NPR

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 11:30 am

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 8:42 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 8:26 am So Morocco are out of pocket but not south africa that bought the pfizer and J&J?

By the time South Africa has jabbed most of its pop, assuming done so with J&J, Pfizer and excess from Europe+NA (Novavax/Moderna/CureVac/Valneva/Sanofi&GSK/etc...) then yes I would say Morocco will be out of pocket for non-funded deliveries (given the prevalence in wide rollout already) whilst South Africa will be materially reliant on funded and donated deliveries. SA's 'buying' element will at the end of the day be effectively (re)funded by Western countries. I reasonably expect that to apply to any other African country that hasn't yet procured material amounts outside of the funded resources.

I don't think I can type it any clearer than that. 'Wait' for free stuff, means you get free stuff. Pay for stuff you won't get refunded for and you will have paid for stuff.

Just seems strange how the South african government was making such a big deal about how they couldn't afford the vaccine, how they negotiated lower prices on the vaccine they bought, and how they managed to get their money back when reselling the AZ vaccine - if the money is all going to be refunded anyway. My understanding is also that South africa, as a middle income country, ended up paying COVAX more for the vaccine than they would have if they bought it directly from the manufacturers. At least this was widely reported in the media here.

In good faith I suggest you reread what I am posting.

I'm not saying that if SA or other countries had moved earlier to procure outside of facilities and donation schemes it wouldn't have paid, I'm saying that this is the current trajectory. A Ramaphosa speech in Jan of "We will get enough vaccines for our population at a significantly discounted and excess donated to point of materially free rate, we just have to wait until North America and Europe is done for this to happen" wouldn't go down very well.

Nor am I saying that protestations about the vaccination rate discrepancy are unfounded. The cost for the third world won't be in the cost of vaccines - it will be in the delay in getting and administering them. That is what needs to be argued, not price per a dose. Making the drugs cheaper for the developing world at the start would have just lead to higher premiums paid by the developed world to grt them sooner.

And even though Ramaphosa was rather disingenuous in saying in Macron's visit that "many African countries would be immediately able to produce vaccines if the west just shared tech", they are at least drumming the right beat.

Slick wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 7:24 am

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:34 am

Slick wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:41 pm Every single report I can see on “vaccine hesitancy” says by far the largest groups are from the BAME communities.

You all know this

But you've commented "Are we not allowed to say Muslim?" The lowest uptake rates are amongst African and Afro-Carribbean people.

You're not dumb, and I'm willing to bet you know damn well that lower uptake rates exist outside of Muslim groups and their demographics within London.

Your comment and subsequent attempt at reasoning is extremely out of place in that context.

Well a significant proportion of those African people are also Muslim and the next 2 significant groups are Pakistani and Bangladeshi, so I don’t think it’s extremely out of place.

It was however a very poor post after a day drinking in the sun with not enough thought behind it

The point I was trying to make is that white people who don’t take the vaccine are all EDL supporting racists who deserve everything they get. But by far the highest proportion of people not taking it are “vaccine hesitant” and we are tip toeing around it, which I don’t think is good for anyone, it’s about actual life of death.

I doubt you care, but I don't find drink an excuse when conveying feelings. And, in my experience, "are we not allowed to do X" is very much an emotionally driven statement.

And similarly I doubt you care, but I'm not convinced by your further attempt at justification. I'm midlly intrigued by your claim that black Muslims make up a significant enough proportion of the black population that enables them to be a driver of the vaccine hesitancy to the point we are able to assert 'Muslims are enough of the problem that by discussing hesitancy in other groups we are tip toeing around the problem and not tackling the substantive one'. Which is what I read from that.

