The Official English Rugby Thread

[SaintK]

Equally, having athletic gifts, while obviously helpful, isn't the same as being a good rugby player. There's a reason Carlin Isles and Perry Baker have focused on 7s where their raw speed counts for much more than it would in the full version of the game where other learned skills would be of greater importance.

I was just thinking that as I read the posts.

Freddie Owsley is ridiculously quick, though not quick enough to make it as a top level 400m runner. He made fools of the Brive back three for Edinburgh last season, yet he never broke through at Bristol and there are a few Embra supporters who don't think he's a rugby player.

For me the jury is still out on him, as with others, having that pace is a good place to start.

Edinburgh are desperately trying to offload him. Pace is not the be all and end all.

But when you have pace and skills like Radwan and Arundell......wow!!!

[sockwithaticket]

To be fair to Ugu, I'm guessing the argument would be that If you had 100 kids with exceptional pace taking up the game, you'd find a handful with the tools you need to make it as a rounded player.

Sock nailed it with the first problem with the argument though. Most of these kids either won't want to play rugby or it's not on their radar at all. And that's a really hard problem to solve. The sport just doesn't have the penetration required at the moment to appeal in enough cases. You would have to be introduced to it in school in most cases and if your state school doesn't play it in any serious way, the sport's not going to get a foot in the door.

We had a teacher who was really into fencing, so he ran a fencing club. Quite a few kids from our school ended up in the Scottish Schools team and were successful at championships because the teacher was also a good coach.
Same for table tennis, our music teacher and one of the French teachers loved the sport, so coached it at lunch times.
Ours was a state school and the PE teacher hated football, but we had good rugby teams.

I really wanted to do judo but we had no way into the sport and the city was too far away.

I'm not sure this ad hoc, pot luck approach has changed much in the decades since I was at school.

The state school I taught at as recently as 2015 had a rugby team, but it was an after school club and thus volunteers only rather than a mandatory sport for the school (hard to do at secondary level in co-ed PE classes).

It only existed because of an enthusiastic member of staff who was willing to run it and - crucially - the school actually had some field space on which to play and train.

Plus it was in a fairly middle class catchment in the South East with a scattering of Quins and London Irish supporters among the students.

It was about as good an environment as you'll find in a standard state school for rugby to bed in but they could only run one year 10/11 combined boys team.

[Hugo]

The sport just doesn't have the penetration required at the moment to appeal in enough cases.

This is the curious thing. When all is said and done rugby is a pretty obscure sport and nothing has ever changed that. Mainstream/casual interest peaks every year during the 6N but it does not have any sort of "needle moving", transformative effect on the popularity of rugby during the rest of the year and does not as you say see it penetrate all walks of life.

[Margin__Walker]

To be fair to Ugu, I'm guessing the argument would be that If you had 100 kids with exceptional pace taking up the game, you'd find a handful with the tools you need to make it as a rounded player.

Sock nailed it with the first problem with the argument though. Most of these kids either won't want to play rugby or it's not on their radar at all. And that's a really hard problem to solve. The sport just doesn't have the penetration required at the moment to appeal in enough cases. You would have to be introduced to it in school in most cases and if your state school doesn't play it in any serious way, the sport's not going to get a foot in the door.

We had a teacher who was really into fencing, so he ran a fencing club. Quite a few kids from our school ended up in the Scottish Schools team and were successful at championships because the teacher was also a good coach.
Same for table tennis, our music teacher and one of the French teachers loved the sport, so coached it at lunch times.
Ours was a state school and the PE teacher hated football, but we had good rugby teams.

I really wanted to do judo but we had no way into the sport and the city was too far away.

I'm not sure this ad hoc, pot luck approach has changed much in the decades since I was at school.

We had a similar thing. State School. A teacher with a lot of drive who was into weightlifting. Started an after school weightlifting club in the crappy temporary classroom that he also taught in. Kids pretty quickly started winning national age group titles and he then secured a lottery grant to build a small weightlifting gym attached to the school. They then went on to eventually produce commonwealth games medallists etc.

