Official Lions selection, moaning and bitching thread

[Margin__Walker]

Rings a bell now. Fair enough

[New guy]

In terms of the English likability scale, with 10 being Mako Vunipola and 1 being Mike Brown I'd say Itoje is a 5.

[Yeeb]

In terms of the English likability scale, with 10 being Mako Vunipola and 1 being Mike Brown I'd say Itoje is a 5.

For past captains , my ratings on this BrownVuni scale would be:

Farrell - 6
Hartley - 6
Robshaw - 7
Corry - 8
Wilkinson 10
Johnson 6
Dawson 2
Dallaglio 7
Carling 3

[New guy]

In terms of the English likability scale, with 10 being Mako Vunipola and 1 being Mike Brown I'd say Itoje is a 5.

For past captains , my ratings on this BrownVuni scale would be:

Farrell - 6
Hartley - 6
Robshaw - 7
Corry - 8
Wilkinson 10
Johnson 6
Dawson 2
Dallaglio 7
Carling 3

Seems fair. I'd have Farrell much lower though and Johnson higher, like an 8. It was impossible not to respect his no nonsense approach.

[dpedin]

Dont disagee with the 'likability' ratings but it is also about respect - folk may not like someone but do they respect them? Itoje fails both tests in my eyes. He does however rate highly on the Twat Scale.

[Hugo]

In terms of the English likability scale, with 10 being Mako Vunipola and 1 being Mike Brown I'd say Itoje is a 5.

For past captains , my ratings on this BrownVuni scale would be:

Farrell - 6
Hartley - 6
Robshaw - 7
Corry - 8
Wilkinson 10
Johnson 6
Dawson 2
Dallaglio 7
Carling 3

Seems fair. I'd have Farrell much lower though and Johnson higher, like an 8. It was impossible not to respect his no nonsense approach

Yeah, you can tell that Johnson was someone who commanded respect from everyone in the game. His teammates would walk through walls for him.

As for Carling, I know he came across as the prototypical, insufferably smug, posh Englishman but I can't think of any incident in particular where he stood out as unlikeable.

[frodder]

Just get Captain Sam out of retirement and be done with it

[clydecloggie]

The "Itoje, because he's black and it's a tour to SA" argument is very compelling. It'll be him. He's also certain to start the Tests, at this point in time.

[Yeeb]

The "Itoje, because he's black and it's a tour to SA" argument is very compelling. It'll be him. He's also certain to start the Tests, at this point in time.

Black Locks Matter !

[Yeeb]

In terms of the English likability scale, with 10 being Mako Vunipola and 1 being Mike Brown I'd say Itoje is a 5.

For past captains , my ratings on this BrownVuni scale would be:

Farrell - 6
Hartley - 6
Robshaw - 7
Corry - 8
Wilkinson 10
Johnson 6
Dawson 2
Dallaglio 7
Carling 3

Seems fair. I'd have Farrell much lower though and Johnson higher, like an 8. It was impossible not to respect his no nonsense approach.

Respect and liking someone, two different things. Johnson had enough edge to command respect, I don’t think Itoje is there yet, and doesn’t have the likeability thing either.

Corry seems to have been liked, but I doubt he was especially respected as post 97 tour wasn’t really a standout international player. Ditto Robshaw.

I gave Farrell some leeway as being ultra northern plus I liked the smirk far more than his haranguing (saracens trait perhaps ). Most northerners can’t help being dour, rude and unlikeable their bearing and manner.

[eldanielfire]

Wainwright??? Webb??? C’mon

All day.

Webb is a genuine pick if on form though. There's a dearth of quality scrum halves in the NH (excluding France).

Wales have at least 3 quality scrum halfs in Webb, Davies and Williams/

[eldanielfire]

The "Itoje, because he's black and it's a tour to SA" argument is very compelling. It'll be him. He's also certain to start the Tests, at this point in time.

I'd say that Maro Itoje is the outstanding Northern Hemisphere lock in terms of quality and consistency, who brings physicality, breakdown excellence and is an outstanding lineout operator is the more compelling argument.

[eldanielfire]

Daly over May ? Wtf?

Indeed, thats a mad call, May brilliant under the high ball and has more gas than Daly.

Horrendously over rated player. Has gas and has scored a coupe of good trys from nothing but poor basic skills (decent under a high ball to be fair), can’t pass, dodgy defence. Not on a wind up, he would be well down my list for a Lions place, would maybe make the wider squad

But Daly is easily a worse defender than May. He's been exposed a few times these past 2 years.

