The one and only UK 2024 election thread - July 4

[Raggs]

Slowly getting through the debate, by god though, someone told rishi to say the "don't surrender" bit, and so far every question has been don't surrender your "fill in question here" response. Normally referring back to the taxes even when it's got nothing to do with the question.

Bit further in and starmer is looking more solid. Pointing out the fact that immigration has never been higher than under rishi is a good point to throw back at him with all his migration comments.

Felt starmer came across better, but never negated the raising of taxes stuff, felt he should either own it or deny it.

[fishfoodie]

Slowly getting through the debate, by god though, someone told rishi to say the "don't surrender" bit, and so far every question has been don't surrender your "fill in question here" response. Normally referring back to the taxes even when it's got nothing to do with the question.

Bit further in and starmer is looking more solid. Pointing out the fact that immigration has never been higher than under rishi is a good point to throw back at him with all his migration comments.

Felt starmer came across better, but never negated the raising of taxes stuff, felt he should either own it or deny it.

Maybe by promising he wouldn't piss away taxes on PPE bought off mates, only to then be incinerated after being stored for years in another mates warehouse at extortionate rates !

Just point out that taxes are the highest in generations, & services are the shittest, & people are asking where the money has gone ... & then let the electorate join the dots on their own.

... and then ask the Head boy when he last paid taxes in the UK ....

[petej]

https://www.ft.com/content/ceb634f5-cf0 ... ec672c6d3b

.

You don't hear much about being "politically homeless" these days.

There is the phenomenon that Alistair Campbell keeps raising and is worried about from a Labour perspective - the perception that Labour have it in the bag frees people up to vote less tactically than they might in a more tightly contested race. They assume others will do enough Labour voting to get rid of the Tories so they can go with someone else either because that's where their heart lies or because they want to send a message to Labour about the direction of the party.

I kind of hope that Labour get a stonking majority that's nevertheless obviously built on sand, it may worry them enough to do something about vote reform.

At another time I'd share his concerns, but it feels like this time the voters are utterly fed up, & want to give the Tories a bloody good kicking, & that means either their own core voters sitting on their hands, or voting for ferret face, & then everyone else voting against them to cause maximum damage.

The latest MRP shows the trend getting ever worse for the Tories, & the LibDems actually becoming the Official Opposition.

My dream scenario has the libdems becoming the official opposition.

[fishfoodie]

There is the phenomenon that Alistair Campbell keeps raising and is worried about from a Labour perspective - the perception that Labour have it in the bag frees people up to vote less tactically than they might in a more tightly contested race. They assume others will do enough Labour voting to get rid of the Tories so they can go with someone else either because that's where their heart lies or because they want to send a message to Labour about the direction of the party.

I kind of hope that Labour get a stonking majority that's nevertheless obviously built on sand, it may worry them enough to do something about vote reform.

At another time I'd share his concerns, but it feels like this time the voters are utterly fed up, & want to give the Tories a bloody good kicking, & that means either their own core voters sitting on their hands, or voting for ferret face, & then everyone else voting against them to cause maximum damage.

The latest MRP shows the trend getting ever worse for the Tories, & the LibDems actually becoming the Official Opposition.

My dream scenario has the libdems becoming the official opposition.

It'll be interesting on July 5th to look at the voting percentages & play, "what if", around the Parliament that PR would have delivered.

[Raggs]

At another time I'd share his concerns, but it feels like this time the voters are utterly fed up, & want to give the Tories a bloody good kicking, & that means either their own core voters sitting on their hands, or voting for ferret face, & then everyone else voting against them to cause maximum damage.

The latest MRP shows the trend getting ever worse for the Tories, & the LibDems actually becoming the Official Opposition.

My dream scenario has the libdems becoming the official opposition.

It'll be interesting on July 5th to look at the voting percentages & play, "what if", around the Parliament that PR would have delivered.

A pointless exercise really, PR removes tactical voting, fptp forces it. You won't get a realistic representation.

[mat the expat]

I didn’t say I agreed with not voting, just that I get some of the reasons why some don’t do it.There are a myriad of reasons why people don’t engage with the political process, from some people thinking the politicians squabbling on tv have no relevance to their lives, through socio-economic reasons for disenfranchisement

Whatever the reasons, “well fuck ‘em if they can’t be arsed” is the very worst response to the problem of low turnout

Whenever I get the chance to explain this, I point out to younger people that politicians only give a toss about people who vote against them. If you're part of their 'always Labour' or 'always tory' base, they couldn't give a shit. If you don't vote, they couldn't give a shit. So vote against them. For anyone, doesn't matter. But vote.

