NPR

Deveron Boy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:28 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:55 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:21 pm

It's bad politics from Truss.

Even if there is a kernel of truth in constitutional shenanigans why on earth would you provide the SNP with every single piece of campaign materials you'd ever need? You'd say - Scotland and the SNP are failing in many areas and Sturgeon should focus on that rather than constitutional shenanigans.

It shows she isn't a serious politician, unfortunately.

Agree with this. Truss is a idiot . Saying your going to ignore someone who runs an important part of the UKS governance because it plays well to your party electorate is beyond stupid and and in line with the Tories pouring fuel on the constitutional issue in Scotland out of ignorance or recklessness

That said Sturgeon isn't a head of state or the Scottish people manifest in human form - I mean a majority of Scots voted for someone else to be FM last year. I think Biffer is attempting to conflate a single politician with a whole nation and its simply dishonest.

i'm a Scot who has lived in England for last 30 years, no vote in any future referendum and would vote to remain in UK if I did and her comment totally triggered me.

It is the English National Party 'these jocks should know their place' arrogance (clapping and cheering from the floor in Exeter) that shines through in every interaction as emphasised by the human skelton on breakfast tv this am. Sturgeon will actually be delighted by these comments, losing Johnson was a blow to independence campaign but if Truss is going to continue with same approach mana for the independence campaign.

Yes, I'm not fan of SNP/SG/Sturgeon, but that really infuriated me, as I would think it would anyone apart from the heidcases. It's a really basic misunderstanding of the situation which is very worrying.

Deveron Boy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:28 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:55 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:21 pm

It's bad politics from Truss.

Even if there is a kernel of truth in constitutional shenanigans why on earth would you provide the SNP with every single piece of campaign materials you'd ever need? You'd say - Scotland and the SNP are failing in many areas and Sturgeon should focus on that rather than constitutional shenanigans.

It shows she isn't a serious politician, unfortunately.

Agree with this. Truss is a idiot . Saying your going to ignore someone who runs an important part of the UKS governance because it plays well to your party electorate is beyond stupid and and in line with the Tories pouring fuel on the constitutional issue in Scotland out of ignorance or recklessness

That said Sturgeon isn't a head of state or the Scottish people manifest in human form - I mean a majority of Scots voted for someone else to be FM last year. I think Biffer is attempting to conflate a single politician with a whole nation and its simply dishonest.

i'm a Scot who has lived in England for last 30 years, no vote in any future referendum and would vote to remain in UK if I did and her comment totally triggered me.

It is the English National Party 'these jocks should know their place' arrogance (clapping and cheering from the floor in Exeter) that shines through in every interaction as emphasised by the human skelton on breakfast tv this am. Sturgeon will actually be delighted by these comments, losing Johnson was a blow to independence campaign but if Truss is going to continue with same approach mana for the independence campaign.

Totally agree, I was very much the same. The level of arrogance and stupidity was incredible. Left an open goal that even the dumbest of Snats couldn't miss.

Rolling back Devolution has always been an aim of the ERG branch; it is the most important policy, as far as the DUP is concerned.

Of course it's not something they talk about, but just look at how they opportunistically removed the ability of the regions to spend the replacement for EU funding, & brought the power back to Westminster. If they wanted to, they could get Stormont running in a month, but instead they prefer to make it look like a lame duck, so they can come back at some point in the future, & say Devolution failed, & London should take back control. The narrative is that anything good comes from London, & the local institutions are corrupt, & a waste of money.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:14 pm Rolling back Devolution has always been an aim of the ERG branch; it is the most important policy, as far as the DUP is concerned.

Of course it's not something they talk about, but just look at how they opportunistically removed the ability of the regions to spend the replacement for EU funding, & brought the power back to Westminster. If they wanted to, they could get Stormont running in a month, but instead they prefer to make it look like a lame duck, so they can come back at some point in the future, & say Devolution failed, & London should take back control. The narrative is that anything good comes from London, & the local institutions are corrupt, & a waste of money.

Yep.

And they can do it without the consent of the people in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:14 pm Rolling back Devolution has always been an aim of the ERG branch; it is the most important policy, as far as the DUP is concerned.

