The Official English Rugby Thread

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I shall send for a violin.

Why England need to cover all expenses as a starting point I don't know. As is England offer a lot in the way of inducements and no club in England has been successful without a strong core of English players, and no club in England has proved successful (bar for a a season or two) without a strong academy.

So if you want extra money and the chance of being successful history says you'll try to produce the best English players you can. As is Sarries do have a lot of strong English talent, which for others I'm sure is a positive, and for some (hopefully only the one) it's a chance to whine that still more things aren't in their favour

[Margin__Walker]

In squad news, the Mail (who tend to be on the money with these things) reckon Danny Care may be getting a call up.

[SaintK]

In squad news, the Mail (who tend to be on the money with these things) reckon Danny Care may be getting a call up.

Sunday Telegraph also reporting it
Youngs not available to tour

[sockwithaticket]

If I were him I'd be tempted to tell Eddie where to stick it after the way he was dumped out of the squad and Willi fucking Heinz brought in instead.

[Hal Jordan]

In squad news, the Mail (who tend to be on the money with these things) reckon Danny Care may be getting a call up.

Sunday Telegraph also reporting it
Youngs not available to tour

Understable given the family's circumstances.

[Margin__Walker]

Updated squad. Care back in as the headline.

FORWARDS

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Will Collier (Harlequins, 2 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 40 caps)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 9 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 30 caps)
Will Goodrick-Clarke (London Irish, uncapped)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 2 caps)
Sam Jeffries (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 93 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 20 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 28 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 3 caps)

BACKS
Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped)
Mark Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 84 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped)
Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 12 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 69 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 39 caps)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 10 caps)


Nicked from Twitter, but think that make it the following as changes:

Walker for McGuigan
Collier for Alo
Lawes for Clarke
Ludlam for Pearson
Dombrandt for Barbeary
Care & Mitchell for Robson
Smith for Atkinson
Dingwall for Ojomoh
Marchant for Odogwu
Freeman for Parton

[JM2K6]

That they bother at all is to their credit. Sale royally took the piss though.

I suspect Saracens will have at least half their team missing again.

Sale still produced Bevan Rodd, Raffi Quirke, Tom Curry, Ben Curry as players good enough for England with the James brothers and a few others as the next step down.

I do expect Saracens to suffer a little bit - but then they have so many internationals. 22 out of 23 in the matchday squad yesterday, and a starting XV averaging 40 caps each. Not all of them are going to be playing internationals next season so they'll still be pretty strong.

10 came through their academy. All internationals. And plenty more weren't internationals when they joined.

Weren't they?

[Kawazaki]

Sale still produced Bevan Rodd, Raffi Quirke, Tom Curry, Ben Curry as players good enough for England with the James brothers and a few others as the next step down.

I do expect Saracens to suffer a little bit - but then they have so many internationals. 22 out of 23 in the matchday squad yesterday, and a starting XV averaging 40 caps each. Not all of them are going to be playing internationals next season so they'll still be pretty strong.

10 came through their academy. All internationals. And plenty more weren't internationals when they joined.

Weren't they?

Sure, 2x Vunipola and a Lozowski. Saracens also asked Samoa to cap McFarland so they could employ him as a Kolpak.

[sockwithaticket]

Updated squad. Care back in as the headline.

FORWARDS

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Will Collier (Harlequins, 2 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 40 caps)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 9 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 30 caps)
Will Goodrick-Clarke (London Irish, uncapped)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 2 caps)
Sam Jeffries (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 93 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 20 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 28 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 3 caps)

BACKS
Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped)
Mark Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Danny Care (Harlequins, 84 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped)
Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 12 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 69 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 39 caps)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 10 caps)


Nicked from Twitter, but think that make it the following as changes:

Walker for McGuigan
Collier for Alo
Lawes for Clarke
Ludlam for Pearson
Dombrandt for Barbeary
Care & Mitchell for Robson
Smith for Atkinson
Dingwall for Ojomoh
Marchant for Odogwu
Freeman for Parton

Can't really argue those most of those, though feel Barbeary might be a bit hard done by when Chick is still there. Blamire really shouldn't be there ahead of McGuigan. If anyone's swapping it for Walker it should be him.

Surprised by Launchbury's continued absence, don't think he's injured.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, most of the changes seem reasonable enough

McGuigan especially very unlucky. Not much more he could have done this season to impress. EJ obviously doesn't fancy him.

