The Brexit Thread

[GogLais]

Fishing was always a bullshit obstacle; the real issues are the Level Playing Field, & Governance, i.e. will the UK agree to the judgement from an EU Court.

I can't see the bumblecunts Leadership surviving a concession on either of those; particularly the latter, & we all know that his survival is the only thing that matters.

You say the bit about an EU court ruling over the Uk in the future as if that’s totally reasonable.... it isn’t it’s not part of any trade agreement anywhere in the world. It cannot be signed as it would tie a future parliaments hands literally.

No leader could / should survive that.

It looks like the EU have dropped the demand that ECJ is involved in disputes. Redress through the UK courts for EU

I was going to say that bigger and better minds than mine will have thought about this but why couldn’t a new UK/EU court be set up to deal with trade issues?

[Longshanks]

You say the bit about an EU court ruling over the Uk in the future as if that’s totally reasonable.... it isn’t it’s not part of any trade agreement anywhere in the world. It cannot be signed as it would tie a future parliaments hands literally.

No leader could / should survive that.

It looks like the EU have dropped the demand that ECJ is involved in disputes. Redress through the UK courts for EU

I was going to say that bigger and better minds than mine will have thought about this but why couldn’t a new UK/EU court be set up to deal with trade issues?

Because both sides have great legal systems anyway. This was a bit about keeping control on the UK, the EU are nervous about its departure.
Boris still insisting that no ground will be given on UK taking control of its waters. But of more significance is the fact that the controversial clauses in the IMB removed by the Lords, are going back in.
Coveney said that EU will not sign off a deal if they are still there.
Markets think there will be a deal though

[fishfoodie]

It looks like the EU have dropped the demand that ECJ is involved in disputes. Redress through the UK courts for EU

I was going to say that bigger and better minds than mine will have thought about this but why couldn’t a new UK/EU court be set up to deal with trade issues?

Because both sides have great legal systems anyway. This was a bit about keeping control on the UK, the EU are nervous about its departure.
Boris still insisting that no ground will be given on UK taking control of its waters. But of more significance is the fact that the controversial clauses in the IMB removed by the Lords, are going back in.
Coveney said that EU will not sign off a deal if they are still there.
Markets think there will be a deal though

Is the way the current Government intends to gut the UKs Supreme Court; because it lost a number of decisions there; indicative of, "Great" Legal System ?

[Longshanks]

I was going to say that bigger and better minds than mine will have thought about this but why couldn’t a new UK/EU court be set up to deal with trade issues?

Because both sides have great legal systems anyway. This was a bit about keeping control on the UK, the EU are nervous about its departure.
Boris still insisting that no ground will be given on UK taking control of its waters. But of more significance is the fact that the controversial clauses in the IMB removed by the Lords, are going back in.
Coveney said that EU will not sign off a deal if they are still there.
Markets think there will be a deal though

Is the way the current Government intends to gut the UKs Supreme Court; because it lost a number of decisions there; indicative of, "Great" Legal System ?

You think trade disputes will end up in the supreme Court? You're just being silly.

[fishfoodie]

Because both sides have great legal systems anyway. This was a bit about keeping control on the UK, the EU are nervous about its departure.
Boris still insisting that no ground will be given on UK taking control of its waters. But of more significance is the fact that the controversial clauses in the IMB removed by the Lords, are going back in.
Coveney said that EU will not sign off a deal if they are still there.
Markets think there will be a deal though

Is the way the current Government intends to gut the UKs Supreme Court; because it lost a number of decisions there; indicative of, "Great" Legal System ?

You think trade disputes will end up in the supreme Court? You're just being silly.

that wasn't my question

[Longshanks]

Is the way the current Government intends to gut the UKs Supreme Court; because it lost a number of decisions there; indicative of, "Great" Legal System ?

You think trade disputes will end up in the supreme Court? You're just being silly.

that wasn't my question

If the reports are accurate the EU are happy with UK courts. Take it up with them.

