NPR

robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:17 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:28 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:07 am

I think this will be the one where Dempsey starts. Crosbie is a pretty good bench option though as he can play across the back row.

Yeah, I expect it to be Ritchie, Fagerson and Dempsey to start, and I'll be disappointed if Crosbie doesn't get the bench slot, he's been terrific in recent weeks for Embra.

I really don't want him to move, but he needs to play more, he's 25 now and it's difficult to see where his starts are coming from when Ritchie, Watson and Mata are the first choice and Haining and Muncaster are also there for when you need a bit of biff from the bench. Boyle is another who needs time on the park, he was ahead of Darge when they were in the 20s - ahead/neck and neck, it makes no difference.
Rudi Brown is coming up on the rails too, although he still only 18.

You say this, but he has actually played more for Edinburgh in recent seasons than all of Ritchie, Watson and Mata. Even if he's not in the first choice back row, he's next off the rank and that gives him a lot of game time.

Yeah, Mata exploded his knee, both acl and mcl, requiring "a complete rebuild" as the club put it. He was out for nine months, he's had previous periods of 6 weeks out, but that was major.
Ritchie picked a hamstring injury in the 6N and didn't play again until this season, he only really played during last October, before picking up a less severe knock. Watson was the same, he had several injuries including a broken hand.

It's always been my counter to the argument that we are log-jamming players in the backrow, Haining also picked up knocks, as did Darge when he was with us, Boyle has been injured recently. We need depth.

I haven't seen much of Saracens this season, but if Christie has been picked on form over Crosbie, he must be setting the place on fire

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:27 pm

robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:17 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:28 am


Yeah, I expect it to be Ritchie, Fagerson and Dempsey to start, and I'll be disappointed if Crosbie doesn't get the bench slot, he's been terrific in recent weeks for Embra.

I really don't want him to move, but he needs to play more, he's 25 now and it's difficult to see where his starts are coming from when Ritchie, Watson and Mata are the first choice and Haining and Muncaster are also there for when you need a bit of biff from the bench. Boyle is another who needs time on the park, he was ahead of Darge when they were in the 20s - ahead/neck and neck, it makes no difference.
Rudi Brown is coming up on the rails too, although he still only 18.

You say this, but he has actually played more for Edinburgh in recent seasons than all of Ritchie, Watson and Mata. Even if he's not in the first choice back row, he's next off the rank and that gives him a lot of game time.

Yeah, Mata exploded his knee, both acl and mcl, requiring "a complete rebuild" as the club put it. He was out for nine months, he's had previous periods of 6 weeks out, but that was major.
Ritchie picked a hamstring injury in the 6N and didn't play again until this season, he only really played during last October, before picking up a less severe knock. Watson was the same, he had several injuries including a broken hand.

It's always been my counter to the argument that we are log-jamming players in the backrow, Haining also picked up knocks, as did Darge when he was with us, Boyle has been injured recently. We need depth.

I haven't seen much of Saracens this season, but if Christie has been picked on form over Crosbie, he must be setting the place on fire

Christie is usually on the bench for Sarries although in his defence you could make an argument McFarland, Earl and Vunipola are the best players in their position in the prem.

If anyone goes south from Edinburgh, it’ll be a lock.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:30 pm If anyone goes south from Edinburgh, it’ll be a lock.

I thinks Neeps' point about the market drying up in England is a fair one, lock depth at Embra is good, but it is what it has to be, there are no passengers and we can replace injuries and international duty players with similar quality, Phillips would be the one who might not be on the "must retain" list - especially with Jamie Campbell coming up from the academy, but I'd be loathed to let him go just yet.

If we seriously want to compete with Leinster et al, we have to match their depth

John Barclay used to frighten the bejesus out of Hoggy like this, now the hunted becomes the hunter

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:24 pm John Barclay used to frighten the bejesus out of Hoggy like this, now the hunted becomes the hunter

Good to see the tradition continuing!

Watched the game this morning and for a non event after the red card it was quite entertaining in the end. Tuipolotu was good. Enjoyable amount of real niggle.

