NPR

Jockaline wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:49 pm Kwasi Kwarteng:

Spoiler

Show

Two min silence:

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:33 am

Jockaline wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:49 pm Kwasi Kwarteng:

Spoiler

Show

Two min silence:

Yet another extremely well qualified Old Etonian, promoted because he's known by the PM to be seriously bright.

charltom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:26 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:33 am

Jockaline wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:49 pm Kwasi Kwarteng:

Spoiler

Show

Two min silence:

Yet another extremely well qualified Old Etonian, promoted because he's known by the PM to be seriously bright.

FTFY.

It's amazing how bias can cause people to invent things. Have a quick read of this. He hasn't won all those prizes and scholarships, nor gained Firsts and a doctorate, for nothing:

Kwarteng was born in the London Borough of Waltham Forest, the only child[3] of Alfred K. Kwarteng and Charlotte Boaitey-Kwarteng, who had emigrated from Ghana as students in the 1960s.[4][5] His mother is a barrister[6] and his father an economist in the Commonwealth Secretariat.[5][7]

After starting school at a state primary school, Kwarteng attended Colet Court, an independent preparatory school in London, where he won the Harrow History Prize in 1988.[8] Kwarteng then went to Eton College, where he was a King's Scholar and was awarded the prestigious Newcastle Scholarship prize. He read classics and history at Trinity College, Cambridge, achieving a first in both subjects and twice winning the Browne Medal. He was a member of the team which won University Challenge in 1995 (in the first series after the programme was revived by the BBC in 1994).[5][10] Whilst at Cambridge, he was a member of the University Pitt Club, and has since returned to visit.[11] He attended Harvard University on a Kennedy Scholarship, and then earned a PhD in economic history from the University of Cambridge in 2000.[12]

charltom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:26 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:33 am

Jockaline wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:49 pm Kwasi Kwarteng:

Spoiler

Show

Two min silence:

Yet another extremely well qualified Old Etonian, promoted because he's known by the PM to be seriously bright.

FTFY.

It's amazing how bias can cause people to invent things. Have a quick read of this. He hasn't won all those prizes and scholarships, nor gained Firsts and a doctorate, for nothing:

Kwarteng was born in the London Borough of Waltham Forest, the only child[3] of Alfred K. Kwarteng and Charlotte Boaitey-Kwarteng, who had emigrated from Ghana as students in the 1960s.[4][5] His mother is a barrister[6] and his father an economist in the Commonwealth Secretariat.[5][7]

After starting school at a state primary school, Kwarteng attended Colet Court, an independent preparatory school in London, where he won the Harrow History Prize in 1988.[8] Kwarteng then went to Eton College, where he was a King's Scholar and was awarded the prestigious Newcastle Scholarship prize. He read classics and history at Trinity College, Cambridge, achieving a first in both subjects and twice winning the Browne Medal. He was a member of the team which won University Challenge in 1995 (in the first series after the programme was revived by the BBC in 1994).[5][10] Whilst at Cambridge, he was a member of the University Pitt Club, and has since returned to visit.[11] He attended Harvard University on a Kennedy Scholarship, and then earned a PhD in economic history from the University of Cambridge in 2000.[12]

charltom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:26 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:33 am

Jockaline wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:49 pm Kwasi Kwarteng:

Spoiler

Show

Two min silence:

Yet another extremely well qualified Old Etonian, promoted because he's known by the PM to be seriously bright.

FTFY.

