NPR

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:36 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:40 am

Saint wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:00 am

Yeah - the new owner had to spend something like $100million just to bring it up to that standard. I think it's a long way off

I wonder how many years it would take to pay back $100 million in SA ?

It would be nice to have another GP in the SH, & it could be swapped for one of the European legs, because it's in the right TZ; but if it doesn't wash it's face in local attendance; there's no point even talking about it; & I suspect it wouldn't.

Rabid corruption throughout the continent probably doesn't help either.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:36 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:40 am

Saint wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:00 am

Yeah - the new owner had to spend something like $100million just to bring it up to that standard. I think it's a long way off

I wonder how many years it would take to pay back $100 million in SA ?

It would be nice to have another GP in the SH, & it could be swapped for one of the European legs, because it's in the right TZ; but if it doesn't wash it's face in local attendance; there's no point even talking about it; & I suspect it wouldn't.

Rabid corruption throughout the continent probably doesn't help either.

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:52 pm So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:50 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:36 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:40 am

I wonder how many years it would take to pay back $100 million in SA ?

It would be nice to have another GP in the SH, & it could be swapped for one of the European legs, because it's in the right TZ; but if it doesn't wash it's face in local attendance; there's no point even talking about it; & I suspect it wouldn't.

Rabid corruption throughout the continent probably doesn't help either.

If rabid corruption was an impediment to getting a GP; the calendar would extend to about 12 races.......

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:52 pm So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

Saint wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:35 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:52 pm So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

I like it, but the FIA would need to significantly up the budget per race - tge FIA are offering $75k per team, but a single front wing costs $200k. For the midfield teams in particular the risk/reward doesn't stack up as they'll be expecting to.lose at least 1 front wing each weekend in a sprint format

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:40 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:35 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:52 pm So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

I like it, but the FIA would need to significantly up the budget per race - tge FIA are offering $75k per team, but a single front wing costs $200k. For the midfield teams in particular the risk/reward doesn't stack up as they'll be expecting to.lose at least 1 front wing each weekend in a sprint format

So the problem isn’t that a front wing costs 200 fucking thousand dollars????

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:56 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:40 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:35 pm

I like it, but the FIA would need to significantly up the budget per race - tge FIA are offering $75k per team, but a single front wing costs $200k. For the midfield teams in particular the risk/reward doesn't stack up as they'll be expecting to.lose at least 1 front wing each weekend in a sprint format

So the problem isn’t that a front wing costs 200 fucking thousand dollars????

$500 worth of material, $5,000 worth of a professionals time, & $5,000,000 worth of development *

* Figures pulled from my arse.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:11 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:52 pm So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

Well for starters, F1 has just introduced a budget cost cap that brings all teams, including the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull, down to an annual spend less than what Haas spent last year.

How are they supposed to afford to pay to sprint race as well as all the testing, practice, qualifying and racing they have to do across 22 race weekends using just three engines that have to last the entire season?

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:34 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:11 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:52 pm So we may get relatively short sprint races (with Championship points) to fix the grid. I would be up for trying that though some naysayers are speculating drivers would be too conservative to avoid damage before the main event.

I think it could work really well ; Qualifying on Friday, Sprint Race Saturday and GP Sunday. What’s not to like?

Well for starters, F1 has just introduced a budget cost cap that brings all teams, including the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull, down to an annual spend less than what Haas spent last year.

How are they supposed to afford to pay to sprint race as well as all the testing, practice, qualifying and racing they have to do across 22 race weekends using just three engines that have to last the entire season?

Well F1 need to get their ass into gear to reduce costs as they have been promising to do for years. This proposal is about making the whole weekend more entertaining for the punters in a way that is consistent with the fundamentals of the sport. Let’s not assume that’s too hard.

Saint wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:36 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:34 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:11 pm



Well for starters, F1 has just introduced a budget cost cap that brings all teams, including the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull, down to an annual spend less than what Haas spent last year.

How are they supposed to afford to pay to sprint race as well as all the testing, practice, qualifying and racing they have to do across 22 race weekends using just three engines that have to last the entire season?

Well F1 need to get their ass into gear to reduce costs as they have been promising to do for years. This proposal is about making the whole weekend more entertaining for the punters in a way that is consistent with the fundamentals of the sport. Let’s not assume that’s too hard.

