NPR

Brazil wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:49 am

Kiwias wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:43 am Am I the only one who thinks that the Taliban fighters wandering around the Presidential palace are far better behaved than the insurrectionists who stormed the US Capitol on 6 January?

Well the insurrectionists in the Capitol didn't face having their hands cut off if they got the upholstery dirty, so that might be a factor.

FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:17 am

Kiwias wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:43 am Am I the only one who thinks that the Taliban fighters wandering around the Presidential palace are far better behaved than the insurrectionists who stormed the US Capitol on 6 January?

Except for the part where they burn off girls faces for going to school. Or rape young boys. What a weird comment to make.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:06 am Sad to watch. Strikes me that fundamentally the Americans don't have the stomach for what being a superpower means in reality, yet another lost war for them.

Think it's possible to overdo the Vietnam comparisons - ARVN fought on pretty manfully after the US withdrawal until the plug was pulled on air support which their entire doctrine was built around. ANA has surrendered with barely a shot fired and was hardly ever any use.

Should have gone in, struck hard at the hardest line Taliban and attempted to find leaders willing to keep Afghan from being a terror training camp. Nation building was always doomed to failure.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:06 am Sad to watch. Strikes me that fundamentally the Americans don't have the stomach for what being a superpower means in reality, yet another lost war for them.

Think it's possible to overdo the Vietnam comparisons - ARVN fought on pretty manfully after the US withdrawal until the plug was pulled on air support which their entire doctrine was built around. ANA has surrendered with barely a shot fired and was hardly ever any use.

Should have gone in, struck hard at the hardest line Taliban and attempted to find leaders willing to keep Afghan from being a terror training camp. Nation building was always doomed to failure.

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:17 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:06 am Sad to watch. Strikes me that fundamentally the Americans don't have the stomach for what being a superpower means in reality, yet another lost war for them.

Think it's possible to overdo the Vietnam comparisons - ARVN fought on pretty manfully after the US withdrawal until the plug was pulled on air support which their entire doctrine was built around. ANA has surrendered with barely a shot fired and was hardly ever any use.

Should have gone in, struck hard at the hardest line Taliban and attempted to find leaders willing to keep Afghan from being a terror training camp. Nation building was always doomed to failure.

The trouble with that is that, whenever Taliban were put under pressure, they would retreat over the border to Pakistan where they would be looked after by their friends and mentors in the ISI.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:06 am Should have gone in, struck hard at the hardest line Taliban and attempted to find leaders willing to keep Afghan from being a terror training camp. Nation building was always doomed to failure.

Brazil wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:22 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:06 am Should have gone in, struck hard at the hardest line Taliban and attempted to find leaders willing to keep Afghan from being a terror training camp. Nation building was always doomed to failure.

They could have done that before - Ahmed Shah Massoud was asking for assistance from the CIA for a long time, and warning them about what was going on in Afghanistan, but they turned a blind eye before it was too late, and he was assassinated just before 9/11. Now there appears to be no chance of turning it round because the militias that fought the Taliban first time round were undermined by the imposition of western structures that fell apart the second they were put to the test. Even Dostum's given up and fucked off to Uzbekistan, so it's difficult to see where any resistance to the Taliban will come from in the short to medium term.

I agree about the Yanks. This has an end of Empire feel to it, and its noticeable that as the West flees China and Russia are staying put, safe in the knowledge they will get whatever they want out of the Taliban provided they turn a blind eye to the crimes they commit. Meanwhile the West has utterly embarrassed itself and shown it no longer has the stomach for the fight, whilst given the likes of China the green light to pursue belt and road with impunity. The Neocon's hubristic interventionist vision has been completely and utterly shown up.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:27 am UK defence secretary breaking down in tears on national TV saying we've failed people.

Hope the foreign sec is enjoying his break. Sorry slick but a bit of a poor showing from yer man.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:27 am UK defence secretary breaking down in tears on national TV saying we've failed people.

Hope the foreign sec is enjoying his break. Sorry slick but a bit of a poor showing from yer man.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:37 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:27 am UK defence secretary breaking down in tears on national TV saying we've failed people.

Hope the foreign sec is enjoying his break. Sorry slick but a bit of a poor showing from yer man.

What's he supposed to say?