It's amazing how bias can cause people to invent things. Have a quick read of this. He hasn't won all those prizes and scholarships, nor gained Firsts and a doctorate, for nothing:

Kwarteng was born in the London Borough of Waltham Forest, the only child[3] of Alfred K. Kwarteng and Charlotte Boaitey-Kwarteng, who had emigrated from Ghana as students in the 1960s.[4][5] His mother is a barrister[6] and his father an economist in the Commonwealth Secretariat.[5][7]

After starting school at a state primary school, Kwarteng attended Colet Court, an independent preparatory school in London, where he won the Harrow History Prize in 1988.[8] Kwarteng then went to Eton College, where he was a King's Scholar and was awarded the prestigious Newcastle Scholarship prize. He read classics and history at Trinity College, Cambridge, achieving a first in both subjects and twice winning the Browne Medal. He was a member of the team which won University Challenge in 1995 (in the first series after the programme was revived by the BBC in 1994).[5][10] Whilst at Cambridge, he was a member of the University Pitt Club, and has since returned to visit.[11] He attended Harvard University on a Kennedy Scholarship, and then earned a PhD in economic history from the University of Cambridge in 2000.[12]

charltom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:26 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:33 am

Jockaline wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:49 pm Kwasi Kwarteng:

Spoiler

Show

Two min silence:

Yet another extremely well qualified Old Etonian, promoted because he's known by the PM to be seriously bright.

FTFY.

It's amazing how bias can cause people to invent things. Have a quick read of this. He hasn't won all those prizes and scholarships, nor gained Firsts and a doctorate, for nothing:

Kwarteng was born in the London Borough of Waltham Forest, the only child[3] of Alfred K. Kwarteng and Charlotte Boaitey-Kwarteng, who had emigrated from Ghana as students in the 1960s.[4][5] His mother is a barrister[6] and his father an economist in the Commonwealth Secretariat.[5][7]

After starting school at a state primary school, Kwarteng attended Colet Court, an independent preparatory school in London, where he won the Harrow History Prize in 1988.[8] Kwarteng then went to Eton College, where he was a King's Scholar and was awarded the prestigious Newcastle Scholarship prize. He read classics and history at Trinity College, Cambridge, achieving a first in both subjects and twice winning the Browne Medal. He was a member of the team which won University Challenge in 1995 (in the first series after the programme was revived by the BBC in 1994).[5][10] Whilst at Cambridge, he was a member of the University Pitt Club, and has since returned to visit.[11] He attended Harvard University on a Kennedy Scholarship, and then earned a PhD in economic history from the University of Cambridge in 2000.[12]

ia801310 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:29 pm I know this is Canada but Woke nonsense like this is why Right Wing parties are on the ascendancy, if I was a centre left politician I would despair as I know I am getting tarred with the same brush.

Pure voter repellent

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... easts.html

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:54 am

charltom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:26 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:33 am
Yet another extremely well qualified Old Etonian, promoted because he's known by the PM to be seriously bright.

FTFY.

It's amazing how bias can cause people to invent things. Have a quick read of this. He hasn't won all those prizes and scholarships, nor gained Firsts and a doctorate, for nothing:

Kwarteng was born in the London Borough of Waltham Forest, the only child[3] of Alfred K. Kwarteng and Charlotte Boaitey-Kwarteng, who had emigrated from Ghana as students in the 1960s.[4][5] His mother is a barrister[6] and his father an economist in the Commonwealth Secretariat.[5][7]

After starting school at a state primary school, Kwarteng attended Colet Court, an independent preparatory school in London, where he won the Harrow History Prize in 1988.[8] Kwarteng then went to Eton College, where he was a King's Scholar and was awarded the prestigious Newcastle Scholarship prize. He read classics and history at Trinity College, Cambridge, achieving a first in both subjects and twice winning the Browne Medal. He was a member of the team which won University Challenge in 1995 (in the first series after the programme was revived by the BBC in 1994).[5][10] Whilst at Cambridge, he was a member of the University Pitt Club, and has since returned to visit.[11] He attended Harvard University on a Kennedy Scholarship, and then earned a PhD in economic history from the University of Cambridge in 2000.[12]

Phew, thank goodness for all that. Should be a cakewalk for him, especially having been on the winning team on University Challenge!!
Doesn't make him anly less an entitled, self-important Old Etonian who but one happens to be able to pass exams.
Our last PM could do that and look how that turned out

Britain’s Truss doesn’t expect UK-US trade deal anytime soon

NEW YORK (AP) — Prime Minister Liz Truss has kicked off her first visit to the United States as Britain’s leader with an admission that a U.K-U.S. free trade deal is not going to happen for years.