[eldanielfire]

George will have a year of championship behind him, surely wouldn't be up to the task? As I have said numerous times on the previous bored, I just don't get Farrell: I don't think he's in the top 3 10's in the UK and Ireland, not even England's best 10, in my opinion.


As for the series, SA to smash the Lions 3-0, I think.

I've had many rants on Farrell's quality many times. The conclusion I come to is he is a coaches dream, he'll run the game plan as coaches want forever and will march the team into it by his leadership. Coaches today are obsessed with control and fewer are as control freekery as Eddie Jones.

It is also the reason why with Farrell at 10, England almost never win by coming from behind. If they are behind in the 2nd half Farrell has no ability to create anything if the game plan isn't working, Jones compensates by trying to get some scores in early on and having a pack that is so physical it sucks the will out of opponents trying to gain ground and so England capitalise on mistakes. Hence why it's not really worked against South Africa who have the most physical set of forwards around.

[KingBlairhorn]

Itoje for captain is such an odd proposition and it's difficult to understand why this might happen (and I think it really might). He has never captained his country before and will come into the tour off the back of a season in the Championship. Why is he any different to, say, James Ryan. Ryan is equally well decorated having also won the Heineken Cup, 2 Six Nations (including a Grand Slam) and 2 league championships. He also captained his country at U20 level in a Junior World Cup final, although the difference being he lost to Itoje's England.

I don't think Ryan should be anywhere near the Lions captaincy, and I don't think Itoje should be either.

[ASMO]

Itoje for captain is such an odd proposition and it's difficult to understand why this might happen (and I think it really might). He has never captained his country before and will come into the tour off the back of a season in the Championship. Why is he any different to, say, James Ryan. Ryan is equally well decorated having also won the Heineken Cup, 2 Six Nations (including a Grand Slam) and 2 league championships. He also captained his country at U20 level in a Junior World Cup final, although the difference being he lost to Itoje's England.

I don't think Ryan should be anywhere near the Lions captaincy, and I don't think Itoje should be either.

Ahem

In 2014, Maro captained England U20 to victory at the Junior World Championship final.

[eldanielfire]

Itoje for captain is such an odd proposition and it's difficult to understand why this might happen (and I think it really might). He has never captained his country before and will come into the tour off the back of a season in the Championship. Why is he any different to, say, James Ryan. Ryan is equally well decorated having also won the Heineken Cup, 2 Six Nations (including a Grand Slam) and 2 league championships. He also captained his country at U20 level in a Junior World Cup final, although the difference being he lost to Itoje's England.

I don't think Ryan should be anywhere near the Lions captaincy, and I don't think Itoje should be either.

Itoje captained the England U20 to world cup victory.

Also Martin Johnson was made captain of the Lions without being captain of his country before.

[Yeeb]

Itoje for captain is such an odd proposition and it's difficult to understand why this might happen (and I think it really might). He has never captained his country before and will come into the tour off the back of a season in the Championship. Why is he any different to, say, James Ryan. Ryan is equally well decorated having also won the Heineken Cup, 2 Six Nations (including a Grand Slam) and 2 league championships. He also captained his country at U20 level in a Junior World Cup final, although the difference being he lost to Itoje's England.

I don't think Ryan should be anywhere near the Lions captaincy, and I don't think Itoje should be either.

Itoje captained the England U20 to world cup victory.

Also Martin Johnson was made captain of the Lions without being captain of his country before.

He was already regular tigers captain though think , not as a stand in or u20 type. Still relevant , high level captaincy experience.

[Margin__Walker]

Assuming his form doesn't fall off a cliff and he merits a place on tour I think he'll go AWJ

He's shown before he's not too concerned about a captain always having to start a test match, so would be more of a tour captain role. May make the tests, may not. He'd have a leadership group and if AWJ wasn't in the starting 15, someone else would step up.

[KingBlairhorn]

Itoje for captain is such an odd proposition and it's difficult to understand why this might happen (and I think it really might). He has never captained his country before and will come into the tour off the back of a season in the Championship. Why is he any different to, say, James Ryan. Ryan is equally well decorated having also won the Heineken Cup, 2 Six Nations (including a Grand Slam) and 2 league championships. He also captained his country at U20 level in a Junior World Cup final, although the difference being he lost to Itoje's England.

I don't think Ryan should be anywhere near the Lions captaincy, and I don't think Itoje should be either.

Ahem

In 2014, Maro captained England U20 to victory at the Junior World Championship final.

Haha, wild - are you actually arguing that captaining England U20 is the same as captaining England? I mean clearly the experience counts for something, and it's definitely a positive for his credentials, but it is definitely not the same thing. I captained my country at U15 - I presume I would also have exactly the skills required to captain the Lions too?