And that's fine - but has to be done in conjunction with other rules changes.

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:47 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:36 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:34 pm

Well F1 need to get their ass into gear to reduce costs as they have been promising to do for years. This proposal is about making the whole weekend more entertaining for the punters in a way that is consistent with the fundamentals of the sport. Let’s not assume that’s too hard.

And that's fine - but has to be done in conjunction with other rules changes.

Agreed. It’s the same people who control all the rules so I can’t imagine it’s impossible.

Saint wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:53 pm

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:47 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:36 pm


And that's fine - but has to be done in conjunction with other rules changes.

Agreed. It’s the same people who control all the rules so I can’t imagine it’s impossible.

The other rule changes are controlled by different committees- and many of them require team consent. The fia can impose this change but can't deal with theother aspects.

This is going nowhere unless the teams agree

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:02 am Zero chance on a common aero package. For one thing, each engine has different cooling requirements, necessitating different cooling ductwork. For another, the customer teams see aero as their primary way to differentiate their performance vs other teams. And finally, the two Red Bull outfits are actively proposing to freeze engine dev to spend more money on aero.

Common electronics, brakes, etc should be achievable but it's going to be really limited

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:10 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:02 am Zero chance on a common aero package. For one thing, each engine has different cooling requirements, necessitating different cooling ductwork. For another, the customer teams see aero as their primary way to differentiate their performance vs other teams. And finally, the two Red Bull outfits are actively proposing to freeze engine dev to spend more money on aero.

Common electronics, brakes, etc should be achievable but it's going to be really limited

Yeah, that's what I figured. The different teams all differentiate on different parts of the package; so there's sod all chance of them ever agreeing on commonality except in the few areas where the don't see themselves losing an advantage.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:44 pm Alonso hit by a car while out cycling in Switzerland. Sounds like he's okay, broken jaw & probably some other bits & bobs; but not good timing.

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:53 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:10 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:02 am Zero chance on a common aero package. For one thing, each engine has different cooling requirements, necessitating different cooling ductwork. For another, the customer teams see aero as their primary way to differentiate their performance vs other teams. And finally, the two Red Bull outfits are actively proposing to freeze engine dev to spend more money on aero.

Common electronics, brakes, etc should be achievable but it's going to be really limited

Yeah, that's what I figured. The different teams all differentiate on different parts of the package; so there's sod all chance of them ever agreeing on commonality except in the few areas where the don't see themselves losing an advantage.

Engine development freeze for 2022-25 agreed to enable Red Bull to take over the Honda F1 engineering operation. So the only dev scope will be aero for 3 years

A new engine formula will be proposed for 2025, a year ahead of schedule. The initial requirements for it though sound like a complete unicorn:

- relevant to manufacturers (especially new manufacturers)
- environmentally produced fuel
- low cost
- good sound profile
- environmentally and socially sustainable

Sprint races still under consideration

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:49 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:53 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:10 pm

Yeah, that's what I figured. The different teams all differentiate on different parts of the package; so there's sod all chance of them ever agreeing on commonality except in the few areas where the don't see themselves losing an advantage.

Engine development freeze for 2022-25 agreed to enable Red Bull to take over the Honda F1 engineering operation. So the only dev scope will be aero for 3 years

A new engine formula will be proposed for 2025, a year ahead of schedule. The initial requirements for it though sound like a complete unicorn:

- relevant to manufacturers (especially new manufacturers)
- environmentally produced fuel
- low cost
- good sound profile
- environmentally and socially sustainable

Sprint races still under consideration

Screaming 3.8l V10s that run on bioethanol surely meets everyone's requirements?

Power
Noise
Green

What's not to like?

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:00 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:49 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:53 pm

Engine development freeze for 2022-25 agreed to enable Red Bull to take over the Honda F1 engineering operation. So the only dev scope will be aero for 3 years

A new engine formula will be proposed for 2025, a year ahead of schedule. The initial requirements for it though sound like a complete unicorn:

- relevant to manufacturers (especially new manufacturers)
- environmentally produced fuel
- low cost
- good sound profile
- environmentally and socially sustainable

Sprint races still under consideration

Screaming 3.8l V10s that run on bioethanol surely meets everyone's requirements?