Truss said a trans-Atlantic deal is not one of her priorities — a sharp contrast with the stance of her immediate predecessors as Conservative prime minister, Boris Johnson and Theresa May. Both dangled the promise of a deal with the world’s biggest economy as one of the main prizes of Britain’s exit from the European Union.

“There (aren’t) currently any negotiations taking place with the U.S., and I don’t have an expectation that those are going to start in the short to medium term,” Truss told reporters aboard her plane to New York, where she landed Tuesday to attend the United Nations General Assembly.

Truss said she was more focused on obtaining accession to the Trans-Pacific trade partnership and striking trade deals with India and the Gulf Cooperation Council of states including Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

“Those are our trade priorities,” she said.

Truss’s downbeat assessment about trans-Atlantic trade came ahead of her first one-on-one meeting with President Joe Biden since she took office two weeks ago. The two leaders are due to meet Wednesday on the sidelines of the U.N. gathering in New York. Both were among scores of world leaders who attended the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II in London on Monday.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:59 am
It isn't. Every single piece of polling in trans issues shows the majority of the public don't care. Some like Andy Ngo try to make a career from it, talentless lickspittle that he is. Right wing papers love a moral panic every once in a while and have a different one every few years, and some twitter users go utterly unhinged.

You can see how little people care as the Tories have been attacking Keir on this for ages and the public collectively shrugs.

charltom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:26 am

Spoiler

Show

FTFY.

It's amazing how bias can cause people to invent things. Have a quick read of this. He hasn't won all those prizes and scholarships, nor gained Firsts and a doctorate, for nothing:

Kwarteng was born in the London Borough of Waltham Forest, the only child[3] of Alfred K. Kwarteng and Charlotte Boaitey-Kwarteng, who had emigrated from Ghana as students in the 1960s.[4][5] His mother is a barrister[6] and his father an economist in the Commonwealth Secretariat.[5][7]

After starting school at a state primary school, Kwarteng attended Colet Court, an independent preparatory school in London, where he won the Harrow History Prize in 1988.[8] Kwarteng then went to Eton College, where he was a King's Scholar and was awarded the prestigious Newcastle Scholarship prize. He read classics and history at Trinity College, Cambridge, achieving a first in both subjects and twice winning the Browne Medal. He was a member of the team which won University Challenge in 1995 (in the first series after the programme was revived by the BBC in 1994).[5][10] Whilst at Cambridge, he was a member of the University Pitt Club, and has since returned to visit.[11] He attended Harvard University on a Kennedy Scholarship, and then earned a PhD in economic history from the University of Cambridge in 2000.[12]

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:19 am FTA with US apparently now not a priority

Britain’s Truss doesn’t expect UK-US trade deal anytime soon

NEW YORK (AP) — Prime Minister Liz Truss has kicked off her first visit to the United States as Britain’s leader with an admission that a U.K-U.S. free trade deal is not going to happen for years.

Truss said a trans-Atlantic deal is not one of her priorities — a sharp contrast with the stance of her immediate predecessors as Conservative prime minister, Boris Johnson and Theresa May. Both dangled the promise of a deal with the world’s biggest economy as one of the main prizes of Britain’s exit from the European Union.

“There (aren’t) currently any negotiations taking place with the U.S., and I don’t have an expectation that those are going to start in the short to medium term,” Truss told reporters aboard her plane to New York, where she landed Tuesday to attend the United Nations General Assembly.

Truss said she was more focused on obtaining accession to the Trans-Pacific trade partnership and striking trade deals with India and the Gulf Cooperation Council of states including Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

“Those are our trade priorities,” she said.

Truss’s downbeat assessment about trans-Atlantic trade came ahead of her first one-on-one meeting with President Joe Biden since she took office two weeks ago. The two leaders are due to meet Wednesday on the sidelines of the U.N. gathering in New York. Both were among scores of world leaders who attended the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II in London on Monday.