Of course it's not something they talk about, but just look at how they opportunistically removed the ability of the regions to spend the replacement for EU funding, & brought the power back to Westminster. If they wanted to, they could get Stormont running in a month, but instead they prefer to make it look like a lame duck, so they can come back at some point in the future, & say Devolution failed, & London should take back control. The narrative is that anything good comes from London, & the local institutions are corrupt, & a waste of money.

While there are Tory headbangers who are straightforwardly English nationalist, I suspect they are outnumbered by their colleagues who are just ignorant about UK constitutional issues or don't care about anything that happens outside the M25.

Minor issue, but Corbyn has shown his true colours and even his former fellow travellers are condemning him

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:06 pm Changing farming regulations would also create a very hard border in the Irish sea. Most of Truss' policies will never happen as they're totally straight bananas.

Comes back to the same thing that the arrogance of Truss and her ilk is that they know better. In materials what regulations are they going to remove? Restrictions on lead, cadmium, pfos, pfas,pcb, banned phthalates? I don't think the UK populace is desperate to have our own cancer alley. The Tories seem to have the impression that scientists have restricted these materials for a laugh. A lot of these currently just point to the EU reg. Good luck getting the resource to rewrite them or creating a scientific argument for there removal. Also as always when something is clearly stupid you will get push back which will be blamed on opposition to brexit rather than opposition to something clearly stupid. A lot of effort for zero benefit.

petej wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:26 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:06 pm Changing farming regulations would also create a very hard border in the Irish sea. Most of Truss' policies will never happen as they're totally straight bananas.

Comes back to the same thing that the arrogance of Truss and her ilk is that they know better. In materials what regulations are they going to remove? Restrictions on lead, cadmium, pfos, pfas,pcb, banned phthalates? I don't think the UK populace is desperate to have our own cancer alley. The Tories seem to have the impression that scientists have restricted these materials for a laugh. A lot of these currently just point to the EU reg. Good luck getting the resource to rewrite them or creating a scientific argument for there removal. Also as always when something is clearly stupid you will get push back which will be blamed on opposition to brexit rather than opposition to something clearly stupid. A lot of effort for zero benefit.

The problem is they aren't proposing to review them, & then make a reasoned decision.

JRM, (who is the main driver behind this shithousery), made it very clear that the plan is to just mark the laws, etc, & put an hard date in the Bill, & if the Law hasn't been reviewed, & approved, by the date, it just gets dissolved !

There isn't enough time to do the reviewing & approval thru the House, so the outcome will undoubtedly be that thousands of acts will just disappear overnight, & no one will have a fucking clue which ones. It's complete madness; unless you're a disaster capitalist, & you only make money when things are in chaos & on fire.

petej wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:26 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:06 pm Changing farming regulations would also create a very hard border in the Irish sea. Most of Truss' policies will never happen as they're totally straight bananas.

Comes back to the same thing that the arrogance of Truss and her ilk is that they know better. In materials what regulations are they going to remove? Restrictions on lead, cadmium, pfos, pfas,pcb, banned phthalates? I don't think the UK populace is desperate to have our own cancer alley. The Tories seem to have the impression that scientists have restricted these materials for a laugh. A lot of these currently just point to the EU reg. Good luck getting the resource to rewrite them or creating a scientific argument for there removal. Also as always when something is clearly stupid you will get push back which will be blamed on opposition to brexit rather than opposition to something clearly stupid. A lot of effort for zero benefit.

It's the dumb Brexiter idea that the reason that we have regulations is because of the EU and not that we are an advanced economy with a highly developed bureaucratic state.

Most of the regulations that my farming family seem to find onerous are the homegrown ones that came in after the foot and mouth outbreak in 2001.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:41 am And we're back onto the "bonfire of regulations", 2 400 is the number being touted, this time to "unleash British farming". The same British farming that is being undermined by unfavourable FTA's with Aus & NZ for example...and thus making it difficult to export to the EU since our regs will no doubt be far less stringent than theirs

Also this is yet again another soundbite for Tory members rather than something meaningful for the people concerned. Last time I was back home it was greenwashing (land being taken out of farming to plant trees for carbon credits) that was agitating farmers, they really hate that idea. Closely followed by not being able to buy fertilizer and machinery.

petej wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:26 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:06 pm Changing farming regulations would also create a very hard border in the Irish sea. Most of Truss' policies will never happen as they're totally straight bananas.

