The Official English Rugby Thread

[Paddington Bear]

Always take the 3...

[Saint]

Absolutely thrown this game away

[Saint]

You can see why Taylor's third choice scrummie. And we're desperately short of 8s

[Oxbow]

Well that's ruined my Sunday. I'm still not sure how Saints contrived to throw away a game they should have won easily.

[SaintK]

You can see why Taylor's third choice scrummie. And we're desperately short of 8s

Yep! poor second half

[Torquemada 1420]

WTF? I go away for a while and Saints are now losing to sh*thouse Bath?!!!

[Raggs]

Taken a day to calm down :).

Mako was good I thought, he's not the strongest scrummager, but he's not a liability there either. Good amount of tackles and carried well. Billy is an interesting one, not back to his best, but much improved, and key to a change in strategy. We stopped playing anywhere near as much kick tennis, and instead had him run it back. Running back a kick into an organised defence is usually a sure way to lose to a turnover, but with Billy, he generally hits hard enough, and sucks enough players into the tackle itself, that the turnover simply isn't on, since support is there, and there's too many tacklers in the way for the ref to let it go. Still got more to go, but I like the idea behind it.

Farrell I thought actually had one of his better games for England at 12. He was running more than usual, and did so from early in the game, rather than waiting for the 70th+ minute and for all the defence to be ignoring him completely. No silly/risky tackles that I noticed either. The midfield is still unbalanced though.

Robson came on having no doubt been told to play and get us going, and tried to do exactly that, unfortunately when you play fast and right up in the face of the defence, intercepts can happen. I'd like to see him with the starting role just to see if he can manage a settled game better than a rushed one.

The biggest problem was Itoje. And as pointed out, he's the best we've got, especially with launch and lawes out. I'd still try and bench him though.

[Saint]

You can see why Taylor's third choice scrummie. And we're desperately short of 8s

Yep! poor second half

And we still had chances to win it. Francis took the wrong option towards the end which led to that final held up. If he'd passed it out instead of cutting back there was a guaranteed try

[Paddington Bear]

I thought we played OK. Youngs and Billy were much better. Daly was poor but did offer a bit at times. In attack as we were catching up we looked very good. What happened in the last 10 was all the more disappointing given we’d got ourselves in position for the win.

Discipline was killer but I do think Maro was a little hard done by. The pen for the strip seemed harsh, and IIRC he was called offside from a maul when i don’t think he was. Either way England give penalties when under no pressure, and it’s always hard to win from there.

Nothing really more to say about the ref. We could and should have won in spite of the decisions. My partner heard me use some words she hadn’t heard me use before. No use being victims about it when we’ve got two tough tests ahead.

Jiffy giggling and pretending to give Gauzere MoM will haunt me to my grave.

[Ovals]

Not here to gloat ... honest!

England were very poor again against a mediocre Welsh side, great game to watch though. I honestly can't believe Jones is getting away with being in charge after another debacle. England have a wealth of talent around the premiership yet continue to ignore it and continue to pick guys who are ring rusty and then play a kicking game, badly against Scotland and Wales when both these teams have real talent in their back three. Why? Some other questions:

- why are the Vunipolas picked when both are clearly not match fit and look like they have been on the donuts for the past 9 months? Billy has nothing to offer and must be the slowest 8 I have ever seen, Makko just about manages to scrum ok but neither are fit enough to tackle and get back into defensive line time and time again.
- why not start the best hooker in the league but instead continue to pick a clearly unfit and lacking match hardness George?
- why continue to pick a penalty machine in Itoji - he cost your team the game yesterday?
- why pick Wilson at 6 when he is clearly not good enough at this level?
- Is Youngs the best 9 you have? Surely not?
- Farrell stifles your attack at 12, play him at 10 or not at all!
- Daly is beyond awful and his confidence has collapsed, why continue his pain? You can't pick a 15 just because he kicks the ball a long way with his left boot?

Given the impact of lock down and the interruptions it has caused, and the lack of games at Sarries, surely this was the time to field some of the younger guys who are playing every week for their clubs and are on form at the moment? I would have thought the likes of the Simmons brothers, Dombrandt and Smith at Quins to name just a few should be getting a chance to show what they can do?

Having said all the above, as a Scot, I hope Eddie remains in post for many years and continues to be just as stubborn as he always has been.

Questions that all England supporters have been asking - some for quite some time. And, to which the answer is, Eddie Jones.