Camroc2 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:32 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:19 am FTA with US apparently now not a priority

Britain’s Truss doesn’t expect UK-US trade deal anytime soon

NEW YORK (AP) — Prime Minister Liz Truss has kicked off her first visit to the United States as Britain’s leader with an admission that a U.K-U.S. free trade deal is not going to happen for years.

Truss said a trans-Atlantic deal is not one of her priorities — a sharp contrast with the stance of her immediate predecessors as Conservative prime minister, Boris Johnson and Theresa May. Both dangled the promise of a deal with the world’s biggest economy as one of the main prizes of Britain’s exit from the European Union.

“There (aren’t) currently any negotiations taking place with the U.S., and I don’t have an expectation that those are going to start in the short to medium term,” Truss told reporters aboard her plane to New York, where she landed Tuesday to attend the United Nations General Assembly.

Truss said she was more focused on obtaining accession to the Trans-Pacific trade partnership and striking trade deals with India and the Gulf Cooperation Council of states including Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

“Those are our trade priorities,” she said.

Truss’s downbeat assessment about trans-Atlantic trade came ahead of her first one-on-one meeting with President Joe Biden since she took office two weeks ago. The two leaders are due to meet Wednesday on the sidelines of the U.N. gathering in New York. Both were among scores of world leaders who attended the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II in London on Monday.

Am I missing something here ?

The US won't do a trade deal with the UK because of UK's fúcking around with the NIP and GFA. Yet Truss somehow expects this same US will just let the UK join the T-P trade partnership, when the UK is still fúcking about with the NIP and GFA, and does not actually border the Pacific Ocean.

This is surely more unicorn territory ?

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:59 am
It isn't. Every single piece of polling in trans issues shows the majority of the public don't care. Some like Andy Ngo try to make a career from it, talentless lickspittle that he is. Right wing papers love a moral panic every once in a while and have a different one every few years, and some twitter users go utterly unhinged.

You can see how little people care as the Tories have been attacking Keir on this for ages and the public collectively shrugs.

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:59 am
It isn't. Every single piece of polling in trans issues shows the majority of the public don't care. Some like Andy Ngo try to make a career from it, talentless lickspittle that he is. Right wing papers love a moral panic every once in a while and have a different one every few years, and some twitter users go utterly unhinged.

You can see how little people care as the Tories have been attacking Keir on this for ages and the public collectively shrugs.

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:19 am FTA with US apparently now not a priority

Britain’s Truss doesn’t expect UK-US trade deal anytime soon

NEW YORK (AP) — Prime Minister Liz Truss has kicked off her first visit to the United States as Britain’s leader with an admission that a U.K-U.S. free trade deal is not going to happen for years.

Truss said a trans-Atlantic deal is not one of her priorities — a sharp contrast with the stance of her immediate predecessors as Conservative prime minister, Boris Johnson and Theresa May. Both dangled the promise of a deal with the world’s biggest economy as one of the main prizes of Britain’s exit from the European Union.

“There (aren’t) currently any negotiations taking place with the U.S., and I don’t have an expectation that those are going to start in the short to medium term,” Truss told reporters aboard her plane to New York, where she landed Tuesday to attend the United Nations General Assembly.

Truss said she was more focused on obtaining accession to the Trans-Pacific trade partnership and striking trade deals with India and the Gulf Cooperation Council of states including Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

“Those are our trade priorities,” she said.

Truss’s downbeat assessment about trans-Atlantic trade came ahead of her first one-on-one meeting with President Joe Biden since she took office two weeks ago. The two leaders are due to meet Wednesday on the sidelines of the U.N. gathering in New York. Both were among scores of world leaders who attended the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II in London on Monday.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:44 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:59 am
It isn't. Every single piece of polling in trans issues shows the majority of the public don't care. Some like Andy Ngo try to make a career from it, talentless lickspittle that he is. Right wing papers love a moral panic every once in a while and have a different one every few years, and some twitter users go utterly unhinged.