Comes back to the same thing that the arrogance of Truss and her ilk is that they know better.

One of the complaints of her staff is yes she's smart, competent, hard working (so not a Boris), but she can be somewhat more belief led than evidence led

Blackmac wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:55 pm

Deveron Boy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:28 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:55 pm

Agree with this. Truss is a idiot . Saying your going to ignore someone who runs an important part of the UKS governance because it plays well to your party electorate is beyond stupid and and in line with the Tories pouring fuel on the constitutional issue in Scotland out of ignorance or recklessness

That said Sturgeon isn't a head of state or the Scottish people manifest in human form - I mean a majority of Scots voted for someone else to be FM last year. I think Biffer is attempting to conflate a single politician with a whole nation and its simply dishonest.

i'm a Scot who has lived in England for last 30 years, no vote in any future referendum and would vote to remain in UK if I did and her comment totally triggered me.

It is the English National Party 'these jocks should know their place' arrogance (clapping and cheering from the floor in Exeter) that shines through in every interaction as emphasised by the human skelton on breakfast tv this am. Sturgeon will actually be delighted by these comments, losing Johnson was a blow to independence campaign but if Truss is going to continue with same approach mana for the independence campaign.

Totally agree, I was very much the same. The level of arrogance and stupidity was incredible. Left an open goal that even the dumbest of Snats couldn't miss.

Lets face it , the Tories have written off Scotland , well having any sizeable Scottish MP''s anyway

It also plays very well in the shires the whole 'Back in your box, Jocks' as witnessed in the debate , so she is playing up to her own supporters - well that's politics folks

and in the end Westminster having to grant a section 30 for a second indy ref , Truss , as PM, would hold all the cards.

Is it arrogant , maybe, is it stupid , probably not

Meanwhile Corbyn has gone full retard...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ng-ukraine

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:25 pm Meanwhile Corbyn has gone full retard...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ng-ukraine

I don't get it. Ukraine Russia war is about as clear cut as anything is. He's a fucking moron.

Dogbert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:57 pm ...and in the end Westminster having to grant a section 30 for a second indy ref , Truss , as PM, would hold all the cards.

Is it arrogant , maybe, is it stupid , probably not

It really is !

It's been obvious for years that you guys aren't used to having Referendums.

The result is much more about how the public feels about the different sides, than the argument being voted upon !

This shit just incrementally shifts everyone closer to voting for Independence, because it validates the SNP position that Westminster doesn't care what happens in Scotland, & that it doesn't really matter who's in power there, because its all the same. The Tories aren't popular in Scotland at the best of times, & their current Leader seems to be despised,, & their current Scottish Leader is an embarrassment, & now their new Leader is showing contempt for someone who at least voted into office by her Countrymen. Everything they do is just incrementally pushing people towards voting against whatever the Tories are for, & that right now means pushing for Scottish Independence.

petej wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:39 pm

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:25 pm Meanwhile Corbyn has gone full retard...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ng-ukraine

I don't get it. Ukraine Russia war is about as clear cut as anything is. He's a fucking moron.

Comrade Corbyn faced the decision of admitting he'd been a fool for 40 odd years, or denying reality; & he chose to deny reality !

There's no fool like an old fool as an Auntie of mine used to say.

petej wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:39 pm

sturginho wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:25 pm Meanwhile Corbyn has gone full retard...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ng-ukraine

I don't get it. Ukraine Russia war is about as clear cut as anything is. He's a fucking moron.

Yep, he's delusional.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:48 pm

Dogbert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:57 pm ...and in the end Westminster having to grant a section 30 for a second indy ref , Truss , as PM, would hold all the cards.

Is it arrogant , maybe, is it stupid , probably not

It really is !