[sockwithaticket]

10 came through their academy. All internationals. And plenty more weren't internationals when they joined.

Weren't they?

Sure, 2x Vunipola and a Lozowski. Saracens also asked Samoa to cap McFarland so they could employ him as a Kolpak.

Billy made his debut on the 2013 Summer tour, that was between leaving Wasps and joining Saracens, so it's Vunipola x1 really.

[Kawazaki]

Weren't they?

Sure, 2x Vunipola and a Lozowski. Saracens also asked Samoa to cap McFarland so they could employ him as a Kolpak.

Billy made his debut on the 2013 Summer tour, that was between leaving Wasps and joining Saracens, so it's Vunipola x1 really.

I didn't include Kapeli Pifeleti as ex-Saracens academy so it was 11, not 10. He was EQP as well.

[JM2K6]

10 came through their academy. All internationals. And plenty more weren't internationals when they joined.

Weren't they?

Sure, 2x Vunipola and a Lozowski. Saracens also asked Samoa to cap McFarland so they could employ him as a Kolpak.

No they didn't They were interested in him and told him they could sign him easier if he won some caps. He switched from 7s and earned a callup. They weren't some gift to Saracens from Samoa.

The point - which we've gone very far away from already - is that there's no point complaining about Saracens missing players next season, because they have a squad stuffed with experienced international players both current and former. McFarland's 2 Tier 2 caps don't really affect that. It looks like it'll be a case of Itoje, George, Daly, Farrell going for certain, and probably 1-2 of Vunipolae, Earl, Malins.

That still leaves experienced T1 capped international players like Goode, Taylor, Tompkins, Maitland, Davies, Swinson, Isiekwe, Lozowski and whichever of the Vunipolae/Earl/Malins doesn't get called up.

That's more internationals than last year's champions have in their strongest XV.

[Raggs]

Weren't they?

Sure, 2x Vunipola and a Lozowski. Saracens also asked Samoa to cap McFarland so they could employ him as a Kolpak.

Billy made his debut on the 2013 Summer tour, that was between leaving Wasps and joining Saracens, so it's Vunipola x1 really.

He would have been in the 2013 6N if he hadn't got injured after being called up.

[Kawazaki]

Weren't they?

Sure, 2x Vunipola and a Lozowski. Saracens also asked Samoa to cap McFarland so they could employ him as a Kolpak.

No they didn't They were interested in him and told him they could sign him easier if he won some caps. He switched from 7s and earned a callup. They weren't some gift to Saracens from Samoa.

The point - which we've gone very far away from already - is that there's no point complaining about Saracens missing players next season, because they have a squad stuffed with experienced international players both current and former. McFarland's 2 Tier 2 caps don't really affect that. It looks like it'll be a case of Itoje, George, Daly, Farrell going for certain, and probably 1-2 of Vunipolae, Earl, Malins.

That still leaves experienced T1 capped international players like Goode, Taylor, Tompkins, Maitland, Davies, Swinson, Isiekwe, Lozowski and whichever of the Vunipolae/Earl/Malins doesn't get called up.

That's more internationals than last year's champions have in their strongest XV.

Isiekwe is in the England squad, he was a starter in the 6Ns! Earl and Malins will both be in the RWC squad.

Taylor, Maitland, Hunter-Hill and Christie could all be in the Scottish RWC squad. Davies likely will as well as the third 9 for Wales. Pifeleti will be playing in the RWC for the USA, Mawi for Fiji, Riccioni for Italy.

In fact, if they all get picked, you'll have to wonder who on earth will be left to play league matches!

p.s. you're wrong about McFarland, Saracens had a word with Samoa before he was capped so they gave him a few caps off the bench.

[Raggs]

Isiekwe is in the England squad, he was a starter in the 6Ns! Earl and Malins will both be in the RWC squad.

Taylor, Maitland, Hunter-Hill and Christie could all be in the Scottish RWC squad. Davies likely will as well as the third 9 for Wales. Pifeleti will be playing in the RWC for the USA, Mawi for Fiji, Riccioni for Italy.

In fact, if they all get picked, you'll have to wonder who on earth will be left to play league matches!

p.s. you're wrong about McFarland, Saracens had a word with Samoa before he was capped so they gave him a few caps off the bench.

He's kolpak whether he's got caps or not. Where having caps is actually important is for him to get a visa. To get a sports visa he needs so many caps to prove he deserves one. If Sarries were pushing for him to get caps, it was to help with his visa.