You can see how little people care as the Tories have been attacking Keir on this for ages and the public collectively shrugs.

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

There's also degrees to this. Very few people have a problem with a man identifying and presenting as a woman. Whatever is going on in that photo? Probably more so.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:14 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:20 pm Boris the fucking twunt.

Getting stopped for not following the the correct order and then sulking like the spoilt twat that he is.



but of course he'd have to do something to get the spotlight on him.

You can tell he was planning to dump himself into the front row seats where Major, Blair and Brown were seated.

petej wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:59 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:44 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

There's also degrees to this. Very few people have a problem with a man identifying and presenting as a woman. Whatever is going on in that photo? Probably more so.

Pre Internet such things would never have got further than about local news (or at best eurotrash dubbed with a brummie accent) rather than international news.

Lobby wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:01 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:14 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:20 pm Boris the fucking twunt.

Getting stopped for not following the the correct order and then sulking like the spoilt twat that he is.



but of course he'd have to do something to get the spotlight on him.

You can tell he was planning to dump himself into the front row seats where Major, Blair and Brown were seated.

I can't help feeling there is a considerable amount of confirmation bias in these comments, and the IH's Twitter link is, as usual, bullshit.

If you watch the video footage in the tweet, there is no sign of Boris barging in front of May, and as Johnson, May and Cameron are all in the wrong order, if Johnson barged in front of May, then she must also have barged in front of Cameron. The stewards don't just stop Boris, but also stop May and Cameron as well. The most likely explanation from the video footage is that all three of them have been delivered to the Abbey in the wrong order, and the stewards stop all three parties in order to sort them out before they get to their places. Boris's petulant face like a smacked-arse could equally be interpreted as him trying to look sombre.

I'm usually prepared to think the worst of Johnson in almost every case, but there seems to be very little evidence here to support the interpretation being placed on it.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:42 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:59 am
It isn't. Every single piece of polling in trans issues shows the majority of the public don't care. Some like Andy Ngo try to make a career from it, talentless lickspittle that he is. Right wing papers love a moral panic every once in a while and have a different one every few years, and some twitter users go utterly unhinged.

You can see how little people care as the Tories have been attacking Keir on this for ages and the public collectively shrugs.

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

What a TERF!

I've tried having that discussion with some people I know and it really divides everyone. I understand trans women wanting to be accepted for what they view themselves as, but I also understand cis women who feel their lived experience is distinct and different. In more ways than I can be bothered to list people are treated by others in a gendered way and that can't really be ignored. The most depressing point made by a friend was that growing up as a girl/young woman in a world where you're dog whistled and perved on by men of all ages, often while disturbingly young, is a formative experience someone who spent similar years presenting as a male simply cannot know.


iul's catchy news story from Canada is the sort of thing that if you bring it to the attention of most people they'll tut and say it's ridiculous or whatever, but it's a silly outlier and most won't give it much thought beyond that. Try as they might, the Tories will not be able to get people to focus on their attempts to propel trans issues into the forefront of discourse until they do something substantial to allay the cost of living crisis and give people the level of socio-economic comfort that means they can focus on matters which are more trivial to them.

Jockaline wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:21 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:42 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

What a TERF!

I've tried having that discussion with some people I know and it really divides everyone. I understand trans women wanting to be accepted for what they view themselves as, but I also understand cis women who feel their lived experience is distinct and different. In more ways than I can be bothered to list people are treated by others in a gendered way and that can't really be ignored. The most depressing point made by a friend was that growing up as a girl/young woman in a world where you're dog whistled and perved on by men of all ages, often while disturbingly young, is a formative experience someone who spent similar years presenting as a male simply cannot know.


iul's catchy news story from Canada is the sort of thing that if you bring it to the attention of most people they'll tut and say it's ridiculous or whatever, but it's a silly outlier and most won't give it much thought beyond that. Try as they might, the Tories will not be able to get people to focus on their attempts to propel trans issues into the forefront of discourse until they do something substantial to allay the cost of living crisis and give people the level of socio-economic comfort that means they can focus on matters which are more trivial to them.

