That a was a bit of a pish game but I'm glad I avoided the score.
Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:42 pm
Just finished watching, pretty chuffed with that.
Front 5 can compete in the scrum with anyone, although strangely feel a little lightweight around the park - Cummings was superb.
Back row - pretty decent, Ritchie was brilliant (Bolter?) Hamish did his thing. We need an 8.
Hastings looked grand when he came on, he looked under a lot of pressure last week but calmed down today.
Centres- don’t really know what to say. Harries was decent, Lang came good in the last quarter but it’s all a bit meh.
Couple of points. Bloody love Hoggy and also live him as skipper. Had a good game today but is he getting a little conservative? Not a criticism today as he was great.
I’m afraid we still have to speak about Jonny. I know, I know, he does all the right things but I just want a bit more.
Overall. Very chuffed with that. Teams will hate playing is which is great
Agree with all of that and with whoever above mentioned taking Graham off.
Was anything mentioned about Horne not being on bench?
So we end up 4th. A bit disappointing, but there you have it.
I wasn’t confident before this game, but I’m wondering now. If we could find a reliable 8, light a fire under Jonny’s backside, and actually get some of our centres fit and firing, we might - whisper it - have a side capable of challenging?
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:42 pm
Just finished watching, pretty chuffed with that.
Front 5 can compete in the scrum with anyone, although strangely feel a little lightweight around the park - Cummings was superb.
Back row - pretty decent, Ritchie was brilliant (Bolter?) Hamish did his thing. We need an 8.
Hastings looked grand when he came on, he looked under a lot of pressure last week but calmed down today.
Centres- don’t really know what to say. Harries was decent, Lang came good in the last quarter but it’s all a bit meh.
Couple of points. Bloody love Hoggy and also live him as skipper. Had a good game today but is he getting a little conservative? Not a criticism today as he was great.
I’m afraid we still have to speak about Jonny. I know, I know, he does all the right things but I just want a bit more.
Overall. Very chuffed with that. Teams will hate playing is which is great
Good summary. I actually think we looked better with Hastings at 10.
Hogg should have thrown the dummy at bigger and he was likely in or at worst on a 2-1 with 1/2p, agree he is too conservative now but I also have felt for a while now he has lost a yard or t we o of pace.
Chuffed with the win however it came, monkey off the back and if we hadn’t had the coin toss of a day against England with the weather - you never know might have topped the table
Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:42 pm
Just finished watching, pretty chuffed with that.
Front 5 can compete in the scrum with anyone, although strangely feel a little lightweight around the park - Cummings was superb.
Back row - pretty decent, Ritchie was brilliant (Bolter?) Hamish did his thing. We need an 8.
Hastings looked grand when he came on, he looked under a lot of pressure last week but calmed down today.
Centres- don’t really know what to say. Harries was decent, Lang came good in the last quarter but it’s all a bit meh.
Couple of points. Bloody love Hoggy and also live him as skipper. Had a good game today but is he getting a little conservative? Not a criticism today as he was great.
I’m afraid we still have to speak about Jonny. I know, I know, he does all the right things but I just want a bit more.
Overall. Very chuffed with that. Teams will hate playing is which is great
Good summary. I actually think we looked better with Hastings at 10.
Hogg should have thrown the dummy at bigger and he was likely in or at worst on a 2-1 with 1/2p, agree he is too conservative now but I also have felt for a while now he has lost a yard or t we o of pace.
Chuffed with the win however it came, monkey off the back and if we hadn’t had the coin toss of a day against England with the weather - you never know might have topped the table
Hogg’s not long turned 28. If he’s already losing a yard of pace then we’re all in trouble.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:42 pm
Just finished watching, pretty chuffed with that.
Front 5 can compete in the scrum with anyone, although strangely feel a little lightweight around the park - Cummings was superb.
Back row - pretty decent, Ritchie was brilliant (Bolter?) Hamish did his thing. We need an 8.
Hastings looked grand when he came on, he looked under a lot of pressure last week but calmed down today.
Centres- don’t really know what to say. Harries was decent, Lang came good in the last quarter but it’s all a bit meh.
Couple of points. Bloody love Hoggy and also live him as skipper. Had a good game today but is he getting a little conservative? Not a criticism today as he was great.
I’m afraid we still have to speak about Jonny. I know, I know, he does all the right things but I just want a bit more.
Overall. Very chuffed with that. Teams will hate playing is which is great
Good summary. I actually think we looked better with Hastings at 10.
Hogg should have thrown the dummy at bigger and he was likely in or at worst on a 2-1 with 1/2p, agree he is too conservative now but I also have felt for a while now he has lost a yard or t we o of pace.