[JM2K6]

Sure, 2x Vunipola and a Lozowski. Saracens also asked Samoa to cap McFarland so they could employ him as a Kolpak.

No they didn't They were interested in him and told him they could sign him easier if he won some caps. He switched from 7s and earned a callup. They weren't some gift to Saracens from Samoa.

The point - which we've gone very far away from already - is that there's no point complaining about Saracens missing players next season, because they have a squad stuffed with experienced international players both current and former. McFarland's 2 Tier 2 caps don't really affect that. It looks like it'll be a case of Itoje, George, Daly, Farrell going for certain, and probably 1-2 of Vunipolae, Earl, Malins.

That still leaves experienced T1 capped international players like Goode, Taylor, Tompkins, Maitland, Davies, Swinson, Isiekwe, Lozowski and whichever of the Vunipolae/Earl/Malins doesn't get called up.

That's more internationals than last year's champions have in their strongest XV.

Isiekwe is in the England squad, he was a starter in the 6Ns! Earl and Malins will both be in the RWC squad.

Taylor, Maitland, Hunter-Hill and Christie could all be in the Scottish RWC squad. Davies likely will as well as the third 9 for Wales. Pifeleti will be playing in the RWC for the USA, Mawi for Fiji, Riccioni for Italy.

In fact, if they all get picked, you'll have to wonder who on earth will be left to play league matches!

p.s. you're wrong about McFarland, Saracens had a word with Samoa before he was capped so they gave him a few caps off the bench.

Prove it.

And non English players will not be missing anywhere near as much.

[Kawazaki]

McFarland was discussed some weeks back on The Rugby Podcast. Hamilton had a chat with Nick Kennedy who heads up recruitment for Saracens and he set it out how it happened then. Kennedy is on friendly terms with the Samoa head coach, Mapusua, who he played with at London Irish.

[JM2K6]

McFarland was discussed some weeks back on The Rugby Podcast. Hamilton had a chat with Nick Kennedy who heads up recruitment for Saracens and he set it out how it happened then. Kennedy is on friendly terms with the Samoa head coach, Mapusua, who he played with at London Irish.

Yeah? Which episode is that?

[Kawazaki]

McFarland was discussed some weeks back on The Rugby Podcast. Hamilton had a chat with Nick Kennedy who heads up recruitment for Saracens and he set it out how it happened then. Kennedy is on friendly terms with the Samoa head coach, Mapusua, who he played with at London Irish.

Yeah? Which episode is that?

Few weeks back.

[JM2K6]

McFarland was discussed some weeks back on The Rugby Podcast. Hamilton had a chat with Nick Kennedy who heads up recruitment for Saracens and he set it out how it happened then. Kennedy is on friendly terms with the Samoa head coach, Mapusua, who he played with at London Irish.

Yeah? Which episode is that?

Few weeks back.

Kennedy doesn't seem to have been on the podcast.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/t ... 1044209457

[Kawazaki]

Yeah? Which episode is that?

Few weeks back.

Kennedy doesn't seem to have been on the podcast.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/t ... 1044209457

No, never said he was. Hamilton was recalling the chat when they were talking about McFarland.

[sockwithaticket]

Sure, 2x Vunipola and a Lozowski. Saracens also asked Samoa to cap McFarland so they could employ him as a Kolpak.

No they didn't They were interested in him and told him they could sign him easier if he won some caps. He switched from 7s and earned a callup. They weren't some gift to Saracens from Samoa.

The point - which we've gone very far away from already - is that there's no point complaining about Saracens missing players next season, because they have a squad stuffed with experienced international players both current and former. McFarland's 2 Tier 2 caps don't really affect that. It looks like it'll be a case of Itoje, George, Daly, Farrell going for certain, and probably 1-2 of Vunipolae, Earl, Malins.

That still leaves experienced T1 capped international players like Goode, Taylor, Tompkins, Maitland, Davies, Swinson, Isiekwe, Lozowski and whichever of the Vunipolae/Earl/Malins doesn't get called up.

That's more internationals than last year's champions have in their strongest XV.

Isiekwe is in the England squad, he was a starter in the 6Ns! Earl and Malins will both be in the RWC squad.

Taylor, Maitland, Hunter-Hill and Christie could all be in the Scottish RWC squad. Davies likely will as well as the third 9 for Wales. Pifeleti will be playing in the RWC for the USA, Mawi for Fiji, Riccioni for Italy.