[Line6 HXFX]

Slow motion shows Zammit was in full "contact"with the ball, and it went straight down, backwards when it left his hands, England simply cannot argue with it.
There is no law that says you have to be in control of it.
Only that it goes forwards, which it did not. You all must be thinking of a different sport, where drop goals and flicks and tap passes and such like are illegal.
So try.
The first try was fine too, talk to your players does not mean "let's all have three minute under the posts where we can have a little Netflix and chill".
The ref didn't apologise at all, read the statement, he thought he made the correct calls.

"There were two unfortunate events during the match which were tough cases to handle. Pascal Gauzere recognised as such when he spoke to me on the phone."
He just recognised they were difficult decisions. The English media are just the fucking worst.

Guys rugby is a professional sport on and off the pitch, and Wales never ever beat you without massive controversy, as rugby is business. They spent all year hyping England so all the hyping pundits are going to be looking for controversy where there is none, now (in a game that is traditionally a playoff for lions places) more than ever.

You just have to accept defeat and that your team were asleep a lot.
Lack of fitness, lack of game time, just general desperation lead to lack of discipline.

[sockwithaticket]

This discussion was all done in the tournament thread, get the fuck out of this one if all you want to do is troll.

[GogLais]

Slow motion shows Zammit was in full "contact"with the ball, and it went straight down, backwards when it left his hands, England simply cannot argue with it.
There is no law that says you have to be in control of it.
Only that it goes forwards, which it did not. You all must be thinking of a different sport, where drop goals and such like are illegal.
So try.
The first try was fine too, talk to your players does not mean "let's all have three minute under the posts where we can have a little Netflix and chill".
The ref didn't apologise at all, read the statement, he thought he made the correct calls.

"There were two unfortunate events during the match which were tough cases to handle. Pascal Gauzere recognised as such when he spoke to me on the phone."
He just recognised they were difficult decisions. The English media are just the fucking worst.

Guys rugby is a professional sport on and off the pitch, and Wales never ever beat you without massive controversy, as rugby is business. They spent all year hyping England so all the hyping pundits are going to be looking for controversy where there is none, now (in a game that is traditionally a playoff for lions places) more than ever.

You just have to accept defeat and that your team were asleep a lot.
Lack of fitness, lack of game time, just general desperation lead to lack of discipline.

You can add Daley turning his back and walking towards the posts when Hardy took his tap penalty.

[JM2K6]

Piss off, both of you. Especially with the "English media" crap, given it's the Welsh media who wrote headlines like this: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

and some quotes

“From the moment when the referee says ‘time on’ the game can recommence,” Jutge explained. “Except that it was on him [Gauzere] to make sure the English had had material time to reorganise themselves, because it was him who had asked the captain to speak to his players.”

The ball was not under the control of the Welsh wing and went forward on to his thigh
...
There is a loss of control, the ball goes forward, so it’s a knock on.

The insanely partisan nature of some 'fans' really grates, so it'd be fucking wonderful if we could avoid doing this shit in the national threads.

[GogLais]

Piss off, both of you. Especially with the "English media" crap, given it's the Welsh media who wrote headlines like this: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

and some quotes

“From the moment when the referee says ‘time on’ the game can recommence,” Jutge explained. “Except that it was on him [Gauzere] to make sure the English had had material time to reorganise themselves, because it was him who had asked the captain to speak to his players.”

The ball was not under the control of the Welsh wing and went forward on to his thigh
...
There is a loss of control, the ball goes forward, so it’s a knock on.

The insanely partisan nature of some 'fans' really grates, so it'd be fucking wonderful if we could avoid doing this shit in the national threads.

Fair enough, private grief and all that. I may have thought I was in the 6N thread.

[Paddington Bear]

The whole idea of an English rugby thread is so we get some respite from this stuff. We know what you guys think of us, and a rare positive of lockdown has been not being reminded of it in the pub through the 6N.

[JM2K6]

Piss off, both of you. Especially with the "English media" crap, given it's the Welsh media who wrote headlines like this: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... l-19938253

and some quotes

“From the moment when the referee says ‘time on’ the game can recommence,” Jutge explained. “Except that it was on him [Gauzere] to make sure the English had had material time to reorganise themselves, because it was him who had asked the captain to speak to his players.”

The ball was not under the control of the Welsh wing and went forward on to his thigh
...
There is a loss of control, the ball goes forward, so it’s a knock on.

The insanely partisan nature of some 'fans' really grates, so it'd be fucking wonderful if we could avoid doing this shit in the national threads.

