The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

There's a fucking world of difference between 20 caps and four minutes. And fuck off with your "teen angst" bullshit; I well remember your claim you'd have dropped the entire England cricket team after the 2013/14 Ashes, so don't start pretending you're some incredible voice of reason.

Smith, Gregan, and Larkham... all world class players who will go down in history as some of the best there's been in their positions. And we're talking Ben Youngs, Elliot Daly, and Billy Vunipola? Do me a favour. His "high bar" apparently doesn't extend to the performances of his own preferred players, even when they're coming out and saying they're playing like shit.

[sockwithaticket]

TBF he's not alone in that. English coaches seem to have this weird inferiority complex about English rugby that means they're always looking for someone magic to come in from outside who'll be the Great Redeemer and turn the team into world beaters. Either Rugby League or Super Rugby. Henry Paul, Andy Farrell, Lesley Vainikolo, Shontayne Hape, Sam Burgess, Brad Shields - it's a complex that has spanned a lot of coaches.

I suppose you'd have to put Jason Robinson in there too, though in that case it worked!

It's always worse when someone from outside thinks we're shit and Eddie has less of an excuse than many predecessors, he's sitting on possibly the greatest amount of EQP talent there's ever been.

Shields is such an interesting case for Eddie's failings as perceived by us - back row is not a shortage position and yet he felt the need to parachute someone from Super Rugby in literally just off the plane and had the poor bugger play at lock because Eddie decided to bin off a 19/20 year old after 27 minutes (seemingly forever at this point) and hadn't brought enough locks on tour in the first place. Shields was subsequently picked in the back row for subsequent test series despite being in form which shouldn't really have seen him picked for his club, let alone the national side. He turned his form around last year and is now actually at a point where I wouldn't complain if he was called up (although I don't think he should be, there are still better options), yet being injured ahead of the world cup seems to have resulted in Eddie forgetting he exists. Weird all around.

[Niegs]

Eddie with some VERY CONVINCING comments about finding new 9s and 10s:

“I am going to be up and down the freeways the next few weeks,” he said. “We have a list of 10-12 players we are going to look at. There are some good young guys, particularly in the 9s and 10s and that is the hardest area to adapt to Test rugby.

“There are some young 10s like Atkinson, Marcus Smith, Fin Smith, Simmonds at Exeter. They are all possibly going to have the opportunity to step up to the plate. It is the toughest position in world rugby. You have so much pressure, so little time and space, a lot of decisions to make so it’s a fantastic opportunity for one of the young guys to step up.”

"I'll just mention every young English 10 I can think of, and nobody will think it's weird I'm talking about Fin Smith and Charlie Atkinson in the same breath as Joe Simmonds and Marcus Smith. Also apparently we've never actually watched any of the alternative 9s and 10s before."

Number 8 is fine, of course

If you want more ‘evidence’ re: his spoofer status... unless he’s just blowing smoke to some journo ... are FH’s under that much pressure from opposition the way they tend to play?

Most phases are 9 passing to forwards, with 10 out the back to kick or shovel wide. It’s a generalization, as they do lead the attack from broken play or on the edges, but I think it’s safe to say 10s were under more pressure in the days between the start of rush defences and the advent of forward pod systems dominating the middle of the pitch. Surely, you’d have given someone like M Smith or Simmonds autumn internationals, tours, Italy by now, esp as Ford / Farrell aren’t irreplaceable Dan Carters.

So, so many questions like this for years makes me think he’s no where near as good a coach / manager as he gets credit for.

[Kawazaki]

So, so many questions like this for years makes me think he’s no where near as good a coach / manager as he gets credit for.

Jones is a grifter. He's making this shit up on the fly.

And for £15k a week for the next 30 months he'll keep bluffing.

[Paddington Bear]

Jones isn't a spoofer. He's an excellent coach who has a giant ego and loves to play the press.

On the one hand, this has meant we've had five years or so of the pretty rapacious English media barely laying a glove on our players as he's given them all the lines they need every week. In that time we've won 3 6N titles, reached a world cup final and beaten all Tier 1 nations comfortably at some point.
On the other, he now appears to have selected himself into a dispute with the media because he's so bloody stubborn, and that has been a major contributor to us losing to all three other home nations having barely fired a shot whilst doing so. Not to mention two fifth finishes in the 6N along the way.

On top of that I think he is genuinely scarred by the World Cup final, where previously in that tournament and in the run up he'd played an absolute blinder. England's anti-rugby since has to be seen in the context of the absolute bullying dealt out to us in that match.

I would love, genuinely, him to use the lengthy lay off until our next proper international (greatest respect to the Americans and Canadians, but they know what I mean) to put this tournament behind him, try some new players who clearly deserve at the very least a chance, and play a bit more rugby. I'm on the fence as to whether he'll be able to do it though, so as much as I think we'll miss him when he's gone I won't get too teary if he is shown the door (I suspect he will be).