A mate of mine who live over the road had a real fire lit under him by it. Was a shy kid lacking self confidence, but went on to win age grade titles, compete competitively and build a good career in the fitness industry. I doubt he'd have had any exposure to the sport if it hadn't been for that one teacher.

[mos_eisely_]

Apparently Mercer has signed for Gloucester

[Kawazaki]

I posted this over the road. What do you think are the most important ingredients for a pro rugby club to remain solvent going forward?

Wasps should speak to Ealing. Ealing Wasps Trailfinders is a bit of a mouthful but it is a merger that kills two birds with one stone. Just the small problem of needing to convince the Ealing owner to stump up the cash to pay HMRC. I'm sure Saracens would let them use the StoneX Stadium until they can find somewhere else to play. This is a long-shot though and in all likelyhood, Wasps are finished as a pro club. Same for Worcester.

I hope Sale and Newcastle are in decent financial shape.


What would a "financially durable" English Premiership table look like? I guess this score would be a combination of crowd size/stadium ownership/owner wealth/income streams/debt etc;

My guess would look something like this (score out of 100);

Bristol 100 (no debt, excellent stadium, superb training ground, large fan base, wealthiest owner)
Leicester 95 (good stadium, large fan base, big brand)
Exeter 93 (good stadium, diversified income streams, large fan base, no football competition)
Northampton 92 (good stadium, large fan base)
Harlequins 90 (good stadium, wealthy fan base, big brand)
Saracens 88 (ok stadium, wealthy owners)
Gloucester 85 (ok stadium, large fan base, no football competition)
Bath 80 (wealthy owner, committed fan base, no football competition, big brand)
Sale 70 (good stadium, potentially large fan base)
Newcastle 66 (ok stadium, potentially large fan base)
London Irish 55 (good brand)

>>daylight>>

>>more daylight>>

Wasps 20 (huge debt, huge liabilities, good brand)
Worcester 20 (good stadium, huge debt, complicated asset structure, poor track record)

[SaintK]

I posted this over the road. What do you think are the most important ingredients for a pro rugby club to remain solvent going forward?

Wasps should speak to Ealing. Ealing Wasps Trailfinders is a bit of a mouthful but it is a merger that kills two birds with one stone. Just the small problem of needing to convince the Ealing owner to stump up the cash to pay HMRC. I'm sure Saracens would let them use the StoneX Stadium until they can find somewhere else to play. This is a long-shot though and in all likelyhood, Wasps are finished as a pro club. Same for Worcester.

I hope Sale and Newcastle are in decent financial shape.


What would a "financially durable" English Premiership table look like? I guess this score would be a combination of crowd size/stadium ownership/owner wealth/income streams/debt etc;

My guess would look something like this (score out of 100);

Bristol 100 (no debt, excellent stadium, superb training ground, large fan base, wealthiest owner)
Leicester 95 (good stadium, large fan base, big brand)
Exeter 93 (good stadium, diversified income streams, large fan base, no football competition)
Northampton 92 (good stadium, large fan base)
Harlequins 90 (good stadium, wealthy fan base, big brand)
Saracens 88 (ok stadium, wealthy owners)
Gloucester 85 (ok stadium, large fan base, no football competition)
Bath 80 (wealthy owner, committed fan base, no football competition, big brand)
Sale 70 (good stadium, potentially large fan base)
Newcastle 66 (ok stadium, potentially large fan base)
London Irish 55 (good brand)

>>daylight>>

>>more daylight>>

Wasps 20 (huge debt, huge liabilities, good brand)
Worcester 20 (good stadium, huge debt, complicated asset structure, poor track record)

Interesting and wouldn't disagree with much of that.
None of the clubs actually make a profit and are "heavily subsidised" by their owners. Even when Exeter made a profit in the past, Rowe had written of long term debts. Should imagine all the clubs have Covid support debts to repay. Choppy waters ahead for those clubs who don't/can't fill their stadia.