We've lost the war. Our agency to win it was always highly dubious. We probably last had the theoretical ability to stablise a nation of this scale 40ish years ago. All the while we were fighting a very hot war in Helmand the political class was cutting the military and therefore it's capability to do anything. They are fundamentally unserious.
We can't get everyone out because the Afghan state has crumbled at the first sign of pressure. The US is the only totally independent actor here, let's stop deluding ourselves as to what we could and can achieve.

Parliament is being recalled so expect a shitshow of nonsense as people move our fictional deployable division around on a map of Central Asia and 'something must be done' resounds around Westminster just as it did when we had an Empire. Reminds me of the debate on sending four jets to conduct no risk airstrikes over Syria as lightweights on all sides cosplayed the Norway debate.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:34 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:27 am UK defence secretary breaking down in tears on national TV saying we've failed people.

Hope the foreign sec is enjoying his break. Sorry slick but a bit of a poor showing from yer man.

No argument from me.

I normally have a bit of sympathy for Ministers getting calls to come back from holiday at the slightest problem, but this is really the biggest foreign policy test since he got the job.

Trumps calling out of Biden is about as mad as it gets. No surprise there then.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:44 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:37 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:27 am UK defence secretary breaking down in tears on national TV saying we've failed people.

Hope the foreign sec is enjoying his break. Sorry slick but a bit of a poor showing from yer man.

What's he supposed to say?

We've lost the war. Our agency to win it was always highly dubious. We probably last had the theoretical ability to stablise a nation of this scale 40ish years ago. All the while we were fighting a very hot war in Helmand the political class was cutting the military and therefore it's capability to do anything. They are fundamentally unserious.
We can't get everyone out because the Afghan state has crumbled at the first sign of pressure. The US is the only totally independent actor here, let's stop deluding ourselves as to what we could and can achieve.

Parliament is being recalled so expect a shitshow of nonsense as people move our fictional deployable division around on a map of Central Asia and 'something must be done' resounds around Westminster just as it did when we had an Empire. Reminds me of the debate on sending four jets to conduct no risk airstrikes over Syria as lightweights on all sides cosplayed the Norway debate.

The recalling of Parliament actually made me feel a bit sick. What the fuck is that going to achieve apart from hours of virtue signalling from cunts who haven't given a fuck for years.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:50 am Also if the slightly cynical objective for the UK in going into Afghan was to keep our credit up with the US as an ally and military auxiliary we totally blew it in Helmand (I don't blame the army for this the fact was our leaders were too cheap and timid to send the necessary amount of troops and risk the casualties).

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:37 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:27 am UK defence secretary breaking down in tears on national TV saying we've failed people.

Hope the foreign sec is enjoying his break. Sorry slick but a bit of a poor showing from yer man.

What's he supposed to say?

We've lost the war. Our agency to win it was always highly dubious. We probably last had the theoretical ability to stablise a nation of this scale 40ish years ago. All the while we were fighting a very hot war in Helmand the political class was cutting the military and therefore it's capability to do anything. They are fundamentally unserious.
We can't get everyone out because the Afghan state has crumbled at the first sign of pressure. The US is the only totally independent actor here, let's stop deluding ourselves as to what we could and can achieve.

Parliament is being recalled so expect a shitshow of nonsense as people move our fictional deployable division around on a map of Central Asia and 'something must be done' resounds around Westminster just as it did when we had an Empire. Reminds me of the debate on sending four jets to conduct no risk airstrikes over Syria as lightweights on all sides cosplayed the Norway debate.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:34 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:27 am UK defence secretary breaking down in tears on national TV saying we've failed people.

Hope the foreign sec is enjoying his break. Sorry slick but a bit of a poor showing from yer man.

No argument from me.

I normally have a bit of sympathy for Ministers getting calls to come back from holiday at the slightest problem, but this is really the biggest foreign policy test since he got the job.

Trumps calling out of Biden is about as mad as it gets. No surprise there then.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:58 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:37 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:27 am UK defence secretary breaking down in tears on national TV saying we've failed people.

Hope the foreign sec is enjoying his break. Sorry slick but a bit of a poor showing from yer man.

What's he supposed to say?

We've lost the war. Our agency to win it was always highly dubious. We probably last had the theoretical ability to stablise a nation of this scale 40ish years ago. All the while we were fighting a very hot war in Helmand the political class was cutting the military and therefore it's capability to do anything. They are fundamentally unserious.
We can't get everyone out because the Afghan state has crumbled at the first sign of pressure. The US is the only totally independent actor here, let's stop deluding ourselves as to what we could and can achieve.