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:21 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 11:30 am

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 8:42 am

By the time South Africa has jabbed most of its pop, assuming done so with J&J, Pfizer and excess from Europe+NA (Novavax/Moderna/CureVac/Valneva/Sanofi&GSK/etc...) then yes I would say Morocco will be out of pocket for non-funded deliveries (given the prevalence in wide rollout already) whilst South Africa will be materially reliant on funded and donated deliveries. SA's 'buying' element will at the end of the day be effectively (re)funded by Western countries. I reasonably expect that to apply to any other African country that hasn't yet procured material amounts outside of the funded resources.

I don't think I can type it any clearer than that. 'Wait' for free stuff, means you get free stuff. Pay for stuff you won't get refunded for and you will have paid for stuff.

Just seems strange how the South african government was making such a big deal about how they couldn't afford the vaccine, how they negotiated lower prices on the vaccine they bought, and how they managed to get their money back when reselling the AZ vaccine - if the money is all going to be refunded anyway. My understanding is also that South africa, as a middle income country, ended up paying COVAX more for the vaccine than they would have if they bought it directly from the manufacturers. At least this was widely reported in the media here.

In good faith I suggest you reread what I am posting.

I'm not saying that if SA or other countries had moved earlier to procure outside of facilities and donation schemes it wouldn't have paid, I'm saying that this is the current trajectory. A Ramaphosa speech in Jan of "We will get enough vaccines for our population at a significantly discounted and excess donated to point of materially free rate, we just have to wait until North America and Europe is done for this to happen" wouldn't go down very well.

Nor am I saying that protestations about the vaccination rate discrepancy are unfounded. The cost for the third world won't be in the cost of vaccines - it will be in the delay in getting and administering them. That is what needs to be argued, not price per a dose. Making the drugs cheaper for the developing world at the start would have just lead to higher premiums paid by the developed world to grt them sooner.

And even though Ramaphosa was rather disingenuous in saying in Macron's visit that "many African countries would be immediately able to produce vaccines if the west just shared tech", they are at least drumming the right beat.

In good faith I suggest you reread what you posted. You initially singled out african countries that ordered the Chinese vaccines, as opposed to those that ordered j an j, Pfizer, astrazeneca, sputnik and moderna, as being "out of pocket".

South africa has already bought enough doses for 40 million people. The issue now is getting them ASAP. The government claims it doesn't need any more doses but it might well benefit from subsidised booster shots at a future date. So might Morroco for that matter.

You're also ignoring the millions of Chinese vaccines already donated to Africa, or China giving away the license and helping set up local manufacturing facilities, the latter at least the case for Egypt. I do realise there might be a hidden financial cost for this down the line, and there certainly is a political cost for these countries accepting Chinese help.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:53 am

Openside wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:49 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:41 am
You must be letter blind

Where is theTypo? (I accept I might be losing the plot)

I thought it was amusing when you first posted it. Now I'm losing the will to live

Doh!!

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:33 am

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:21 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 11:30 am

Just seems strange how the South african government was making such a big deal about how they couldn't afford the vaccine, how they negotiated lower prices on the vaccine they bought, and how they managed to get their money back when reselling the AZ vaccine - if the money is all going to be refunded anyway. My understanding is also that South africa, as a middle income country, ended up paying COVAX more for the vaccine than they would have if they bought it directly from the manufacturers. At least this was widely reported in the media here.

In good faith I suggest you reread what I am posting.

I'm not saying that if SA or other countries had moved earlier to procure outside of facilities and donation schemes it wouldn't have paid, I'm saying that this is the current trajectory. A Ramaphosa speech in Jan of "We will get enough vaccines for our population at a significantly discounted and excess donated to point of materially free rate, we just have to wait until North America and Europe is done for this to happen" wouldn't go down very well.

Nor am I saying that protestations about the vaccination rate discrepancy are unfounded. The cost for the third world won't be in the cost of vaccines - it will be in the delay in getting and administering them. That is what needs to be argued, not price per a dose. Making the drugs cheaper for the developing world at the start would have just lead to higher premiums paid by the developed world to grt them sooner.