It's been obvious for years that you guys aren't used to having Referendums.

The result is much more about how the public feels about the different sides, than the argument being voted upon !

This shit just incrementally shifts everyone closer to voting for Independence, because it validates the SNP position that Westminster doesn't care what happens in Scotland, & that it doesn't really matter who's in power there, because its all the same. The Tories aren't popular in Scotland at the best of times, & their current Leader seems to be despised,, & their current Scottish Leader is an embarrassment, & now their new Leader is showing contempt for someone who at least voted into office by her Countrymen. Everything they do is just incrementally pushing people towards voting against whatever the Tories are for, & that right now means pushing for Scottish Independence.

With Brexit , and Bojo , we have barely seen the polls for Scottish independence move , there is no sign of any increasing of movement.People have become entrenched in their views, and I don't see any of that changing substantially

Liz Truss could announce a proposal of the killing of every Scottish newborn child , a a chunk of Sottish voters would roll behind it as a great idea.

Scotland , and to an extent Northern Ireland are just a political football for both the Tories & Labour.

The result of the next general Election will be interesting , we may well see a resurgence in the Labour party in Scotland. Not that the Labour party are any better than any of the current options ( i don't believe they are ), but simply that the current administration has a long record to defend , and with all administrations , they simply run out of steam , and people vote for a change , just for changes stake - the old " let some else have a shot."

Truss knows she will not win anything in Scotland , she has nothing to lose by she is saying , and the consequences that whatever she says will push people towards Indy ref 2 is probably fairly remote, but it does seem to be popular in the vote in England she is courting.

Any chance of a hung parliament, and that is entirely possible , and we have the image of Starmer in Sturgeons pocket , similar to Milliband / Salmond and that plays well to the Tories

Dogbert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:16 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:48 pm

Dogbert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:57 pm ...and in the end Westminster having to grant a section 30 for a second indy ref , Truss , as PM, would hold all the cards.

Is it arrogant , maybe, is it stupid , probably not

It really is !

It's been obvious for years that you guys aren't used to having Referendums.

The result is much more about how the public feels about the different sides, than the argument being voted upon !

This shit just incrementally shifts everyone closer to voting for Independence, because it validates the SNP position that Westminster doesn't care what happens in Scotland, & that it doesn't really matter who's in power there, because its all the same. The Tories aren't popular in Scotland at the best of times, & their current Leader seems to be despised,, & their current Scottish Leader is an embarrassment, & now their new Leader is showing contempt for someone who at least voted into office by her Countrymen. Everything they do is just incrementally pushing people towards voting against whatever the Tories are for, & that right now means pushing for Scottish Independence.

With Brexit , and Bojo , we have barely seen the polls for Scottish independence move , there is no sign of any increasing of movement.People have become entrenched in their views, and I don't see any of that changing substantially

Liz Truss could announce a proposal of the killing of every Scottish newborn child , a a chunk of Sottish voters would roll behind it as a great idea.

Scotland , and to an extent Northern Ireland are just a political football for both the Tories & Labour.

The result of the next general Election will be interesting , we may well see a resurgence in the Labour party in Scotland. Not that the Labour party are any better than any of the current options ( i don't believe they are ), but simply that the current administration has a long record to defend , and with all administrations , they simply run out of steam , and people vote for a change , just for changes stake - the old " let some else have a shot."

Truss knows she will not win anything in Scotland , she has nothing to lose by she is saying , and the consequences that whatever she says will push people towards Indy ref 2 is probably fairly remote, but it does seem to be popular in the vote in England she is courting.

Any chance of a hung parliament, and that is entirely possible , and we have the image of Starmer in Sturgeons pocket , similar to Milliband / Salmond and that plays well to the Tories

Major was in the UUP's pocket, & the IRA ceasefire was wasted, & the Good Friday agreement opportunity missed, & hence didn't happen until the next Labour Government.

If May hadn't called that GE, & ended up in the DUP's pocket, the UK might have actually exited the EU with a non fucked agreement.

FPTP doesn't give you outcomes that result in sustainable coalitions, just alliances that are doomed to fail, & fuck the smaller party.