Parliament is being recalled so expect a shitshow of nonsense as people move our fictional deployable division around on a map of Central Asia and 'something must be done' resounds around Westminster just as it did when we had an Empire. Reminds me of the debate on sending four jets to conduct no risk airstrikes over Syria as lightweights on all sides cosplayed the Norway debate.

He should have been back doing all he can (admittedly little) to help the people we need to get out of there. And be the figurehead of the response to yes the defeat.

This is a political crises, you've got to show your face if you're in charge of the govt branch that the crises covers.

Brazil wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:55 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:50 am Also if the slightly cynical objective for the UK in going into Afghan was to keep our credit up with the US as an ally and military auxiliary we totally blew it in Helmand (I don't blame the army for this the fact was our leaders were too cheap and timid to send the necessary amount of troops and risk the casualties).

I'm not sure that was the UK's objective. Blair was getting into his messianic swing at the time and was convinced that both Afghanistan and Iraq could be repeats of Kosovo. Also, I don't think the UK suffered reputationally in Helmand or Afghanistan where in terms of combat the forces acquitted themselves well under the circumstances. The loss of reputation was in Iraq where the top brass overstretched and the Yanks had to bail us out in Basra.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:14 am
This wildly overestimates the British Government's ability to influence events. Beyond being 'not a good look', Raab cutting short his holiday offers nothing.

Brazil wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:22 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:14 am
This wildly overestimates the British Government's ability to influence events. Beyond being 'not a good look', Raab cutting short his holiday offers nothing.

We've still got personnel on the ground there don't forget, both diplomatic, military and presumably associated with humanitarian aid. It's his department that's responsible for getting them back safely, so to just fuck off on holiday when the shit was heading fanwards at a rate of knots is unforgivable.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:36 am

Brazil wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:22 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:14 am
This wildly overestimates the British Government's ability to influence events. Beyond being 'not a good look', Raab cutting short his holiday offers nothing.

We've still got personnel on the ground there don't forget, both diplomatic, military and presumably associated with humanitarian aid. It's his department that's responsible for getting them back safely, so to just fuck off on holiday when the shit was heading fanwards at a rate of knots is unforgivable.

Agree with this - government from the PM downwards should be blasting through walls to bring people home and overcome any Home Office fuckwittery about giving people who cooperated with the UK visas.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:06 am TO be fair the the FCO that is now what appears to be happening - also a big airlift is underway.

The airport look like absolute mayhem though - runway choked with desperate Afgans

A student at Loughborough University who flew out to Afghanistan for a holiday has said that he has “accepted death” as Taliban fighters today streamed into Kabul.

Miles Routledge, 21, from Birmingham, claims that he has been abandoned by the British embassy, who he says have not responded to any of his phone calls or emails.

The physics student, who is in a United Nations (UN) safehouse in Kabul, having arrived in the country this week described chaotic scenes in the capital, where dead bodies lay in the street.

Some were attempting to flee the city with all of their possessions in their car, while others queued outside banks fearing that their savings might be lost.

Convoys of armed Taliban fighters drove through the city today he said with no resistance from the army. Routledge said he was confronted by the insurgents this morning when he attempted to go to the airport.

When they asked him where he was from he told them he was from Wales rather than tell them he was British. As he had hoped, the fighters did not know where Wales was and let him go.

He later came across another armed convoy with whom he took a selfie on one of their gun emplacements.
Routledge in Kabul on Friday. He said that he knew travelling was a “gamble”

Earlier today Routledge moved to a safehouse being operated by the UN, where about 50 others, including Britons, Americans and Turks, are also staying. He hopes to be able to fly to Albania in the coming days.

He told The Times that he made the ill-advised decision to come to Afghanistan after watching tourism videos on YouTube. When the Taliban insurgency began he found he was unable to refund his flights so decided to travel anyway.

Routledge, who has spent a summer interning at a wealth management firm, said: “I like risk, I’m a banker, so it makes sense.

“I hate lying around on a beach so I wanted to do something a little bit different. After graduating I’ll have a full-time job and maybe a family so won’t have the opportunity to do things like this again. I thought [Afghanistan] looked quite nice, the food seemed amazing and it was dirt cheap.”