And even though Ramaphosa was rather disingenuous in saying in Macron's visit that "many African countries would be immediately able to produce vaccines if the west just shared tech", they are at least drumming the right beat.

In good faith I suggest you reread what you posted. You initially singled out african countries that ordered the Chinese vaccines, as opposed to those that ordered j an j, Pfizer, astrazeneca, sputnik and moderna, as being "out of pocket".

South africa has already bought enough doses for 40 million people. The issue now is getting them ASAP. The government claims it doesn't need any more doses but it might well benefit from subsidised booster shots at a future date. So might Morroco for that matter.

You're also ignoring the millions of Chinese vaccines already donated to Africa, or China giving away the license and helping set up local manufacturing facilities, the latter at least the case for Egypt. I do realise there might be a hidden financial cost for this down the line, and there certainly is a political cost for these countries accepting Chinese help.

This what I posted

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:40 am Between direct cash contributions, discounts from the manufacturers and above all contribution of excess orders by Western countries I'm confident in saying that African countries will by and large not pay anything towards vaccine procurement this year.

Those countries that are left out of pocket will probably be those that took initiative to order Sinovac/Sinopharm.

Took the initiative to order is a million miles away from "as opposed to". I specifically mention those two, as they were and are the only non-Covax ones actually being delivered in material quantities. If others were being ordered, delivered and paid for in any meaningful quantity I would capture them in that list. However only AZ has been delivered in material quantities, through Covax, and where not through it costs a fraction of that paid per Sinopharm/Sinovac dose. And since April that has largely dried up of course. Morocco ordered a chunk of AZ outside of Covax, but has only received a small amount and I sincerely doubt they'll be happy paying for the full order compliment if it only arrives next year - indeed the SII stated it had to sell at premium to private providers in India and lobby for national loans to make up for shortfall of payments from international clients due to non-delivery. I suspect similar will happen to SA - orders will be overtaken by excess donations, cash contributions and discounted facilities to point of materially snuffing out costs.


I don't have "something against the Chinese", but you're welcome to believe that if you ascribe my critiquing of the statement "the Chinese government can be implicitly trusted in all its actions because it wouldn't undertake actions that may harm its international reputation" as evidence of that, which is what I gather you believe from tone of posts. I personally think it's fantastic the Chinese state arm took the option of distributing internationally whilst the pandemic was in control at home - something not undertaken in other countries. Altruistic, probably not, but some vaccines > no vaccines.

Just had my second AZ jab..

No 5g, am dissappoint.

Although 35 meg off Starlink is a bonus.

And my left testicle is quoting passages from Sun Tzus Art of War.

In Danish..

Suddenly hearing about quite a few people getting it now in Edinburgh. Seems to be mainly coming back from schools and nurseries

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:12 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:08 am Out and out racism there.

I'm calling out all small business owners, not just the brown ones. You loon.

Well fuck you then. The proportion of tax dodged by the multinationals dwarves anything you're insinuating.

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:01 pm

Took the initiative to order is a million miles away from "as opposed to". I specifically mention those two, as they were and are the only non-Covax ones actually being delivered in material quantities. If others were being ordered, delivered and paid for in any meaningful quantity I would capture them in that list. However only AZ has been delivered in material quantities, through Covax, and where not through it costs a fraction of that paid per Sinopharm/Sinovac dose. And since April that has largely dried up of course. Morocco ordered a chunk of AZ outside of Covax, but has only received a small amount and I sincerely doubt they'll be happy paying for the full order compliment if it only arrives next year - indeed the SII stated it had to sell at premium to private providers in India and lobby for national loans to make up for shortfall of payments from international clients due to non-delivery. I suspect similar will happen to SA - orders will be overtaken by excess donations, cash contributions and discounted facilities to point of materially snuffing out costs.