This exactly - no vote, no voice, no whinging

[tabascoboy]

Well despite the advice from tactical voting sites lately, have no desire to vote Labour. The candidate lives outside the constituency and has barely been seen, with practically no social media presence to suggest he knows or cares much. Looks like he's relying on anti-Tory sentiment alone for support whereas others ( excluding the Tory, who is confident enough to allegedly already be planning a leadership bid) have been far more visible.

As much as I want to see the Tory kicked out, this really reinforces the poor state of politics in our country currently. At least with PR while it is also not a perfect system with problems of its own, it does encourage that feeling of every vote counting and being worth fighting for; and not being completely disenfranchised when a wearer of a certain colour of rosette is all but assured of being elected no matter what.

Sorry Labour, but as this is clearly not a priority seat for you and that you consider a Tory win here a fait accompli you haven't done anything to win my vote to represent my constituency. That said, still hoping for the best them nationally and that we get a much needed change of Government even if the margin is nowhere near some of the apocalyptical forecasts of Tory failure.

[Jock42]

Well despite the advice from tactical voting sites lately, have no desire to vote Labour. The candidate lives outside the constituency and has barely been seen, with practically no social media presence to suggest he knows or cares much. Looks like he's relying on anti-Tory sentiment alone for support whereas others ( excluding the Tory, who is confident enough to allegedly already be planning a leadership bid) have been far more visible.

As much as I want to see the Tory kicked out, this really reinforces the poor state of politics in our country currently. At least with PR while it is also not a perfect system with problems of its own, it does encourage that feeling of every vote counting and being worth fighting for; and not being completely disenfranchised when a wearer of a certain colour of rosette is all but assured of being elected no matter what.

Sorry Labour, but as this is clearly not a priority seat for you and that you consider a Tory win here a fait accompli you haven't done anything to win my vote to represent my constituency. That said, still hoping for the best them nationally and that we get a much needed change of Government even if the margin is nowhere near some of the apocalyptical forecasts of Tory failure.

I have the same issue with the Lib Dem candidate here and have tried to email, unsuccessfully. Labour candidate was in my street last week tbf to her but not seen anyone else. She has a social media presence, I've no idea if the others do as I've no interest in voting for them so don't care enough to check. Assuming they've all given up to the SNP. Again, tbf to Labour, despite being predicted to come 3rd she was out.

EDIT: She's 2nd now. Lib Dems a distant 4th.

[tabascoboy]

Paywalled article in The Times, we can be sure the remarks were "tongue-in-cheek, taken out of context etc"

Reform candidate Leslie Lilley said he would ‘slaughter migrants’ and “have their family taken out”
The 70-year-old conspiracy theorist who is likely to reap 20 per cent of the vote in Southend East & Rochford is Facebook friends with the fascist leader Gary Raikes
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/ar ... -d7rl2dgt6

[Margin__Walker]

You can't imagine my disappointment in looking up my Reform candidate and finding him seemingly just to be a normal educated gent from the right of the political spectrum, rather than a complete loon.

[Tichtheid]

As someone who is not wholly against mandatory voting, I completely get why some folk just aren't interested this time.

Sunak and Starmer wrap up their final debate of despair
John Crace

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... of-despair

[tabascoboy]

You can't imagine my disappointment in looking up my Reform candidate and finding him seemingly just to be a normal educated gent from the right of the political spectrum, rather than a complete loon.

Same in mine, lives out of the constituency but has a business within and seems quite "normal"

[Tichtheid]

This is funny, until it's not and shows the barbarity of the shites who have held power in the UK for 14 years

[I like neeps]

You can't imagine my disappointment in looking up my Reform candidate and finding him seemingly just to be a normal educated gent from the right of the political spectrum, rather than a complete loon.

My Reform candidate is very interesting, a Nigerian who emigrated to the UK and now wants to stop immigration. He's very active in Nigerian thinktanks and policy discussions. Which leads me to believe he hasn't yet worked out the average reform voter probably isn't in favour of him being in the UK.