I'm a TERF too, well if JKR is I must be, and I deeply object to be labelled 'cis'. There is no need for the term, trans women are a subset of women , just as man is used as a catch-all at times for all adults. I don't see why women should be forced to re-define themselves. I am heartened that the conversation has become more nuanced and pragmatic lately. Sporting bodies have acknowledge the potential of unfairness in the of adult transitioned males competing in women's professional sport and the masochistic language and cancel culture seems to be abating a bit from a movement that seems to be have been infiltrated by some very unsavoury characters.

I have no issue with unisex loos, and sharing space with a trans women (that has made the effort to fit in), and calling someone by their preferred pronoun. If I came across a trans women, I'd respect their choice and treat them with respect, kindness, and understanding, assuming the favour returned. Violence and harassments of anyone is a crime, and the trans community should be protected and supported to ensure their safety.

Stammer should stay well clear of the topic and leave it let others at a community level lead the way. A top down approach can only lead to division, and it should be anywhere near his priorities.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:35 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:59 am
It isn't. Every single piece of polling in trans issues shows the majority of the public don't care. Some like Andy Ngo try to make a career from it, talentless lickspittle that he is. Right wing papers love a moral panic every once in a while and have a different one every few years, and some twitter users go utterly unhinged.

You can see how little people care as the Tories have been attacking Keir on this for ages and the public collectively shrugs.

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

It is a nonsense to say people don't care. It's wildly devisive

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:59 am
It isn't. Every single piece of polling in trans issues shows the majority of the public don't care. Some like Andy Ngo try to make a career from it, talentless lickspittle that he is. Right wing papers love a moral panic every once in a while and have a different one every few years, and some twitter users go utterly unhinged.

You can see how little people care as the Tories have been attacking Keir on this for ages and the public collectively shrugs.

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:58 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:59 am
It isn't. Every single piece of polling in trans issues shows the majority of the public don't care. Some like Andy Ngo try to make a career from it, talentless lickspittle that he is. Right wing papers love a moral panic every once in a while and have a different one every few years, and some twitter users go utterly unhinged.

You can see how little people care as the Tories have been attacking Keir on this for ages and the public collectively shrugs.

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

Will the issue cause her to change her voting behaviour?

Jockaline wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:21 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:42 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

What a TERF!

I've tried having that discussion with some people I know and it really divides everyone. I understand trans women wanting to be accepted for what they view themselves as, but I also understand cis women who feel their lived experience is distinct and different. In more ways than I can be bothered to list people are treated by others in a gendered way and that can't really be ignored. The most depressing point made by a friend was that growing up as a girl/young woman in a world where you're dog whistled and perved on by men of all ages, often while disturbingly young, is a formative experience someone who spent similar years presenting as a male simply cannot know.


iul's catchy news story from Canada is the sort of thing that if you bring it to the attention of most people they'll tut and say it's ridiculous or whatever, but it's a silly outlier and most won't give it much thought beyond that. Try as they might, the Tories will not be able to get people to focus on their attempts to propel trans issues into the forefront of discourse until they do something substantial to allay the cost of living crisis and give people the level of socio-economic comfort that means they can focus on matters which are more trivial to them.

I'm a TERF too, well if JKR is I must be, and I deeply object to be labelled 'cis'. There is no need for the term, trans women are a subset of women , just as man is used as a catch-all at times for all adults. I don't see why women should be forced to re-define themselves. I am heartened that the conversation has become more nuanced and pragmatic lately. Sporting bodies have acknowledge the potential of unfairness in the of adult transitioned males competing in women's professional sport and the masochistic language and cancel culture seems to be abating a bit from a movement that seems to be have been infiltrated by some very unsavoury characters.