Do you have links for these? Genuine question as a brief search didn’t bring up any great websites for me From what I can find it seems that Africa has purchased 33 million doses of Chinese vaccines , mainly by Egypt and Morocco. To put that into context Latin America has purchased 279 million doses of the Chinese vaccine , South Africa has purchased 31 million J & J, 20 million bioNtech and 1.5 million AZ. The latter which it then idiotically resold, probably at a lost, to the African Union. I have no idea how much SA paid for its vaccines except for the AZ ( $5.25 per dose) nor what Morocco and Egypt paid for their Chinese vaccines and how that compares to the cost of the COVAX vaccines they paid for.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:36 pm Suddenly hearing about quite a few people getting it now in Edinburgh. Seems to be mainly coming back from schools and nurseries

Started with Davidson Mains and Gilmerton Primary schools. A few more affected as well, some spread into wider community. 7 day case rate going to go to 170/180 per 100,000 across the city in the next few days, but I think they're confident that's where it'll peak - numbers have levelled off over the last four days (156,166,146,149 on 1-4 June, looks like just over 100 on the 5th) and there's been significant increase in the number of tests in that time as well. Today's figures should give us an idea of direction of travel.

Feels like December again in so far as the government knows its going to have to make an unpopular decision to push back June 21 openings (in England) but lacks the political courage to make the decision until the last possible moment.

Materially I think this wave will be far better because its summer and many people are double vaccinated now but the politics still hasn't moved on.

tc27 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:15 pm Feels like December again in so far as the government knows its going to have to make an unpopular decision to push back June 21 openings (in England) but lacks the political courage to make the decision until the last possible moment.

Materially I think this wave will be far better because its summer and many people are double vaccinated now but the politics still hasn't moved on.

It's not even courage, it's blatantly political. Johnson doesn't want to make a negative announcement in advance of the G7 meeting.

tc27 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:15 pm Feels like December again in so far as the government knows its going to have to make an unpopular decision to push back June 21 openings (in England) but lacks the political courage to make the decision until the last possible moment.

Materially I think this wave will be far better because its summer and many people are double vaccinated now but the politics still hasn't moved on.

I think people have been conditioned to worry about the case numbers, although the connection between those numbers and the number of hospitalisations should be somewhat different with so many of the older cohorts vaccinated.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:06 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:36 pm Suddenly hearing about quite a few people getting it now in Edinburgh. Seems to be mainly coming back from schools and nurseries

Started with Davidson Mains and Gilmerton Primary schools. A few more affected as well, some spread into wider community. 7 day case rate going to go to 170/180 per 100,000 across the city in the next few days, but I think they're confident that's where it'll peak - numbers have levelled off over the last four days (156,166,146,149 on 1-4 June, looks like just over 100 on the 5th) and there's been significant increase in the number of tests in that time as well. Today's figures should give us an idea of direction of travel.

96 for 5th June, looks like roughly the same for the 6th. Bit of luck it'll be a couple more days around there and then start to fall.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:21 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:06 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:36 pm Suddenly hearing about quite a few people getting it now in Edinburgh. Seems to be mainly coming back from schools and nurseries

Started with Davidson Mains and Gilmerton Primary schools. A few more affected as well, some spread into wider community. 7 day case rate going to go to 170/180 per 100,000 across the city in the next few days, but I think they're confident that's where it'll peak - numbers have levelled off over the last four days (156,166,146,149 on 1-4 June, looks like just over 100 on the 5th) and there's been significant increase in the number of tests in that time as well. Today's figures should give us an idea of direction of travel.

96 for 5th June, looks like roughly the same for the 6th. Bit of luck it'll be a couple more days around there and then start to fall.

Good news indeed.

Have to say I've been quite surprised by the number of tourists back in town. Obviously no where near normal but the Royal Mile was fairly packed the other day.

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:32 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:15 pm Feels like December again in so far as the government knows its going to have to make an unpopular decision to push back June 21 openings (in England) but lacks the political courage to make the decision until the last possible moment.