Probably about a par autumn, disappointed the Argies lost their heads completely as it would've been a great test otherwise. Not really surprising all the talk is about a Kinghorn as there's not much else to discuss, this team isn't really going forward or backwards. I will say however good Kinghorn is the gulf between him and Russell is huge. Which is to expected. Kinghorn is going to be a good bench option though.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:30 am Watched the game this morning and for a non event after the red card it was quite entertaining in the end. Tuipolotu was good. Enjoyable amount of real niggle.

Probably about a par autumn, disappointed the Argies lost their heads completely as it would've been a great test otherwise. Not really surprising all the talk is about a Kinghorn as there's not much else to discuss, this team isn't really going forward or backwards. I will say however good Kinghorn is the gulf between him and Russell is huge. Which is to expected. Kinghorn is going to be a good bench option though.

Yeah, just watched it myself and was pleasantly surprised given some of the comments on the match thread. They seemed to get caught up in the Argies nonsense for about 15 minutes but apart from that Russell, Graham, VDM and Tuipolotu were very good.

Ritchie's yellow was an awful bit of officiating. He is clearly grabbed round the head and neck and tries to wrestle the Argie off and I really don't understand what Dickson thought he did wrong, especially when Matera was far worse and didn't get anything.

I also laughed after Tuipolotu's yellow card that all the officials completely ignored the Argentinian flying horizontally over the tackle with his shoulder straight into Tuipolotu's face. Given the multiple Argie knock on's and tackles off the ball that Dickson was ignoring at that stage I think one of them would have needed to pull a knife for Dickson to ping them.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:30 am Watched the game this morning and for a non event after the red card it was quite entertaining in the end. Tuipolotu was good. Enjoyable amount of real niggle.

Probably about a par autumn, disappointed the Argies lost their heads completely as it would've been a great test otherwise. Not really surprising all the talk is about a Kinghorn as there's not much else to discuss, this team isn't really going forward or backwards. I will say however good Kinghorn is the gulf between him and Russell is huge. Which is to expected. Kinghorn is going to be a good bench option though.

I think that's the problem though. We are 12 months out from the World Cup and really not progressed in the last 2 years.

- Still reliant on Finn being good Finn.
- We know we have depth, if not necessarily quality depth in most positions.
- Our discipline is still a big problem.
- we conceded 21 points to 14 sometimes 13 and 12 men.

This was a set of internationals against teams that we generally match up well with. We should be doing well against these teams.

We are no further forward with generating a game plan to threaten teams who can over power us, GT/ABZ have changed zero to our attack 0-10m from the oppo goal line which is still shocking and we have a coach who didn't really want Russell, wouldn't have picked him and now has to pick him.

On Kinghorn, yes he's improving but his goal kicking needs a lot of work on consistency. We've seen a Finn turn into a very good goal kicker after being a good one, Kinghorn needs to take a step forward in this part of his game.

So as a stand alone NI series it was about par, from a bigger picture POV there are still major concerns IMO.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:26 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:30 am Watched the game this morning and for a non event after the red card it was quite entertaining in the end. Tuipolotu was good. Enjoyable amount of real niggle.

Probably about a par autumn, disappointed the Argies lost their heads completely as it would've been a great test otherwise. Not really surprising all the talk is about a Kinghorn as there's not much else to discuss, this team isn't really going forward or backwards. I will say however good Kinghorn is the gulf between him and Russell is huge. Which is to expected. Kinghorn is going to be a good bench option though.

Yeah, just watched it myself and was pleasantly surprised given some of the comments on the match thread. They seemed to get caught up in the Argies nonsense for about 15 minutes but apart from that Russell, Graham, VDM and Tuipolotu were very good.

Ritchie's yellow was an awful bit of officiating. He is clearly grabbed round the head and neck and tries to wrestle the Argie off and I really don't understand what Dickson thought he did wrong, especially when Matera was far worse and didn't get anything.

Ritchie was warned minutes earlier then got involved on the scuffle he didn't need to.

Will be interested to see if ST ends up with a ban, don't think he could have had complaints if it was a red. The movement of the right arm from tackled position to forearm across the chest to push him down was reckless and unnecessary.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:49 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:26 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:30 am Watched the game this morning and for a non event after the red card it was quite entertaining in the end. Tuipolotu was good. Enjoyable amount of real niggle.