Fair enough, private grief and all that. I may have thought I was in the 6N thread.

Fair enough. It's not exactly private grief though - we've moved on from talking about two bad decisions and have already piled into the actual problems England currently has, that were evident well before the Wales match. People acting like we're here wailing and gnashing our teeth is just aggravating.

[sockwithaticket]

Good faith enquiries about players in the Prem, the England team or hot button local issues like promotion/relegation being suspended are welcome.

Re-hashing a debate that's largely been done over in another thread, not so much.

[GogLais]

The whole idea of an English rugby thread is so we get some respite from this stuff. We know what you guys think of us, and a rare positive of lockdown has been not being reminded of it in the pub through the 6N.

I acknowledge I responded to a post about England without paying enough attention to which thread we were in. On a personal note you know nothing of what I think of the English.

[sockwithaticket]

“We want Paolo to put himself in a position to play for England. He’s away with them and it’s up to Eddie what he does with him, they have control of him,” Blackett said.
“From our side, I genuinely think he’ll come back a better player. But if I have any slight doubt I’d just be worried about his game time, 100 per cent. I thought that he got himself into really good form.

Lee Blackett picking up on something that jack Willis mentioned on his Good, Bad & Rugby appearance recently, namely that if you're a fringe player you can end up playing very little rugby during the international window. Even in the before times where you could freely shuttle between club and country the former don't necessarily have a spot for you in the starting team if they've been prepping without you. If you don't get sent back you're, at best, benching for England. Someone like Odogwu now hasn't had a game since 8th January, right at a point when he was bang in form. It can't help maintain the kind of form in training which might see a player elevated to the test side.

[Kawazaki]

“We want Paolo to put himself in a position to play for England. He’s away with them and it’s up to Eddie what he does with him, they have control of him,” Blackett said.
“From our side, I genuinely think he’ll come back a better player. But if I have any slight doubt I’d just be worried about his game time, 100 per cent. I thought that he got himself into really good form.

Lee Blackett picking up on something that jack Willis mentioned on his Good, Bad & Rugby appearance recently, namely that if you're a fringe player you can end up playing very little rugby during the international window. Even in the before times where you could freely shuttle between club and country the former don't necessarily have a spot for you in the starting team if they've been prepping without you. If you don't get sent back you're, at best, benching for England. Someone like Odogwu now hasn't had a game since 8th January, right at a point when he was bang in form. It can't help maintain the kind of form in training which might see a player elevated to the test side.

That is tragic. Fuck you Eddie.

[sockwithaticket]

“We want Paolo to put himself in a position to play for England. He’s away with them and it’s up to Eddie what he does with him, they have control of him,” Blackett said.
“From our side, I genuinely think he’ll come back a better player. But if I have any slight doubt I’d just be worried about his game time, 100 per cent. I thought that he got himself into really good form.

Lee Blackett picking up on something that jack Willis mentioned on his Good, Bad & Rugby appearance recently, namely that if you're a fringe player you can end up playing very little rugby during the international window. Even in the before times where you could freely shuttle between club and country the former don't necessarily have a spot for you in the starting team if they've been prepping without you. If you don't get sent back you're, at best, benching for England. Someone like Odogwu now hasn't had a game since 8th January, right at a point when he was bang in form. It can't help maintain the kind of form in training which might see a player elevated to the test side.

That is tragic. Fuck you Eddie.

In fairness, this year is worsened by the two weeks of Europe that got cancelled in mid-January and the inability/reluctance to let players go back and forth from the England squad due to covid. That concession aside, yeah... at best, he'd be getting a full game for Wasps, but that would mean he's not getting a look in for the test side, so he was only called up to hold tackle bags while Eddie has a look (like so many in the past several years). Most likely he'd be going back to Wasps to bench having not trained with them all week and likely look a little bit worse for that. It definitely doesn't seem like a system designed to give fringe players the best shot at maintaining match sharpness.

[Kawazaki]

It's just window dressing by Jones. He'll pull a few young left-field players into the squad ahead of far more deserving options and/or he'll pull in a form player to appease the media and then never pick them.

He's totally out of control and operating beyond the best interests of his employer's and the general well-being of the game in England. It's becoming disastrous.

When does this cunt's contract end FFS?

[JM2K6]

This has been an issue since the invention of the EPS.

[Kawazaki]

This has been an issue since the invention of the EPS.

Jones isn't using the EPS in good faith.