He is also Founder of UK Friends of Trump because Donald is an unmatched deal maker and an example of the American dream.

Interestingly the Labour candidate is wicked witch of west Oxfordshire Isabel Oakeshott's sister.

The Tory candidate is George Osbourne's former SPAD.

The Green candidate is head of my local council and an unrelenting NIMBY (the Greens a pointless party of young radicals and old nimbys who don't want a country path tread on).

The Lib Dem who I'll probably vote for because it's a Lib Dem Con marginal I don't know. I'm toying with the idea of voting for Oakeshott as a well done for getting through life with Isobel as a relation.

[Margin__Walker]

I always find the Green's nimbyism, even on initiatives that will be a net benefit environmentally amusing.

[C69]

You can't imagine my disappointment in looking up my Reform candidate and finding him seemingly just to be a normal educated gent from the right of the political spectrum, rather than a complete loon.

He and the other candidates addressed my daughter's college and she said he had the best grasp of local politics and issues.
The local Tory MP was apparently a "clueless bellend"

Well all Merseyside will be red next week...
Thank fuck

[Margin__Walker]

I'm surprised Mr Moore even turned up, given how invisible they've been.

[Paddington Bear]

I always find the Green's nimbyism, even on initiatives that will be a net benefit environmentally amusing.

They’re a really bizarre party, seemingly unaware that the fact that there is a difference between something that visually looks green and something that is environmentally friendly

There was a big thing the other day around the fact that they oppose the Oxford - Cambridge railway, instead proposing a double decker bus

[Margin__Walker]

I always find the Green's nimbyism, even on initiatives that will be a net benefit environmentally amusing.

They’re a really bizarre party, seemingly unaware that the fact that there is a difference between something that visually looks green and something that is environmentally friendly

There was a big thing the other day around the fact that they oppose the Oxford - Cambridge railway, instead proposing a double decker bus

I know, saw that. It's such odd behaviour. They are either stupid or they've decided that nimbyism locally is a key vote winner.

[Biffer]

You can't imagine my disappointment in looking up my Reform candidate and finding him seemingly just to be a normal educated gent from the right of the political spectrum, rather than a complete loon.

Same in mine, lives out of the constituency but has a business within and seems quite "normal"

Mine is a climate change conspiracy theorist. Jackpot.

[Slick]

I always find the Green's nimbyism, even on initiatives that will be a net benefit environmentally amusing.

They’re a really bizarre party, seemingly unaware that the fact that there is a difference between something that visually looks green and something that is environmentally friendly

There was a big thing the other day around the fact that they oppose the Oxford - Cambridge railway, instead proposing a double decker bus

You should see the state of them in Scotland

[I like neeps]

I always find the Green's nimbyism, even on initiatives that will be a net benefit environmentally amusing.

They’re a really bizarre party, seemingly unaware that the fact that there is a difference between something that visually looks green and something that is environmentally friendly

There was a big thing the other day around the fact that they oppose the Oxford - Cambridge railway, instead proposing a double decker bus

There is a double decker bus from Oxford to Bedford which takes 2 and a half hours. So it'd be three to Cambridge. I think to be fair every party is against the Oxford Cambridge train locally at least. What a farce they are.

Ian Middleton the Green councillor and perspective MP opposes a solar farm in my consistuency!! Green energy yes, not here though. What a prick he is.

All the parties reject it though. Including YIMBY Starmer's Labour MP candidate.

[I like neeps]

I always find the Green's nimbyism, even on initiatives that will be a net benefit environmentally amusing.

They’re a really bizarre party, seemingly unaware that the fact that there is a difference between something that visually looks green and something that is environmentally friendly

There was a big thing the other day around the fact that they oppose the Oxford - Cambridge railway, instead proposing a double decker bus

I know, saw that. It's such odd behaviour. They are either stupid or they've decided that nimbyism locally is a key vote winner.

That's what is the problem with politics. NIMBYism is a local vote winner for all parties, a national vote winner for the Tories as it has made their base of asset owners much wealthier, and Labour are going to be taking on significant vested interests with their planning reform and locally the MPs will get in the neck. Why their government will fail, it's intellectually dishonest.

*The Greens and Lib Dems are also intellectually dishonest but won't win anything so not really as much of an issue

[Paddington Bear]

I always find the Green's nimbyism, even on initiatives that will be a net benefit environmentally amusing.