[Bimbowomxn]

The UK “Supreme” court is very modern and reform / change has no historical concerns. The emoting about it is nonsense as usual.

[Longshanks]

Definitely a few signs of EU unity under strain.

[fishfoodie]

All about fish now......

You need to get a better news source.

Releasing identical statements on Twitter, Mr Barnier and Lord Frost said: "After one week of intense negotiation in London, the two chief negotiators agreed today that the conditions for an agreement are not met, due to significant divergences on level playing field, governance and fisheries.

"On this basis, they agreed to pause the talks in order to brief their principals on the state of play of the negotiations."

So they are stuck on the same issues they had 6 months ago, but with the additional one of governance, now that the EU27 know that the UK are being Governed by a bunch of liars, who plan on breaking International Law.

[Longshanks]

All about fish now......

You need to get a better news source.

Releasing identical statements on Twitter, Mr Barnier and Lord Frost said: "After one week of intense negotiation in London, the two chief negotiators agreed today that the conditions for an agreement are not met, due to significant divergences on level playing field, governance and fisheries.

"On this basis, they agreed to pause the talks in order to brief their principals on the state of play of the negotiations."

So they are stuck on the same issues they had 6 months ago, but with the additional one of governance, now that the EU27 know that the UK are being Governed by a bunch of liars, who plan on breaking International Law.

But fishing is the main sticking point.
Report in Torygraph that EU demanded 10 years of unfettered access to UK waters just as a deal looked imminent.

[westport]

A senior European source said: “This is Macron playing De Gaulle. It is very domestic in focus but has all the diplomatic subtlety of a bull in a china shop. It could smash it all up.”

Mr Barnier is travelling back to Brussels today. Tomorrow he will discuss the deal with European ambassadors.

It is understood that the fresh demands were unexpectedly tabled at a meeting with Lord Frost on Thursday.

Mr Barnier said the EU wanted powers to impose punitive tariffs on British exports if Britain diverged from EU environmental and labour laws. He is also understood to have demanded an opt-out for the European Commission on state aid rules, which would allow Brussels to support industries across the bloc as part of its Covid recovery plan. This could put Britain at a disadvantage to France, Spain or Italy, countries that are expected to benefit from the lion’s share of the EU fund.

One British official said the new demands were “completely unrealistic”.

In the parlance of diplomatic language the reference in Michel Barnier’s and Lord Frost’s statement last night to “significant divergences” can be translated as a serious row (Oliver Wright writes). There was no disguising No 10’s anger at the three new demands tabled by the EU.

The first was a variation on a theme — that the UK must be compelled to abide by EU environmental or social rules.

The second is new: that the European Commission is exempt from state aid provisions. This would let the bloc channel money into EU industries, for example for coronavirus recovery plans, while the UK could not.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fran ... -2g2pzxpmn

[Bimbowomxn]

The second is new: that the European Commission is exempt from state aid provisions. This would let the bloc channel money into EU industries, for example for coronavirus recovery plans, while the UK could not.

It’s quite ludicrous. Are they also looking to amend their other trade deals accordingly?

[Longshanks]

The second is new: that the European Commission is exempt from state aid provisions. This would let the bloc channel money into EU industries, for example for coronavirus recovery plans, while the UK could not.

It’s quite ludicrous. Are they also looking to amend their other trade deals accordingly?

Where do we sign?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

A senior European source said: “This is Macron playing De Gaulle. It is very domestic in focus but has all the diplomatic subtlety of a bull in a china shop. It could smash it all up.”

He did go a bit 'no deal is better than a bad deal' with his intervention

[fishfoodie]

"Easiest deal in human history"

"We will hold all the cards"

"Oven Ready Deal"

[Rinkals]

It looks suspiciously like the UK has decided that there won't be a deal and is claiming that a raft of new demands have been suddenly put on the table by the EU.