Dogbert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:16 pm With Brexit , and Bojo , we have barely seen the polls for Scottish independence move , there is no sign of any increasing of movement.People have become entrenched in their views, and I don't see any of that changing substantially

Liz Truss could announce a proposal of the killing of every Scottish newborn child , a a chunk of Sottish voters would roll behind it as a great idea.

Scotland , and to an extent Northern Ireland are just a political football for both the Tories & Labour.

The result of the next general Election will be interesting , we may well see a resurgence in the Labour party in Scotland. Not that the Labour party are any better than any of the current options ( i don't believe they are ), but simply that the current administration has a long record to defend , and with all administrations , they simply run out of steam , and people vote for a change , just for changes stake - the old " let some else have a shot."

Truss knows she will not win anything in Scotland , she has nothing to lose by she is saying , and the consequences that whatever she says will push people towards Indy ref 2 is probably fairly remote, but it does seem to be popular in the vote in England she is courting.

Any chance of a hung parliament, and that is entirely possible , and we have the image of Starmer in Sturgeons pocket , similar to Milliband / Salmond and that plays well to the Tories

Bit of a blanket statement to say there’s been no movement. There were twenty consecutive polls in favour of independence in 20-21. That’s shifted back a bit,which is bound to happen in times of uncertainty, but the most recent poll was again in favour.

In the three years before the referendum there were only three polls in favour.

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:03 am

Dogbert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:16 pm With Brexit , and Bojo , we have barely seen the polls for Scottish independence move , there is no sign of any increasing of movement.People have become entrenched in their views, and I don't see any of that changing substantially

Liz Truss could announce a proposal of the killing of every Scottish newborn child , a a chunk of Sottish voters would roll behind it as a great idea.

Scotland , and to an extent Northern Ireland are just a political football for both the Tories & Labour.

The result of the next general Election will be interesting , we may well see a resurgence in the Labour party in Scotland. Not that the Labour party are any better than any of the current options ( i don't believe they are ), but simply that the current administration has a long record to defend , and with all administrations , they simply run out of steam , and people vote for a change , just for changes stake - the old " let some else have a shot."

Truss knows she will not win anything in Scotland , she has nothing to lose by she is saying , and the consequences that whatever she says will push people towards Indy ref 2 is probably fairly remote, but it does seem to be popular in the vote in England she is courting.

Any chance of a hung parliament, and that is entirely possible , and we have the image of Starmer in Sturgeons pocket , similar to Milliband / Salmond and that plays well to the Tories

Bit of a blanket statement to say there’s been no movement. There were twenty consecutive polls in favour of independence in 20-21. That’s shifted back a bit,which is bound to happen in times of uncertainty, but the most recent poll was again in favour.

In the three years before the referendum there were only three polls in favour.

Well, OK, but there hasn't been the real shift that most were expecting, including myself, and it's unlikely that there is going to be larger opportunities for it to do so than Brexit or Boris.

I think it is a bit of entrenched views but also that the SNP offer no credible alternatives. It must be time for reflection for all independence supporters if two massive bombs don't change the dial, years of grievance and fairy tale notions of an amazing future with no credible policy to back it up hasn't pushed the right buttons. As I've said a few times, it needs a grown up debate with a realistic view of the probable outcomes and how tough it will be for a couple of decades. I honestly think that would have changed the numbers more than the constant and tired old bullshit.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:45 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:03 am

Dogbert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:16 pm With Brexit , and Bojo , we have barely seen the polls for Scottish independence move , there is no sign of any increasing of movement.People have become entrenched in their views, and I don't see any of that changing substantially

Liz Truss could announce a proposal of the killing of every Scottish newborn child , a a chunk of Sottish voters would roll behind it as a great idea.

Scotland , and to an extent Northern Ireland are just a political football for both the Tories & Labour.

The result of the next general Election will be interesting , we may well see a resurgence in the Labour party in Scotland. Not that the Labour party are any better than any of the current options ( i don't believe they are ), but simply that the current administration has a long record to defend , and with all administrations , they simply run out of steam , and people vote for a change , just for changes stake - the old " let some else have a shot."