Chuffed with the win however it came, monkey off the back and if we hadn’t had the coin toss of a day against England with the weather - you never know might have topped the table
Hogg’s not long turned 28. If he’s already losing a yard of pace then we’re all in trouble.
Notwithstanding the lack of massive wins, the fact that the worst result this year was a 7 point defeat to the winners is damned encouraging, as is the ability of the team to close out this match despite the loss of both stand-offs.
Last edited by charltom on Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hogg is a better player now than he was two or more years ago, I haven't put a stop watch on him but he doesn't look to be slower - Olympic sprinters hit their peak in their mid to late 20s
The big point for me to take away is that in the last week we have bullied Georgia and Wales up front. This tight five could build into something,
Kebble, Rambo and Bergs don't lose you anything coming on as replacements, likewise the top choices of 2nd row subs - Toolis, Skinner, Gray, Gilchrist.
Biffer wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:39 pm
By the way, where are all the guys who were saying there was no way we'd maul it as effectively against Wales as we did against Georgia?
Right here.
The scars of the gatland era evidently led me to conclude that we couldn't do that against Wales (too obvious a set play and advertised en masse the week before). Thank God for the pivac era.
And on the 7th day, the Lord said "Let there be Finn Russell".
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:06 am
Hogg is a better player now than he was two or more years ago, I haven't put a stop watch on him but he doesn't look to be slower - Olympic sprinters hit their peak in their mid to late 20s
The big point for me to take away is that in the last week we have bullied Georgia and Wales up front. This tight five could build into something,
Kebble, Rambo and Bergs don't lose you anything coming on as replacements, likewise the top choices of 2nd row subs - Toolis, Skinner, Gray, Gilchrist.
He is certainly far more composed and his positional play is better, what I don’t see is him burning people in attack coming into the line but that could be tactical as much as anything.
He is certainly bulkier now, it just appears to me he isn’t as quick as he once was.
Agree completely on the front row, second row not as convinced, would love a AWJ or POC in there. The guys are solid but we are missing a guy like AWJ that can stamp his authority in the tight and at line outs.
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:06 am
Hogg is a better player now than he was two or more years ago, I haven't put a stop watch on him but he doesn't look to be slower - Olympic sprinters hit their peak in their mid to late 20s
The big point for me to take away is that in the last week we have bullied Georgia and Wales up front. This tight five could build into something,
Kebble, Rambo and Bergs don't lose you anything coming on as replacements, likewise the top choices of 2nd row subs - Toolis, Skinner, Gray, Gilchrist.
He is certainly far more composed and his positional play is better, what I don’t see is him burning people in attack coming into the line but that could be tactical as much as anything.
He is certainly bulkier now, it just appears to me he isn’t as quick as he once was.
Agree completely on the front row, second row not as convinced, would love a AWJ or POC in there. The guys are solid but we are missing a guy like AWJ that can stamp his authority in the tight and at line outs.
Scott Cummings is the real deal. Powerful, dynamic. Gets it.
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:06 am
Hogg is a better player now than he was two or more years ago, I haven't put a stop watch on him but he doesn't look to be slower - Olympic sprinters hit their peak in their mid to late 20s
The big point for me to take away is that in the last week we have bullied Georgia and Wales up front. This tight five could build into something,
Kebble, Rambo and Bergs don't lose you anything coming on as replacements, likewise the top choices of 2nd row subs - Toolis, Skinner, Gray, Gilchrist.
He is certainly far more composed and his positional play is better, what I don’t see is him burning people in attack coming into the line but that could be tactical as much as anything.
He is certainly bulkier now, it just appears to me he isn’t as quick as he once was.
Agree completely on the front row, second row not as convinced, would love a AWJ or POC in there. The guys are solid but we are missing a guy like AWJ that can stamp his authority in the tight and at line outs.
Scott Cummings is the real deal. Powerful, dynamic. Gets it.
I agree. Right now he is the best lock we have and the most likely to be a Lion next year. Also if you look at his kick chase deep in the second half after Wales scored their penalty, he had the gas and stamina to run up with the backs and arrive at the kick receipt when there was still a ruck to contest. To do that at that stage of the game was monumental.
Good collection of guys with the physical tools. Still not sure who the leaders are, and that’s what you sometimes need when you’re up against it (see AWJ).
I thought we played the conditions well and were by far the better team on the day. I also think that Townsend had selected a team for the conditions, practised the gameplan against Georgia, and in Laing and Harris he picked 2 defensive minded big centres to make midfield more solid and compact. He also picked Kinghorn on wing because there would be lots of box kicks in the wind and VdM is not the best under the high ball defensively. He also got the tactics spot on and for a change we strangled and dominated a poor Wales pack. Ritchie and Watson dominated the breakdown.