In fact, if they all get picked, you'll have to wonder who on earth will be left to play league matches!

p.s. you're wrong about McFarland, Saracens had a word with Samoa before he was capped so they gave him a few caps off the bench.

They may well take Taylor, but given how often he seems to be injured, will you even notice the absence? Christie's a big maybe you'd think at this stage of his career and with Scotland's wealth of talent in the back row including new talents like Darge and Muncaster. Maitland may get there for his experience, but I'd honestly expect you to have academy wings who do more in games these days.

[Kawazaki]

There will be other clubs similarly affected as Saracens will be. They've fulfilled full league campaigns during RWCs before and done ok. It'll be a huge stretch though.

[JM2K6]

Few weeks back.

Kennedy doesn't seem to have been on the podcast.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/t ... 1044209457

No, never said he was. Hamilton was recalling the chat when they were talking about McFarland.

Oh aye, Hamilton said that did he? Both Kennedy and McFarland have been quoted as saying how it worked, and it wasn't like that.

I've listened to the bit from the podcast from the 24th May where McFarland is being talked about (after that score vs Saints) and Hamilton's bigging him up, and all that's said about Kennedy is that McFarland was recommended to him. Nothing about Samoa doing Saracens a favour.

Also I think you've gotten a bit confused about next season. The rugby world cup matches are after the season ends. The problem is the extended rest for England players, followed by an extended November series, followed by the 6N, all in a season that's been shortened with the world cup in mind.

So people getting called up to play in the world cup does not matter at all.

[Kawazaki]

I suggest you listen to the podcast again.

The RWC is during September and October next year. It's been a while since I played league rugby but I'm fairly certain you play league games in September and October.

[JM2K6]

I suggest you listen to the podcast again.

The RWC is during September and October next year. It's been a while since I played league rugby but I'm fairly certain you play league games in September and October.

I have literally just finished listening to it again.

Thanks for the tip about dates. I'll reciprocate: next season - the one everyone is complaining about availability for - ends next summer. Months before the world cup in September and October. I hope this clears things up.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... -world-cup

Premiership clubs face losing England players for half of their league matches next season due to mandatory rest periods and clashes with international fixtures in a truncated campaign before the Rugby World Cup.

[Kawazaki]

So when do the England players play the league games for their clubs that were scheduled to be played during September and October 2023?

[JM2K6]

So when do the England players play the league games for their clubs that were scheduled to be played during September and October 2023?

They don't. Though of course there's also no November internationals that year.

Crucially, though, the problem is next season. That's what Stephen Jones is talking about the in the article you linked. That's what the RFU is talking about in that article. That is the problem the clubs have raised.

The Rugby World Cup is an issue for everyone who plays top tier club/franchise/regional rugby globally during that period. But everyone is affected the same way. Next season, however, is a different kettle of fish for English clubs. Thanks to the mandatory rest periods, the deliberately shortened season, and the international windows. It's a unique scenario.

Talking about players being called up for the world cup is a different topic entirely.

[JM2K6]

p.s. on the Kennedy thing, I think you got "confused" again:

Kennedy leant on a pair of ex-Exiles allies in George Stowers and Seilala Mapusua.

The former had coached McFarland at Rugby Academy Samoa, an organisation on the island. Mapusua had become the head coach of the national set-up in 2020. Together, they recommended their man to Kennedy, who was sent footage of McFarland in action for Moamoa Roosters as well as clips of his sole outing in Global Rapid Rugby.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ng-season/

[Kawazaki]

You might want to read this JM. Explains what I've been telling you regards McFarland.

https://archive.ph/GFEKQ

[Kawazaki]

Only person confused is you trying to land a blow JM. Been on the sauce?

[JM2K6]

You might want to read this JM. Explains what I've been telling you regards McFarland.

https://archive.ph/GFEKQ

I've read it. It says exactly what I said - that Mapusua told Kennedy about him, they started scouting him and decided he'd be worth a punt, got in touch with him, and told him if he got caps it would be easier to bring him in. So he switched from Sevens and ended up getting caps.

Literally not the same as "Mapusua capped him as a favour to Saracens", because that would be insane.

[JM2K6]

Only person confused is you trying to land a blow JM
Been on the sauce?

To be clear, you've managed to a) bullshit about McFarland and thought no-one would call you on it, and b) pretended that "next season" teams will be missing players because they'd be playing at the world cup, apparently not even reading the article you yourself posted.