Truss knows she will not win anything in Scotland , she has nothing to lose by she is saying , and the consequences that whatever she says will push people towards Indy ref 2 is probably fairly remote, but it does seem to be popular in the vote in England she is courting.

Any chance of a hung parliament, and that is entirely possible , and we have the image of Starmer in Sturgeons pocket , similar to Milliband / Salmond and that plays well to the Tories

Bit of a blanket statement to say there’s been no movement. There were twenty consecutive polls in favour of independence in 20-21. That’s shifted back a bit,which is bound to happen in times of uncertainty, but the most recent poll was again in favour.

In the three years before the referendum there were only three polls in favour.

Well, OK, but there hasn't been the real shift that most were expecting, including myself, and it's unlikely that there is going to be larger opportunities for it to do so than Brexit or Boris.

I think it is a bit of entrenched views but also that the SNP offer no credible alternatives. It must be time for reflection for all independence supporters if two massive bombs don't change the dial, years of grievance and fairy tale notions of an amazing future with no credible policy to back it up hasn't pushed the right buttons. As I've said a few times, it needs a grown up debate with a realistic view of the probable outcomes and how tough it will be for a couple of decades. I honestly think that would have changed the numbers more than the constant and tired old bullshit.

I absolutely agree slick. But the issue is - the next couple of decades and maybe longer are going to be tough in the declining power of an isolated UK. Neither party has any credible solution to the problems Britain faces most of which they absolutely fail to even acknowledge.

The campaign will be - struggle in the UK or struggle in the unknown.

There has to be a worry of a Quebec style fall for the SNP.
Most realistic scenario is no second referendum under a Tory government and Starmer being forced to rule out any accommodation with the SNP to win an election. So another decade passes. At what point does, as has already been referenced, the same old schtick and the same old grievances become 'old man yells at cloud'? How long will people put up with being led up a garden path that the smarter minds in the SNP probably know leads nowhere?

Why can't these arseholes just put their hands up and admit they made a mistake?

The Conservative former Northern Ireland secretary, Brandon Lewis, has attempted to defend Liz Truss by suggesting it was “never the case” that the Tory leadership contender had planned to cut public sector pay.
Lewis, who is backing Truss’s leadership bid, said “there was never any risk to the pay of the brilliant public sector” after the foreign secretary suffered a humiliating setback when she was forced into a U-turn on civil service pay after a backlash from within her own party.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:48 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:45 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:03 am

Bit of a blanket statement to say there’s been no movement. There were twenty consecutive polls in favour of independence in 20-21. That’s shifted back a bit,which is bound to happen in times of uncertainty, but the most recent poll was again in favour.

In the three years before the referendum there were only three polls in favour.

Well, OK, but there hasn't been the real shift that most were expecting, including myself, and it's unlikely that there is going to be larger opportunities for it to do so than Brexit or Boris.

I think it is a bit of entrenched views but also that the SNP offer no credible alternatives. It must be time for reflection for all independence supporters if two massive bombs don't change the dial, years of grievance and fairy tale notions of an amazing future with no credible policy to back it up hasn't pushed the right buttons. As I've said a few times, it needs a grown up debate with a realistic view of the probable outcomes and how tough it will be for a couple of decades. I honestly think that would have changed the numbers more than the constant and tired old bullshit.

I absolutely agree slick. But the issue is - the next couple of decades and maybe longer are going to be tough in the declining power of an isolated UK. Neither party has any credible solution to the problems Britain faces most of which they absolutely fail to even acknowledge.

The campaign will be - struggle in the UK or struggle in the unknown.

But I think that's a credible path to go down rather than the current "the UK is sinking but with independence things will be AMAZING". It would certainly engage me and it might actually attract credible people drive it.

God help us...

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:01 am God help us...

Maybe they meant it started with and remained a failure?