Probably about a par autumn, disappointed the Argies lost their heads completely as it would've been a great test otherwise. Not really surprising all the talk is about a Kinghorn as there's not much else to discuss, this team isn't really going forward or backwards. I will say however good Kinghorn is the gulf between him and Russell is huge. Which is to expected. Kinghorn is going to be a good bench option though.

Yeah, just watched it myself and was pleasantly surprised given some of the comments on the match thread. They seemed to get caught up in the Argies nonsense for about 15 minutes but apart from that Russell, Graham, VDM and Tuipolotu were very good.

Ritchie's yellow was an awful bit of officiating. He is clearly grabbed round the head and neck and tries to wrestle the Argie off and I really don't understand what Dickson thought he did wrong, especially when Matera was far worse and didn't get anything.

Ritchie was warned minutes earlier then got involved on the scuffle he didn't need to.

Will be interested to see if ST ends up with a ban, don't think he could have had complaints if it was a red. The movement of the right arm from tackled position to forearm across the chest to push him down was reckless and unnecessary.

I think he will. Can't fathom what he was thinking but I thought he was lucky to escape with yellow, as whilst the lad was barely beyond the horizontal, he definitely drove him down with force.

Have to say I’m a bit cheerier than some after this set of games. I know it is a bit silly to judge ourselves by other games, but nonetheless I will, and we came within a bawhair of beating Oz (with loads of players missing) gave NZ a very good game who smashed Wales (and England apart from the scoreboard) and I didn’t think we would ever lose to Argentina. We have moved up 3 or 4 ranking points to 6th.

Regarding our attack, it’s basically not great without Finn, but you could say that about many or the top teams if their main playmaker is not playing - see Ireland last night. We know our best backline, with some debate about 12 (and Hutch). We have a load of forwards that can interchange and compete with anyone.

Of course there are still big concerns, particularly around penalties, but a lot of those will disappear with more confidence in our ability to win without them.

I think we will have a very strong 6N if everyone stays fit. I also think we still have no chance of getting out of our WC group, but nothing is going to change that

Another thing I noticed was that although we still have away a lot of dumb penalties, we didn’t give 3 or 4 away in quick succession in stupid areas of the pitch which we have done consistently over the last few years. That is a bit of a nice change

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:00 pm Have to say I’m a bit cheerier than some after this set of games. I know it is a bit silly to judge ourselves by other games, but nonetheless I will, and we came within a bawhair of beating Oz (with loads of players missing) gave NZ a very good game who smashed Wales (and England apart from the scoreboard) and I didn’t think we would ever lose to Argentina. We have moved up 3 or 4 ranking points to 6th.

Regarding our attack, it’s basically not great without Finn, but you could say that about many or the top teams if their main playmaker is not playing - see Ireland last night. We know our best backline, with some debate about 12 (and Hutch). We have a load of forwards that can interchange and compete with anyone.

Of course there are still big concerns, particularly around penalties, but a lot of those will disappear with more confidence in our ability to win without them.

I think we will have a very strong 6N if everyone stays fit. I also think we still have no chance of getting out of our WC group, but nothing is going to change that

Don't disagree with any of this. We should really be looking at 3 wins out of 4 as Kinghorn should have scored with the penalty kick.

My concern about us is the usual lack of belief in some of the players and at times we go into our shells when in the driving seat. We let the ABs into the game the other week and let them bully us up front in the second half. We still need some leadership in the pack from a hard bar steward who refuses to take a step back. We have lots of good player but miss a Finlay Calder type who isn't afraid to kick off and bully his own pack into the game. The only one who comes close to this in my mind is Crosbie who I have never seen step backwards from a fight but he can't get in the team at the moment.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:33 pm I also laughed after Tuipolotu's yellow card that all the officials completely ignored the Argentinian flying horizontally over the tackle with his shoulder straight into Tuipolotu's face. Given the multiple Argie knock on's and tackles off the ball that Dickson was ignoring at that stage I think one of them would have needed to pull a knife for Dickson to ping them.

Yes. I also got the strong impression that he would have let play run on at the end for as long as it took Argentina to score.