Power
Noise
Green

What's not to like?

Irrelevant to engine manufacturing. By 2025 it's going to be all about silent electric

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:03 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:00 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:49 pm


Screaming 3.8l V10s that run on bioethanol surely meets everyone's requirements?

Power
Noise
Green

What's not to like?

Irrelevant to engine manufacturing. By 2025 it's going to be all about silent electric

I wouldn't be so sure. There are synthetic fuels being produced now that are already carbon neutral. They actively remove CO² from the air as part of the refinery process. It's very clever.

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:20 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:03 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:00 pm

Irrelevant to engine manufacturing. By 2025 it's going to be all about silent electric

I wouldn't be so sure. There are synthetic fuels being produced now that are already carbon neutral. They actively remove CO² from the air as part of the refinery process. It's very clever.

At this point it's going to take a major change in global government policy to change things. Most manufacturers are currently planning to cease production of combustion engines inside the next 10 years (and realistically sooner than that) If you want to bring new manufacturers in, it's hard to see how a bioethanol engine formula is going to do that. Realistically, a merger of Formula E and F1 is on the cards, moving away from those ridiculous city circuits

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:20 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:03 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:00 pm

Irrelevant to engine manufacturing. By 2025 it's going to be all about silent electric

I wouldn't be so sure. There are synthetic fuels being produced now that are already carbon neutral. They actively remove CO² from the air as part of the refinery process. It's very clever.

At this point it's going to take a major change in global government policy to change things. Most manufacturers are currently planning to cease production of combustion engines inside the next 10 years (and realistically sooner than that) If you want to bring new manufacturers in, it's hard to see how a bioethanol engine formula is going to do that. Realistically, a merger of Formula E and F1 is on the cards, moving away from those ridiculous city circuits

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:13 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:20 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:03 pm


I wouldn't be so sure. There are synthetic fuels being produced now that are already carbon neutral. They actively remove CO² from the air as part of the refinery process. It's very clever.

At this point it's going to take a major change in global government policy to change things. Most manufacturers are currently planning to cease production of combustion engines inside the next 10 years (and realistically sooner than that) If you want to bring new manufacturers in, it's hard to see how a bioethanol engine formula is going to do that. Realistically, a merger of Formula E and F1 is on the cards, moving away from those ridiculous city circuits

Possibly, but that assumes that the big automotive giants are going to stay in F1. That's far from certain at the moment and even if it is, does their direction of travel reconcile with what F1 historically really is? There's a reluctant expectation that F1 will become fully electric one day but there's also a growing feeling within the sport that going down that route will ultimately be the end of F1. F1 is really about combustion engines, either normally aspirated or forced induction, with plenty of noise. Electric cars simply can't recreate what an ICE can do. If F1 can use V10s or V8s that are carbon-neutral or even provide an environmental surplus, for a fraction of the cost of the hybrids and with the bonus that they aren't wedded to the commercial whims of the automotive giants then I can definitely see Liberty/F1 and the FIA going in that direction instead. Certainly if they don't do it then entrepreneurs like Stroll and Wolff will in my opinion.

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:36 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:13 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:20 pm


At this point it's going to take a major change in global government policy to change things. Most manufacturers are currently planning to cease production of combustion engines inside the next 10 years (and realistically sooner than that) If you want to bring new manufacturers in, it's hard to see how a bioethanol engine formula is going to do that. Realistically, a merger of Formula E and F1 is on the cards, moving away from those ridiculous city circuits

Possibly, but that assumes that the big automotive giants are going to stay in F1. That's far from certain at the moment and even if it is, does their direction of travel reconcile with what F1 historically really is? There's a reluctant expectation that F1 will become fully electric one day but there's also a growing feeling within the sport that going down that route will ultimately be the end of F1. F1 is really about combustion engines, either normally aspirated or forced induction, with plenty of noise. Electric cars simply can't recreate what an ICE can do. If F1 can use V10s or V8s that are carbon-neutral or even provide an environmental surplus, for a fraction of the cost of the hybrids and with the bonus that they aren't wedded to the commercial whims of the automotive giants then I can definitely see Liberty/F1 and the FIA going in that direction instead. Certainly if they don't do it then entrepreneurs like Stroll and Wolff will in my opinion.

