6 nations 2021 Scrum down in the lockdown

[Uncle fester]

Very decent come back from Genge to be fair.

Still comes across as a bit of a cock a lot of the time

Majority of top level sportsmen are.
Or their level of self-confidence can come across that way.

[The Druid]

Fair play like.
And a very special ending.

[Plato’sCave]

Fair play like.
And a very special ending.

Top bantz Joe.

[clive]

The England problems with the ref starts with the very first carry by May in the first few minutes of the match. England get the ball to the edge of the Welsh defence, May carries up and is tackled by LRZ with North in very close attendance. As May hits the deck, North who is arguably part of the tackle, goes straight to a jackal position over May but May's momentum takes him forward and North goes beyond the ball and straight onto both of his forearms (a clear full penalty to England). As Slade, Farrell and Watson hit the ruck, May throws in a single roll with his momentum before presenting the ball but Gauzere penalises May - the attacking team - in the second minute of the game with a full penalty. It's unnecessary, egregious and, unfortunately, an omen of things to come.

Gauzere was abysmal.

You can see this penalty here...

Yes the ref was so abysmal you would think any smart team would play to the ref, how on earth did England lose, Oh hold on.

[JM2K6]

Jutge and Gauzere admit those two decisions were errors. Fair enough, glad no-one was silly enough to argue the knock-on in particular.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

Shit happens.

[Plato’sCave]

I’ll agree to take the 2 point moral victory as an addition to the 16 point scoreboard win.

Everyone happy now?

[GogLais]

I’ll agree to take the 2 point moral victory as an addition to the 16 point scoreboard win.

Everyone happy now?

Can we add the six points from the two penalties that would otherwise have been kicked? I think I’m right in thinking we were playing advantage when Liam Wms scored his try.

[Plato’sCave]

I’ll agree to take the 2 point moral victory as an addition to the 16 point scoreboard win.

Everyone happy now?

Can we add the six points from the two penalties that would otherwise have been kicked? I think I’m right in thinking we were playing advantage when Liam Wms scored his try.

Yes, with games played in alternative universes like this one where we didn’t put 40 on them we can do anything we like.

Any England points scored after the Adams try are also all up for question too. It would be a different game after all. We may have won by 60. That’s how this land of make believe works.

[GogLais]

I’ll agree to take the 2 point moral victory as an addition to the 16 point scoreboard win.

Everyone happy now?

Can we add the six points from the two penalties that would otherwise have been kicked? I think I’m right in thinking we were playing advantage when Liam Wms scored his try.

Yes, with games played in alternative universes like this one where we didn’t put 40 on them we can do anything we like.

Any England points scored after the Adams try are also all up for question too. It would be a different game after all. We may have won by 60. That’s how this land of make believe works.

I’ll settle for this universe for now. Even if those tries hadn’t have been awarded we’d have still been ensconced deep into English territory so given our attacking power we’d almost certainly have got a couple of tries eventually.

[Kawazaki]

Jutge and Gauzere admit those two decisions were errors. Fair enough, glad no-one was silly enough to argue the knock-on in particular.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

Shit happens.

A pity Jutge ruins it slightly by adding the comment that Gauzere is an "excellent international referee". The captain of the Titanic was an excellent skipper bar one slight navigational mishap.

[Paddington Bear]

Jutge and Gauzere admit those two decisions were errors. Fair enough, glad no-one was silly enough to argue the knock-on in particular.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

Shit happens.

Probably time to close this case. It isn't like we've never got lucky before. Hurts but there we are, not like it stopped a grand slam in it's tracks.

[Uncle fester]

The England problems with the ref starts with the very first carry by May in the first few minutes of the match. England get the ball to the edge of the Welsh defence, May carries up and is tackled by LRZ with North in very close attendance. As May hits the deck, North who is arguably part of the tackle, goes straight to a jackal position over May but May's momentum takes him forward and North goes beyond the ball and straight onto both of his forearms (a clear full penalty to England). As Slade, Farrell and Watson hit the ruck, May throws in a single roll with his momentum before presenting the ball but Gauzere penalises May - the attacking team - in the second minute of the game with a full penalty. It's unnecessary, egregious and, unfortunately, an omen of things to come.

Gauzere was abysmal.

You can see this penalty here...

Yes the ref was so abysmal you would think any smart team would play to the ref, how on earth did England lose, Oh hold on.

Post-tackle rolls to prevent or obstruct a jackal no longer allowed.

[Ymx]

Jutge and Gauzere admit those two decisions were errors. Fair enough, glad no-one was silly enough to argue the knock-on in particular.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

Shit happens.