Re: the Ritchie YC, he was unlucky, but after a stramash like that, involving about 15-20 players altogether, the eventual outcome was always going to be one sin-binned from each team. What else could the ref do?

I agree with the assessment that we are staying much the same - we might do OK in the 6N, but there’s no sign whatsoever that we could challenge SA or Ireland.

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:21 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:00 pm Have to say I’m a bit cheerier than some after this set of games. I know it is a bit silly to judge ourselves by other games, but nonetheless I will, and we came within a bawhair of beating Oz (with loads of players missing) gave NZ a very good game who smashed Wales (and England apart from the scoreboard) and I didn’t think we would ever lose to Argentina. We have moved up 3 or 4 ranking points to 6th.

Regarding our attack, it’s basically not great without Finn, but you could say that about many or the top teams if their main playmaker is not playing - see Ireland last night. We know our best backline, with some debate about 12 (and Hutch). We have a load of forwards that can interchange and compete with anyone.

Of course there are still big concerns, particularly around penalties, but a lot of those will disappear with more confidence in our ability to win without them.

I think we will have a very strong 6N if everyone stays fit. I also think we still have no chance of getting out of our WC group, but nothing is going to change that

Don't disagree with any of this. We should really be looking at 3 wins out of 4 as Kinghorn should have scored with the penalty kick.

My concern about us is the usual lack of belief in some of the players and at times we go into our shells when in the driving seat. We let the ABs into the game the other week and let them bully us up front in the second half. We still need some leadership in the pack from a hard bar steward who refuses to take a step back. We have lots of good player but miss a Finlay Calder type who isn't afraid to kick off and bully his own pack into the game. The only one who comes close to this in my mind is Crosbie who I have never seen step backwards from a fight but he can't get in the team at the moment.

My mates are getting a bit fed up of the metaphor I use - if you’ve got your foot on someone’s throat, you don’t take it off and let them get up and have another go, you keep your foot there and push harder. We always let them back up again.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:17 pm

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:21 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:00 pm Have to say I’m a bit cheerier than some after this set of games. I know it is a bit silly to judge ourselves by other games, but nonetheless I will, and we came within a bawhair of beating Oz (with loads of players missing) gave NZ a very good game who smashed Wales (and England apart from the scoreboard) and I didn’t think we would ever lose to Argentina. We have moved up 3 or 4 ranking points to 6th.

Regarding our attack, it’s basically not great without Finn, but you could say that about many or the top teams if their main playmaker is not playing - see Ireland last night. We know our best backline, with some debate about 12 (and Hutch). We have a load of forwards that can interchange and compete with anyone.

Of course there are still big concerns, particularly around penalties, but a lot of those will disappear with more confidence in our ability to win without them.

I think we will have a very strong 6N if everyone stays fit. I also think we still have no chance of getting out of our WC group, but nothing is going to change that

Don't disagree with any of this. We should really be looking at 3 wins out of 4 as Kinghorn should have scored with the penalty kick.

My concern about us is the usual lack of belief in some of the players and at times we go into our shells when in the driving seat. We let the ABs into the game the other week and let them bully us up front in the second half. We still need some leadership in the pack from a hard bar steward who refuses to take a step back. We have lots of good player but miss a Finlay Calder type who isn't afraid to kick off and bully his own pack into the game. The only one who comes close to this in my mind is Crosbie who I have never seen step backwards from a fight but he can't get in the team at the moment.

My mates are getting a bit fed up of the metaphor I use - if you’ve got your foot on someone’s throat, you don’t take it off and let them get up and have another go, you keep your foot there and push harder. We always let them back up again.

This.

It's one of the things I admired about those great All Blacks sides of the last 20 years, I aways felt they were at their most dangerous immediately after they scored and they'd get two or three in quick succession.

They were the definition of ruthless

I think we have a bloody good rugby team, but not for 80 minutes.

And that's pretty much where we've been since Hogg and Russell became world-class.

On occasion, we have been a bloody good rugby team for 0 minutes of a game, see the Ireland game in the last RWC. Hopefully, we've left that phase behind and will not be humiliated like that again.

But I've given up hope that this team can take the next step and become that 80-minute team, like Ireland and France are and NZ and SA can be. Coincidentally exactly those 4 teams are in our quarter of the RWC draw and I FUCKING HATE THAT.