[Kawazaki]

Jones is done. I agree he was a very good rugby coach once but mostly not as the number one. He said himself in an interview with Dallaglio back in 2016 that he stayed too long with Australia and that was only four years before they were sick to death of him (after reaching a RWC final and numerous Bledisloes etc), he'll be in his eighth fucking year by the time of the next RWC.

[Glaston]

Jones needs a sabbatical or 6 months on a beach somewhere.

[Ovals]

How does he prepare adequately for Youngs not being there if the players he's looked at simply aren't good enough? I do as it happens think he could have done more in this area, and I certainly didn't like using some of the limited time there was to look at Heinz and Wigglesworth, but clearly he has looked at other players.

There is an ongoing problem that just because someone looks good at club level doesn't mean they'll look good at test level, and that frequently just seems to be skipped over because players have done something that looks good on TV to us fans. Jones cannot magic players into being good enough, okay he could have looked at maybe Spencer the bench player from Sarries a bit more but it's not like he's ignoring a van der Westhuizen because of Youngs, it's just Youngs probably is the best of the lot, and the best players tend to get picked, that's really sort of the point.

9 is a problem position, experience is very important, arguably the role it maters most, and so we do get more foreign players in the league than is ideal for England and then that's made worse when suddenly Saints or Exeter as we've seen recently have a little queue of potentials not getting game time. So it's nice to see Borthwick doing well with JVP, hope that continues once Youngs is back at the club.

Jones has had Randall in camp recently that's good and it's a shame he picked up a knock and it's a shame Robson has really struggled, maybe JVP gets onto the tour this summer if it goes ahead, that would be good too.

For sure this is an area that is concerning, and sure Eddie hasn't done everything he could, I just think it's manifestly unfair to say he's manifestly refused to do anything about the situation. Yes some of the players he looked at played under other coaches, but is that a thing, that as a new coach you have to only look at new players to avoid criticism? Be reasonable.

How do we know if they are good enough or not - when he won't even start them against Italy. They simply haven't been given a proper chance - even though Youngs has often stunk the place up.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

How does he prepare adequately for Youngs not being there if the players he's looked at simply aren't good enough? I do as it happens think he could have done more in this area, and I certainly didn't like using some of the limited time there was to look at Heinz and Wigglesworth, but clearly he has looked at other players.

There is an ongoing problem that just because someone looks good at club level doesn't mean they'll look good at test level, and that frequently just seems to be skipped over because players have done something that looks good on TV to us fans. Jones cannot magic players into being good enough, okay he could have looked at maybe Spencer the bench player from Sarries a bit more but it's not like he's ignoring a van der Westhuizen because of Youngs, it's just Youngs probably is the best of the lot, and the best players tend to get picked, that's really sort of the point.

9 is a problem position, experience is very important, arguably the role it maters most, and so we do get more foreign players in the league than is ideal for England and then that's made worse when suddenly Saints or Exeter as we've seen recently have a little queue of potentials not getting game time. So it's nice to see Borthwick doing well with JVP, hope that continues once Youngs is back at the club.

Jones has had Randall in camp recently that's good and it's a shame he picked up a knock and it's a shame Robson has really struggled, maybe JVP gets onto the tour this summer if it goes ahead, that would be good too.

For sure this is an area that is concerning, and sure Eddie hasn't done everything he could, I just think it's manifestly unfair to say he's manifestly refused to do anything about the situation. Yes some of the players he looked at played under other coaches, but is that a thing, that as a new coach you have to only look at new players to avoid criticism? Be reasonable.

How do we know if they are good enough or not - when he won't even start them against Italy. They simply haven't been given a proper chance - even though Youngs has often stunk the place up.

We don't know. And I'm not saying they shouldn't get a chance, and I'd even think just playing Italy isn't much more relevant than playing Canada so if you want to really test them they need to play some of the better teams.

What I'm getting at is the idea Jones is an idiot who refuses to look at players when there are obvious alternatives who'd improve the side, and that I think simply isn't the case. For instance I don't like Farrell at 12, I'd pick him at 10 or stick him on the bench, and given I like Ford I'd put Farrell on the bench, but there are still a lot of good things Farrell does at 12, most other players tried there haven't done well, and I can't cite anyone who'd have been so obviously better this 6N that Jones is being unreasonable. All we've really got is Jones making some different choices to ones some other people would make, but all the picks he's had this 6N have been reasonable in advance even if they've not worked out in hindsight.