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:45 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:03 am

Dogbert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:16 pm With Brexit , and Bojo , we have barely seen the polls for Scottish independence move , there is no sign of any increasing of movement.People have become entrenched in their views, and I don't see any of that changing substantially

Liz Truss could announce a proposal of the killing of every Scottish newborn child , a a chunk of Sottish voters would roll behind it as a great idea.

Scotland , and to an extent Northern Ireland are just a political football for both the Tories & Labour.

The result of the next general Election will be interesting , we may well see a resurgence in the Labour party in Scotland. Not that the Labour party are any better than any of the current options ( i don't believe they are ), but simply that the current administration has a long record to defend , and with all administrations , they simply run out of steam , and people vote for a change , just for changes stake - the old " let some else have a shot."

Truss knows she will not win anything in Scotland , she has nothing to lose by she is saying , and the consequences that whatever she says will push people towards Indy ref 2 is probably fairly remote, but it does seem to be popular in the vote in England she is courting.

Any chance of a hung parliament, and that is entirely possible , and we have the image of Starmer in Sturgeons pocket , similar to Milliband / Salmond and that plays well to the Tories

Bit of a blanket statement to say there’s been no movement. There were twenty consecutive polls in favour of independence in 20-21. That’s shifted back a bit,which is bound to happen in times of uncertainty, but the most recent poll was again in favour.

In the three years before the referendum there were only three polls in favour.

Well, OK, but there hasn't been the real shift that most were expecting, including myself, and it's unlikely that there is going to be larger opportunities for it to do so than Brexit or Boris.

I think it is a bit of entrenched views but also that the SNP offer no credible alternatives. It must be time for reflection for all independence supporters if two massive bombs don't change the dial, years of grievance and fairy tale notions of an amazing future with no credible policy to back it up hasn't pushed the right buttons. As I've said a few times, it needs a grown up debate with a realistic view of the probable outcomes and how tough it will be for a couple of decades. I honestly think that would have changed the numbers more than the constant and tired old bullshit.

I think there are many on the pro independence side who are relying on the campaign to shift attitudes in the same way as it did in 2014. This could well be a mistake. Equally when confronted with a definite decision, it may be a case of ' ok, here's the shitshow of the last ten years, make a choice' pushing indy over the line.

For a lot of the two years pre referendum, the debate was pretty grown up IMO. It was only when the howling UK media and westminster politicians got involved in the last few months that it got rabid.

Wrt quebec, if the unionists had any sense they'd follow that example. Two relatively close referendums, both lost, made the movement fade away. But by denying the second one and fuelling the grievance, they're making the indy movement stronger.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:52 am Why can't these arseholes just put their hands up and admit they made a mistake?

The Conservative former Northern Ireland secretary, Brandon Lewis, has attempted to defend Liz Truss by suggesting it was “never the case” that the Tory leadership contender had planned to cut public sector pay.
Lewis, who is backing Truss’s leadership bid, said “there was never any risk to the pay of the brilliant public sector” after the foreign secretary suffered a humiliating setback when she was forced into a U-turn on civil service pay after a backlash from within her own party.

It was rather Borisesque of Liz to suggest the issue was the initial misrepresentation of her policy by the media was to blame. Which doesn't even stand up to the next question of why have you then reversed it. Sad to think whilst one might not agree with her policies she's continuing the theme of putting out BS from the most powerful office in the country

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:09 am
Wrt quebec, if the unionists had any sense they'd follow that example. Two relatively close referendums, both lost, made the movement fade away. But by denying the second one and fuelling the grievance, they're making the indy movement stronger.

Obviously an English perspective but one that spends a lot of time in Scotland with a lot of family up there. From here the grievance element seems intractable - it didn't appear over the horizon in 2014 and isn't going to disappear post a second no vote and so the question instead is how you manage it. The evidence that it has made the indy movement stronger I don't find compelling - seems to me the referendum just drew battle lines and few are moving between the two.
Gambling it all on a second referendum seems a much riskier call to me than attempting to directly engage with 'middle Scotland' and being a more proactive and positive part of Scottish life. Obviously saying you'll ignore the FM isn't helpful for this.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:25 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:50 am There has to be a worry of a Quebec style fall for the SNP.
Most realistic scenario is no second referendum under a Tory government and Starmer being forced to rule out any accommodation with the SNP to win an election. So another decade passes. At what point does, as has already been referenced, the same old schtick and the same old grievances become 'old man yells at cloud'? How long will people put up with being led up a garden path that the smarter minds in the SNP probably know leads nowhere?