Good point JM.

Where’s Fester, Homer and EDF gone?

[TB63]

Jutge and Gauzere admit those two decisions were errors. Fair enough, glad no-one was silly enough to argue the knock-on in particular.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

Shit happens.

Good point JM.

Where’s Fester, Homer and EDF gone?

Have you checked down the back of the sofa?..

[tc27]

I am he admitted it was a mistake which shuts up the usual bores online.

England have gotten decisions before - Farrels should charge vs SA in 2018 comes to mind. Life moves on.

[Openside]

I’m the one saying it’s a knock on OS

Apols, someone must have left a quote in the wrong place...it seemed to suggest you were back the on field decision. Or I have misinterpreted in a hurry (always possible)

I was surprised to see a sensible Surrey man talking gobbledygook

Speaking of the local area. Don’t know about you but the sun of last couple of days was both great and a killer. Golf clubs were twitching, and I’ve completely forgotten how bad I am at golf.

golf is bizarre the more I play the more I want to play and vice versa

[Hal Jordan]

I am he admitted it was a mistake which shuts up the usual bores online.

England have gotten decisions before - Farrels should charge vs SA in 2018 comes to mind. Life moves on.

Is that his "tackle" near the end of the match that made me go, "You stupid cunt!" when he did it?

Followed up the week after by one on the Australian lock (Rodda?) on the try line.

[shaggy]

Jutge and Gauzere admit those two decisions were errors. Fair enough, glad no-one was silly enough to argue the knock-on in particular.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

Shit happens.

Sounds like Gauzere needs some unconscious bias training.

[Paddington Bear]

I am he admitted it was a mistake which shuts up the usual bores online.

England have gotten decisions before - Farrels should charge vs SA in 2018 comes to mind. Life moves on.

Is that his "tackle" near the end of the match that made me go, "You stupid cunt!" when he did it?

Followed up the week after by one on the Australian lock (Rodda?) on the try line.

It was the shoulder charge in the middle of the park that won us the game but should have lost it.

[tc27]

I am he admitted it was a mistake which shuts up the usual bores online.

England have gotten decisions before - Farrels should charge vs SA in 2018 comes to mind. Life moves on.

Is that his "tackle" near the end of the match that made me go, "You stupid cunt!" when he did it?

Followed up the week after by one on the Australian lock (Rodda?) on the try line.

Yes the one vs SA was a clear cut easy kickable penalty that would have won SA the game.

[Sandstorm]

I am he admitted it was a mistake which shuts up the usual bores online.

England have gotten decisions before - Farrels should charge vs SA in 2018 comes to mind. Life moves on.

Is that his "tackle" near the end of the match that made me go, "You stupid cunt!" when he did it?

Followed up the week after by one on the Australian lock (Rodda?) on the try line.

Yes the one vs SA was a clear cut easy kickable penalty that would have won SA the game.

Stupid twat Saffer centre should have stayed down!!

[Uncle fester]

Jutge and Gauzere admit those two decisions were errors. Fair enough, glad no-one was silly enough to argue the knock-on in particular.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

Shit happens.

Good point JM.

Where’s Fester, Homer and EDF gone?

Have you checked down the back of the sofa?..

No biggie. Owen Doyle gives it both barrels in the Irish Times also.
Still a lot of debate and it's falling either side of the letter of the laws versus spirit of the laws. Spirit of the laws can be a dodgy place to be sometimes.

It's interesting to look at the wording of what Jutge said though:

With regard to the second try, I think there is a tendency to refer to the TMO too often when one can make the call oneself on the pitch and stick with it, which if Pascal had whistled for a knock-on there would have meant no appeal by the TMO to review it.

It reminds me of advice I was given years ago, which was along the lines of "A ref's decision should be clear, fast & correct. Any two of the three will do".
Gauzere plus his team of three were not clear why the decision was being made. It certainly wasn't fast and that leads to prolonged debate as to whether it was correct.

Jutge's approach is make the decision fast + clear and let the losers debate the accuracy later.
A member of Gauzere's reviewing team happens to disagree with Jutge and their appraisal (word doc) is floating around whatsapp (their verdict was try 1 = no try but try 2 = try).

[JM2K6]

I think you do have to consider these other words he used: "There is a loss of control, the ball goes forward, so it’s a knock on."

Basically his reasoning boils down to "use some common sense ffs", which is pretty much the tone of most reasonable discussion around this one anyway.