Watching with my son we struggled to pick who in Wales team we would pick for team in place of their opposite number - possible Adams instead of Kinghorn? We also struggled to think which of the Welsh team put their hand up for a Lions spot. Even Gatland would have struggled to pick one. Wales are in a period of transition. They don't have a front row yet, AWJ is 2-3 years beyond his best, Halfpenny is past it and their centres were off the pace.
Even in a 10 minute cameo VdM scared the shit out of the welsh defence, he is going to be a real asset going forward.
Good summary. I actually think we looked better with Hastings at 10.
Hogg should have thrown the dummy at bigger and he was likely in or at worst on a 2-1 with 1/2p, agree he is too conservative now but I also have felt for a while now he has lost a yard or t we o of pace.
Chuffed with the win however it came, monkey off the back and if we hadn’t had the coin toss of a day against England with the weather - you never know might have topped the table
Hogg’s not long turned 28. If he’s already losing a yard of pace then we’re all in trouble.
Pro rugby, innit, fucks their bodies.
Plus he has packed on a power of upper body weight.
Hogg is still an elusive runner, but I think we are seeing that (and his pace) less because teams are well aware of the threat he brings and focus on him. One of the great things about having him and Finn in the side is that the opposition have two things to worry about.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:05 am
Hogg is still an elusive runner, but I think we are seeing that (and his pace) less because teams are well aware of the threat he brings and focus on him. One of the great things about having him and Finn in the side is that the opposition have two things to worry about.
And then you've got Darcy and Duhan to chuck in as well; you could see it in the Georgia game, they had two or three players on Duhan which made space elsewhere, now just to find some centre-upgrades
It seems to me we are a team with a more than solid scrum, and a half decent line out. We seem to have adapted to the new breakdown policing well and have a nice blend in the back 5.
Our defence is looking strong and we are not panicking. Attack hasn’t been top notch but we do look like a team that is a couple of games away from it clicking, you can see the potential to improve assuming Finn and Hastings are not out for a while.
Restarts are still a very frustrating issue.
I know we get this hope cyclically but I think we have to be thinking about winning this Autumn Series thing.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Slick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:00 am
Looking ahead.
It seems to me we are a team with a more than solid scrum, and a half decent line out. We seem to have adapted to the new breakdown policing well and have a nice blend in the back 5.
Our defence is looking strong and we are not panicking. Attack hasn’t been top notch but we do look like a team that is a couple of games away from it clicking, you can see the potential to improve assuming Finn and Hastings are not out for a while.
Restarts are still a very frustrating issue.
I know we get this hope cyclically but I think we have to be thinking about winning this Autumn Series thing.
Funnily enough, if the weather is like this through the autumn and the gameplan is to turn Scotland into a dark-blue England with a dominant forward pack and two additional forwards in the centres, Duncan Weir will be a pretty good match for the fly half role.
Ultimately, of course, this newfound forward bosh should allow for more effective expansive backs play, rather than the controlled chaos approach that sometimes worked (Calcutta Cup, oh sweet memories) but more often did not.
Slick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:00 am
Looking ahead.
It seems to me we are a team with a more than solid scrum, and a half decent line out. We seem to have adapted to the new breakdown policing well and have a nice blend in the back 5.
Our defence is looking strong and we are not panicking. Attack hasn’t been top notch but we do look like a team that is a couple of games away from it clicking, you can see the potential to improve assuming Finn and Hastings are not out for a while.
Restarts are still a very frustrating issue.
I know we get this hope cyclically but I think we have to be thinking about winning this Autumn Series thing.
Funnily enough, if the weather is like this through the autumn and the gameplan is to turn Scotland into a dark-blue England with a dominant forward pack and two additional forwards in the centres, Duncan Weir will be a pretty good match for the fly half role.
Ultimately, of course, this newfound forward bosh should allow for more effective expansive backs play, rather than the controlled chaos approach that sometimes worked (Calcutta Cup, oh sweet memories) but more often did not.
Yes, I’m not as worried as I once would have been about Weir coming in. But if we want the full game on show he isn’t the guy
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:42 pm
Just finished watching, pretty chuffed with that.
Front 5 can compete in the scrum with anyone, although strangely feel a little lightweight around the park - Cummings was superb.
Back row - pretty decent, Ritchie was brilliant (Bolter?) Hamish did his thing. We need an 8.
Hastings looked grand when he came on, he looked under a lot of pressure last week but calmed down today.