That was a needlessly long way of saying I hope

Not really

Truss and most of the Tory party are just a bunch of English supremacists.
I mean it isn't a massive mystery.
They think England, and being English makes them superior. The end. Fullstop, what's next?


It would be interesting btw to find out her views on Unionist Labour leader in Wales, Mark Drakeford. Is he and Wales to be ignored too? One would assume so.

He probabky presents such a conundrum to all the English supremacists in the Tory party.

Why should all use the phrase "English supremacists" at least six times a day btw..

These useless shithouses can't even organisee their own leadership election let alone run the country.
Farcical!!!!

Conservative members who were due to receive their postal ballot papers have been informed that the papers will arrive later than scheduled following security concerns and could arrive as late as 11 August.
An email on Tuesday evening said the papers, due to be sent out from Monday to about 160,000 Tory members, said:
Your ballot is now on the way – but it will arrive with you a little later than we originally said.
Please do not worry. This is because we have taken some time to add some additional security to our ballot process, which has delayed us slightly.
The announcement of the leadership contest result is due to take place on 5 September, which is expected to remain the same despite the delay.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:18 am These useless shithouses can't even organisee their own leadership election let alone run the country.
Farcical!!!!

Conservative members who were due to receive their postal ballot papers have been informed that the papers will arrive later than scheduled following security concerns and could arrive as late as 11 August.
An email on Tuesday evening said the papers, due to be sent out from Monday to about 160,000 Tory members, said:
Your ballot is now on the way – but it will arrive with you a little later than we originally said.
Please do not worry. This is because we have taken some time to add some additional security to our ballot process, which has delayed us slightly.
The announcement of the leadership contest result is due to take place on 5 September, which is expected to remain the same despite the delay.

I actually don't know if they've done it this way before, leaving it open to people to change their votes online. If all that's happened here is that's new and someone has pointed out actually that creates some risk then fair enough they've delayed and perhaps even curtailed the option to have a more secure election.

Small solace to take around their potential to listen and react, but it's something

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:24 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:18 am These useless shithouses can't even organisee their own leadership election let alone run the country.
Farcical!!!!

Conservative members who were due to receive their postal ballot papers have been informed that the papers will arrive later than scheduled following security concerns and could arrive as late as 11 August.
An email on Tuesday evening said the papers, due to be sent out from Monday to about 160,000 Tory members, said:
Your ballot is now on the way – but it will arrive with you a little later than we originally said.
Please do not worry. This is because we have taken some time to add some additional security to our ballot process, which has delayed us slightly.
The announcement of the leadership contest result is due to take place on 5 September, which is expected to remain the same despite the delay.

I actually don't know if they've done it this way before, leaving it open to people to change their votes online. If all that's happened here is that's new and someone has pointed out actually that creates some risk then fair enough they've delayed and perhaps even curtailed the option to have a more secure election.

Small solace to take around their potential to listen and react, but it's something

This loon thinks it a good reason to to stop the contest and put the B londe Slug back in as PM

Former Conservative Party treasurer, Lord Cruddas, has called for the leadership contest to be suspended after the delivery of ballot papers to party members was delayed following security concerns.
Cruddas, who has led a campaign for Boris Johnson’s name to be on the ballot, suggested the PM’s resignation should be rejected and that he should stay in his role until any security issues are resolved.
He called for the board to “immediately” suspend the leadership campaign and to allow party members to decide on a yes/no ballot to accept Johnson’s resignation.

He added:
If the members vote to keep Boris then there is no need for a leadership campaign and no more cyber security threats

What on earth made them think in the first place that being able to change your vote was a good idea?

Any form of electronic voting is fucking nuts

I wonder if they have to present photo ID in order to vote?

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:09 pm I wonder if they have to present photo ID in order to vote?

A ration card will probably suffice.