[Margin__Walker]

What I don't understand why the fuck Worcester were signing the likes of DvdM and Sutherland as late as last summer.

No relegation for the next couple of seasons and the writing must have been on the wall to an extent. Absolutely no need to be signing expensive players like that.

[sockwithaticket]

New Wasps kit is decent, assuming we get to run out in it we'll at least look good.

[Kawazaki]

It looks like at least one club will not make the start of the Premiership, perhaps two.

I hope this at least puts to bed to argument about relegation. Remove it permanently, let the clubs plan properly from the bottom with the academy without worrying about relegation. Give investors long-term security to build. The club owners have put £hundreds of millions into English Rugby with little to no incentive to do so.

[JM2K6]

We should stop pretending we can compete financially with France and Ireland at the same time as trying to run a sane business. Yes, that means we'll keep losing in Europe. That's life for >80% of English clubs at the moment anyway.

[Paddington Bear]

What I don't understand why the fuck Worcester were signing the likes of DvdM and Sutherland as late as last summer.

No relegation for the next couple of seasons and the writing must have been on the wall to an extent. Absolutely no need to be signing expensive players like that.

Strikes me as a bit of a gamble from the owners. Buy a few big names and see if that causes a miraculous turnaround in form, if it doesn't you're going to asset strip the club so you'll get your money back anyway.

[Kawazaki]

Interesting paragraph for Wasps fans to consider;

Speaking of the Vunipolas, they were up for renewal this year and settled for reduced terms to keep alive their England prospects. That, however, made it tougher to retain Vincent Koch. At the time, a source close to the negotiations told Telegraph Sport that Saracens “did all they could to keep him” but “could not get near” what Wasps put in front of the World Cup-winner.

https://archive.ph/IEYXc

[SaintK]

Interesting paragraph for Wasps fans to consider;

Speaking of the Vunipolas, they were up for renewal this year and settled for reduced terms to keep alive their England prospects. That, however, made it tougher to retain Vincent Koch. At the time, a source close to the negotiations told Telegraph Sport that Saracens “did all they could to keep him” but “could not get near” what Wasps put in front of the World Cup-winner.

https://archive.ph/IEYXc

As it should be

As an official squad update outlined this month, 42 players have come through the Northampton academy to the senior ranks. Among the latest graduates, watch out for Josh Weru, Jake Garside, Tom Litchfield and George Hendy.

[I like neeps]

I posted this over the road. What do you think are the most important ingredients for a pro rugby club to remain solvent going forward?

Wasps should speak to Ealing. Ealing Wasps Trailfinders is a bit of a mouthful but it is a merger that kills two birds with one stone. Just the small problem of needing to convince the Ealing owner to stump up the cash to pay HMRC. I'm sure Saracens would let them use the StoneX Stadium until they can find somewhere else to play. This is a long-shot though and in all likelyhood, Wasps are finished as a pro club. Same for Worcester.

I hope Sale and Newcastle are in decent financial shape.


What would a "financially durable" English Premiership table look like? I guess this score would be a combination of crowd size/stadium ownership/owner wealth/income streams/debt etc;

My guess would look something like this (score out of 100);

Bristol 100 (no debt, excellent stadium, superb training ground, large fan base, wealthiest owner)
Leicester 95 (good stadium, large fan base, big brand)
Exeter 93 (good stadium, diversified income streams, large fan base, no football competition)
Northampton 92 (good stadium, large fan base)
Harlequins 90 (good stadium, wealthy fan base, big brand)
Saracens 88 (ok stadium, wealthy owners)
Gloucester 85 (ok stadium, large fan base, no football competition)
Bath 80 (wealthy owner, committed fan base, no football competition, big brand)
Sale 70 (good stadium, potentially large fan base)
Newcastle 66 (ok stadium, potentially large fan base)
London Irish 55 (good brand)

>>daylight>>

>>more daylight>>

Wasps 20 (huge debt, huge liabilities, good brand)
Worcester 20 (good stadium, huge debt, complicated asset structure, poor track record)

Sorry to cut in... Really interesting post - I'd consider Bath at 100 though. Wealthy owner, huge brand, wealthy fans who still sell out at extortionate prices despite the team being awful!