Materially I think this wave will be far better because its summer and many people are double vaccinated now but the politics still hasn't moved on.

I think people have been conditioned to worry about the case numbers, although the connection between those numbers and the number of hospitalisations should be somewhat different with so many of the older cohorts vaccinated.

Personally I'd be happy with a delay of a few weeks.

Seems to make sense to allow time to learn more about the new relationship between cases an hospitalisations/deaths which will take a few more weeks due to the lag between cases and those things.

C T wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:04 pm

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:32 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:15 pm Feels like December again in so far as the government knows its going to have to make an unpopular decision to push back June 21 openings (in England) but lacks the political courage to make the decision until the last possible moment.

Materially I think this wave will be far better because its summer and many people are double vaccinated now but the politics still hasn't moved on.

I think people have been conditioned to worry about the case numbers, although the connection between those numbers and the number of hospitalisations should be somewhat different with so many of the older cohorts vaccinated.

Personally I'd be happy with a delay of a few weeks.

Seems to make sense to allow time to learn more about the new relationship between cases an hospitalisations/deaths which will take a few more weeks due to the lag between cases and those things.

It'll happen. Scientific opinion is pretty much in consensus that there should be a pause to evaluate the impact of the delta variant, but it'll likely only be a couple of weeks. But it won't be announced until after the G7.

I feel like I can do pretty much most things I want at the moment but I am a bit of an antisocial bastard - feel sorry for a couple of acquittances I know trying to get married this year.

tc27 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:07 pm I feel like I can do pretty much most things I want at the moment but I am a bit of an antisocial bastard - feel sorry for a couple of acquittances I know trying to get married this year.

Had this conversation at the weekend when I said it was nice to be back to a bit of normality then realised we are miles away from what was normal 2 years ago.

Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:41 am

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:01 pm

Took the initiative to order is a million miles away from "as opposed to". I specifically mention those two, as they were and are the only non-Covax ones actually being delivered in material quantities. If others were being ordered, delivered and paid for in any meaningful quantity I would capture them in that list. However only AZ has been delivered in material quantities, through Covax, and where not through it costs a fraction of that paid per Sinopharm/Sinovac dose. And since April that has largely dried up of course. Morocco ordered a chunk of AZ outside of Covax, but has only received a small amount and I sincerely doubt they'll be happy paying for the full order compliment if it only arrives next year - indeed the SII stated it had to sell at premium to private providers in India and lobby for national loans to make up for shortfall of payments from international clients due to non-delivery. I suspect similar will happen to SA - orders will be overtaken by excess donations, cash contributions and discounted facilities to point of materially snuffing out costs.

Do you have links for these? Genuine question as a brief search didn’t bring up any great websites for me From what I can find it seems that Africa has purchased 33 million doses of Chinese vaccines , mainly by Egypt and Morocco. To put that into context Latin America has purchased 279 million doses of the Chinese vaccine , South Africa has purchased 31 million J & J, 20 million bioNtech and 1.5 million AZ. The latter which it then idiotically resold, probably at a lost, to the African Union. I have no idea how much SA paid for its vaccines except for the AZ ( $5.25 per dose) nor what Morocco and Egypt paid for their Chinese vaccines and how that compares to the cost of the COVAX vaccines they paid for.

In my mind you've asked me to prepare a spreadsheet, another thing impenitently more preferable to studying.


=]here really aren't that many countries that issue plainly visible summaries of receipts as open data. Easiest thing to do is find the latest statement by health authorities/politicians about what has been received, and then given most of them welcome deliveries with fanfare (the countries that produce seem to have better open data) its fairly simple to work backwards through the delivery announcements if you have the patience/care enough/are bored enough.
Can't see an easy way to share the file, and presume you wouldn't want to open something from internet schmuck x718234108, so hopefully the below is readable. I've pasted the source links further below.