[Uncle fester]

And refs regularly get pulled up for using "common sense" instead of applying the letter of the law.
By the letter of the law, the ball was not travelling forward when it hit the ground/other player and that's why the officials on Saturday made their call.

Once you go down the "common sense" route, you start getting variations on stuff, when they are trying to get alignment. Extreme end of that would be "but the head high tackle wasn't intentional" or "he wasn't injured".

[Lobby]

And refs regularly get pulled up for using "common sense" instead of applying the letter of the law.
By the letter of the law, the ball was not travelling forward when it hit the ground/other player and that's why the officials on Saturday made their call.

Once you go down the "common sense" route, you start getting variations on stuff, when they are trying to get alignment. Extreme end of that would be "but the head high tackle wasn't intentional" or "he wasn't injured".

Its equally possible to make the case that it was a clear knock on ‘by the letter of the law’

The law states: “Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it”

The ball clearly went forward from his hand, and he failed to catch it again before it hit the ground. There is nothing in the law to say that his losing the ball forward can then be negated if it goes backward after hitting another part of his body.

[JM2K6]

And refs regularly get pulled up for using "common sense" instead of applying the letter of the law.
By the letter of the law, the ball was not travelling forward when it hit the ground/other player and that's why the officials on Saturday made their call.

Once you go down the "common sense" route, you start getting variations on stuff, when they are trying to get alignment. Extreme end of that would be "but the head high tackle wasn't intentional" or "he wasn't injured".

We get variations on literally everything in rugby. It's all subjective in some way. As you and I have already discussed, what the refs did on Saturday may be justifiable with a certain interpretation of the law, but it goes contrary to how the game has been refereed since, well, forever. Jutge made his point pretty clearly I thought, and he is the ultimate authority on this, so fair enough, no?

[BnM]

Maggie on abuse

[sockwithaticket]

I hate this rest week, it sucks all the momentum out of the tournament. Really need a restructure so that it's 2 weeks on - rest - 2 weeks on - rest - super saturday.

[BnM]

I hate this rest week, it sucks all the momentum out of the tournament. Really need a restructure so that it's 2 weeks on - rest - 2 weeks on - rest - super saturday.

Especially given we missed a game as well. This year they've been playing less rugby, there's less going on, did we actually need a break let alone 2

[Openside]

Are you mad? The ball clearly went forwards off LRZ's right hand, then hit his right leg, then rebounded back, hit Slade, and then went forwards towards the England goal line.

It was a knock-on. As clear at day. Not marginal. Not even close to marginal.

Correct, really what is the point of the TMO when it’s as clear as day. If you allow this then every time a player fumbles a ball as long as he can get his leg to the ball before it touches the ground he can claim he was kicking it....

Forwards sure.

And your suggestion if he kicks it backwards?

Still a knock on if you juggle you have to regather or automatic knock on.

[Openside]

The most annoying thing is we cant too upset about the two tries that shouldn't have being because of the awful last ten minutes that meant we lost by more than 14.

That isn't really relevant though as has England ben 14 up or whatever they wouldn't have had to 'chance their arm' that being said Robson and Hill want shooting...

[Hong Kong]

The knock on try should never have been given. End of

The time on try was very poor game management but not against the law.

Gaelic shrug of shoulders

[sockwithaticket]

I hate this rest week, it sucks all the momentum out of the tournament. Really need a restructure so that it's 2 weeks on - rest - 2 weeks on - rest - super saturday.

Especially given we missed a game as well. This year they've been playing less rugby, there's less going on, did we actually need a break let alone 2

True, only the 2 games makes the gap feel longer. Your own team losing doesn't help either...

I think the break weeks help add to the suspense and atmosphere of the tournament, but only if deployed properly. After the first 2 games weeks a week off feels right, we all get time to digest everything we've seen and it builds a sense of anticipation for the next game. Just having one game week before a week off doesn't yield quite the same impact. For me at least.

[Paddington Bear]

I hate this rest week, it sucks all the momentum out of the tournament. Really need a restructure so that it's 2 weeks on - rest - 2 weeks on - rest - super saturday.

Especially given we missed a game as well. This year they've been playing less rugby, there's less going on, did we actually need a break let alone 2

True, only the 2 games makes the gap feel longer. Your own team losing doesn't help either...

I think the break weeks help add to the suspense and atmosphere of the tournament, but only if deployed properly. After the first 2 games weeks a week off feels right, we all get time to digest everything we've seen and it builds a sense of anticipation for the next game. Just having one game week before a week off doesn't yield quite the same impact. For me at least.