[SaintK]

Any of you involved with community rugby in London and SE whose pitch is currently unplayable and where no contact training has taken might want to read this.
https://rise.articulate.com/share/bo0i ... 1OQS2#/

[JM2K6]

I posted this over the road. What do you think are the most important ingredients for a pro rugby club to remain solvent going forward?

Wasps should speak to Ealing. Ealing Wasps Trailfinders is a bit of a mouthful but it is a merger that kills two birds with one stone. Just the small problem of needing to convince the Ealing owner to stump up the cash to pay HMRC. I'm sure Saracens would let them use the StoneX Stadium until they can find somewhere else to play. This is a long-shot though and in all likelyhood, Wasps are finished as a pro club. Same for Worcester.

I hope Sale and Newcastle are in decent financial shape.


What would a "financially durable" English Premiership table look like? I guess this score would be a combination of crowd size/stadium ownership/owner wealth/income streams/debt etc;

My guess would look something like this (score out of 100);

Bristol 100 (no debt, excellent stadium, superb training ground, large fan base, wealthiest owner)
Leicester 95 (good stadium, large fan base, big brand)
Exeter 93 (good stadium, diversified income streams, large fan base, no football competition)
Northampton 92 (good stadium, large fan base)
Harlequins 90 (good stadium, wealthy fan base, big brand)
Saracens 88 (ok stadium, wealthy owners)
Gloucester 85 (ok stadium, large fan base, no football competition)
Bath 80 (wealthy owner, committed fan base, no football competition, big brand)
Sale 70 (good stadium, potentially large fan base)
Newcastle 66 (ok stadium, potentially large fan base)
London Irish 55 (good brand)

>>daylight>>

>>more daylight>>

Wasps 20 (huge debt, huge liabilities, good brand)
Worcester 20 (good stadium, huge debt, complicated asset structure, poor track record)

Sorry to cut in... Really interesting post - I'd consider Bath at 100 though. Wealthy owner, huge brand, wealthy fans who still sell out at extortionate prices despite the team being awful!

The stadium is a massive problem.

[fishfoodie]

I posted this over the road. What do you think are the most important ingredients for a pro rugby club to remain solvent going forward?

Wasps should speak to Ealing. Ealing Wasps Trailfinders is a bit of a mouthful but it is a merger that kills two birds with one stone. Just the small problem of needing to convince the Ealing owner to stump up the cash to pay HMRC. I'm sure Saracens would let them use the StoneX Stadium until they can find somewhere else to play. This is a long-shot though and in all likelyhood, Wasps are finished as a pro club. Same for Worcester.

I hope Sale and Newcastle are in decent financial shape.


What would a "financially durable" English Premiership table look like? I guess this score would be a combination of crowd size/stadium ownership/owner wealth/income streams/debt etc;

My guess would look something like this (score out of 100);

Bristol 100 (no debt, excellent stadium, superb training ground, large fan base, wealthiest owner)
Leicester 95 (good stadium, large fan base, big brand)
Exeter 93 (good stadium, diversified income streams, large fan base, no football competition)
Northampton 92 (good stadium, large fan base)
Harlequins 90 (good stadium, wealthy fan base, big brand)
Saracens 88 (ok stadium, wealthy owners)
Gloucester 85 (ok stadium, large fan base, no football competition)
Bath 80 (wealthy owner, committed fan base, no football competition, big brand)
Sale 70 (good stadium, potentially large fan base)
Newcastle 66 (ok stadium, potentially large fan base)
London Irish 55 (good brand)

>>daylight>>

>>more daylight>>

Wasps 20 (huge debt, huge liabilities, good brand)
Worcester 20 (good stadium, huge debt, complicated asset structure, poor track record)

Sorry to cut in... Really interesting post - I'd consider Bath at 100 though. Wealthy owner, huge brand, wealthy fans who still sell out at extortionate prices despite the team being awful!