And I don't think Youngs has often stunk the place out, I think he's often been asked to play tactics that lead him and the team down something of a hole. And that really is something to attach to Jones as being his fault, against which we do finally this 6N seemed to have turned something of a corner. There's still a lot of concern around the tactics because trying to play some better, or certainly faster rugby we've lost a few games, and I'd agree with the idea Jones doesn't really admire/respect English rugby so he could easily go back to a game more heavily dominated with kicking that was securing him a very respectable win percentage.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

There's a fucking world of difference between 20 caps and four minutes. And fuck off with your "teen angst" bullshit; I well remember your claim you'd have dropped the entire England cricket team after the 2013/14 Ashes, so don't start pretending you're some incredible voice of reason.

Smith, Gregan, and Larkham... all world class players who will go down in history as some of the best there's been in their positions. And we're talking Ben Youngs, Elliot Daly, and Billy Vunipola? Do me a favour. His "high bar" apparently doesn't extend to the performances of his own preferred players, even when they're coming out and saying they're playing like shit.

England cricket?

Yes there's a big difference between 20 caps and 4 minutes, but both can prove the wrong path of judgement to take on a player, or indeed the right path. The thought process that infers you're obviously on the right side of such judgment and Jones is in the wrong just comes across as weird, it's probably something of a mix, almost certainly in his favour, and a series of fine margins as it goes.

[JM2K6]

[Paddington Bear]

Youngs does what he does pretty effectively, I just would rather have a 9 who could pass though.

[JM2K6]

Or one that can threaten defences more than once every 5 matches.

[Kawazaki]

Youngs does what he does pretty effectively, I just would rather have a 9 who could pass though.

Yes. It's akin to having a prop who can't push or a winger who can't run.

The only thing that Youngs does 'pretty effectively' is accumulate caps. I'd describe it as world-class in fact.

[Paddington Bear]

Youngs does what he does pretty effectively, I just would rather have a 9 who could pass though.

Yes. It's akin to having a prop who can't push or a winger who can't run.

The only thing that Youngs does 'pretty effectively' is accumulate caps. I'd describe it as world-class in fact.

It's not dissimilar to the various sides who pick hookers who are good around the park but can't throw in or scrummage. He played fine this 6N, but there are so many better options available.

[Kawazaki]

Youngs does what he does pretty effectively, I just would rather have a 9 who could pass though.

Yes. It's akin to having a prop who can't push or a winger who can't run.

The only thing that Youngs does 'pretty effectively' is accumulate caps. I'd describe it as world-class in fact.

It's not dissimilar to the various sides who pick hookers who are good around the park but can't throw in or scrummage. He played fine this 6N, but there are so many better options available.

A hooker who can't throw-in or scrummage wouldn't get close to 100 caps for England. I'd surprised if they reached double-figures.

[JM2K6]

Youngs does what he does pretty effectively, I just would rather have a 9 who could pass though.

Yes. It's akin to having a prop who can't push or a winger who can't run.

The only thing that Youngs does 'pretty effectively' is accumulate caps. I'd describe it as world-class in fact.

It's not dissimilar to the various sides who pick hookers who are good around the park but can't throw in or scrummage. He played fine this 6N, but there are so many better options available.

If we ignore his bad games maybe? What does fine look like for Ben Youngs? Against Ireland, for example, he passed poorly, his kicking was inaccurate, he made a grand total of TWO METRES with his running game, and he missed 40% of his tackles.

[Kawazaki]

Yes. It's akin to having a prop who can't push or a winger who can't run.

The only thing that Youngs does 'pretty effectively' is accumulate caps. I'd describe it as world-class in fact.

It's not dissimilar to the various sides who pick hookers who are good around the park but can't throw in or scrummage. He played fine this 6N, but there are so many better options available.

If we ignore his bad games maybe? What does fine look like for Ben Youngs? Against Ireland, for example, he passed poorly, his kicking was inaccurate, he made a grand total of TWO METRES with his running game, and he missed 40% of his tackles.

On the Youngs index, he wasn't that bad against Ireland.

[Paddington Bear]

Yes. It's akin to having a prop who can't push or a winger who can't run.

The only thing that Youngs does 'pretty effectively' is accumulate caps. I'd describe it as world-class in fact.

It's not dissimilar to the various sides who pick hookers who are good around the park but can't throw in or scrummage. He played fine this 6N, but there are so many better options available.

If we ignore his bad games maybe? What does fine look like for Ben Youngs? Against Ireland, for example, he passed poorly, his kicking was inaccurate, he made a grand total of TWO METRES with his running game, and he missed 40% of his tackles.

Fine by his low standards is what I meant.

[JM2K6]

It's not dissimilar to the various sides who pick hookers who are good around the park but can't throw in or scrummage. He played fine this 6N, but there are so many better options available.