You've not understood either thing, it seems.

[Kawazaki]

You might want to read this JM. Explains what I've been telling you regards McFarland.

https://archive.ph/GFEKQ

I've read it. It says exactly what I said - that Mapusua told Kennedy about him, they started scouting him and decided he'd be worth a punt, got in touch with him, and told him if he got caps it would be easier to bring him in. So he switched from Sevens and ended up getting caps.

Literally not the same as "Mapusua capped him as a favour to Saracens", because that would be insane.

Interesting that you put "Mapusua capped him as a favour to Saracens" in quote marks.

The only person who has said that is you.

[Kawazaki]

Only person confused is you trying to land a blow JM
Been on the sauce?

To be clear, you've managed to a) bullshit about McFarland and thought no-one would call you on it, and b) pretended that "next season" teams will be missing players because they'd be playing at the world cup, apparently not even reading the article you yourself posted.

You've not understood either thing, it seems.

You're all over the place fella. Go to bed.

[JM2K6]

You might want to read this JM. Explains what I've been telling you regards McFarland.

https://archive.ph/GFEKQ

I've read it. It says exactly what I said - that Mapusua told Kennedy about him, they started scouting him and decided he'd be worth a punt, got in touch with him, and told him if he got caps it would be easier to bring him in. So he switched from Sevens and ended up getting caps.

Literally not the same as "Mapusua capped him as a favour to Saracens", because that would be insane.

Interesting that you put "Mapusua capped him as a favour to Saracens" in quote marks.

The only person who has said that is you.

You know we can read your posts, yeah?

This is what I said:

They were interested in him and told him they could sign him easier if he won some caps. He switched from 7s and earned a callup. They weren't some gift to Saracens from Samoa.

This is what you said happened:

you're wrong about McFarland, Saracens had a word with Samoa before he was capped so they gave him a few caps off the bench.

This is what you said was the reason for it happening:

Kennedy is on friendly terms with the Samoa head coach, Mapusua, who he played with at London Irish.

"Saracens had a word so they capped him, Kennedy is on friendly terms with Mapusua" is pretty hard to read any other way. Particularly as you've just linked an article that says exactly what I said happened and told me I was wrong.

[JM2K6]

Only person confused is you trying to land a blow JM
Been on the sauce?

To be clear, you've managed to a) bullshit about McFarland and thought no-one would call you on it, and b) pretended that "next season" teams will be missing players because they'd be playing at the world cup, apparently not even reading the article you yourself posted.

You've not understood either thing, it seems.

You're all over the place fella. Go to bed.

Ah, the desperate realisation that you've fucked up not once, but twice, and you can't see a graceful way to climb down. Woops!

But do you understand the problem with next season now? Better late than never, I suppose.

[Kawazaki]

I wasn't on here to have a fight, you started that. McFarland was capped after he'd spoken to Mark McCall via Zoom when McCall said Saracens should hire him. Getting capped made that recruitment easier. It's no big deal, nothing bad has happened, its a great deal for McFarland, great that Samoa have a player in the Premiership and obviously great for Saracens.

[JM2K6]

I wasn't on here to have a fight, you started that. McFarland was capped after he'd spoken to Mark McCall via Zoom when McCall said Saracens should hire him. Getting capped made that recruitment easier. It's no big deal, nothing bad has happened, its a great deal for McFarland, great that Samoa have a player in the Premiership and obviously great for Saracens.

I agree, getting capped made that recruitment easier, and Saracens made it clear to him that would be the case. He got capped because he switched from 7s & that Rapid Rugby nonsense - Mapusua and co were already very much aware of his talent, given they were the ones recommending him to Kennedy.

Thing is, you explicitly claimed that "Saracens also asked Samoa to cap McFarland so they could employ him as a Kolpak" because you just can't help yourself. There is no evidence to suggest that Samoa capped McFarland so that Saracens could employ him as a Kolpak, or that Saracens asked them to do so. It would be a pretty perverse thing to do if you think about it. Glad we've cleared that up, anyway.

On the other topic - those league matches in September and October 2023 largely won't be happening. In normal years, the Premiership season kicks off around the end of August/very start of September. In a World Cup year, it usually kicks off in late October to minimise the disruption of the world cup, and normally sacrifices some other tournament (i.e. the Premiership cup equivalent) to make it all work. We don't know when it'll kick off in 2023 yet.