At a certain point in time; a shockingly bad coach, & a dire team record, become a liability, when it comes to recruiting the top class players you want, because they will want to play Top class club, & International rugby, & EJ won't always be there to pick Bath players, regards of how shite they're playing.

[Margin__Walker]

In the latest in English rugby nepotism news, Tyler Offiah (son of Martin) is knocking around playing u18s for LI. Just turned 16 and played four games, scoring in every one. One to keep an eye out for in a few years.

[Raggs]

In the latest in English rugby nepotism news, Tyler Offiah (son of Martin) is knocking around playing u18s for LI. Just turned 16 and played four games, scoring in every one. One to keep an eye out for in a few years.

Well that'll get swing low going again.

[Margin__Walker]

In the latest in English rugby nepotism news, Tyler Offiah (son of Martin) is knocking around playing u18s for LI. Just turned 16 and played four games, scoring in every one. One to keep an eye out for in a few years.

Well that'll get swing low going again.

Yeah, for sure.

Watched the game Quins/LI game yesterday on youtube. Was a fun watch and wish a few more clubs would stream their U18 games.

[Hal Jordan]

The new England kit is fucking minging. Umbro shite.

[Kawazaki]

The new England kit is fucking minging. Umbro shite.

[sockwithaticket]

Does anyone actually look at this stuff before signing it off?

[Hal Jordan]

To be fair, the away kit isn't hideous, it has a sort of " Meh non-vintage Saracens kit" feel about it (a vintage Sarries kit is a great thing to behold, see 2013/14 and 2019/20 as examples).

It's the home shirt, it looks like they let Tom Williams back on the field after trying to wash out the blood. It ain't going to do those of a more ample width any favours, either.

[Kawazaki]

Rugby shirts have collars. The best ones are basically robust Polo shirts. These things are polyester t-shirts.

[SaintK]

Is this it? All decent community clubs at the lower levels will already be doing most of the things mentioned.

An injection of around £1 million will propel the RFU’s multi-faceted solution. This cash will be taken from the union’s financial surplus forecast, generated by staging four of England’s autumn internationals and three Six Nations encounters at Twickenham over the coming season.

“We might have slightly less to spend in the next couple of years, but it needs spending now,” Grainger adds. “You wouldn’t want to say in two years’ time: ‘If only.'”

At club level, volunteers and returning players will be rewarded. Recruitment via social media will be encouraged, with Grainger suggesting that players could track down five ex-teammates on Facebook. If two can be persuaded back into the sport, that would be a big win. Finally, clubs will be challenged to think about making their environment as welcoming as possible. The odd free meal or a bit of kit tend to go a long way and all nine of these projects will be pushed over the coming weeks.

Does the twat not realise that most clubs are doing these things already.
As for linking up[ with local universities, my club had a formal agreement with University of Hertfordshire that was bearing fruit until our local Nat 1 team came along and started offering "incentives" to the best players which we would not compete with
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2 ... ugby%2F

[Kawazaki]

The RFU have said they will plough £220m into the women's Premiership over the next decade.

Why? I'd wager that figure will be more than every other Union in the world will spend on professional women's rugby combined by a factor of at least 3 in the same period. Funds that will be wholly generated by men's rugby as well. Keep women's rugby amateur and let it grow and evolve naturally. Having a fully professional England women's team beating other nations who don't have any professional players is not even sport.

How many RDOs could £220m pay for over 10 years? 400?

[Paddington Bear]

The RFU have said they will plough £220m into the women's Premiership over the next decade.

Why? I'd wager that figure will be more than every other Union in the world will spend on professional women's rugby combined by a factor of at least 3 in the same period. Funds that will be wholly generated by men's rugby as well. Keep women's rugby amateur and let it grow and evolve naturally. Having a fully professional England women's team beating other nations who don't have any professional players is not even sport.

How many RDOs could £220m pay for over 10 years? 400?