As I see it, it only needs one of the 27 to scupper the deal, and if Macron is unhappy about the terms, then you may as well not bother. If Boris is playing hardball in the hope that brinkmanship will secure a deal that the EU don't necessarily want, then I'm not sure it will work. A walk in the woods or no walk in the woods.

A no-deal will certainly involve a lot of pain for both sides, but I suspect it will hurt the UK more.

[fishfoodie]

It looks suspiciously like the UK has decided that there won't be a deal and is claiming that a raft of new demands have been suddenly put on the table by the EU.

As I see it, it only needs one of the 27 to scupper the deal, and if Macron is unhappy about the terms, then you may as well not bother. If Boris is playing hardball in the hope that brinkmanship will secure a deal that the EU don't necessarily want, then I'm not sure it will work. A walk in the woods or no walk in the woods.

A no-deal will certainly involve a lot of pain for both sides, but I suspect it will hurt the UK more.

Just like every trade deal the EU has every done; I'm sure when the UK was a member, it too objected to deal conditions.

This is why the EU warned the Brexshiters that getting a deal done in months was a fantasy.

[westport]

There are two issues that were part of the “level playing field”.

One part was that the EU did not like the idea of us making the UK more attractive to manufacturers by reducing employment and environmental standards. By all account, the UK agreed to keep the current standards / rules / laws. That was acceptable to the EU up until this week when the EU demanded that we add to the current employment / environmental laws when the EU adds to theirs. Basically, if the EU decided to increase manufacturing costs, the UK must do the same. This is basically a case of Brussels imposing their decisions on the UK with the UK having no say.

The second part was to do with banning unfair subsidies that might give an industry / company an unfair advantage. Again, both sides were close to an agreement. The UK and EU member would agree to not have those sort of subsidies. Then, this week, it emerged that the EU was going to create a big fund that the EU would use to subsidise EU industry. Strictly speaking, this wouldn’t break the agreement preventing the UK and member states subsidising industry because it would be the EU (not the member states) issuing the subsidies. However, the end result would be industries within the EU being able to get subsidies that the UK was banned from providing.

[Bimbowomxn]

It looks suspiciously like the UK has decided that there won't be a deal and is claiming that a raft of new demands have been suddenly put on the table by the EU.

As I see it, it only needs one of the 27 to scupper the deal, and if Macron is unhappy about the terms, then you may as well not bother. If Boris is playing hardball in the hope that brinkmanship will secure a deal that the EU don't necessarily want, then I'm not sure it will work. A walk in the woods or no walk in the woods.

A no-deal will certainly involve a lot of pain for both sides, but I suspect it will hurt the UK more.

Just like every trade deal the EU has every done; I'm sure when the UK was a member, it too objected to deal conditions.

This is why the EU warned the Brexshiters that getting a deal done in months was a fantasy.

They warned that the French were ganna be cunts ?

[Rinkals]

It looks suspiciously like the UK has decided that there won't be a deal and is claiming that a raft of new demands have been suddenly put on the table by the EU.

As I see it, it only needs one of the 27 to scupper the deal, and if Macron is unhappy about the terms, then you may as well not bother. If Boris is playing hardball in the hope that brinkmanship will secure a deal that the EU don't necessarily want, then I'm not sure it will work. A walk in the woods or no walk in the woods.

A no-deal will certainly involve a lot of pain for both sides, but I suspect it will hurt the UK more.

Just like every trade deal the EU has every done; I'm sure when the UK was a member, it too objected to deal conditions.

This is why the EU warned the Brexshiters that getting a deal done in months was a fantasy.

They warned that the French were ganna be cunts ?

The French aren't the one's leaving.

They are entitled to look after their own interests.

If you are looking for who the cunts are, best start with the idiots who told you this was going to be the "Easiest deal in human history", "We will hold all the cards" and "Oven Ready Deal".