They’re a really bizarre party, seemingly unaware that the fact that there is a difference between something that visually looks green and something that is environmentally friendly

There was a big thing the other day around the fact that they oppose the Oxford - Cambridge railway, instead proposing a double decker bus

There is a double decker bus from Oxford to Bedford which takes 2 and a half hours. So it'd be three to Cambridge. I think to be fair every party is against the Oxford Cambridge train locally at least. What a farce they are.

Ian Middleton the Green councillor and perspective MP opposes a solar farm in my consistuency!! Green energy yes, not here though. What a prick he is.

All the parties reject it though. Including YIMBY Starmer's Labour MP candidate.

Greens against solar/wind/rail is an enormous part of their party. They’re essentially just the local NIMBY Lib Dems/Tories for retired boomers who smoked weed 40 years ago.

East West Rail is amusing in so many ways. We have a chance to connect two cities with enormous potential for growth, with horrific traffic issues and transport links between them, as well as reinstating services for villages and towns that have been hollowed out. And it’s been regulated/consulted into the ground, £4bn spent, everyone locally up in arms, all local parties being deliberately obstructive, and there’s a good chance we’ll give up before it gets to Cambridge. An apt example of why we can’t grow our economy.

I’ve said before, but if there was a streamlined planning process and we just got on and built it, it would be open by now and people along the route would say things like:
‘It’s actually not as noisy as I thought’
‘The building was irritating but it was useful when I needed to get to Oxford/Cambridge’
‘My grandson uses it to get to work’
‘I don’t like it, but it can’t be helped now’

[fishfoodie]

They’re a really bizarre party, seemingly unaware that the fact that there is a difference between something that visually looks green and something that is environmentally friendly

There was a big thing the other day around the fact that they oppose the Oxford - Cambridge railway, instead proposing a double decker bus

There is a double decker bus from Oxford to Bedford which takes 2 and a half hours. So it'd be three to Cambridge. I think to be fair every party is against the Oxford Cambridge train locally at least. What a farce they are.

Ian Middleton the Green councillor and perspective MP opposes a solar farm in my consistuency!! Green energy yes, not here though. What a prick he is.

All the parties reject it though. Including YIMBY Starmer's Labour MP candidate.

Greens against solar/wind/rail is an enormous part of their party. They’re essentially just the local NIMBY Lib Dems/Tories for retired boomers who smoked weed 40 years ago.

East West Rail is amusing in so many ways. We have a chance to connect two cities with enormous potential for growth, with horrific traffic issues and transport links between them, as well as reinstating services for villages and towns that have been hollowed out. And it’s been regulated/consulted into the ground, £4bn spent, everyone locally up in arms, all local parties being deliberately obstructive, and there’s a good chance we’ll give up before it gets to Cambridge. An apt example of why we can’t grow our economy.

I’ve said before, but if there was a streamlined planning process and we just got on and built it, it would be open by now and people along the route would say things like:
‘It’s actually not as noisy as I thought’
‘The building was irritating but it was useful when I needed to get to Oxford/Cambridge’
‘My grandson uses it to get to work’
‘I don’t like it, but it can’t be helped now’

Just commission a report to investigate the effect on house prices along the route in a decades time !

I can practically guarantee you it'll say that having the train line nearby will increase the value of all the properties along it, & even more so those within walking distance of stations.

It's the only thing NIMBYs care about, so use it as leverage.

[Paddington Bear]

There is a double decker bus from Oxford to Bedford which takes 2 and a half hours. So it'd be three to Cambridge. I think to be fair every party is against the Oxford Cambridge train locally at least. What a farce they are.

Ian Middleton the Green councillor and perspective MP opposes a solar farm in my consistuency!! Green energy yes, not here though. What a prick he is.

All the parties reject it though. Including YIMBY Starmer's Labour MP candidate.

Greens against solar/wind/rail is an enormous part of their party. They’re essentially just the local NIMBY Lib Dems/Tories for retired boomers who smoked weed 40 years ago.

East West Rail is amusing in so many ways. We have a chance to connect two cities with enormous potential for growth, with horrific traffic issues and transport links between them, as well as reinstating services for villages and towns that have been hollowed out. And it’s been regulated/consulted into the ground, £4bn spent, everyone locally up in arms, all local parties being deliberately obstructive, and there’s a good chance we’ll give up before it gets to Cambridge. An apt example of why we can’t grow our economy.

