Kicking off in Israel

[Raggs]

What other pathway? How do you remove Hamas?

They're in control of the country. They take whatever supplies they want. They have a network of hundreds of kilometers of tunnels, food, fuel and weapons. They actively state that looking after Palestinians is not their responsibility. They're goal is the eradication of Israel and the expulsion of the Jews. They will not allow elections. How do you remove them?

A start would be retreating from all territory taken from Palestine. Take the settlements down, remove the hardcore settlers who practise barbarity upon the Palestinians still trying to live on their land... and maybe, you know, a stop to the indiscriminate killing of Palestinian citizens.

You know... a backdown from belligerent self righteousness.

I'm in complete agreement with removing the settlers. It would be a hugely positive step, and giving far more independence to the west bank etc. The sort of positive step that a lasting peace could be built on.

Or, you could force all the settlers to leave, remove all the road blocks whilst continuing to supply goods and services, and the local populace could vote for the group that continues to bomb you and have stated their aim is to wipe you off the earth. Which is what happened in Gaza. That was the first step, it wasn't everything, but it was pretty large and in the right direction, and what was the reward? A far better armed and prepared enemy.

I still agree on removing the settlers, or simply telling them they'll receive no protection from prosecution or West Bank police forces.

[Uncle fester]

What other pathway? How do you remove Hamas?

They're in control of the country. They take whatever supplies they want. They have a network of hundreds of kilometers of tunnels, food, fuel and weapons. They actively state that looking after Palestinians is not their responsibility. They're goal is the eradication of Israel and the expulsion of the Jews. They will not allow elections. How do you remove them?

A start would be retreating from all territory taken from Palestine. Take the settlements down, remove the hardcore settlers who practise barbarity upon the Palestinians still trying to live on their land... and maybe, you know, a stop to the indiscriminate killing of Palestinian citizens.

You know... a backdown from belligerent self righteousness.

Remove the settlements sure but some sort of occupation (temp or otherwise) is going to have to happen to ensure the peace is kept, while the country rebuilds. The lads firing the rockets are not going away. 3rd party occupation probably wouldn't work and wouldn't be acceptable to Israel anyway (would probably work out like the original British mandate). So then you're looking at Israeli occupation and that doesn't fill me with confidence. Over the summer, had to listen to some hotshots in my control room bragging about their military service spent harassing elderly Palestinians. Not a great starting point for a peacekeeping force.

Essentially there will only be peace if Palestinians see it as a better option than lashing out at Israel.

In the short term, stopping the killing is a good starting point. Can figure it out from there.

[Calculon]

What a fucking depressing read this thread is. A country wishes to defend itself from murderous nutters. Cue the outcry.

I posted a long time ago on PR about the Corbynites' antisemitism. The shite that was peddled then by posters - "'Zionists' doesn't mean Jews", "I know a Jew who agrees with me", "it's all manipulated by Israeli propaganda" is oozing out again, here and elsewhere.

Those who spend their time being more bothered (and in many cases exclusively bothered) by Israel and the Jewish people's willingness to defend themselves may as well have 'I dislike and distrust Jews and I therefore oppose anything to do with the single, homeland Jewish state" tattooed on their foreheads.

FFS.

An Islamofascist government attacks Israel and as soon as Israel responds it is " we need a ceasefire, stop the killing! you can’t defeat Hams etc"

Just a reminder of what “soldiers” from this government did




Anyway, If Israel manages to destroy Hamas possible solutions being discussed includes an Arab peacekeeping force. Not sure if those countries would be willing to contribute, especially since they dislike the Palestinians almost as much as they dislike the Jews

https://time.com/6330197/diplomacy-isra ... n-of-gaza/

[Calculon]

I think using a backward shithole like Russia as the benchmark for "Jewish people v world" is a poor starting point.

As to your wider point, yes, people killing each other with abandon in one location is liable to kick off killing in other locations too.

not sure where you get the Jews v world thing from, but it’s not surprising Jewish people are feeling under threat in many countries. Including from shitkickers and their enablers in the west.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67281042


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... -104519942

[C69]

Never heard of the term shitkickers.
What and why?

[Slick]

What other pathway? How do you remove Hamas?

They're in control of the country. They take whatever supplies they want. They have a network of hundreds of kilometers of tunnels, food, fuel and weapons. They actively state that looking after Palestinians is not their responsibility. They're goal is the eradication of Israel and the expulsion of the Jews. They will not allow elections. How do you remove them?

Honestly, I have no idea, I'm a rugby fan who used to build stock-proof fencing for a living, I'm not equipped to suggest an answer to this problem which has been in the making for a heck of a long time.

