Abortion. Pro or anti?.

[Happyhooker]

Colour me surprised that a discussion over the rights of women and their bodily autonomy should turn into a bunch of white guys arguing semantics over a graph.

What would expect it to do on this forum?

[weegie01]

Is this true? I thought we are past peak cropland?
https://ourworldindata.org/peak-agriculture-land
Screenshot_20220601-212722.png
The second largest food exporter in the world is the Netherlands and that land has been farmed for 100s of years.

Firstly, as the article you took that graph from points out, the total amount of agricultural land is falling, cropland is not.

Beneath this global picture there are a range of national patterns of land use. Many countries have passed this peak, but there are some where agricultural land is still increasing.

This is especially true of croplands, which are still expanding globally.

https://ourworldindata.org/land-use

The article also makes the point many others do that agricultural production is rising so we are fine. It is that simplistic view that means we are sleep walking to disaster.

There is no question that some food crops are now being produced in innovative, less land intensive ways, like hydroponics. None of these so far are a silver bullet. Hydroponics, greenhouses etc do allow very efficient production of certain foods. But although there are gains to be made from controlling the environment, these remain relatively expensive methods of growing compared to just sticking a seed in the ground. The bulk crops that provide most of the calories humanity uses either can't be grown by these methods, or can't be economically. So unless someone comes up with something revolutionary, we are stuck prairies of wheat etc.

The point I am making is that to achieve these gains in production, we are consuming the fertile capital that took aeons to develop, and we cannot keep doing so. Here is an article from the BBC that covers some of what I am talking about.

https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/foll ... rom-farms/

The Netherlands is fairly unimportant in terms of calorie exports. It is second highest agricultural exporter by value due to the large volume of high value flowers and ornamental live plants it exports. Plus high value vegetables. The majority of which are grown in greenhouses, which gets back the point I made above. There are alternatives to cropland, but they mostly work for high value, low volume crops.

If you watched it, there was a throwaway line in 'Clarkson's Farm' '.......there are only 100 harvests left'. It was not discussed on the programme, but may be expanded on in the next series as he, like many other farmers, has brought cattle back onto his arable farm. The mixed farming of the past is making a comeback in the UK, updated with modern science and techniques, precisely because farmers are seeing the impact of modern intensive methods and are going back to the past when mixed farming allowed soil to be fertilised naturally.

[Torquemada 1420]

Maybe you are just being wilfully obtuse or maybe you simply can't grasp the issue. We are in the midst of the population explosion i.e. precisely when it started is a complete sideshow. The planet is already massively overpopulated with humans. It's irrelevant now whether the rate of acceleration is declining: it's still +ve which means every addition is another problem.

Now all you've got to do is show how we have an overpopulation problem. Rather than an economic one.

I'll have a stab. I'm perhaps not as forthright on it as Torq, but I have come to think we've got a good 2 - 3 billion people more than is desirable if we intend to keep the planet habitable unless everyone massively drops their expectations around living standards (constant hot and running cold water, as much power on demand as we like, being able to buy mangos in the super market all year round, etc.).

Insect and animal populations the world over are suffering massively due largely to habitat destruction, either for settlement or economic activity. They are still at the heart of a lot of agriculture, whether we like it or not. Particularly insects. There's all sorts of unintended consequences to things just vanishing out of food chainsMore equitable sharing of resources among the current global population doesn't fill the oceans back up or restore pollinators to the numbers of previous decades. Even if we stopped polluting and poisoning, so much habitat has been chopped down and built on or used to grow food. Then there's climate change.

Close to 8 billion people has an ecological impact that I'm not sure is compatible with an earth people (or anything else bar single cell organisms and cockroaches) can live on.

Yup. What these white middle class Westerners ^^^^ can't contemplate from their privileged ivory towers is that the overwhelming majority of the population (> 90%) lives in standards a light year away from theirs (maybe get out a bit more, eh lads?). Once their demands on resources come anywhere near what we are consuming/wasting, the acceleration of the death of the planet will attain warp speed.

I am more to the left of that number at 1-2 bn.

[Torquemada 1420]

The article also makes the point many others do that agricultural production is rising so we are fine.

Yeah. F**k anything else.

And, of course, 7 billion people are going to live on cornburgers whilst living in single rooms in high rise flats with no white goods or transport?

[Happyhooker]

Now all you've got to do is show how we have an overpopulation problem. Rather than an economic one.

I'll have a stab. I'm perhaps not as forthright on it as Torq, but I have come to think we've got a good 2 - 3 billion people more than is desirable if we intend to keep the planet habitable unless everyone massively drops their expectations around living standards (constant hot and running cold water, as much power on demand as we like, being able to buy mangos in the super market all year round, etc.).

Insect and animal populations the world over are suffering massively due largely to habitat destruction, either for settlement or economic activity. They are still at the heart of a lot of agriculture, whether we like it or not. Particularly insects. There's all sorts of unintended consequences to things just vanishing out of food chainsMore equitable sharing of resources among the current global population doesn't fill the oceans back up or restore pollinators to the numbers of previous decades. Even if we stopped polluting and poisoning, so much habitat has been chopped down and built on or used to grow food. Then there's climate change.