As you'll see, the handbrake on exports enforced on the SII means ordered AZ doses haven't materialised past April, so as ever 'Ordered' neither means delivered, paid for nor even guaranteed to materialise if the ordering party gets enough doses elsewhere (as I'm arguing will happen) and decides to cancel/dispute due to delay. So using raw 'orders' unfortunately isn't (in my opinion) a good gauge of where things stand nor will end up - doses delivered and planned are. It's unclear that Morocco will receive any further (procured) AZ doses if India's export control maintains until end of year and AZ production in Russia with R-Pharm doesn't exceed to help cover (those are the parties Morocco contracted with), so it's only received a small number of its orders vs scaling up Sinopharm supplies. Covax AZ may continue from other sites, as it had with a miniscule delivery from South Korea. I expect Covax deliveries of other vaccines (bar maybe Sinovac or potentially J&J) to be immaterial to Morocco's rollout this year.



Source
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-heal ... SKBN29R1O0
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2021/0 ... rm-vaccine
https://www.reuters.com/world/india/mor ... 021-02-11/
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2021/0 ... a-vaccines
https://www.arabnews.com/node/1832541/middle-east
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2021/0 ... x-vaccines
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2021/0 ... om-beijing
https://northafricapost.com/49891-covid ... doses.html
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2021/0 ... mauritania

As for the price component, as ever we only have what is publicly available for some parties, but using costs charged to the western countries is a reasonable proxy because you can mentally apply whatever discounts or favours govs/companies that may bring down (or raise) the price. Usually the former for developing for PR of course. AZ price usually an aberration because of AZ vs SII contracting, but still cheaper than the rest. As ever, between direct cash donations and excess donations I expect the true cost through Covax and other facilities to really wind down the prices (particularly where contributors bat for 'their' vaccines to be ordered/reimbursed for), but needless to say the more expensive doses will have a harder time coming down as hard.

Sinovac $30 per dose (China domestic) vs $14 Indonesia quoted
Sinopharm $19-36 per dose (per BMJ)
Pfizer $16-20 per dose (per BI & Reuters SA @ $10 a dose)
J&J $8.50-$10 single dose
Moderna $20-25 per dose

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... price-list
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/12/worl ... ook%20page.
https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n912/rr-0
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-heal ... SKBN2BT13M

I won't comment on other regions as I have followed very very little of them, but here is a Mar21 summary of announcements with regards to procurement of the Chinese parastatal vaccines.

https://thediplomat.com/2021/03/the-log ... diplomacy/

tc27 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:07 pm I feel like I can do pretty much most things I want at the moment but I am a bit of an antisocial bastard - feel sorry for a couple of acquittances I know trying to get married this year.

Booked my second table at the pub on Saturday since beginning of May. Going out occasionally still feels like a big treat during Covid.

If I only went out that seldom 2 years ago, you’d assume I was in prison.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:37 pm

C T wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:04 pm

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:32 pm

I think people have been conditioned to worry about the case numbers, although the connection between those numbers and the number of hospitalisations should be somewhat different with so many of the older cohorts vaccinated.

Personally I'd be happy with a delay of a few weeks.

Seems to make sense to allow time to learn more about the new relationship between cases an hospitalisations/deaths which will take a few more weeks due to the lag between cases and those things.

It'll happen. Scientific opinion is pretty much in consensus that there should be a pause to evaluate the impact of the delta variant, but it'll likely only be a couple of weeks. But it won't be announced until after the G7.

There will be a delay until the schools/colleges break up at end of July in England. Whilst the UK Gov won't admit it the schools and colleges are acting as the distribution centres for the Delta variant. It is in the 15 to 24 age groups that we are seeing the significant rise in cases and there are growing reports that is younger age categories ie their parents who are mostly u45s, that are making up the majority of hospital admissions. They will rather take flack for extending the lock down than closing schools etc given all their cock ups in education previously. They would also have to reverse their previous guidance that kids don't need to wear masks etc at schools and that they have failed to invest in ventilation systems, better guidance, etc in schools. They have really fecked up big style with this from the moment they decided not to add India to the Red List so as to help the blonde Bumblecunt have his meeting and trade deal with India - that turned out well! The transmission through schools of the Delta variant is the new care homes scandal!