Clearly I knew he had captained England at U20, it's literally in the post where I say Ryan has also captained his country at U20 level (although admittedly perhaps not clear). Indeed he played in the same Junior WC final where Itoje was the other captain. To make my post clearer, I don't think either has sufficient captaincy experience having never captained a test level team.

[And 1 guest]

So it's Hogg for skipper then. Next question?

[New guy]

So it's Hogg for skipper then. Next question?

The only thing Hoggs going to be leading is the charge to the buffet table at breakfast.

[Ali Cadoo]

More importantly, who is going to be tour thumbmaster general? Someone sneaky... a scrum half, no doubt.

[Munch]

The question is, which kind of team is Gatland going to pick? Will he pick the biggest lads and try to "bosh it up the middle" or will he try to run around the 'Boks?

I think only a foold would try and beat the 'Boks at their own game but will he simply be constrained by the players who are on form (or lack of)?

[OomStruisbaai]

How many Saffers in the Lions team except Duhan van der Merwe & CJ Stander.

[Uncle fester]

Doubt either of them will make it.

[Butterfingers]

Doubt either of them will make it.

Not sure. Gatland will bloody love VDM big bulging muscles.

[Biffer]

The question is, which kind of team is Gatland going to pick? Will he pick the biggest lads and try to "bosh it up the middle" or will he try to run around the 'Boks?

I think only a foold would try and beat the 'Boks at their own game but will he simply be constrained by the players who are on form (or lack of)?

I think he's more likely to be constrained by his one dimensional approach and lack of Shaun Edwards.

[Kawazaki]

Itoje for captain is such an odd proposition and it's difficult to understand why this might happen (and I think it really might). He has never captained his country before and will come into the tour off the back of a season in the Championship. Why is he any different to, say, James Ryan. Ryan is equally well decorated having also won the Heineken Cup, 2 Six Nations (including a Grand Slam) and 2 league championships. He also captained his country at U20 level in a Junior World Cup final, although the difference being he lost to Itoje's England.

I don't think Ryan should be anywhere near the Lions captaincy, and I don't think Itoje should be either.

Ahem

In 2014, Maro captained England U20 to victory at the Junior World Championship final.

Haha, wild - are you actually arguing that captaining England U20 is the same as captaining England? I mean clearly the experience counts for something, and it's definitely a positive for his credentials, but it is definitely not the same thing. I captained my country at U15 - I presume I would also have exactly the skills required to captain the Lions too?

Clearly I knew he had captained England at U20, it's literally in the post where I say Ryan has also captained his country at U20 level (although admittedly perhaps not clear). Indeed he played in the same Junior WC final where Itoje was the other captain. To make my post clearer, I don't think either has sufficient captaincy experience having never captained a test level team.

I love it when chancers get called out and then squirm with a double-down reply.

[Uncle fester]

Doubt either of them will make it.

Not sure. Gatland will bloody love VDM big bulging muscles.

Bad missed tackle last night.

[Kawazaki]

Gatland should steer clear of the vast majority of this Eddie Jones England squad, they've been in an utterly useless coaching environment for months. In short, England are not close to the required standard.

The only England players that I think merit consideration for the Lions squad are (in no particular order);

Itoje
Curry
Underhill
Watson
Marler
S. Simmonds

Long shots;

Dombrandt
Sinckler
Randall
Malins
George
LC-D
Ford

[JM2K6]

Think LCD has a strong case, whereas Sam Simmonds is a long shot as the bolter. Don't think they'll take Marler with his issues with long trips and being in a bubble. Sinckler more in the first group, too.

[Kawazaki]

Think LCD has a strong case, whereas Sam Simmonds is a long shot as the bolter. Don't think they'll take Marler with his issues with long trips and being in a bubble. Sinckler more in the first group, too.

Simmonds is currently the best player in the premiership and he'd still hold that accolade if all the test players were playing. That's difficult to ignore. Sinckler is still being let down by his temperament imho, the Saffas would be all over him from the off.

Fair point regards Marler, I'd forgotten about some of his issues. A pity. At hooker, Ken Owens is miles out in front as first choice, LCD might make it as the third hooker.

[JM2K6]

Think LCD has a strong case, whereas Sam Simmonds is a long shot as the bolter. Don't think they'll take Marler with his issues with long trips and being in a bubble. Sinckler more in the first group, too.

Simmonds is currently the best player in the premiership and he'd still hold that accolade if all the test players were playing. That's difficult to ignore. Sinckler is still being let down by his temperament imho, the Saffas would be all over him from the off.