Having said that, In my limited view of it, I don't think that levelling Gazza and thousands of deaths is the pathway to peace. I don't know how you talk to Hamas, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the way, it looks to me like the Hamas extremists want war and they are achieving that, possibly with the hope of expansion across the region and elsewhere as the world falls into the line expected of them.

edit, it also looks like war suits an Israeli PM wishing to secure his own position.

I do wonder if Hamas expected their raid to be so "successful" and so hadn't really bargained on this reaction.

[Calculon]

Yeah, let's have a ceasefire

[Line6 HXFX]

It's hilarious that Keir Starmer thinks that a two state solution is the answer. Hasn't been the answer for 25 years.

As an aside I have partook in these Israel Palestinian threads for 25 years. Funny how you don't get palistinians up in here, being all obnoxious, accusational full blown abusive wankers, yet there are always dozens of pro isrealies being absolute cunts about the place.

Guess it's because just one side is really fighting for their lives, existence and survival...and is too busy to post cunty shite on forums.

[Uncle fester]

I think using a backward shithole like Russia as the benchmark for "Jewish people v world" is a poor starting point.

As to your wider point, yes, people killing each other with abandon in one location is liable to kick off killing in other locations too.

not sure where you get the Jews v world thing from, but it’s not surprising Jewish people are feeling under threat in many countries. Including from shitkickers and their enablers in the west.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67281042


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... -104519942

So..... Israel should be allowed to do whatever it wants?

[Biffer]

This is fucking bizarre

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... dApp_Other

I'm going to protest on your behalf
OK, who are you going to protest against
McDonald's
OK... What are you doing exactly?
I'm releasing some animals in their restaurant
Uh.. OK.. What?
I'll paint them in Palestinian colours
What animals?
Rats
You're representing us as rats.
yes
As vermin in a reataurant
Yes
Anyone got a spare rocket?

[Hugo]

Truthfully I haven't tracked this thread for a long time so apologies for just jumping in here.....

Looking at the protests, one of the things that has struck me is that (over the long term) as the Muslim population grows in Europe its going to change public opinion on the Israel-Palestine situation.

Support for Palestine is going to only grow in Europe over the next 50 years or so.

[Plim]

I think using a backward shithole like Russia as the benchmark for "Jewish people v world" is a poor starting point.

As to your wider point, yes, people killing each other with abandon in one location is liable to kick off killing in other locations too.

not sure where you get the Jews v world thing from, but it’s not surprising Jewish people are feeling under threat in many countries. Including from shitkickers and their enablers in the west.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67281042


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... -104519942

So..... Israel should be allowed to do whatever it wants?

It should be able to do what it's doing.

[vball]

Still very apt.

https://youtu.be/IgLg9zQH3vU?si=AxSPlU5utYTmw44o

[Raggs]

https://twitter.com/gaza_report

Seems to be quite a good news source, taking footage from Gazans.

[Tichtheid]

I saw this last night and thought of this thread

[Calculon]

I saw this last night and thought of this thread

Naive posters calling for a ceasefire and thinking they have a special insight into the Israel Hamas war because they're Irish

[Guy Smiley]

Naive posters calling for a ceasefire and thinking they have a special insight into the Israel Hamas war because they're Irish

Says the South African.

[Tichtheid]

I saw this last night and thought of this thread

Naive posters calling for a ceasefire and thinking they have a special insight into the Israel Hamas war because they're Irish

Fergal Sharky was around ten years old when the euphemistically titled "Troubles" started that particular period of Irish history. He saw 30 years of that and now has seen 25 years of peace.

I think he has a view worth considering.

I'm not Irish, but as a Scot I'm aware of bigotry and sectarianism - it's a curse on the central belt of Scotland, if we had a different culture, say that of the United States and their guns, then I'm sure we'd see bloodthirsty bastards from both sides calling for more and more killing.

Just like we are with Israel and Gazza now.

[Uncle fester]

I saw this last night and thought of this thread

Naive posters calling for a ceasefire and thinking they have a special insight into the Israel Hamas war because they're Irish

Fergal Sharky was around ten years old when the euphemistically titled "Troubles" started that particular period of Irish history. He saw 30 years of that and now has seen 25 years of peace.

I think he has a view worth considering.

I'm not Irish, but as a Scot I'm aware of bigotry and sectarianism - it's a curse on the central belt of Scotland, if we had a different culture, say that of the United States and their guns, then I'm sure we'd see bloodthirsty bastards from both sides calling for more and more killing.