Centres- don’t really know what to say. Harries was decent, Lang came good in the last quarter but it’s all a bit meh.
Couple of points. Bloody love Hoggy and also live him as skipper. Had a good game today but is he getting a little conservative? Not a criticism today as he was great.
I’m afraid we still have to speak about Jonny. I know, I know, he does all the right things but I just want a bit more.
Overall. Very chuffed with that. Teams will hate playing is which is great
This is a great summary of my thoughts too.
The only part I disagree with is the Jonny bit.
I think he's fine as is, and if we do get that extra bit of aggression I wonder if he'll lost something somewhere else. He strikes me as the kind of player that makes others around him look better.
That said I accept I'm in the minority here, I think his Exeter move will do him well.
dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:53 am
I thought we played the conditions well and were by far the better team on the day. I also think that Townsend had selected a team for the conditions, practised the gameplan against Georgia, and in Laing and Harris he picked 2 defensive minded big centres to make midfield more solid and compact. He also picked Kinghorn on wing because there would be lots of box kicks in the wind and VdM is not the best under the high ball defensively. He also got the tactics spot on and for a change we strangled and dominated a poor Wales pack. Ritchie and Watson dominated the breakdown.
Watching with my son we struggled to pick who in Wales team we would pick for team in place of their opposite number - possible Adams instead of Kinghorn? We also struggled to think which of the Welsh team put their hand up for a Lions spot. Even Gatland would have struggled to pick one. Wales are in a period of transition. They don't have a front row yet, AWJ is 2-3 years beyond his best, Halfpenny is past it and their centres were off the pace.
Even in a 10 minute cameo VdM scared the shit out of the welsh defence, he is going to be a real asset going forward.
Liam Williams and Josh Adams are two of the best wingers in the NH. Williams was really good yesterday but Adams didn't get much involved. Also Taulupe Faletau - Blade Thomson was absolutely mince. AWJ still gets in the Scotland team too.
Wales don't have many great players and without Gatland their good players are just good rather than great internationals.
dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:54 am
Oh ... and Scott Cummings is the real deal and was the best 2nd row on the park.
He got a 6/10 in the ST
Oh, and according to the Walrus, France were bartering us at Murrayfield and we only won because of the sending off.
This shite from everyone outside Scotland used to piss me off, just makes me laugh now
Won't read the article but 6/10 could have been the best second row on the park. Most ratings have him at a 6 or 7 from what I've read. I don't think anyone in the tight 5 was outstanding, they were good and solid which I'm fine with.
Last edited by Big D on Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:42 pm
Just finished watching, pretty chuffed with that.
Front 5 can compete in the scrum with anyone, although strangely feel a little lightweight around the park - Cummings was superb.
Back row - pretty decent, Ritchie was brilliant (Bolter?) Hamish did his thing. We need an 8.
Hastings looked grand when he came on, he looked under a lot of pressure last week but calmed down today.
Centres- don’t really know what to say. Harries was decent, Lang came good in the last quarter but it’s all a bit meh.
Couple of points. Bloody love Hoggy and also live him as skipper. Had a good game today but is he getting a little conservative? Not a criticism today as he was great.
I’m afraid we still have to speak about Jonny. I know, I know, he does all the right things but I just want a bit more.
Overall. Very chuffed with that. Teams will hate playing is which is great
This is a great summary of my thoughts too.
The only part I disagree with is the Jonny bit.
I think he's fine as is, and if we do get that extra bit of aggression I wonder if he'll lost something somewhere else. He strikes me as the kind of player that makes others around him look better.
That said I accept I'm in the minority here, I think his Exeter move will do him well.
Gray is a bit like Darren Fletcher was for the football team. Making other players look good at club level but we need more from them at international level. The main area for me is carrying, he needs to be a bit better there, but that is a common thing with our forwards.
Zander has fulfilled his potential, he is a beast in the scrum, bar one lapse of concentration yesterday.
He carries like an ox and he hits rucks better than anyone in the team, he'll pinch you a turnover or two as well.
dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:54 am
Oh ... and Scott Cummings is the real deal and was the best 2nd row on the park.
He got a 6/10 in the ST
Oh, and according to the Walrus, France were bartering us at Murrayfield and we only won because of the sending off.
This shite from everyone outside Scotland used to piss me off, just makes me laugh now
Won't read the article but 6/10 could have been the best second row on the park. Most ratings have him at a 6 or 7 from what I've read. I don't think anyone in the tight 5 was outstanding, they were good and solid which I'm fine with.
Both Gray and AWJ got 7 in this one. Maybe I’m overdoing it but thought he was excellent yesterday
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:02 pm
Zander has fulfilled his potential, he is a beast in the scrum, bar one lapse of concentration yesterday.
