opposite side.

[Ovals]

Forget the ref - we were 24 all and had the game at our mercy - we then proceeded to gift them a series of dumb penalties and 9 points - that's where we lost the game. Pure stupidity by the players.

The bench were dire when they came on.

Wales are not a very good side - but they will be going into the final 6n game with 4 wins and a chance of a grandslam - whilst only Italy will finish below us.

Wales are not A very good side, we put 40 points on you English cunts, so that must mean England are fucking shit, wake up you soft headed prick.
Stop watching fantasy island.

We know. We've been telling you for ages that England are rubbish. You must be hard of hearing or just very stupid. We'll finish 2nd from bottom in this 6N - and we're just lucky that Italy are still that bad that even our shambolic side can beat them.

God knows how many Ireland and France will beat us by if we ship 40 points to that Welsh side. We'll need the luck of the Welsh to keep the scorelines respectable.

At least it means are players won't be getting flogged to death on the Lions tour - I doubt many wil get picked after this 6N.

[assfly]

Regardless of the two controversial tries, England were horrific in the second half. The better team won in the end.

[Torquemada 1420]

If someone travelling at pace loses control of the ball and it bounces off their body I cannot for the life of me see how it's not gone forward but hey, it was a decision that even LRZ knew was a joke, doesn't matter, England got themselves back into it and continued to implode.

To start with, your comment on Itoje demonstrates what we already know: players aren't exactly the best judge of the laws.

Next, the way I read the law ^^^^ is that it's a knock on but it's clear from other posts and the storm of debate on media that the scenario is ambiguous. The beeb lot categorically stated post match that is was NOT a knock on and I have to assume they have better access to resources than I. Maybe there's a WR directive somewhere on this?

Finally, for Eng to whine about
- ONE possibly not knock on
- in a game which they lost by considerably more than the margin that call resulted in
- when they benefited from multiple clear knock ons to win the last 6N
- and at least another blatant one from May in the build up to the 1st try v Italy
is priceless.

[Torquemada 1420]

Don’t worry, England lost so the vultures are circling. Never mind the commentators were literally laughing at how bad it was, that’s just how it is

Christ, what a bunch of f**king hypocrites you are. Tell you what: hand back the 6N crown to France and then we'll discuss.

As an aside, Sam Larner (I know he does stuff on PR but he is excellent on the technicalities) wrote
Gauzere is right. You don't get the opportunity to line up all your men first. This isn't a battle in the 7th century.

— Sam Larner (@SamLStandsUp) February 27, 2021

Also from another pro

Lewis Moody @LewisMoody7 ·14h

Tough from the ref with the time allowed after Farrell spoke to players. but school boy from england not having players aware at all times

There is nothing in the Laws on this incident other that when the ref calls time back on, that's it. We see something akin to this all the time when players take quick taps from pens and sometime they get to go and others, much to their irritation, they are called back because the ref is doing something.

FWIW, I think Gauzere was wrong in spirit here (not law) because he permitted Farrell to speak to his players and should have waited until that had been done. I think we'll see something from WR to clear these situations up but this one is an oddity. I'd like to see quick taps given far more greens because that is a regular problem.

Oh. And just for you. Classy English fans
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... -interview

[Torquemada 1420]

On Itoje:

Pivac (and Bernol) pointed out that he conceded 5 pens alone (out of 14?) and usually that would merit a yellow card. Don't hear the English pointing out how overly lenient Gauzere was on their shoe in for Lions' capt.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... ales-clash

AND

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/b ... 40977.html

[tc27]

The most annoying thing is we cant too upset about the two tries that shouldn't have being because of the awful last ten minutes that meant we lost by more than 14.

[Torquemada 1420]

The most annoying thing is we cant too upset about the two tries that shouldn't have being because of the awful last ten minutes that meant we lost by more than 14.

Yup and that has always been my own benchmark i.e. if you contributed towards your own loss , then don't go looking for excuses elsewhere.

[Line6 HXFX]

England can have no complaints. They came to Cardiff and played like complete dicks, got on the wrong side of the ref, completely shit the bed on the discipline front, folded under pressure on all fronts and lost heavily.
Our fine upstanding chaps were absolute angel's, in comparison, the finest of gentlemen.
You have to love this Welsh team.
I actually get the feeling Eddie wants England to lose matches like this, heavy losses and with controversy they can stoke etc, so they have lots of things in the tank to be all resent'tarded and angry about going forward.

This is actually great for England.