Not convinced that they're going to be able to do this without swingeing cuts elsewhere.

[SaintK]

The RFU have said they will plough £220m into the women's Premiership over the next decade.

Why? I'd wager that figure will be more than every other Union in the world will spend on professional women's rugby combined by a factor of at least 3 in the same period. Funds that will be wholly generated by men's rugby as well. Keep women's rugby amateur and let it grow and evolve naturally. Having a fully professional England women's team beating other nations who don't have any professional players is not even sport.

How many RDOs could £220m pay for over 10 years? 400?

Not convinced that they're going to be able to do this without swingeing cuts elsewhere.

Due to previous financial mismanagment and then Covid shutdown they have very little more to cut.....other than the ransom that PRL demand annually

[Paddington Bear]

Is this it? All decent community clubs at the lower levels will already be doing most of the things mentioned.

An injection of around £1 million will propel the RFU’s multi-faceted solution. This cash will be taken from the union’s financial surplus forecast, generated by staging four of England’s autumn internationals and three Six Nations encounters at Twickenham over the coming season.

“We might have slightly less to spend in the next couple of years, but it needs spending now,” Grainger adds. “You wouldn’t want to say in two years’ time: ‘If only.'”

At club level, volunteers and returning players will be rewarded. Recruitment via social media will be encouraged, with Grainger suggesting that players could track down five ex-teammates on Facebook. If two can be persuaded back into the sport, that would be a big win. Finally, clubs will be challenged to think about making their environment as welcoming as possible. The odd free meal or a bit of kit tend to go a long way and all nine of these projects will be pushed over the coming weeks.

Does the twat not realise that most clubs are doing these things already.
As for linking up[ with local universities, my club had a formal agreement with University of Hertfordshire that was bearing fruit until our local Nat 1 team came along and started offering "incentives" to the best players which we would not compete with
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2 ... ugby%2F

Interesting article with a lot going on. FWIW on the two points you raise I think social media recruitment comes in a lot of forms and a lot of sports clubs think a general 'anyone fancy playing?' or 'open to new players' counts, which it doesn't. It needs to be very targeted, personal and sustained to have any hope of working. People ignore group messages. This from a village cricket club in Kent is an example of doing it right, it takes a hell of a lot of effort though. https://www.samuelcork.com/work/shipbourne-cricket-club

The Uni tie up is an interesting one, and as someone who was a student in Hampshire I was broadly keen to play for a local club but didn't want to be the only student there, ended up putting it off then it never happened. There's a lot of slack in the system there and has potential.

Coach developers will be deployed to clubs identified as needing more help to retain players and the third top-level proposal is the opportunity to adopt flexible laws in order to complete a match. Known as ‘Game On’, and predominantly targeting second- and third-teams and lower, this could mean uncontested scrums and line-outs or even teams being reduced to 10 players.

This is positive - I'd suggest rolling subs as well. There's probably a few people persuadable to play 30 minutes who won't commit to 80. Understanding that 3rd XV rugby isn't really a pathway to Twickenham and is about having fun should be baked into the leagues.

“In first XV league rugby, those matches will predominantly get played because those are the mark of the club,” Grainger explains. “First-teams are needing more and more players – it’s not uncommon for one to use 50 players in a season. Each time players get drafted up, they are losing players from second and third teams. Roughly one in three across the season of lower-XV matches doesn’t happen. That’s for a whole host of reasons – illness, Covid, an unplayable pitch, a stag-do at the club.”

No getting around this - people will not commit to a league season in the way they used to. Probably the only solution is a shortened season but I don't think it's a silver bullet.

[inactionman]

Apparently Mercer has signed for Gloucester

Confirmed

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62723463

[inactionman]

Some sadist thought the first televised league match of 22/23 should be Bath away at Bristol on Bath on Friday, will probably set the tone for both sides for the rest of the season - either some worrying trends will have been eradicated, or they won't

Noises from Bath's camp is that there is a much better atmosphere and focus upon team spirit which was one of a number of troublesome aspects last time round.