[fishfoodie]

Lee Blackett picking up on something that jack Willis mentioned on his Good, Bad & Rugby appearance recently, namely that if you're a fringe player you can end up playing very little rugby during the international window. Even in the before times where you could freely shuttle between club and country the former don't necessarily have a spot for you in the starting team if they've been prepping without you. If you don't get sent back you're, at best, benching for England. Someone like Odogwu now hasn't had a game since 8th January, right at a point when he was bang in form. It can't help maintain the kind of form in training which might see a player elevated to the test side.

That is tragic. Fuck you Eddie.

In fairness, this year is worsened by the two weeks of Europe that got cancelled in mid-January and the inability/reluctance to let players go back and forth from the England squad due to covid. That concession aside, yeah... at best, he'd be getting a full game for Wasps, but that would mean he's not getting a look in for the test side, so he was only called up to hold tackle bags while Eddie has a look (like so many in the past several years). Most likely he'd be going back to Wasps to bench having not trained with them all week and likely look a little bit worse for that. It definitely doesn't seem like a system designed to give fringe players the best shot at maintaining match sharpness.

This is why I'd like to see a, committed, parallel 2nd team tournament.

[SaintK]

It's just window dressing by Jones. He'll pull a few young left-field players into the squad ahead of far more deserving options and/or he'll pull in a form player to appease the media and then never pick them.

He's totally out of control and operating beyond the best interests of his employer's and the general well-being of the game in England. It's becoming disastrous.

When does this cunt's contract end FFS?

After the next RWC I’m afraid!! So another 3 years!!!

[sockwithaticket]

That is tragic. Fuck you Eddie.

In fairness, this year is worsened by the two weeks of Europe that got cancelled in mid-January and the inability/reluctance to let players go back and forth from the England squad due to covid. That concession aside, yeah... at best, he'd be getting a full game for Wasps, but that would mean he's not getting a look in for the test side, so he was only called up to hold tackle bags while Eddie has a look (like so many in the past several years). Most likely he'd be going back to Wasps to bench having not trained with them all week and likely look a little bit worse for that. It definitely doesn't seem like a system designed to give fringe players the best shot at maintaining match sharpness.

This is why I'd like to see a, committed, parallel 2nd team tournament.

The problem with that is getting clubs to sign off. Between the seeming baseline levels of injury these days and international call ups (which are more than just English with the way the Welsh and Scots are trawling the league...) a lot of them are stretched pretty thin as it is. Bringing back the A competition would require league fixtures to cease really and that's for Prem clubs. Some of the Celtic Pro14 lot are pretty much gutted just for the main 6 Nations.

[Kawazaki]

It's just window dressing by Jones. He'll pull a few young left-field players into the squad ahead of far more deserving options and/or he'll pull in a form player to appease the media and then never pick them.

He's totally out of control and operating beyond the best interests of his employer's and the general well-being of the game in England. It's becoming disastrous.

When does this cunt's contract end FFS?

After the next RWC I’m afraid!! So another 3 years!!!

That's truly dreadful.

I wouldn't be surprised if the players start to reject him. I know that will mean Jones will eject them from the squad with all the attendant money they get from being an England player, but surely they must have had enough of this idiot by now.

The team is just going to be full of Eddie sycophants like Youngs.

Madness.

[fishfoodie]

In fairness, this year is worsened by the two weeks of Europe that got cancelled in mid-January and the inability/reluctance to let players go back and forth from the England squad due to covid. That concession aside, yeah... at best, he'd be getting a full game for Wasps, but that would mean he's not getting a look in for the test side, so he was only called up to hold tackle bags while Eddie has a look (like so many in the past several years). Most likely he'd be going back to Wasps to bench having not trained with them all week and likely look a little bit worse for that. It definitely doesn't seem like a system designed to give fringe players the best shot at maintaining match sharpness.

This is why I'd like to see a, committed, parallel 2nd team tournament.

The problem with that is getting clubs to sign off. Between the seeming baseline levels of injury these days and international call ups (which are more than just English with the way the Welsh and Scots are trawling the league...) a lot of them are stretched pretty thin as it is. Bringing back the A competition would require league fixtures to cease really and that's for Prem clubs. Some of the Celtic Pro14 lot are pretty much gutted just for the main 6 Nations.

All true; but the pandemic has shown everyone a window of opportunity to restructure competitions & seasons; & there's been an ongoing complaint over the number of fixtures; & the 6N & European competitions have already been restructured to condense them. The pandemic has also shown just how fragile the finances of the majority of clubs/provinces/unions are.