Well, Stroll will go with whatever direction makes sense for Aston Martin. If he thinks that having a rep with a combustion engine makes AM more relevant commercially then he might take gat route - but realistically AM are moving towards EV,even if that's been delayed in the short term

Wolff is a one third owner of the team. But the engine is owned by AMG. If they want an EV engine they'll get it,and Wolff I more interested in racing than with what he is racing with. Renault would be happy wit an EV formula, and EV could tempt VW, BMW, Honda, etc back in

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:36 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:13 pm



Possibly, but that assumes that the big automotive giants are going to stay in F1. That's far from certain at the moment and even if it is, does their direction of travel reconcile with what F1 historically really is? There's a reluctant expectation that F1 will become fully electric one day but there's also a growing feeling within the sport that going down that route will ultimately be the end of F1. F1 is really about combustion engines, either normally aspirated or forced induction, with plenty of noise. Electric cars simply can't recreate what an ICE can do. If F1 can use V10s or V8s that are carbon-neutral or even provide an environmental surplus, for a fraction of the cost of the hybrids and with the bonus that they aren't wedded to the commercial whims of the automotive giants then I can definitely see Liberty/F1 and the FIA going in that direction instead. Certainly if they don't do it then entrepreneurs like Stroll and Wolff will in my opinion.

Well, Stroll will go with whatever direction makes sense for Aston Martin. If he thinks that having a rep with a combustion engine makes AM more relevant commercially then he might take gat route - but realistically AM are moving towards EV,even if that's been delayed in the short term

Wolff is a one third owner of the team. But the engine is owned by AMG. If they want an EV engine they'll get it,and Wolff I more interested in racing than with what he is racing with. Renault would be happy wit an EV formula, and EV could tempt VW, BMW, Honda, etc back in

I'm sure EV will attract the white box automotive corporates but that isn't what I said. And that isn't really what F1 is either.

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:57 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:36 pm

Well, Stroll will go with whatever direction makes sense for Aston Martin. If he thinks that having a rep with a combustion engine makes AM more relevant commercially then he might take gat route - but realistically AM are moving towards EV,even if that's been delayed in the short term

Wolff is a one third owner of the team. But the engine is owned by AMG. If they want an EV engine they'll get it,and Wolff I more interested in racing than with what he is racing with. Renault would be happy wit an EV formula, and EV could tempt VW, BMW, Honda, etc back in

I'm sure EV will attract the white box automotive corporates but that isn't what I said. And that isn't really what F1 is either.

Without the engine there is no F1. What F1 is lacking is a wide variety of engines - customer teams don't have enough competitive choice for them to really be effective, or to support the number of teams that F1 really needs. More engine ess,more affordability is what they need, but as I said, it's a unicorn. Something will have to give, and I think you'de going to see the end of loud engines, combustion etc. That's still within the ethos of F1 historically, but it doesn't appeal to fans who grew up in a certain era and thought that's always now it will be.

Colin Chapman would have been all over the possibilities of an EV engine

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:57 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 pm

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:36 pm

Well, Stroll will go with whatever direction makes sense for Aston Martin. If he thinks that having a rep with a combustion engine makes AM more relevant commercially then he might take gat route - but realistically AM are moving towards EV,even if that's been delayed in the short term

Wolff is a one third owner of the team. But the engine is owned by AMG. If they want an EV engine they'll get it,and Wolff I more interested in racing than with what he is racing with. Renault would be happy wit an EV formula, and EV could tempt VW, BMW, Honda, etc back in

I'm sure EV will attract the white box automotive corporates but that isn't what I said. And that isn't really what F1 is either.

Without the engine there is no F1. What F1 is lacking is a wide variety of engines - customer teams don't have enough competitive choice for them to really be effective, or to support the number of teams that F1 really needs. More engine ess,more affordability is what they need, but as I said, it's a unicorn. Something will have to give, and I think you'de going to see the end of loud engines, combustion etc. That's still within the ethos of F1 historically, but it doesn't appeal to fans who grew up in a certain era and thought that's always now it will be.