[Longshanks]

Rinkals
It's true the French are totally within their rights to veto/amend any deal, just like Britain are within their rights to leave EU influence.
However a no deal will have major consequences not just for economies, but it will lead to fractures within the EU. France will be partly blamed.
Let's hope this is all grandstanding and a deal is sorted.

[fishfoodie]

Rinkals
It's true the French are totally within their rights to veto/amend any deal, just like Britain are within their rights to leave EU influence.
However a no deal will have major consequences not just for economies, but it will lead to fractures within the EU. France will be partly blamed.
Let's hope this is all grandstanding and a deal is sorted.

Why would it lead to fractures ?

The EU27 all set out their requirements for a deal at the outset for Barnier; he's been negotiating with those in mind. If France hadn't objected to something with the current deal, but the IMB clauses still remained in place, then Ireland would have used their veto.

The UK seems to belatedly, be realizing that being in the EU doesn't mean you lose your sovereignty.

[Longshanks]

Rinkals
It's true the French are totally within their rights to veto/amend any deal, just like Britain are within their rights to leave EU influence.
However a no deal will have major consequences not just for economies, but it will lead to fractures within the EU. France will be partly blamed.
Let's hope this is all grandstanding and a deal is sorted.

Why would it lead to fractures ?

The EU27 all set out their requirements for a deal at the outset for Barnier; he's been negotiating with those in mind. If France hadn't objected to something with the current deal, but the IMB clauses still remained in place, then Ireland would have used their veto.

The UK seems to belatedly, be realizing that being in the EU doesn't mean you lose your sovereignty.

Only one way to find out.

[Rinkals]

Rinkals
It's true the French are totally within their rights to veto/amend any deal, just like Britain are within their rights to leave EU influence.
However a no deal will have major consequences not just for economies, but it will lead to fractures within the EU. France will be partly blamed.
Let's hope this is all grandstanding and a deal is sorted.

I have been at pains to point out that a no deal will incur some pain for the EU (though not as much, I suspect as that for the UK).

My OP on this matter referred to my suspicion that the UK were preparing for a no deal by loudly claiming that the EU have made additional demands at the last minute. I haven't seen these new demands listed, so I cannot confirm whether new demands have been made, but it sounds to me like the UK is preparing the ground to blame the EU for an anticipated collapse in the talks.

I have no doubt that the purpose is to fool the Great British Public. Further: I have no doubt that they will be dutifully fooled. As they were in 2016.

[fishfoodie]

Rinkals
It's true the French are totally within their rights to veto/amend any deal, just like Britain are within their rights to leave EU influence.
However a no deal will have major consequences not just for economies, but it will lead to fractures within the EU. France will be partly blamed.
Let's hope this is all grandstanding and a deal is sorted.

Why would it lead to fractures ?

The EU27 all set out their requirements for a deal at the outset for Barnier; he's been negotiating with those in mind. If France hadn't objected to something with the current deal, but the IMB clauses still remained in place, then Ireland would have used their veto.

The UK seems to belatedly, be realizing that being in the EU doesn't mean you lose your sovereignty.

Only one way to find out.

In which case; we'll also get to see what excellent jobs the numerous Ministers have done in preparing for a 'No Deal'; where the PM told the public they would, 'thrive mightily'

There'll be a lot of squeaky bums around the Cabinet table next week.Will there be fractures there too ?

[Longshanks]

Why would it lead to fractures ?

The EU27 all set out their requirements for a deal at the outset for Barnier; he's been negotiating with those in mind. If France hadn't objected to something with the current deal, but the IMB clauses still remained in place, then Ireland would have used their veto.

The UK seems to belatedly, be realizing that being in the EU doesn't mean you lose your sovereignty.

Only one way to find out.

In which case; we'll also get to see what excellent jobs the numerous Ministers have done in preparing for a 'No Deal'; where the PM told the public they would, 'thrive mightily'

There'll be a lot of squeaky bums around the Cabinet table next week.Will there be fractures there too ?