Mentioned it before but it just felt liked a robbed weekend, given the only 'proper' game has become a slanging match about the ref.

[Tichtheid]

Especially given we missed a game as well. This year they've been playing less rugby, there's less going on, did we actually need a break let alone 2

True, only the 2 games makes the gap feel longer. Your own team losing doesn't help either...

I think the break weeks help add to the suspense and atmosphere of the tournament, but only if deployed properly. After the first 2 games weeks a week off feels right, we all get time to digest everything we've seen and it builds a sense of anticipation for the next game. Just having one game week before a week off doesn't yield quite the same impact. For me at least.

Mentioned it before but it just felt liked a robbed weekend, given the only 'proper' game has become a slanging match about the ref.

Aye and it exacerbated when your team hasn't played and the only thing you have to look forward to is Edinburgh getting pumped playing 1990s Leicester style rugby.
Though the word "style" is used here in its widest definition.

[sockwithaticket]

True, only the 2 games makes the gap feel longer. Your own team losing doesn't help either...

I think the break weeks help add to the suspense and atmosphere of the tournament, but only if deployed properly. After the first 2 games weeks a week off feels right, we all get time to digest everything we've seen and it builds a sense of anticipation for the next game. Just having one game week before a week off doesn't yield quite the same impact. For me at least.

Mentioned it before but it just felt liked a robbed weekend, given the only 'proper' game has become a slanging match about the ref.

Aye and it exacerbated when your team hasn't played and the only thing you have to look forward to is Edinburgh getting pumped playing 1990s Leicester style rugby.
Though the word "style" is used here in its widest definition.

Feeling very similar with Wasps going through a depressing form collapse. My only rugby bright spot in weeks was England's win over Italy which, for fairly obvious reasons, wasn't that much to celebrate.

[sockwithaticket]

Especially given we missed a game as well. This year they've been playing less rugby, there's less going on, did we actually need a break let alone 2

True, only the 2 games makes the gap feel longer. Your own team losing doesn't help either...

I think the break weeks help add to the suspense and atmosphere of the tournament, but only if deployed properly. After the first 2 games weeks a week off feels right, we all get time to digest everything we've seen and it builds a sense of anticipation for the next game. Just having one game week before a week off doesn't yield quite the same impact. For me at least.

Mentioned it before but it just felt liked a robbed weekend, given the only 'proper' game has become a slanging match about the ref.

I watched a Prem game instead of the Ireland - Italy match. I'm so bored of watching Italy do a few good things, but undermine themselves and ultimately get hammered. Not having done so, though, probably accentuates the feeling of it not being a proper 6 Nations weekend and thus being a big lull in the middle of the tournament.

[JM2K6]

Soup NZ is fun, though.

[Paddington Bear]

True, only the 2 games makes the gap feel longer. Your own team losing doesn't help either...

I think the break weeks help add to the suspense and atmosphere of the tournament, but only if deployed properly. After the first 2 games weeks a week off feels right, we all get time to digest everything we've seen and it builds a sense of anticipation for the next game. Just having one game week before a week off doesn't yield quite the same impact. For me at least.

Mentioned it before but it just felt liked a robbed weekend, given the only 'proper' game has become a slanging match about the ref.

I watched a Prem game instead of the Ireland - Italy match. I'm so bored of watching Italy do a few good things, but undermine themselves and ultimately get hammered. Not having done so, though, probably accentuates the feeling of it not being a proper 6 Nations weekend and thus being a big lull in the middle of the tournament.

If something doesn't change soon I think the broadcasters may force the Italy issue. I'll probably watch the games in lockdown but no way I'm using up precious TV time capital for their games in normal times. If this is increasingly the view of committed rugby fans I assume the casuals have long since given up.

[sockwithaticket]

Mentioned it before but it just felt liked a robbed weekend, given the only 'proper' game has become a slanging match about the ref.

I watched a Prem game instead of the Ireland - Italy match. I'm so bored of watching Italy do a few good things, but undermine themselves and ultimately get hammered. Not having done so, though, probably accentuates the feeling of it not being a proper 6 Nations weekend and thus being a big lull in the middle of the tournament.

If something doesn't change soon I think the broadcasters may force the Italy issue. I'll probably watch the games in lockdown but no way I'm using up precious TV time capital for their games in normal times. If this is increasingly the view of committed rugby fans I assume the casuals have long since given up.

Particularly when it comes off free to air. I don't think someone who's paid a wedge for the rights, nor their advertisers, will appreciate a sharp drop in viewership that correlates strongly with one particular participating nation.