Just like we are with Israel and Gazza now.

Oh you sweet child of summer.
Work your way back to the 1641 rebellion and subsequent massacres.

[Tichtheid]

Naive posters calling for a ceasefire and thinking they have a special insight into the Israel Hamas war because they're Irish

Fergal Sharky was around ten years old when the euphemistically titled "Troubles" started that particular period of Irish history. He saw 30 years of that and now has seen 25 years of peace.

I think he has a view worth considering.

I'm not Irish, but as a Scot I'm aware of bigotry and sectarianism - it's a curse on the central belt of Scotland, if we had a different culture, say that of the United States and their guns, then I'm sure we'd see bloodthirsty bastards from both sides calling for more and more killing.

Just like we are with Israel and Gazza now.

Oh you sweet child of summer.
Work your way back to the 1641 rebellion and subsequent massacres.

I was trying to be very specific with the "that particular period of Irish history" line in regards to "The Troubles" (I really hate that term - do Irish people think it's sufficient?) to pick it out from hundreds of years of history.

If I wasn't clear, that's on me as the writer.

[Calculon]

Lovely people these protesters

[Sandstorm]

Lovely people these protesters

London? Looks like Welsh coppers at the end….

[C69]

What really irks me is how many on the left don't condemn Hamas and their theocratic ideology.
For me at least Israel was createated with a leftist albeit Zionist ideology and Kibbutzniks and collectivism at its inception was credit to socialist ideology.
It's a pity that right wing ideology borne from imho years of hatred from their neighbours and fuelled by the Yankee dollar has taken a hold.
Hamas and today's Israel under Netanyahu are different siides of the same coin. Utter bastards.
The UN has corroborated today that Israel has been using white phospohorous again ffs and has bombed another refugee camp, hospitals and ambulances.

Guess what the IDF has said that there were Hamas operatives there. It's a stock reply now even when civilians are slaughtered.
If the Hamas leaders are to be taken out, I have no issue is the same goes for the Israeli leaders meet the same fate if it means peace.

[Uncle fester]

Fergal Sharky was around ten years old when the euphemistically titled "Troubles" started that particular period of Irish history. He saw 30 years of that and now has seen 25 years of peace.

I think he has a view worth considering.

I'm not Irish, but as a Scot I'm aware of bigotry and sectarianism - it's a curse on the central belt of Scotland, if we had a different culture, say that of the United States and their guns, then I'm sure we'd see bloodthirsty bastards from both sides calling for more and more killing.

Just like we are with Israel and Gazza now.

Oh you sweet child of summer.
Work your way back to the 1641 rebellion and subsequent massacres.

I was trying to be very specific with the "that particular period of Irish history" line in regards to "The Troubles" (I really hate that term - do Irish people think it's sufficient?) to pick it out from hundreds of years of history.

If I wasn't clear, that's on me as the writer.

Didn't mean it as being a swipe at you. Being specific with long running conflicts like this risks missing the big picture.

For example, Bibi and his fans want to keep the focus solely on October 7th and not take a wider look at the conflict.

Same argument came be made in the other direction also.

[Calculon]

What really irks me is how many on the left don't condemn Hamas and their theocratic ideology.
For me at least Israel was createated with a leftist albeit Zionist ideology and Kibbutzniks and collectivism at its inception was credit to socialist ideology.
It's a pity that right wing ideology borne from imho years of hatred from their neighbours and fuelled by the Yankee dollar has taken a hold.
Hamas and today's Israel under Netanyahu are different siides of the same coin. Utter bastards.
The UN has corroborated today that Israel has been using white phospohorous again ffs and has bombed another refugee camp, hospitals and ambulances.

Guess what the IDF has said that there were Hamas operatives there. It's a stock reply now even when civilians are slaughtered.
If the Hamas leaders are to be taken out, I have no issue is the same goes for the Israeli leaders meet the same fate if it means peace.

Hamas and Israel are different sides of the same coin - tbh that's a petty disgusting thing to say

[C69]

What really irks me is how many on the left don't condemn Hamas and their theocratic ideology.
For me at least Israel was createated with a leftist albeit Zionist ideology and Kibbutzniks and collectivism at its inception was credit to socialist ideology.
It's a pity that right wing ideology borne from imho years of hatred from their neighbours and fuelled by the Yankee dollar has taken a hold.
Hamas and today's Israel under Netanyahu are different siides of the same coin. Utter bastards.
The UN has corroborated today that Israel has been using white phospohorous again ffs and has bombed another refugee camp, hospitals and ambulances.