Upon arrival, however, he soon regretted his visit. He said he had accepted the possibility that he might die in Afghanistan and in a message addressed to friends on social media, wrote: “I’ve bitten off more than I can chew and something has not gone to plan resulting in this situation. There was no convincing me otherwise and I knew the risks, it was a gamble I took that went wrong despite my confidence and jokes.”

He has been documenting his trip on Twitch, the live streaming platform, and on 4chan, the message board site.

The Foreign Office did not respond immediately to a request for comment.

Routledge, who has spent a summer interning at a wealth management firm, said: “I like risk, I’m a banker, so it makes sense.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:40 am All fun and games until the Paras have to go into the shit to get him out.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:31 am And then there is this dickhead:

A student at Loughborough University who flew out to Afghanistan for a holiday has said that he has “accepted death” as Taliban fighters today streamed into Kabul.

Miles Routledge, 21, from Birmingham, claims that he has been abandoned by the British embassy, who he says have not responded to any of his phone calls or emails.

The physics student, who is in a United Nations (UN) safehouse in Kabul, having arrived in the country this week described chaotic scenes in the capital, where dead bodies lay in the street.

Some were attempting to flee the city with all of their possessions in their car, while others queued outside banks fearing that their savings might be lost.

Convoys of armed Taliban fighters drove through the city today he said with no resistance from the army. Routledge said he was confronted by the insurgents this morning when he attempted to go to the airport.

When they asked him where he was from he told them he was from Wales rather than tell them he was British. As he had hoped, the fighters did not know where Wales was and let him go.

He later came across another armed convoy with whom he took a selfie on one of their gun emplacements.
Routledge in Kabul on Friday. He said that he knew travelling was a “gamble”

Earlier today Routledge moved to a safehouse being operated by the UN, where about 50 others, including Britons, Americans and Turks, are also staying. He hopes to be able to fly to Albania in the coming days.

He told The Times that he made the ill-advised decision to come to Afghanistan after watching tourism videos on YouTube. When the Taliban insurgency began he found he was unable to refund his flights so decided to travel anyway.

Routledge, who has spent a summer interning at a wealth management firm, said: “I like risk, I’m a banker, so it makes sense.

“I hate lying around on a beach so I wanted to do something a little bit different. After graduating I’ll have a full-time job and maybe a family so won’t have the opportunity to do things like this again. I thought [Afghanistan] looked quite nice, the food seemed amazing and it was dirt cheap.”

Upon arrival, however, he soon regretted his visit. He said he had accepted the possibility that he might die in Afghanistan and in a message addressed to friends on social media, wrote: “I’ve bitten off more than I can chew and something has not gone to plan resulting in this situation. There was no convincing me otherwise and I knew the risks, it was a gamble I took that went wrong despite my confidence and jokes.”

He has been documenting his trip on Twitch, the live streaming platform, and on 4chan, the message board site.

The Foreign Office did not respond immediately to a request for comment.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:20 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:06 am Sad to watch. Strikes me that fundamentally the Americans don't have the stomach for what being a superpower means in reality, yet another lost war for them.

Think it's possible to overdo the Vietnam comparisons - ARVN fought on pretty manfully after the US withdrawal until the plug was pulled on air support which their entire doctrine was built around. ANA has surrendered with barely a shot fired and was hardly ever any use.

Should have gone in, struck hard at the hardest line Taliban and attempted to find leaders willing to keep Afghan from being a terror training camp. Nation building was always doomed to failure.

As far as I can tell the vast majority of their military strength is tactically unprepared for asymmetrical warfare while the public and thus the politicians don't have the stomach for the bodycount that would likely have ensued from pursuing the Taliban with vigour and purpose from the outset. The Taliban needed to be exterminated if installing a new government in Afghanistan was to work.

Kiwias wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:27 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:06 am TO be fair the the FCO that is now what appears to be happening - also a big airlift is underway.

The airport look like absolute mayhem though - runway choked with desperate Afgans

PM Ardern announced that the NZ govt would be sending a C130 (I think so) with perhaps some SAS in attendance to rescue Afghans who had cooperated with NZ forces over there during the last 20 years. Now to get it done.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:48 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:31 am And then there is this dickhead:

A student at Loughborough University who flew out to Afghanistan for a holiday has said that he has “accepted death” as Taliban fighters today streamed into Kabul.