Colin Chapman would have been all over the possibilities of an EV engine

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:08 am

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:57 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 pm



I'm sure EV will attract the white box automotive corporates but that isn't what I said. And that isn't really what F1 is either.

Without the engine there is no F1. What F1 is lacking is a wide variety of engines - customer teams don't have enough competitive choice for them to really be effective, or to support the number of teams that F1 really needs. More engine ess,more affordability is what they need, but as I said, it's a unicorn. Something will have to give, and I think you'de going to see the end of loud engines, combustion etc. That's still within the ethos of F1 historically, but it doesn't appeal to fans who grew up in a certain era and thought that's always now it will be.

Colin Chapman would have been all over the possibilities of an EV engine

Not sure you've understood what I've said. The new fuel refineries they're developing pull CO² out of the atmosphere, millions of tons of it to combine with hydrogen to produce synthetic fuel. EV technology relies of lithium-ion batteries that produce millions of tons of CO² when they're manufactured. F1 would be more environmentally-friendly using a combustion engine using synthetic fuel produced from the new refineries than if it used an EV/hybrid car. And those V10/V8 ICEs wouldn't have to be financed by one of the automotive corporates, they could be made by independent specialists and branded with whatever they like. You talk about continuing down the EV/hybrid route in the same breadth as using the word affordability as well! Engine builders like Cosworth, Judd, AVL etc could build a 1000bhp V10/8 than ran on synthetic fuel for a fraction of what the EV/hybrids cost. F1 is still in the entertainment business remember, it isn't just a testbed for the automotive industry which is the decision it needs to make.

As for what Colin Chapman would have wanted, he'd likely have wanted a driverless car that could corner at much higher Gs too but that isn't F1 either is it.

Saint wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:32 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:08 am

Saint wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:57 pm

Without the engine there is no F1. What F1 is lacking is a wide variety of engines - customer teams don't have enough competitive choice for them to really be effective, or to support the number of teams that F1 really needs. More engine ess,more affordability is what they need, but as I said, it's a unicorn. Something will have to give, and I think you'de going to see the end of loud engines, combustion etc. That's still within the ethos of F1 historically, but it doesn't appeal to fans who grew up in a certain era and thought that's always now it will be.

Colin Chapman would have been all over the possibilities of an EV engine

Not sure you've understood what I've said. The new fuel refineries they're developing pull CO² out of the atmosphere, millions of tons of it to combine with hydrogen to produce synthetic fuel. EV technology relies of lithium-ion batteries that produce millions of tons of CO² when they're manufactured. F1 would be more environmentally-friendly using a combustion engine using synthetic fuel produced from the new refineries than if it used an EV/hybrid car. And those V10/V8 ICEs wouldn't have to be financed by one of the automotive corporates, they could be made by independent specialists and branded with whatever they like. You talk about continuing down the EV/hybrid route in the same breadth as using the word affordability as well! Engine builders like Cosworth, Judd, AVL etc could build a 1000bhp V10/8 than ran on synthetic fuel for a fraction of what the EV/hybrids cost. F1 is still in the entertainment business remember, it isn't just a testbed for the automotive industry which is the decision it needs to make.

As for what Colin Chapman would have wanted, he'd likely have wanted a driverless car that could corner at much higher Gs too but that isn't F1 either is it.

I understood fine - but F1 as currently incarnated needs engine manufacturers who see relevance in the Formula, and unless global government change their policies then ICE won't cut it. Given the huge cost in developing any sort of engine, there simply isn't a market for Cosworth, Judd, or anyone else - unless it stops being F1 and cuts it's cloth as a far less extreme motorsport.

The requirements for the engine are a unicorn. You've ticked off 3 boxes and ignored the other 2, but one of those is probably the key requirement

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:06 am

Saint wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:32 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:08 am



Not sure you've understood what I've said. The new fuel refineries they're developing pull CO² out of the atmosphere, millions of tons of it to combine with hydrogen to produce synthetic fuel. EV technology relies of lithium-ion batteries that produce millions of tons of CO² when they're manufactured. F1 would be more environmentally-friendly using a combustion engine using synthetic fuel produced from the new refineries than if it used an EV/hybrid car. And those V10/V8 ICEs wouldn't have to be financed by one of the automotive corporates, they could be made by independent specialists and branded with whatever they like. You talk about continuing down the EV/hybrid route in the same breadth as using the word affordability as well! Engine builders like Cosworth, Judd, AVL etc could build a 1000bhp V10/8 than ran on synthetic fuel for a fraction of what the EV/hybrids cost. F1 is still in the entertainment business remember, it isn't just a testbed for the automotive industry which is the decision it needs to make.