Guess what the IDF has said that there were Hamas operatives there. It's a stock reply now even when civilians are slaughtered.
If the Hamas leaders are to be taken out, I have no issue is the same goes for the Israeli leaders meet the same fate if it means peace.

Hamas and Israel are different sides of the same coin - tbh that's a petty disgusting thing to say

Thanks I see them both as vile killers of babies and civilians.
Facts

Using your parlance

[Calculon]

Hamas and Israel are different sides of the same coin - tbh that's a petty disgusting thing to say

Thanks I see them both as vile killers of babies and civilians.
Facts

Using your parlance

Yeah, I get it, they’re equally bad, morally equivalent, same what Corbyn and those on the extreme left believe

[C69]

Hamas and Israel are different sides of the same coin - tbh that's a petty disgusting thing to say

Thanks I see them both as vile killers of babies and civilians.
Facts

Using your parlance

Yeah, I get it, they’re equally bad, morally equivalent, same what Corbyn and those on the extreme left believe

Not really Corbyn allies himself with HAMAS and the terrorists at times.
Whereas I totally distance myself from all forms of terrorism be it state sponsored or from religious extremism.
You really do have to read people's posts and not just assume.

[sockwithaticket]

I have every sympathy with Israel constantly living with a background of existential threat and it has every right to defend itself against.

Hamas' recent terror attack was horrendous, grotesque, but Israel's response tactics have been akin to trying to swat a mosquito with a mallet and if not quite as grisly in their execution are so indiscriminate in their targetting as to not be materially different from Hamas going after civillians.

[Calculon]

Thanks I see them both as vile killers of babies and civilians.
Facts

Using your parlance

Yeah, I get it, they’re equally bad, morally equivalent, same what Corbyn and those on the extreme left believe

Not really Corbyn allies himself with HAMAS and the terrorists at times.
Whereas I totally distance myself from all forms of terrorism be it state sponsored or from religious extremism.
You really do have to read people's posts and not just assume.

Right, you think Israel killing civilians, wether they're palistinian or Israeli hostages, being used as human shields by Hamas to protect their fighters and leaders is equally as as bad as what Hamas did on 7/10.

[Calculon]

I have every sympathy with Israel constantly living with a background of existential threat and it has every right to defend itself against.

Hamas' recent terror attack was horrendous, grotesque, but Israel's response tactics have been akin to trying to swat a mosquito with a mallet and if not quite as grisly in their extions ecution are so indiscriminate in their targetting as to not be materially different from Hamas going after civillians.

What specifically do you think they should have done differently, in terms of their military operation?

[C69]

Yeah, I get it, they’re equally bad, morally equivalent, same what Corbyn and those on the extreme left believe

Not really Corbyn allies himself with HAMAS and the terrorists at times.
Whereas I totally distance myself from all forms of terrorism be it state sponsored or from religious extremism.
You really do have to read people's posts and not just assume.

Right, you think Israel killing civilians, wether they're palistinian or Israeli hostages, being used as human shields by Hamas to protect their fighters and leaders is equally as as bad as what Hamas did on 7/10.

Not as grotesque but they don't give a shit about blowing up hospitals or killing kids.
HAMAS are cnuts of a different order but the IDF are still cnuts especially after the UN have declared tha they used white phosphorus in Lebanon.
Yes the UN have proof of this as they stated this morning.

[Calculon]

Not really Corbyn allies himself with HAMAS and the terrorists at times.
Whereas I totally distance myself from all forms of terrorism be it state sponsored or from religious extremism.
You really do have to read people's posts and not just assume.

Right, you think Israel killing civilians, wether they're palistinian or Israeli hostages, being used as human shields by Hamas to protect their fighters and leaders is equally as as bad as what Hamas did on 7/10.

Not as grotesque but they don't give a shit about blowing up hospitals or killing kids.
HAMAS are cnuts of a different order but the IDF are still cnuts especially after the UN have declared tha they used white phosphorus in Lebanon.
Yes the UN have proof of this as they stated this morning.

A hospital that was also used as a Hamas base...

[sockwithaticket]

I have every sympathy with Israel constantly living with a background of existential threat and it has every right to defend itself against.

Hamas' recent terror attack was horrendous, grotesque, but Israel's response tactics have been akin to trying to swat a mosquito with a mallet and if not quite as grisly in their extions ecution are so indiscriminate in their targetting as to not be materially different from Hamas going after civillians.

What specifically do you think they should have done differently, in terms of their military operation?

Ground ops. It carries a much greater risk of casualties to the armed forces, but it is more targetted and enables a much, much greater abilitie to confirm kill or capture Hamas fighters while reigning in the civillian collateral damage that's draining their international support.