Scotland schools break up at the end of June so there may be a bit more leeway here to relax a little earlier but Wee Nic will as usual be very prudent about easing lock downs. Not sure when the schools break up in NI and Wales?

Whatever the timing the longer we can hold off until we get more folk fully (2!) vaccinations then the better. Unfortunately it might already be too late to stop the next wave?

So, 8 in 10 UK adults now showing at least some Covid antibodies. Good news, but obviously it doesn't quantify just how much immunity actually exists, and we have no real understanding of the immunity of the whole population.

Finally Going to get lunch at my local café today :D

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:49 am Finally Going to get lunch at my local café today :D

Finally managed a decent restaurant lunch last week. First one since last August.
Have 3 others lined up over the next month providing nothing changes.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:11 am

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:49 am Finally Going to get lunch at my local café today :D

Finally managed a decent restaurant lunch last week. First one since last August.
Have 3 others lined up over the next month providing nothing changes.

They don't have a proper terrace so only opening today.

Numbers of contamination are still falling and vaccinations keep going up. so far so good despite some scare on the delta variant contaminations

Worth a look
Hospitalisation going up as before, it's the younger age group though, not those with 2 doses.

Shoulda closed the airports to save the summer (and domestic hospitality).

A friend who has had two jabs popped in this morning to drop off a parcel. Tried to shake my hand and kiss my wife “because we’ve all had both jabs”

We both told him he was an idiot and should fuck off. And thanks for the parcel.

Established with NHS 119 that for whatever reason my original booking for the end of this week didn't go through the system properly and I've had to re-book for 2 weeks time. Not many free slots around it seems.

First jab and I just want it in me now.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:54 pm Established with NHS 119 that for whatever reason my original booking for the end of this week didn't go through the system properly and I've had to re-book for 2 weeks time. Not many free slots around it seems.

First jab and I just want it in me now.

Try find a drop in centre near you, read below about NHS number.

There isn't because 25 year olds have been invited so over the last 2 days availability has been decimated. A lot of people are having to make significant trips. A lot also want to go on holiday and want to bring it forward. It's not worth the risk, you have to cancel your old appointment to find another, no viewing availability before cancelling. If you've got 2nd in 8-10 weeks you will not improve on that. If you really must visit Lanzarote try and find a drop in centre over 3 weeks after your first, make sure you have your NHS number with you so you're correctly recorded, some people aren't after visiting a drop in Centre, also keep your card as proof. They then need to speak to GP to get records updated and many receptionists are not being helpful or have no idea. Also 119 has no access to more appointments or venues than the NHS site has. And finally if you have a health issue like you've had anaphylaxis, speak to your GP and don't be fobbed off by receptionist, 119 isn't a medical expert line, they can't give you a black and white answer on what you should do, just limited info to help you make a choice, your GP should be helping you. Finally finally if any of you are pregnant, no AZ, just Moderna or Pfizer. And finally...if you've had a positive covid test in the last 28 days you need to wait 28 days before booking, no ifs or buts, and don't go for vaccine if you have symptoms. FFS one last thing, they can't cancel appointments, system will recognise if you've had one at a drop for example and auto cancel, otherwise it just stays on there.

The US will give 500 million Pfizer vaccine doses to poorer countries.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-a ... e_hero_hed

What would be an average number of hospitalisations for flu in a year?

Not trying to make any point, just wondering if 1000 people in hospital for COVID at the moment is comparable to a normal flu year

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:07 pm What would be an average number of hospitalisations for flu in a year?