Thanks, I'm fine now.

But I dream of a draw where we had two of Wales, Australia and Argentina in our group and got to a QF against England. I could have had that feeling of nervous anticipation based on true belief that goes all the way down to your toes that is the essence of supporting your country in a RWC. Instead, it's just hopeless resignation. Cursed be the balls-in-bowls gods!

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:30 am I think we have a bloody good rugby team, but not for 80 minutes.

And that's pretty much where we've been since Hogg and Russell became world-class.

On occasion, we have been a bloody good rugby team for 0 minutes of a game, see the Ireland game in the last RWC. Hopefully, we've left that phase behind and will not be humiliated like that again.

But I've given up hope that this team can take the next step and become that 80-minute team, like Ireland and France are and NZ and SA can be. Coincidentally exactly those 4 teams are in our quarter of the RWC draw and I FUCKING HATE THAT.

Thanks, I'm fine now.

But I dream of a draw where we had two of Wales, Australia and Argentina in our group and got to a QF against England. I could have had that feeling of nervous anticipation based on true belief that goes all the way down to your toes that is the essence of supporting your country in a RWC. Instead, it's just hopeless resignation. Cursed be the balls-in-bowls gods!

We aren't quite there yet, but I've not given up hope for the World Cup.

It really shows when Watson isn't there, even when he's not been at his very best recently, but given Big Richie's return to form, we were missing Watson, R Gray, Cummings, Skinner and Darge from the pack - I have a horrible feeling about Darge, that he'll be the next Ross Rennie, I really hope I'm wrong.
I'm happy with Bhatti as a replacement if Sutherland's injury woes continue, he always plays well for Scotland. Walker is looking like the real deal. Between Brown, Rambo, Ashman and Cherry we should have a decent pool of hookers.
Dempsey din't set the heather alight, but he has time to settle into the role. I thought Bradbury had been doing quite well at Brizz, but maybe not. I'll make a point of watching their games. The rest of the back row will be the same as per this squad, which is fine if we can develop a modern day equivalent of the fast rucking game of the 80s & 90s. If we can do that then I think we can trouble most sides with the backs we have.

Tuipulotu has certainly answered a few critics, including myself, with a couple of very decent performances, but the centres still worry me a little.

Harris has to start, I think. His attacking play is really not up to standard, but we all know how much he makes up for that in defence and I think for some of the players around him that solidity is vital.

Finn was mercurial in both games he played but it is an awful lot to put on him to be the only real playmaker at 10, 12 & 13 if Tuipulotu starts. I'm not sure what Redpath did wrong to not be given a start against either NZ or Arg, maybe it's just that the midfield looks a bit short of power in both attack and defence with him there. Has Bennett played much 12?

I spent longer than I should of last night wondering about BK at 12. It's probably too late to try that now but would love to see him with Finn against a couple of tier 2 teams or Wales. Argentina were busy defending outside channels because of BK's long passes that stretched them in the summer, opening up those delicious gaps for Finn, imagine having that twin threat. I suspect defence would be the issue there but it's my leftfield thought for the day.

Hes played a few times for Embra but not in along while. There's still Hutch, Scott and Dean.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:51 am Hes played a few times for Embra but not in along while. There's still Hutch, Scott and Dean.

Kinghorn has played at 12 for Edinburgh?

Scott is miles away from international selection. His Scotland race has been run.

It's going to be Tuipolotu in the six nations if he stays fit.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:56 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:51 am Hes played a few times for Embra but not in along while. There's still Hutch, Scott and Dean.

Kinghorn has played at 12 for Edinburgh?

Scott is miles away from international selection. His Scotland race has been run.

It's going to be Tuipolotu in the six nations if he stays fit.

I think you're right, maybe once or twice at the end of a natch. Not certain though.

That because he's out of form or are you saying that purely because Toony has no interest?

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:48 am Tuipulotu has certainly answered a few critics, including myself, with a couple of very decent performances, but the centres still worry me a little.

Harris has to start, I think. His attacking play is really not up to standard, but we all know how much he makes up for that in defence and I think for some of the players around him that solidity is vital.