I have no issue with unisex loos, and sharing space with a trans women (that has made the effort to fit in), and calling someone by their preferred pronoun. If I came across a trans women, I'd respect their choice and treat them with respect, kindness, and understanding, assuming the favour returned. Violence and harassments of anyone is a crime, and the trans community should be protected and supported to ensure their safety.

Stammer should stay well clear of the topic and leave it let others at a community level lead the way. A top down approach can only lead to division, and it should be anywhere near his priorities.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:37 am

Jockaline wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:21 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:42 am

What a TERF!

I've tried having that discussion with some people I know and it really divides everyone. I understand trans women wanting to be accepted for what they view themselves as, but I also understand cis women who feel their lived experience is distinct and different. In more ways than I can be bothered to list people are treated by others in a gendered way and that can't really be ignored. The most depressing point made by a friend was that growing up as a girl/young woman in a world where you're dog whistled and perved on by men of all ages, often while disturbingly young, is a formative experience someone who spent similar years presenting as a male simply cannot know.


iul's catchy news story from Canada is the sort of thing that if you bring it to the attention of most people they'll tut and say it's ridiculous or whatever, but it's a silly outlier and most won't give it much thought beyond that. Try as they might, the Tories will not be able to get people to focus on their attempts to propel trans issues into the forefront of discourse until they do something substantial to allay the cost of living crisis and give people the level of socio-economic comfort that means they can focus on matters which are more trivial to them.

I'm a TERF too, well if JKR is I must be, and I deeply object to be labelled 'cis'. There is no need for the term, trans women are a subset of women , just as man is used as a catch-all at times for all adults. I don't see why women should be forced to re-define themselves. I am heartened that the conversation has become more nuanced and pragmatic lately. Sporting bodies have acknowledge the potential of unfairness in the of adult transitioned males competing in women's professional sport and the masochistic language and cancel culture seems to be abating a bit from a movement that seems to be have been infiltrated by some very unsavoury characters.

I have no issue with unisex loos, and sharing space with a trans women (that has made the effort to fit in), and calling someone by their preferred pronoun. If I came across a trans women, I'd respect their choice and treat them with respect, kindness, and understanding, assuming the favour returned. Violence and harassments of anyone is a crime, and the trans community should be protected and supported to ensure their safety.

Stammer should stay well clear of the topic and leave it let others at a community level lead the way. A top down approach can only lead to division, and it should be anywhere near his priorities.

Personally, I generally take the view on trans issues that as I'm a straight white middle aged man, mine is the last opinion they need to hear. My only observation is that a substantial amount of the accusations and campaigning around it sounds very similar to what was thrown around about gay men in the 70s and 80s. In fact every minority / disenfrachised group campaigning for their rights has had the 'sexual deviant' thing thrown at them - gay men and women, black people in the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s, suffragettes in the early part of the 20th century.

ia801310 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:03 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:58 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:20 am

I don't think it's an over-riding issue, and it's definitely not something left-of-centre blokes care about, but my wife, who is generally super liberal, gets genuinely angry about the whole 'trans women are real women' thing.

Will the issue cause her to change her voting behaviour?

By itself I don't think it will, it is part of a wider pattern of intolerant authoritarian behaviour of the progressive left. They assume that they are on the side of the Angels on social/cultural issues and therefore anybody who disagrees with them on any issue is automatically a fascist/racist/Terf etc and therefore there to be abused rather than debated with.

The public can see that the progressive left does not tolerate diversity of opinion on social/cultural issues, that will change voting behaviour, just look at the 2019 election.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:37 am
Personally, I generally take the view on trans issues that as I'm a straight white middle aged man, mine is the last opinion they need to hear.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:23 pm

ia801310 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:03 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:58 am

Will the issue cause her to change her voting behaviour?

By itself I don't think it will, it is part of a wider pattern of intolerant authoritarian behaviour of the progressive left. They assume that they are on the side of the Angels on social/cultural issues and therefore anybody who disagrees with them on any issue is automatically a fascist/racist/Terf etc and therefore there to be abused rather than debated with.