As for what Colin Chapman would have wanted, he'd likely have wanted a driverless car that could corner at much higher Gs too but that isn't F1 either is it.

I understood fine - but F1 as currently incarnated needs engine manufacturers who see relevance in the Formula, and unless global government change their policies then ICE won't cut it. Given the huge cost in developing any sort of engine, there simply isn't a market for Cosworth, Judd, or anyone else - unless it stops being F1 and cuts it's cloth as a far less extreme motorsport.

The requirements for the engine are a unicorn. You've ticked off 3 boxes and ignored the other 2, but one of those is probably the key requirement

There's no huge cost in developing a 1000bhp V10, it's already been done. And F1 is plenty extreme enough with one of those bolted to a 500kg chassis.

The point you miss is the direction F1 goes in; does it weld itself to the big automotive manufacturers come what may or does it retain some autonomy with the ability to function without the risk of going all-in with stakeholders who come and go whenever it suits? If you can achieve the latter whilst also being carbon neutral and retaining all the fan favourite USPs of F1 whilst on a budget about 40% of what the top teams were spending in 2020, then that's an attractive proposition.

Saint wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:19 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:06 am

Saint wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:32 am

I understood fine - but F1 as currently incarnated needs engine manufacturers who see relevance in the Formula, and unless global government change their policies then ICE won't cut it. Given the huge cost in developing any sort of engine, there simply isn't a market for Cosworth, Judd, or anyone else - unless it stops being F1 and cuts it's cloth as a far less extreme motorsport.

The requirements for the engine are a unicorn. You've ticked off 3 boxes and ignored the other 2, but one of those is probably the key requirement

There's no huge cost in developing a 1000bhp V10, it's already been done. And F1 is plenty extreme enough with one of those bolted to a 500kg chassis.

The point you miss is the direction F1 goes in; does it weld itself to the big automotive manufacturers come what may or does it retain some autonomy with the ability to function without the risk of going all-in with stakeholders who come and go whenever it suits? If you can achieve the latter whilst also being carbon neutral and retaining all the fan favourite USPs of F1 whilst on a budget about 40% of what the top teams were spending in 2020, then that's an attractive proposition.

It's a non-starter, especially considering what F1 has already issued as it's requirements. The decision has been made as to the direction of travel.

What you're describing is more like what Indy has done. That's fine. But it isn't F1

Saint wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:02 pm F1 season looks likely to get a huge shakeup. Portimao was lined up for race 3 but it now seems likely we will get a second Bahrain race. And Silverstone have been approached about the possibilities of staging an extra 2 races this summer (but not back to back)

Things look like they could change very rapidly and Liberty are giving themselves a lot of options

Saint wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:19 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:06 am

Saint wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:32 am

I understood fine - but F1 as currently incarnated needs engine manufacturers who see relevance in the Formula, and unless global government change their policies then ICE won't cut it. Given the huge cost in developing any sort of engine, there simply isn't a market for Cosworth, Judd, or anyone else - unless it stops being F1 and cuts it's cloth as a far less extreme motorsport.

The requirements for the engine are a unicorn. You've ticked off 3 boxes and ignored the other 2, but one of those is probably the key requirement

There's no huge cost in developing a 1000bhp V10, it's already been done. And F1 is plenty extreme enough with one of those bolted to a 500kg chassis.

The point you miss is the direction F1 goes in; does it weld itself to the big automotive manufacturers come what may or does it retain some autonomy with the ability to function without the risk of going all-in with stakeholders who come and go whenever it suits? If you can achieve the latter whilst also being carbon neutral and retaining all the fan favourite USPs of F1 whilst on a budget about 40% of what the top teams were spending in 2020, then that's an attractive proposition.

It's a non-starter, especially considering what F1 has already issued as it's requirements. The decision has been made as to the direction of travel.

What you're describing is more like what Indy has done. That's fine. But it isn't F1