Finn was mercurial in both games he played but it is an awful lot to put on him to be the only real playmaker at 10, 12 & 13 if Tuipulotu starts. I'm not sure what Redpath did wrong to not be given a start against either NZ or Arg, maybe it's just that the midfield looks a bit short of power in both attack and defence with him there. Has Bennett played much 12?

I spent longer than I should of last night wondering about BK at 12. It's probably too late to try that now but would love to see him with Finn against a couple of tier 2 teams or Wales. Argentina were busy defending outside channels because of BK's long passes that stretched them in the summer, opening up those delicious gaps for Finn, imagine having that twin threat. I suspect defence would be the issue there but it's my leftfield thought for the day.

I think the improvement in Tuipulotu has been remarkable this season.

I disagree on Harris though. He might be a B&I Lion and the defensive rock in the team, but barely contributes (at best) when the team is attacking. His selection is fair enough when you want your team to grind something out against SA/Ireland, but this Scotland team is, or should be with the personnel available, good enough to play decent rugby against anyone else. Honestly, he could have come off as soon as Argentina went a man down and we might have seen a couple more tries.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:56 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:51 am Hes played a few times for Embra but not in along while. There's still Hutch, Scott and Dean.

Kinghorn has played at 12 for Edinburgh?

He's played as second receiver on some plays with Jaco being first, but I don't think he's ever worn the 12 jersey, no that I recall anyway.

Scott is miles away from international selection. His Scotland race has been run.

True, no matter how well he plays for Leicester, he's not getting another shot.
Dean has missed the boat, unfortunately - the player has always been there, I've heard that his peers say he's amazing to play and train with, but I think he's had the wrong coaches. When he first started at 13 for Edinburgh his distribution was poor, now it absolutely top notch.

For some unfathomable reason I think Hutch is oot until we have a change at the top.

It's going to be Tuipolotu in the six nations if he stays fit.

To be fair, he's been one of the plus points throughout this series

Following the AIs, I reckon this will be Scotland's squad of 33 for next year's RWC. Management have talked of considering taking just 5 props though, so it's possible that Nel or Bhatti misses out, replaced perhaps by Horne as a third scrum-half. Unlikely though in my view.

HOOKERS Ashman Brown Turner
PROPS Schoeman Sutherland Bhatti Z.Fagerson Nel Walker
SECOND ROW R.Gray Cummings Gilchrist J.Gray Skinner
BACK ROW Ritchie Darge Watson M.Fagerson Dempsey
SCRUM HALVES Price White
FLY HALVES Russell Hastings Kinghorn
CENTRES Redpath Harris Tuipulotu Bennett
WINGS vdMerwe Graham Rowe
FULL BACKS Hogg O.Smith

This team would completely miss out, pending injuries:
Auterac Cherry Sebastian Young Hodgson Bradbury Crosbie Muncaster Horne Thompson McLean Hutchinson Jones Steyn Maitland

Scotland's schedule could well mean that they prepare the 1st XV entirely to face SA, following which they have four weeks to prepare to face Ireland. Meanwhile the dirt-trackers get matches against Tonga and Romania within six days of each other, so there may well be some changes (though probably not needed, with Romania second) there.

XV vs. South Africa, Ireland...........XV vs. Tonga, Romania
Schoeman......................................Sutherland
Ashman..........................................Brown
Z.Fagerson.....................................Walker
R.Gray.............................................Gilchrist
Cummings.....................................J.Gray
Ritchie............................................Skinner
Darge..............................................Watson
M.Fagerson....................................Dempsey
Price...............................................White
Russell...........................................Hastings
vdMerwe........................................Rowe
Redpath.........................................Tuipulotu
Harris.............................................Bennett
Graham..........................................Kinghorn
Hogg..............................................Smith
BENCH (vs.SA/vs.Ire)...................BENCH
Brown/Turner................................Turner
Sutherland/Bhatti.........................Bhatti
Nel/Walker.....................................Nel
Gilchrist/Skinner...........................Cummings
Dempsey........................................Ritchie
Smith.............................................Price
Kinghorn........................................Redpath
Tuipulotu.......................................Graham

Have I forgotten anyone?