Not trying to make any point, just wondering if 1000 people in hospital for COVID at the moment is comparable to a normal flu year

Year? Flu is worse. Early June? After significant lockdowns? I doubt flu comes close.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:07 pm What would be an average number of hospitalisations for flu in a year?

Not trying to make any point, just wondering if 1000 people in hospital for COVID at the moment is comparable to a normal flu year

This gives a good indication of the difference between flu and covid last winter

The NHS as a whole is still hurting very badly from Covid even now. Mrs Saint is a District nurse - numbers are still up as hospitals as still discharging early and GPs are still not covering patients that their contracts say they should. At the same time each patient takes approx 50% longer than they would normally as it's all still full PPE - even though every nurse on the team and nearly every patient is double dosed. It takes between 5 and 10 minute to PPE up before entering a patient's house, then between 10 and 15 to PPE down and sanitise before moving on to the next patient. So she and her whole team are working 10-11 hours per day, while overtime pay is disallowed. SO they either take the accumulated overtime as TOIL and don't take leave, or ultimately get it paid through their sessional contracts at just regular salary (not overtime pay)

Funny, when I was unemployed society (through the job centre) told me to go get lots of qualifications, to invest in my education, so off I went and got lots of qualifications, returned a few years later and then they said "congrats you got lots of qualifications, more than me in fact..but you haven't got experience, go get some experience", so out I went and did years of voluntary work, designing complex database systems for many agencies for free..and got great, glowing references.

Then when I returned with both great qualifications, references and experience they had nothing left to say (having said it all really).

So then it was threats " get a job or we will sanction you" ( effectively throw you out on the street and or starve you to death).

I applied for thousands of jobs and lived in absolute daily terror of being sanctioned (having my benefits stopped), but as I had no idea what they wanted from week to week, as they were deliberately vague.., and having never thought I did enough, and as the consequences of being homeless were well terrifying... one day I got so stressed I had a heart attack.

A year later, having recovered, the Jobcentre terrorised me so much again, my Doctor had to put me back in the sick because he was terrified of them giving me another one.
The sick note litterally said "Intense anxiety brought about by the Job Centre".

We genuinely live in a violent hateful society, where state terror is now instigated against law abiding citizens (who just want to do the right thing) daily through the benefits system.

I have seen it, felt it, nearly died from it (twice).

As we come out of lockdown, do not let them tell you people now need "motivating".

It isn't motivating, I was already absolutely completely fully motivated.

The state doesn't motivate people, it litterally terrorises them to complete destruction, because it hates and has self serving contempt for them.

There is a massive difference.

Saint wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:45 pm The NHS as a whole is still hurting very badly from Covid even now. Mrs Saint is a District nurse - numbers are still up as hospitals as still discharging early and GPs are still not covering patients that their contracts say they should. At the same time each patient takes approx 50% longer than they would normally as it's all still full PPE - even though every nurse on the team and nearly every patient is double dosed. It takes between 5 and 10 minute to PPE up before entering a patient's house, then between 10 and 15 to PPE down and sanitise before moving on to the next patient. So she and her whole team are working 10-11 hours per day, while overtime pay is disallowed. SO they either take the accumulated overtime as TOIL and don't take leave, or ultimately get it paid through their sessional contracts at just regular salary (not overtime pay)

Your wife just sounds lazy

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:15 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:07 pm What would be an average number of hospitalisations for flu in a year?

Not trying to make any point, just wondering if 1000 people in hospital for COVID at the moment is comparable to a normal flu year

Year? Flu is worse. Early June? After significant lockdowns? I doubt flu comes close.

Sorry, badly worded.

What I was trying to get at was what is the average number of hopitalisations in an average flu season and how does that compare to where we are with COVID today, ie 1000 people in hospital. There obviously comes a point where we accept a number of hospitalisations and end restrictions. I'm not saying this is now of course, just a hypothetical question.

On another note, I heard that at least 10 hospitality venues shut in Edinburgh yesterday due to infections.