I’ve said before, but if there was a streamlined planning process and we just got on and built it, it would be open by now and people along the route would say things like:
‘It’s actually not as noisy as I thought’
‘The building was irritating but it was useful when I needed to get to Oxford/Cambridge’
‘My grandson uses it to get to work’
‘I don’t like it, but it can’t be helped now’

Just commission a report to investigate the effect on house prices along the route in a decades time !

I can practically guarantee you it'll say that having the train line nearby will increase the value of all the properties along it, & even more so those within walking distance of stations.

It's the only thing NIMBYs care about, so use it as leverage.

It doesn’t help, they just reject the report as a stitch up and commission their own.

They can’t be reasoned with, so there’s no point. The approach should be ‘sorry this affects you, but its the right call for the area/nation and is going ahead’

[epwc]

They can’t be reasoned with, so there’s no point. The approach should be ‘sorry this affects you, but its the right call for the area/nation and is going ahead’

100%

[Margin__Walker]

Yep. Any sober look at it and the scale of the problem is clear. The country is crying out for infrastructure and housing/housing densification (those same NIMBYs are likely among those whinging about it), but it's just so difficult to get anything built in the current planning landscape.

Every political party is terrified of making any sort of case for it as nimbyism is such a vote winner for local constituencies. You just never solve it and no one addresses the elephant in the room with voters.

Needs someone with a big majority to come in and just get stuff done, but I'm not holding my breath.

[epwc]

I was talking to my brother in law last night, he lives in a village near Chelmsford Race Course, there are "STOP THE PYLONS" posters up everywhere, I asked him where exactly they'd be passing through the village, he said "well they don't, they're in a farmers field way past the end of the village nowhere near any houses"

I wish these people would:

a) go fuck themselves
b) at least use the right pylon design on their posters
c) go fuck themselves again

And I wish the government would tell them to go fuck themselves too.

[Paddington Bear]

Yep. Any sober look at it and the scale of the problem is clear. The country is crying out for infrastructure and housing/housing densification (those same NIMBYs are likely among those whinging about it), but it's just so difficult to get anything built in the current planning landscape.

Every political party is terrified of making any sort of case for it as nimbyism is such a vote winner for local constituencies. You just never solve it and no one addresses the elephant in the room with voters.

Needs someone with a big majority to come in and just get stuff done, but I'm not holding my breath.

We don’t know because no one has tried it, but I’m not convinced NIMBYism as big a vote winner at general elections as people think. It just riles up a section of the electorate who are highly motivated and have lots of time to campaign.

Round me my mates/acquaintances either support or are ambivalent to building some flats in the town, but because we all work for a living we don’t plaster the town/local news/politicians in trays with letters of support.

[Paddington Bear]

I was talking to my brother in law last night, he lives in a village near Chelmsford Race Course, there are "STOP THE PYLONS" posters up everywhere, I asked him where exactly they'd be passing through the village, he said "well they don't, they're in a farmers field way past the end of the village nowhere near any houses"

I wish these people would:

a) go fuck themselves
b) at least use the right pylon design on their posters
c) go fuck themselves again

And I wish the government would tell them to go fuck themselves too.

I share the sentiment but in fairness any development near your house is irritating as it is developed.

So I think the response should be sympathy but no movement. ‘I see how this is frustrating for you, but it’s happening and you need to make your peace with it’ essentially

[Slick]

Greens against solar/wind/rail is an enormous part of their party. They’re essentially just the local NIMBY Lib Dems/Tories for retired boomers who smoked weed 40 years ago.

East West Rail is amusing in so many ways. We have a chance to connect two cities with enormous potential for growth, with horrific traffic issues and transport links between them, as well as reinstating services for villages and towns that have been hollowed out. And it’s been regulated/consulted into the ground, £4bn spent, everyone locally up in arms, all local parties being deliberately obstructive, and there’s a good chance we’ll give up before it gets to Cambridge. An apt example of why we can’t grow our economy.

I’ve said before, but if there was a streamlined planning process and we just got on and built it, it would be open by now and people along the route would say things like:
‘It’s actually not as noisy as I thought’
‘The building was irritating but it was useful when I needed to get to Oxford/Cambridge’
‘My grandson uses it to get to work’
‘I don’t like it, but it can’t be helped now’

Just commission a report to investigate the effect on house prices along the route in a decades time !