I think we all have forgotten about Sam Johnson, who I am a very big fan of.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:29 pm I think we all have forgotten about Sam Johnson, who I am a very big fan of.

He has served Scotland well, but I reckon he is lower than that group above now!

charltom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:32 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:29 pm I think we all have forgotten about Sam Johnson, who I am a very big fan of.

He has served Scotland well, but I reckon he is lower than that group above now!

Nah, he's class. Hasn't had his best 12 months, but I think he will be back. By far the most intelligent player we have at 12.

No bolters in there though. And given the Toony Tombola, I reckon we’ll see something unexpected. Might see Marshall Sykes or Connor Boyle make a dash for it.

What the hell has happened to Oli Kebble? Has his form just fallen off a cliff? He was being lined up to be the versatile can-play-both-sides option?

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:21 pm What the hell has happened to Oli Kebble? Has his form just fallen off a cliff? He was being lined up to be the versatile can-play-both-sides option?

The slight flaw in that plan is that tighthead prop is so specialised it was always unlikely he manages to do
it. Glasgoww didn't want to do it as they're short on looseheads. And the world cup has extended squads so there's no need for it anyway.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:01 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:56 am

Jock42 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:51 am Hes played a few times for Embra but not in along while. There's still Hutch, Scott and Dean.

Kinghorn has played at 12 for Edinburgh?

He's played as second receiver on some plays with Jaco being first, but I don't think he's ever worn the 12 jersey, no that I recall anyway.

Scott is miles away from international selection. His Scotland race has been run.

True, no matter how well he plays for Leicester, he's not getting another shot.
Dean has missed the boat, unfortunately - the player has always been there, I've heard that his peers say he's amazing to play and train with, but I think he's had the wrong coaches. When he first started at 13 for Edinburgh his distribution was poor, now it absolutely top notch.

For some unfathomable reason I think Hutch is oot until we have a change at the top.

It's going to be Tuipolotu in the six nations if he stays fit.

To be fair, he's been one of the plus points throughout this series

Yes to answer Jock it was that Toony wasn't interested even when Scott was in amazing form for Edinburgh precovid. He then did well for Tigers - got a shot vs I think SA and wasn't good at all.

Have to agree about Dean - I actually think in all the discussions about 7s it was a big problem in Dean's development. Was amazing in school boy rugby at 8 and 13. Left without a position and then missed a lot of age grades with the 7s, returned a 13 when a longer look I think he'd be a 12 earlier in his career or at least exposed to 12 which is where he's best and he always improves at core skills. Anyway he left the 7s a jack of all trades master of none which isn't what he needed as that's kind of how he left school. When focus on his union I think he'd have been a few years ahead in his development and have a few caps now.

Have to disagree about Tuipolotu. His drop Vs Aus cost the match, he didn't do anything of note Vs NZ then ended on a high Vs Argentina. I think I'd say he was fine with his first two matches bad.

I agree with slick Johnson is the real deal. And agree with you that Hutchinson's omission is a poor reflection on the coaches as he's the best 12 we have available.

That’s a bit harsh on Matt Scott, my memory of the game is that our pack took a beating and we were on the back foot against a back line that was on fire, that Saffa attack is woefully underrated because of the monsters in front of them.

Scott made a very obvious error in stepping out of the defensive line and got beaten by de Allende as a result, ending in a try

Mark Bennett missed a tackle against the All Blacks a week ago, he was dropped for Argentina, I wonder if he’ll be in the 6N squad?

I think the issue we have in the centres is Toonie feels we need strong defenders in there. When you look at the first choice back line in terms of defence, you have:
Hogg: pretty poor 1 on 1 defender
Duhan: positionally suspect in defence
Darcy: great positioning and brave as a lion but his size is his size
Finn: robust and clever but not a notable defender
Price: not a good defender, small.

You can kind of see his thinking that we need a defensive organiser and a robust presence in there to shore things up, ergo Harris. Harris may not do anything flashy but he a) organises and b) probably more importantly understands when the line is in trouble. Watch back a match and the number of times he shoots out and kills an opposition attack is crazy. Looking wider at those plays it’s usually because we are in trouble defensively.