Miles Routledge, 21, from Birmingham, claims that he has been abandoned by the British embassy, who he says have not responded to any of his phone calls or emails.

The physics student, who is in a United Nations (UN) safehouse in Kabul, having arrived in the country this week described chaotic scenes in the capital, where dead bodies lay in the street.

Some were attempting to flee the city with all of their possessions in their car, while others queued outside banks fearing that their savings might be lost.

Convoys of armed Taliban fighters drove through the city today he said with no resistance from the army. Routledge said he was confronted by the insurgents this morning when he attempted to go to the airport.

When they asked him where he was from he told them he was from Wales rather than tell them he was British. As he had hoped, the fighters did not know where Wales was and let him go.

He later came across another armed convoy with whom he took a selfie on one of their gun emplacements.
Routledge in Kabul on Friday. He said that he knew travelling was a “gamble”

Earlier today Routledge moved to a safehouse being operated by the UN, where about 50 others, including Britons, Americans and Turks, are also staying. He hopes to be able to fly to Albania in the coming days.

He told The Times that he made the ill-advised decision to come to Afghanistan after watching tourism videos on YouTube. When the Taliban insurgency began he found he was unable to refund his flights so decided to travel anyway.

Routledge, who has spent a summer interning at a wealth management firm, said: “I like risk, I’m a banker, so it makes sense.

“I hate lying around on a beach so I wanted to do something a little bit different. After graduating I’ll have a full-time job and maybe a family so won’t have the opportunity to do things like this again. I thought [Afghanistan] looked quite nice, the food seemed amazing and it was dirt cheap.”

Upon arrival, however, he soon regretted his visit. He said he had accepted the possibility that he might die in Afghanistan and in a message addressed to friends on social media, wrote: “I’ve bitten off more than I can chew and something has not gone to plan resulting in this situation. There was no convincing me otherwise and I knew the risks, it was a gamble I took that went wrong despite my confidence and jokes.”

He has been documenting his trip on Twitch, the live streaming platform, and on 4chan, the message board site.

The Foreign Office did not respond immediately to a request for comment.

He's as much a banker as I am a surgeon after applying a plaster to a moderately deep cut.

Saw a reddit post about this story, someone claiming to be a fellow Loughborough student said he was a pretty well known there as an attention seeking bellend. Certainly tracks with his being a 4chan user...

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:55 pm

assfly wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:23 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:42 am It's one of those places on Earth where it's just better to pretend doesn't exist and stay clear.

Terrible attitude to start with, and also it doesn't work. The world is a small place when it comes to geopolitics, and failed states have knock-on effects to the region and the globe.

No matter what you do in Afghanistan & how much you try to help, they stab you and each in the back eventually. They're a hopeless case.

Let them heard camels and their women in the dirt, don't try to bring them into the wider global family. They just take the money from whoever hands it out at the time. It's a symbol of pride to them to take money from stupid foreigners, promise to make changes and then get back to whatever they were brutalising before the briefcase showed up.

They are about 500 years behind even the worst African states and propping up their archaic way of life with endless invasions and back-handers won't change anything.

The only thing that might work is Climate Change, where it bakes them out of their shitty desert completely and fragments their myriad of barbaric tribes across the rest of Asia. The result is they finally aren't a target for the next idiot who wants to sell weapons and start wars using them as fodder.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:08 am Plugged this on the Book thread a while back but worth mentioning again how good I thought Afgantsy was as a history of the Russian war. Always struck me that a lot of the Muhajideen old hands who also fought for the Taliban had far more respect for the Soviets than they did for the Americans. Of course there's an element of 'in my day' as well as men of extreme violence respecting the same, but an interesting observation nonetheless.

FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:11 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:08 am Plugged this on the Book thread a while back but worth mentioning again how good I thought Afgantsy was as a history of the Russian war. Always struck me that a lot of the Muhajideen old hands who also fought for the Taliban had far more respect for the Soviets than they did for the Americans. Of course there's an element of 'in my day' as well as men of extreme violence respecting the same, but an interesting observation nonetheless.

You don't think the coalition forces actions in Afghanistan constituted extreme violence?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:40 am All fun and games until the Paras have to go into the shit to get him out.