It can't be as bad as last season. Can it?

[Kawazaki]

It can't be as bad as last season. Can it?

“Stuart Hooper will continue in his role as Director of Rugby.”

[SaintK]

It can't be as bad as last season. Can it?

“Stuart Hooper will continue in his role as Director of Rugby.”

............but with no responsibility for coaching or the senior squad

[fishfoodie]

It can't be as bad as last season. Can it?

“Stuart Hooper will continue in his role as Director of Rugby.”

............but with no responsibility for coaching or the senior squad

Which one of the Ball boys is taking over ?

[sockwithaticket]

Listened to van Graan last night on the BBC pod. Sorry, Bath fans. I think you might lose less, but his philosophy on how to play rugby, what's important, was uninspiring to say the least.

[inactionman]

Listened to van Graan last night on the BBC pod. Sorry, Bath fans. I think you might lose less, but his philosophy on how to play rugby, what's important, was uninspiring to say the least.

It's telling that a lot of Munster fans weren't that disappointed to see him go - if I infer correctly, it seems he's good at getting basics sorted, but then the gameplan remains pretty basic.

Wondering therefore if he's in for a few seasons for just that reason - steady the ship, which is currently listing quite badly. Well, let's be honest, it's on the rocks.

I'm torn on it, we've had far too many changes in coaching for any stability or consistency, so you'd hope he was in with a longer-term vision in mind. The team under Ford was outstanding to watch but he pissed off too many people, and Blackadder was - to a certain extent - undone by Matson's untimely departure. Hoping van Graan doesn't have any such issues.

Ultimately, we've played poorly, lost good players off the back of all the shenanigans and there's a real malaise over the club so I'd be content with anyone who can get that sorted. Joe Maddock is attack coach, which might at least make some of the back play adventurous.

[sockwithaticket]

Listened to van Graan last night on the BBC pod. Sorry, Bath fans. I think you might lose less, but his philosophy on how to play rugby, what's important, was uninspiring to say the least.

It's telling that a lot of Munster fans weren't that disappointed to see him go - if I infer correctly, it seems he's good at getting basics sorted, but then the gameplan remains pretty basic.

Wondering therefore if he's in for a few seasons for just that reason - steady the ship, which is currently listing quite badly. Well, let's be honest, it's on the rocks.

I'm torn on it, we've had far too many changes in coaching for any stability or consistency, so you'd hope he was in with a longer-term vision in mind. The team under Ford was outstanding to watch but he pissed off too many people, and Blackadder was - to a certain extent - undone by Matson's untimely departure. Hoping van Graan doesn't have any such issues.

Ultimately, we've played poorly, lost good players off the back of all the shenanigans and there's a real malaise over the club so I'd be content with anyone who can get that sorted. Joe Maddock is attack coach, which might at least make some of the back play adventurous.

Given the state of the club there's certainly merit to having someone come in whose focus is purely to stabilise everything and you need to have basics in place before anything fancier can be attempted. van Graan just sounded ever so South African talking about defence and set piece. That sort of style can be effective, but you wouldn't want it to come at the expense of club identity. Bath are meant to be a fun team to watch. Hopefully Maddock can have an influential enough voice in the coaching set up to ensure that remains the case.

[inactionman]

Teams are up



THE OPPOSITION
15 Charles Piutau, 14 Luke Morahan, 13 Piers O'Conor, 12 Sam Bedlow, 11 Rich Lane, 10 Callum Sheedy, 9 Harry Randall; 1 Ellis Genge, 2 Bryan Byrne, 3 Kyle Sinckler, 4 Joe Joyce, 5 Chris Vui, 6 Sam Jefferies, 7 Jake Heenan (c), 8 Magnus Bradbury

REPLACEMENTS
16 Will Capon, 17 Jake Woolmore, 18 Max Lahiff, 19 Ed Holmes, 20 Sam Lewis, 21 Andy Uren, 22 AJ MacGinty, 23 Jack Bates