All this to say we are exceptionally unlikely to move away from a more defensively focussed and bigger centre partnership of Harris and Tupo under Toonie, regardless of how well someone like Scott or Hutch plays.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:00 am I think the issue we have in the centres is Toonie feels we need strong defenders in there. When you look at the first choice back line in terms of defence, you have:
Hogg: pretty poor 1 on 1 defender
Duhan: positionally suspect in defence
Darcy: great positioning and brave as a lion but his size is his size
Finn: robust and clever but not a notable defender
Price: not a good defender, small.

You can kind of see his thinking that we need a defensive organiser and a robust presence in there to shore things up, ergo Harris. Harris may not do anything flashy but he a) organises and b) probably more importantly understands when the line is in trouble. Watch back a match and the number of times he shoots out and kills an opposition attack is crazy. Looking wider at those plays it’s usually because we are in trouble defensively.

All this to say we are exceptionally unlikely to move away from a more defensively focussed and bigger centre partnership of Harris and Tupo under Toonie, regardless of how well someone like Scott or Hutch plays.

I’ve never shared the antipathy towards Harris, without being a huge fan, but I’ve watched him closely since the Lions and I can really appreciate how he organises our defence, you see him calling out all the time, telling others where there are gaps

He’s getting a lot of stick for not scoring on Saturday, but I think the Argentina scramble defence was very quick to cover

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:00 am I think the issue we have in the centres is Toonie feels we need strong defenders in there. When you look at the first choice back line in terms of defence, you have:
Hogg: pretty poor 1 on 1 defender
Duhan: positionally suspect in defence
Darcy: great positioning and brave as a lion but his size is his size
Finn: robust and clever but not a notable defender
Price: not a good defender, small.

You can kind of see his thinking that we need a defensive organiser and a robust presence in there to shore things up, ergo Harris. Harris may not do anything flashy but he a) organises and b) probably more importantly understands when the line is in trouble. Watch back a match and the number of times he shoots out and kills an opposition attack is crazy. Looking wider at those plays it’s usually because we are in trouble defensively.

All this to say we are exceptionally unlikely to move away from a more defensively focussed and bigger centre partnership of Harris and Tupo under Toonie, regardless of how well someone like Scott or Hutch plays.

Finns defence is massively under rated.

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:24 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:00 am I think the issue we have in the centres is Toonie feels we need strong defenders in there. When you look at the first choice back line in terms of defence, you have:
Hogg: pretty poor 1 on 1 defender
Duhan: positionally suspect in defence
Darcy: great positioning and brave as a lion but his size is his size
Finn: robust and clever but not a notable defender
Price: not a good defender, small.

You can kind of see his thinking that we need a defensive organiser and a robust presence in there to shore things up, ergo Harris. Harris may not do anything flashy but he a) organises and b) probably more importantly understands when the line is in trouble. Watch back a match and the number of times he shoots out and kills an opposition attack is crazy. Looking wider at those plays it’s usually because we are in trouble defensively.

All this to say we are exceptionally unlikely to move away from a more defensively focussed and bigger centre partnership of Harris and Tupo under Toonie, regardless of how well someone like Scott or Hutch plays.

Finns defence is massively under rated.

I also think Duhan has improved his positioning

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:24 am

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:00 am I think the issue we have in the centres is Toonie feels we need strong defenders in there. When you look at the first choice back line in terms of defence, you have:
Hogg: pretty poor 1 on 1 defender
Duhan: positionally suspect in defence
Darcy: great positioning and brave as a lion but his size is his size
Finn: robust and clever but not a notable defender
Price: not a good defender, small.

You can kind of see his thinking that we need a defensive organiser and a robust presence in there to shore things up, ergo Harris. Harris may not do anything flashy but he a) organises and b) probably more importantly understands when the line is in trouble. Watch back a match and the number of times he shoots out and kills an opposition attack is crazy. Looking wider at those plays it’s usually because we are in trouble defensively.

All this to say we are exceptionally unlikely to move away from a more defensively focussed and bigger centre partnership of Harris and Tupo under Toonie, regardless of how well someone like Scott or Hutch plays.

Finns defence is massively under rated.

Yeah, I thought that he is a relatively strong tackler as fly halves go.