If we ignore his bad games maybe? What does fine look like for Ben Youngs? Against Ireland, for example, he passed poorly, his kicking was inaccurate, he made a grand total of TWO METRES with his running game, and he missed 40% of his tackles.

Fine by his low standards is what I meant.

OK, but that's the point I'm making. People say he's playing fine when actually he's a bit shit, just because it's not as bad as he can be!

[Rhubarb & Custard]

The problem against Ireland was the penalties and the scrum, the breakdown and collision play in midfield and then the emotion of the game. And it's going to be a tough sell that that's down to the 9, if only because it would be arrant nonsense, other than you would like your supposed leaders to be able to turn around some of the emotion, which is possible if they make really good decisions and are really accurate, and we didn't get that from Youngs, or Ford, or Farrell. So the reasonable criticism is they weren't outstanding in the face of adversity, that they didn't eke out a 5% chance of taking a win where one didn't look possible. It is a standard, but it's a harsh one.

Especially for a lad who just outplayed Dupont

[JM2K6]

There you go again - desperately defending a deeply flawed, mediocre performance and pretending that we were demanding he be outstanding. No-one was saying we were shit because of Youngs. Just that Youngs was a bit shit. Like he frequently is.

He fucked up with literally the first thing he did in the game ffs

[Kawazaki]

The problem against Ireland was the penalties and the scrum, the breakdown and collision play in midfield and then the emotion of the game. And it's going to be a tough sell that that's down to the 9, if only because it would be arrant nonsense, other than you would like your supposed leaders to be able to turn around some of the emotion, which is possible if they make really good decisions and are really accurate, and we didn't get that from Youngs, or Ford, or Farrell. So the reasonable criticism is they weren't outstanding in the face of adversity, that they didn't eke out a 5% chance of taking a win where one didn't look possible. It is a standard, but it's a harsh one.

Especially for a lad who just outplayed Dupont

Was Dupont playing for Ireland?

I'll just repeat why a dithering 9 with a slow short inaccurate pass makes everyone else much worse...

Any England flyhalf receiving a Youngs pass is always second-guessing where it will go - high, low, behind etc, and it is not a long pass either. The Youngs pass then sets in motion a form of rugby chaos theory as small (or large) adjustments made by the 10 get slightly magnified as the ball moves further along to the 12 and then to the 13-channel and so on. It is no surprise to me that England find it so difficult to get the ball to the edge of the defence never mind beyond it without having to kick the ball.

[JM2K6]

Youngs gave a good account of himself vs Dupont. His usual thing of having one decent game in 5. Made more metres, but Dupont scored a try, made more breaks, beat more defenders, offloaded more, made more tackles, had a better tackling percentage, and didn't cough up the 3 turnovers that Youngs did. Which is all good going given France had less of the ball and territory.

[Paddington Bear]

Something very pleasant about rolling straight from work into a prem game

[JM2K6]

Well reminded, thank you!

edit: "Unfortunately rights restrictions mean that this programme is not currently available to watch on your device" what the fuck Virgin

[JM2K6]

Right, got it on TV. Just in time to see Glaws somehow bomb a 5-on-2 by refusing to draw any defenders. Maul does it anyway.

[JM2K6]

Josh Hodge finally does something good while I'm watching. Scores a superb long range solo try. Dismissed LRZ with a nice fend, too.

[sockwithaticket]

Twelvetrees really didn't help LRZ on that tackle, basically barged him out the way.

Serious pace from Hodge.

[SaintK]

Bloody hell missed 2 tries already!!

[sockwithaticket]

Wouldn't call that significantly dropping tbh.

[sockwithaticket]

Very open tit for tat game so far. Nice to watch not having a dog in the fight.

[JM2K6]

Yeah 36 was lucky that Pearce is high on his own supply of 'quick quick quick' at the moment.

Weird game. Glaws look pretty bad yet somehow it's only 14-15. I know it's only Exeter 2nds...

There's just so many past-it / forever overrated players in this Gloucester side. Balmain. Ludlow. Rapava-Ruskin. Heinz. Twelvetrees. Ackerman.

[sockwithaticket]

Starting to feel a momentum swing after Exeter weathered that much pressure.

[JM2K6]

Heinz is slower than tectonic plate movement.

[sockwithaticket]

Christ, some of these kids look about 12, I taught 15 year olds who appeared older.

[sockwithaticket]

That was a long set to not really go anywhere after the intial LRZ break.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Several Gloucs players are having problems passing the ball anywhere near a teammate.

[sockwithaticket]

A for effort there for Hidalgo-Clyne. Young Glaws fly half took too long to clear.

[JM2K6]

Quite enjoyed the commentators talking up how well Exeter integrate their squad players and how well they can perform in this system that gives them every opportunity to just slot in, as Exeter get smashed by the worst team in the league