He carries like an ox and he hits rucks better than anyone in the team, he'll pinch you a turnover or two as well.
One thing he has to watch, and it is only a wee thing, is often our back row have assessed that there is no chance of slowing the ball down and moved to guard and then he hits the ruck for no real reason and a very low likelihood of a counter ruck. Just set D line and pick a better opportunity.
I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:24 pm
Has it been pointed out here that Scotland conceded the fewest points of any team in the six nations this year?
Fair f*cking play Steve Tandy. LN and the others who wanted Taylor out fair enough as well.
The Taylor out bandwagon was one we weren't jumping off :-)
It has been a good start for Tandy, bigger tests ahead now people can see what of defensive gameplan is but it is miles ahead of Taylor.
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:02 pm
Zander has fulfilled his potential, he is a beast in the scrum, bar one lapse of concentration yesterday.
He carries like an ox and he hits rucks better than anyone in the team, he'll pinch you a turnover or two as well.
One thing he has to watch, and it is only a wee thing, is often our back row have assessed that there is no chance of slowing the ball down and moved to guard and then he hits the ruck for no real reason and a very low likelihood of a counter ruck. Just set D line and pick a better opportunity.
I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:24 pm
Has it been pointed out here that Scotland conceded the fewest points of any team in the six nations this year?
Fair f*cking play Steve Tandy. LN and the others who wanted Taylor out fair enough as well.
The Taylor out bandwagon was one we weren't jumping off :-)
It has been a good start for Tandy, bigger tests ahead now people can see what of defensive gameplan is but it is miles ahead of Taylor.
I think Tandy is helped that the attacking gameplan is no longer attack from everywhere but kick the corners and structured attack. Turnover ball is always dangerous and Scotland used to cough it up so often.
I think it's fair to say that all really good teams are built on a foundation of a solid pack, functioning set-piece, and doing the simple things well every time. If you have these things then they will win you games, so some sides never progress much beyond it.
What we had a couple of years ago was a style where we kept trying to run the ball without having 'earned' the right to do so. You might say that's a French approach - but France are legendarily erratic. They can always beat anyone on their day, but are equally prone to not showing up at all. Sound at all familiar?
We've changed the focus and now we are trying to be the first kind of team - and it's working. We are defensively solid, our pack is working, our rucking is superb. A lot of the unforced errors have been eliminated. Yes, some of the annoyances like restarts persist, but overall we are much better organised, much more reliable, and much harder to beat.
The problem is that this has come at a cost, and we're no longer seeing the expansive and spectacular rugby we were. That's partly because we haven't had Russell in the team much, but even so, when you look at our (apparently first choice) current centre pairing, you know they're in there because they fit our game plan, not because they will please the fans.
Truly great teams (OK, NZ and sometimes SA) manage to marry the solid foundation to an exciting running game. I assume this is what Toony aspires to. We certainly have the backs to do it, and it would be a real shame to waste them. But after what we've all been through over the last two decades, if the price of a winning team is that we're duller to watch, then I'm willing to pay it.
EDIT: TOTM has just tweeted that Chris Harris has the highest winning percentage of any Scotland player with >20 caps in the last 90 years (65%). I sort of hate this stat, but it doesn't really surprise me and it certainly fits with our change of style.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
Thought Harris played well yesterday in what was an attritional day, I’m willing to concede that he is developing into a decent international player. His centre partner I am less happy with.
I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:24 pm
Has it been pointed out here that Scotland conceded the fewest points of any team in the six nations this year?
Fair f*cking play Steve Tandy. LN and the others who wanted Taylor out fair enough as well.
The Taylor out bandwagon was one we weren't jumping off :-)
It has been a good start for Tandy, bigger tests ahead now people can see what of defensive gameplan is but it is miles ahead of Taylor.
I think Tandy is helped that the attacking gameplan is no longer attack from everywhere but kick the corners and structured attack. Turnover ball is always dangerous and Scotland used to cough it up so often.
But he's definitely doing well.
One thing about that fastest rugby in the world attack from anywhere thing was that even when it worked, we had a fifteen or twenty minute sweet spot and were hanging on a bit apart from that. Look at any of the games; Calcutta Cup, Wales, Ireland, New Zealand even to an extent gibbing Australia, we ripped them apart for fifteen or twenty minutes and scored two or three tries. It was a whirlwind that disoriented teams. If we can build this dogged aggressive, hard to score against base, then letting that mayhem loose at the right time could be an incredibly exciting and successful way to play. Can we do both with the same players? Well, many of them are the same ones, so here’s hoping.