The public can see that the progressive left does not tolerate diversity of opinion on social/cultural issues, that will change voting behaviour, just look at the 2019 election.

Pure supposition I'm afraid.

2019 was brexit, Corbyn's social positions had been well known in 2017 and whilst he lost the election and a fair amount of people hated him he didn't do all that badly compared to previous Labour leaders. Next election will come down to the economy and the NHS as both are farked and that actually affects people rather than this new moral panic which affects pretty much nobody.

Outside of the column pages of The Times and headlines of the Daily Mail the illiberal left have really no bearing on society. I'd be extremely surprised if anyone had any actual story of dealing with a trans person. I've never met one and I live in one of the most cloying liberal cities in the UK.

charltom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:15 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:23 pm

ia801310 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:03 am

By itself I don't think it will, it is part of a wider pattern of intolerant authoritarian behaviour of the progressive left. They assume that they are on the side of the Angels on social/cultural issues and therefore anybody who disagrees with them on any issue is automatically a fascist/racist/Terf etc and therefore there to be abused rather than debated with.

The public can see that the progressive left does not tolerate diversity of opinion on social/cultural issues, that will change voting behaviour, just look at the 2019 election.

Pure supposition I'm afraid.

2019 was brexit, Corbyn's social positions had been well known in 2017 and whilst he lost the election and a fair amount of people hated him he didn't do all that badly compared to previous Labour leaders. Next election will come down to the economy and the NHS as both are farked and that actually affects people rather than this new moral panic which affects pretty much nobody.

Outside of the column pages of The Times and headlines of the Daily Mail the illiberal left have really no bearing on society. I'd be extremely surprised if anyone had any actual story of dealing with a trans person. I've never met one and I live in one of the most cloying liberal cities in the UK.

Seriously?

I've known, in person, two who have transitioned while at school, in different counties and one while at university. I'm fairly sure I've met several others, and may well have met many others but how would I know?

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:53 pm Friend or foe?

Jockaline wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:15 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:37 am

Jockaline wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:21 am

I'm a TERF too, well if JKR is I must be, and I deeply object to be labelled 'cis'. There is no need for the term, trans women are a subset of women , just as man is used as a catch-all at times for all adults. I don't see why women should be forced to re-define themselves. I am heartened that the conversation has become more nuanced and pragmatic lately. Sporting bodies have acknowledge the potential of unfairness in the of adult transitioned males competing in women's professional sport and the masochistic language and cancel culture seems to be abating a bit from a movement that seems to be have been infiltrated by some very unsavoury characters.

I have no issue with unisex loos, and sharing space with a trans women (that has made the effort to fit in), and calling someone by their preferred pronoun. If I came across a trans women, I'd respect their choice and treat them with respect, kindness, and understanding, assuming the favour returned. Violence and harassments of anyone is a crime, and the trans community should be protected and supported to ensure their safety.

Stammer should stay well clear of the topic and leave it let others at a community level lead the way. A top down approach can only lead to division, and it should be anywhere near his priorities.

Personally, I generally take the view on trans issues that as I'm a straight white middle aged man, mine is the last opinion they need to hear. My only observation is that a substantial amount of the accusations and campaigning around it sounds very similar to what was thrown around about gay men in the 70s and 80s. In fact every minority / disenfrachised group campaigning for their rights has had the 'sexual deviant' thing thrown at them - gay men and women, black people in the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s, suffragettes in the early part of the 20th century.

I think this is a bit different, some in the gay community feel some of the 'trans' idealists are openly homophobic and trying to rolling back some of their hard fought identity acceptance. Allowing people to being who they are without harassments nobody should object to, but forcing an ideology on others , undermining their sense of who they are is quite different. There is also the black hooded brigade which seem more like incels rather people genuinely concerned for the trans gender community. Hopefully Stammer doesn't allow it to be a thing, as it could easily go from a side issue no one takes an interest in to one that alienates large sections of the population. I do trust him though..