Fair point regards Marler, I'd forgotten about some of his issues. A pity. At hooker, Ken Owens is miles out in front as first choice, LCD might make it as the third hooker.

Sinckler's temperament didn't stop him being a standout last time (and it was an issue at times!) and I think he has improved in both his play and his attitude since then. No genuine issues since before the world cup. I think he and Furlong will be the first two tightheads on the list.

Simmonds is great, Premiership and European player of the year (the latter will mean more) but he'd definitely still be in the "bolter" camp as he's not playing international rugby and has no real international pedigree. Gatland has never struck me as the type to roll the dice on a non-Welsh player, so I'd be surprised if he travels, but he is the obvious choice if Gatland is willing to consider a bolter.

[Biffer]

Think LCD has a strong case, whereas Sam Simmonds is a long shot as the bolter. Don't think they'll take Marler with his issues with long trips and being in a bubble. Sinckler more in the first group, too.

Simmonds is currently the best player in the premiership and he'd still hold that accolade if all the test players were playing. That's difficult to ignore. Sinckler is still being let down by his temperament imho, the Saffas would be all over him from the off.

Fair point regards Marler, I'd forgotten about some of his issues. A pity. At hooker, Ken Owens is miles out in front as first choice, LCD might make it as the third hooker.

Sinckler's temperament didn't stop him being a standout last time (and it was an issue at times!) and I think he has improved in both his play and his attitude since then. No genuine issues since before the world cup. I think he and Furlong will be the first two tightheads on the list.

Simmonds is great, Premiership and European player of the year (the latter will mean more) but he'd definitely still be in the "bolter" camp as he's not playing international rugby and has no real international pedigree. Gatland has never struck me as the type to roll the dice on a non-Welsh player, so I'd be surprised if he travels, but he is the obvious choice if Gatland is willing to consider a bolter.

I think there’s a difference in the wind up merchants in New Zealand and South Africa.

[Slick]

Doubt either of them will make it.

Not sure. Gatland will bloody love VDM big bulging muscles.

Bad missed tackle last night.

Kind of made up by beating more players in this tournament than anyone else in the history of the 6N you might think?

Re Ken Owens, there are 4 Scottish hookers who would give him a run for his money, don’t think he’s miles out in front at all

[Slick]

Think LCD has a strong case, whereas Sam Simmonds is a long shot as the bolter. Don't think they'll take Marler with his issues with long trips and being in a bubble. Sinckler more in the first group, too.

Simmonds is currently the best player in the premiership and he'd still hold that accolade if all the test players were playing. That's difficult to ignore. Sinckler is still being let down by his temperament imho, the Saffas would be all over him from the off.

Fair point regards Marler, I'd forgotten about some of his issues. A pity. At hooker, Ken Owens is miles out in front as first choice, LCD might make it as the third hooker.

Sinckler's temperament didn't stop him being a standout last time (and it was an issue at times!) and I think he has improved in both his play and his attitude since then. No genuine issues since before the world cup. I think he and Furlong will be the first two tightheads on the list.

Simmonds is great, Premiership and European player of the year (the latter will mean more) but he'd definitely still be in the "bolter" camp as he's not playing international rugby and has no real international pedigree. Gatland has never struck me as the type to roll the dice on a non-Welsh player, so I'd be surprised if he travels, but he is the obvious choice if Gatland is willing to consider a bolter.

There is quite a tradition of bolters on Lions tours though so I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Garland took Simmonds

[JM2K6]

Which bolters has Gatland taken before? Aside from giving his welsh squad members some experience, I mean.

[Slick]

That’s a fair point

[Yr Alban]

Doubt either of them will make it.

Not sure. Gatland will bloody love VDM big bulging muscles.

Bad missed tackle last night.

Duhan has missed 3 tackles this 6N. LRZ, who people seem to have installed as a starter, has missed 9, and scored fewer tries too.

I can’t be bothered going through every winger, but James Lowe and Keith Earls have missed 7 each, Josh Adams 6, Jonny May 5 and Elliot Daly 4. Duhan’s completion rate actually isn’t bad for a winger.

EDIT: It’s very good, in fact.

Daly: 5 made, 4 missed (55%)
Lowe: 10 made, 7 missed (58%)
Adams: 10 made, 6 missed (63%)
Earls: 22 made, 7 missed (76%)
LRZ: 28 made, 9 missed (76%)
Van der Merwe: 13 made, 3 missed (81%)
May: 25 made, 5 missed (83%)