The upcoming rainbow cup will make life, even more interesting; with SA teams potentially competing in; not just the league; but also the European competitions.

[Ovals]

This is why I'd like to see a, committed, parallel 2nd team tournament.

The problem with that is getting clubs to sign off. Between the seeming baseline levels of injury these days and international call ups (which are more than just English with the way the Welsh and Scots are trawling the league...) a lot of them are stretched pretty thin as it is. Bringing back the A competition would require league fixtures to cease really and that's for Prem clubs. Some of the Celtic Pro14 lot are pretty much gutted just for the main 6 Nations.

All true; but the pandemic has shown everyone a window of opportunity to restructure competitions & seasons; & there's been an ongoing complaint over the number of fixtures; & the 6N & European competitions have already been restructured to condense them. The pandemic has also shown just how fragile the finances of the majority of clubs/provinces/unions are.

The upcoming rainbow cup will make life, even more interesting; with SA teams potentially competing in; not just the league; but also the European competitions.

How keen would the Scotch and Welsh be on the SA teams qualitfying for the Champions Cup - would it not mean even less places for them. I don't think the English and French clubs would be that keen either.

[fishfoodie]

The problem with that is getting clubs to sign off. Between the seeming baseline levels of injury these days and international call ups (which are more than just English with the way the Welsh and Scots are trawling the league...) a lot of them are stretched pretty thin as it is. Bringing back the A competition would require league fixtures to cease really and that's for Prem clubs. Some of the Celtic Pro14 lot are pretty much gutted just for the main 6 Nations.

All true; but the pandemic has shown everyone a window of opportunity to restructure competitions & seasons; & there's been an ongoing complaint over the number of fixtures; & the 6N & European competitions have already been restructured to condense them. The pandemic has also shown just how fragile the finances of the majority of clubs/provinces/unions are.

The upcoming rainbow cup will make life, even more interesting; with SA teams potentially competing in; not just the league; but also the European competitions.

How keen would the Scotch and Welsh be on the SA teams qualitfying for the Champions Cup - would it not mean even less places for them. I don't think the English and French clubs would be that keen either.

In Ordinary times; like turkeys look forward to Christmas; but obviously; there's additional money on the table; & the Welsh are capable of great self-delusion

[sockwithaticket]

Found this on reddit, a list of every debutant under Eddie. Simmonds has more caps than I thought.

[JM2K6]

He had a short run of games - 2 sub appearances + one start in Nov 2017, then 3 starts + a sub appearance in 6N 2018. Quite a long time ago by rugby terms - his last match featured Te'o, Wigglesworth, Hartley, Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell as starters. It was the loss to Ireland.

Once Eddie's made his mind up about someone, that's it.

[sockwithaticket]

Yeah, I only remember him from that 6 Nations.

Eddie's metaphoric firing of players into the sun is problematic. I'm still not sure what Lozowski did so much worse than anyone else in the game against Japan to never warrant being picked in a squad again. Especially given Eddie's apparent hard on for hybrids and Saracens players with Loz basically having played across the whole backline at a high level for that team.

[Margin__Walker]

Lions selection (assuming they play) will be interesting this year with respect to English players.

I wonder if the likes of Simmons and Smith are in with a shout. They are consistently performing at a higher level that the incumbents in the England squad.

[sockwithaticket]

Has Gatland taken anyone not playing regular test rugby before? I can't recall.

Ribbans becomes the latest to ascend from the shadow squad to the senior.

[Oxbow]

Has Gatland taken anyone not playing regular test rugby before? I can't recall.

Ribbans becomes the latest to ascend from the shadow squad to the senior.

I can't decide if I'm happy about this or not. He's been in tremendous form and I reckon Ribbans has a far higher ceiling than the likes of Hill or Ewels, but if it takes him away from Saints so he can hold tackle bags/pick up an injury then I'd rather not, thanks. If it was me in charge I'd have him starting alongside Itoje.

[Saint]

Has Gatland taken anyone not playing regular test rugby before? I can't recall.

Ribbans becomes the latest to ascend from the shadow squad to the senior.

Last time out Sinkler and Te'o had 8 caps each only.

2013, Mako Vunipola had 9 caps, Matt Stevens had been retired from international rugby for a year

[Margin__Walker]

Has Gatland taken anyone not playing regular test rugby before? I can't recall.

Ribbans becomes the latest to ascend from the shadow squad to the senior.

Probably not TBF. No one is springing to mind.