Without doubt. Brexit Boris and his Leave Loving chums will have to answer for this. As you rightly point out, he claimed an oven ready deal! In a way a no deal will expose everything for what it is. Even if they blame France, it will still prove they were full of crap. We haven't reached that point yet, so until we do, we just don't know what the final outcome will be.
Hopefully within the next few hours we will.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Why would it lead to fractures ?

The EU27 all set out their requirements for a deal at the outset for Barnier; he's been negotiating with those in mind. If France hadn't objected to something with the current deal, but the IMB clauses still remained in place, then Ireland would have used their veto.

The UK seems to belatedly, be realizing that being in the EU doesn't mean you lose your sovereignty.

Only one way to find out.

In which case; we'll also get to see what excellent jobs the numerous Ministers have done in preparing for a 'No Deal'; where the PM told the public they would, 'thrive mightily'

There'll be a lot of squeaky bums around the Cabinet table next week.Will there be fractures there too ?

They don't seem to panicked tbh, the combo of handing off blame to the EU and Covid leaves them perhaps a bit worried about the country, but far less worried about the important stuff, namely their own political careers.

[Longshanks]

Talks back on.

[frodder]

Talks back on.

Significant differences remain

[ScarfaceClaw]

Only one way to find out.

In which case; we'll also get to see what excellent jobs the numerous Ministers have done in preparing for a 'No Deal'; where the PM told the public they would, 'thrive mightily'

There'll be a lot of squeaky bums around the Cabinet table next week.Will there be fractures there too ?

They don't seem to panicked tbh, the combo of handing off blame to the EU and Covid leaves them perhaps a bit worried about the country, but far less worried about the important stuff, namely their own political careers.

And money. That’s possibly more important than the career.

[fishfoodie]

Talks back on.

Significant differences remain

Yeah; & nothing in the statement suggests that either side is changing their position; so resuming talks is just both sides not wanting to be the one that calls an end to them.

This is fundamentally different to the way that bumblecunt & Leo meeting; they were able to resolve the single issue that was blocking the deal, because the EU27 had ceded ownership of the WA to Ireland; but now, either the UK concedes everything, or there's no deal; Von der Leyen, can't agree anything; she's just a figurehead; but the problem is with the individual Governments in the EU27. If there had been a meeting between Macron & the bumblecunt, that might have been useful....

There's no time for anything other than complete concession on either side; because the HoC are going to vote on two bills Mon & Tues next week, that are incompatible with any agreement with the EU.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

In which case; we'll also get to see what excellent jobs the numerous Ministers have done in preparing for a 'No Deal'; where the PM told the public they would, 'thrive mightily'

There'll be a lot of squeaky bums around the Cabinet table next week.Will there be fractures there too ?

They don't seem to panicked tbh, the combo of handing off blame to the EU and Covid leaves them perhaps a bit worried about the country, but far less worried about the important stuff, namely their own political careers.

And money. That’s possibly more important than the career.

If all you wanted was money there are many easier ways to come out well ahead of an MP's salary

[Longshanks]

Telegraph suggesting that if progress is made, talks may be extended.
Its tortuous.

[And 1 guest]

They don't seem to panicked tbh, the combo of handing off blame to the EU and Covid leaves them perhaps a bit worried about the country, but far less worried about the important stuff, namely their own political careers.

And money. That’s possibly more important than the career.

If all you wanted was money there are many easier ways to come out well ahead of an MP's salary

Such as marrying one or living next door to one?

[Longshanks]

France hints at compromise with UK over divergence from EU standards
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-minister

[Longshanks]

News reports that a fishing deal has been agreed.....

[Paddington Bear]

Winner of the rugby keeps the fish? Seems reasonable

[Longshanks]

Pound dropping like a stone. Rumour that Boris is about to walk.

[Yeeb]

If France no longer has access to british waters, will they scuttle their fishing ships?

[fishfoodie]

Barnier briefed the EU27 this morning, & said there was no change over fishing, & no progress yesterday, & he was described as "very gloomy".