[C69]

Right, you think Israel killing civilians, wether they're palistinian or Israeli hostages, being used as human shields by Hamas to protect their fighters and leaders is equally as as bad as what Hamas did on 7/10.

Not as grotesque but they don't give a shit about blowing up hospitals or killing kids.
HAMAS are cnuts of a different order but the IDF are still cnuts especially after the UN have declared tha they used white phosphorus in Lebanon.
Yes the UN have proof of this as they stated this morning.

A hospital that was also used as a Hamas base...

Just bomb the shit out of it and kill all those babies in incubators and those on life support machines and pregnant women then. Oh sorry collateral damage
HAMAS are cnuts who probably use these civilians as human shields but by fuck Israel know this and still kill the civilians with not a jot of care
Even the Yanks now are calling for restraint.
When the USA do this it's much worse than is reported
Your one sided opinion is skewed and so blood thirsty.

[Uncle fester]

I have every sympathy with Israel constantly living with a background of existential threat and it has every right to defend itself against.

Hamas' recent terror attack was horrendous, grotesque, but Israel's response tactics have been akin to trying to swat a mosquito with a mallet and if not quite as grisly in their extions ecution are so indiscriminate in their targetting as to not be materially different from Hamas going after civillians.

What specifically do you think they should have done differently, in terms of their military operation?

Ground ops. It carries a much greater risk of casualties to the armed forces, but it is more targetted and enables a much, much greater abilitie to confirm kill or capture Hamas fighters while reigning in the civillian collateral damage that's draining their international support.

This.

They haven't earned the right to go wide and are getting nailed behind the gainline. A longer term approach (thinking further than Bibi's next election) would see Israel properly commit to rooting out Hamas while taking reasonable steps to minimize civilian casualties. That would be step 1. Would mean more casualties to the IDF but less uproar internationally.

Step 2 would be a more equitable peace for non-Hamas Palestinians but let's start with reducing the killing of civilians first.

Tide is definitely turning in Europe with the scale of protests in UK especially.

[Uncle fester]

Not as grotesque but they don't give a shit about blowing up hospitals or killing kids.
HAMAS are cnuts of a different order but the IDF are still cnuts especially after the UN have declared tha they used white phosphorus in Lebanon.
Yes the UN have proof of this as they stated this morning.

A hospital that was also used as a Hamas base...

Just bomb the shit out of it and kill all those babies in incubators and those on life support machines and pregnant women then. Oh sorry collateral damage
HAMAS are cnuts who probably use these civilians as human shields but by fuck Israel know this and still kill the civilians with not a jot of care
Even the Yanks now are calling for restraint.
When the USA do this it's much worse than is reported
Your one sided opinion is skewed and so blood thirsty.

In the same way as anti-semites hide behind pro-palestinian support, there's some uglies hiding behind support for Israel as well.

[C69]

A hospital that was also used as a Hamas base...

Just bomb the shit out of it and kill all those babies in incubators and those on life support machines and pregnant women then. Oh sorry collateral damage
HAMAS are cnuts who probably use these civilians as human shields but by fuck Israel know this and still kill the civilians with not a jot of care
Even the Yanks now are calling for restraint.
When the USA do this it's much worse than is reported
Your one sided opinion is skewed and so blood thirsty.

In the same way as anti-semites hide behind pro-palestinian support, there's some uglies hiding behind support for Israel as well.

I am unashamedly a socialist and possibly bit of a Trot and I feel anyone on the left that supports Hamas the IRA repugnant or does not condemn them disgraceful..
As disgusting as those supporting Israel.
Cards on the table supporting either side means you support civilian deaths.
Cunts

[Raggs]

Not really Corbyn allies himself with HAMAS and the terrorists at times.
Whereas I totally distance myself from all forms of terrorism be it state sponsored or from religious extremism.
You really do have to read people's posts and not just assume.

Right, you think Israel killing civilians, wether they're palistinian or Israeli hostages, being used as human shields by Hamas to protect their fighters and leaders is equally as as bad as what Hamas did on 7/10.

Not as grotesque but they don't give a shit about blowing up hospitals or killing kids.
HAMAS are cnuts of a different order but the IDF are still cnuts especially after the UN have declared tha they used white phosphorus in Lebanon.
Yes the UN have proof of this as they stated this morning.

Link to the UN and white phosphorus?

[Uncle fester]

Junior minister sure but it's quite terrifying that people like this are in government.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right ... -meetings/

Also this is a very weird remark.

They can go to Ireland or deserts