I can practically guarantee you it'll say that having the train line nearby will increase the value of all the properties along it, & even more so those within walking distance of stations.

It's the only thing NIMBYs care about, so use it as leverage.

It doesn’t help, they just reject the report as a stitch up and commission their own.

They can’t be reasoned with, so there’s no point. The approach should be ‘sorry this affects you, but its the right call for the area/nation and is going ahead’

Hasn't HS2 rather fucked that plan?

[I like neeps]

Just commission a report to investigate the effect on house prices along the route in a decades time !

I can practically guarantee you it'll say that having the train line nearby will increase the value of all the properties along it, & even more so those within walking distance of stations.

It's the only thing NIMBYs care about, so use it as leverage.

It doesn’t help, they just reject the report as a stitch up and commission their own.

They can’t be reasoned with, so there’s no point. The approach should be ‘sorry this affects you, but its the right call for the area/nation and is going ahead’

Hasn't HS2 rather fucked that plan?

Just because one project has been a failure doesn't mean every project will be so there's no point in them.

[Biffer]

It doesn’t help, they just reject the report as a stitch up and commission their own.

They can’t be reasoned with, so there’s no point. The approach should be ‘sorry this affects you, but its the right call for the area/nation and is going ahead’

Hasn't HS2 rather fucked that plan?

Just because one project has been a failure doesn't mean every project will be so there's no point in them.

Exactly. We have this attitude in the UK that when one project is difficult and over budget we say they all will be. But usually they’re over budget because we were doing it for the first time, so there are a lot of skills to be built and lessons to be learned. If you then don’t do it again, you don’t get the benefit of that sunk cost.

[Slick]

It doesn’t help, they just reject the report as a stitch up and commission their own.

They can’t be reasoned with, so there’s no point. The approach should be ‘sorry this affects you, but its the right call for the area/nation and is going ahead’

Hasn't HS2 rather fucked that plan?

Just because one project has been a failure doesn't mean every project will be so there's no point in them.

Of course not. Just having seen the damage that a shit project can do I can understand folk kicking off. But I broadly agree with your sentiments.

[Margin__Walker]

Nimbyism and planning constraints were responsible for a decent amount of the HS2 overspend iirc. With miles of unplanned tunnels required etc

[Sandstorm]

Theresa May was in our High Street today pressing flesh. Looked ridiculous in a green formal dress and Converse trainers. Weird too that her own constituency she just left is about 40 miles form here......

[Slick]

Nimbyism and planning constraints were responsible for a decent amount of the HS2 overspend iirc. With miles of unplanned tunnels required etc

Good point. Although isn't a bit of a symptom of shite planning that tunnels are unplanned?

[Paddington Bear]

Just commission a report to investigate the effect on house prices along the route in a decades time !

I can practically guarantee you it'll say that having the train line nearby will increase the value of all the properties along it, & even more so those within walking distance of stations.

It's the only thing NIMBYs care about, so use it as leverage.

It doesn’t help, they just reject the report as a stitch up and commission their own.

They can’t be reasoned with, so there’s no point. The approach should be ‘sorry this affects you, but its the right call for the area/nation and is going ahead’

Hasn't HS2 rather fucked that plan?

I’d actually go the other way. The Chilterns Tunnel cost over £1bn I believe to try and appease people round me. It changed no one’s minds. I’ve mentioned before but they’ve also given out millions in local grants, the one that always sticks out is to another local cricket club. They got c.£80k, and in the press release their chairman (you almost certainly played rugby with him) said he opposed HS2!

They’d have been much better off spending the time just building a railway, cut out the faff and it would probably be built by now. People round me are understandably exercised about the building of a massive tunnel portal, but we live next to the M25 anyway. Once it’s built people move on with their lives.

[Margin__Walker]

Nimbyism and planning constraints were responsible for a decent amount of the HS2 overspend iirc. With miles of unplanned tunnels required etc

Good point. Although isn't a bit of a symptom of shite planning that tunnels are unplanned?

I guess so, in terms of foreseeing the level of opposition. But ultimately there wasn't a need to tunnel for the most part from an engineering standpoint. They caved in to pressure groups.

I'm sure in some other countries, they would have been told to suck it up.