Close to 8 billion people has an ecological impact that I'm not sure is compatible with an earth people (or anything else bar single cell organisms and cockroaches) can live on.

Yup. What these white middle class Westerners ^^^^ can't contemplate from their privileged ivory towers is that the overwhelming majority of the population (> 90%) lives in standards a light year away from theirs (maybe get out a bit more, eh lads?). Once their demands on resources come anywhere near what we are consuming/wasting, the acceleration of the death of the planet will attain warp speed.

I am more to the left of that number at 1-2 bn.

This post is brought to you by a man who once had a meeting with his garden lighting consultant in a central London pub.

Ffs torq, condescend much??

[Raggs]

Now all you've got to do is show how we have an overpopulation problem. Rather than an economic one.

I'll have a stab. I'm perhaps not as forthright on it as Torq, but I have come to think we've got a good 2 - 3 billion people more than is desirable if we intend to keep the planet habitable unless everyone massively drops their expectations around living standards (constant hot and running cold water, as much power on demand as we like, being able to buy mangos in the super market all year round, etc.).

Insect and animal populations the world over are suffering massively due largely to habitat destruction, either for settlement or economic activity. They are still at the heart of a lot of agriculture, whether we like it or not. Particularly insects. There's all sorts of unintended consequences to things just vanishing out of food chainsMore equitable sharing of resources among the current global population doesn't fill the oceans back up or restore pollinators to the numbers of previous decades. Even if we stopped polluting and poisoning, so much habitat has been chopped down and built on or used to grow food. Then there's climate change.

Close to 8 billion people has an ecological impact that I'm not sure is compatible with an earth people (or anything else bar single cell organisms and cockroaches) can live on.

Yup. What these white middle class Westerners ^^^^ can't contemplate from their privileged ivory towers is that the overwhelming majority of the population (> 90%) lives in standards a light year away from theirs (maybe get out a bit more, eh lads?). Once their demands on resources come anywhere near what we are consuming/wasting, the acceleration of the death of the planet will attain warp speed.

I am more to the left of that number at 1-2 bn.

I'm glad to see you're starting to understand this is an economics issue, rather than a population one.

Which 1-2bn do you think are most likely to go out of the population? Those wasting a ton of resources, or those barely using them? This is an economics issue, rather than a population one at this time. There's already more than enough food produced to feed everyone, and for the most part, that's not being produced with the best methods that would allow for even more. Nuclear and renewables can remove a massive demand for fossil fuels. Re-greening deserts is also achievable (and has been achieved), which will even place food more easily into the hands of those that more often need it. All of these things can be achieved, with money, but instead we have billionaires and millionaires hoarding wealth doing nothing. If we already produce enough food to feed 1.5x the population, before re-greening and improving technologies, there's also enough habitable land for every person to get acres each (again, before re-greening projects, though that wouldn't have a huge difference). Ignoring the fact that large numbers (and hell, even just families) are happy to live together in far more dense environments than that.

Our population is not the issue, our economics are.

[Biffer]

For those that are concerned about population rises, I’m sure you can enlighten us on the best way to reduce population growth?

[weegie01]

For those that are concerned about population rises, I’m sure you can enlighten us on the best way to reduce population growth?

Mass sterilisation of poor people works for me.

Before a problem can be solved, it must be recognised there is a problem.

I can't see any simple, globally acceptable way of reducing the population. That does not mean we should not raise the issue and discuss it. The more it is discussed, the more likely it is that it will enter the debate of what we need to do to ensure the sustainability of the human population on the planet, which may lead to workable solutions. Though I do not have a scooby what they would be.

[Guy Smiley]

Colour me surprised that a discussion over the rights of women and their bodily autonomy should turn into a bunch of white guys arguing semantics over a graph.

What would expect it to do on this forum?

I've spent my adult life expecting great things from my fellow humans... compassion, empathy, curiosity, humility and among many others things, a childlike charm and fascination in the wonders of the universe.

My expectations leave me bruised, battered and bleeding in the face of reality.


Every time.

[inactionman]

For those that are concerned about population rises, I’m sure you can enlighten us on the best way to reduce population growth?

Historically, wars and diseases.

[Happyhooker]

Colour me surprised that a discussion over the rights of women and their bodily autonomy should turn into a bunch of white guys arguing semantics over a graph.

What would expect it to do on this forum?

I've spent my adult life expecting great things from my fellow humans... compassion, empathy, curiosity, humility and among many others things, a childlike charm and fascination in the wonders of the universe.

My expectations leave me bruised, battered and bleeding in the face of reality.


Every time.

No, it's driving a moped off a cliff that does that

[Happyhooker]

Mass sterilisation of poor people works for me.

Golly

[Guy Smiley]

What would expect it to do on this forum?

I've spent my adult life expecting great things from my fellow humans... compassion, empathy, curiosity, humility and among many others things, a childlike charm and fascination in the wonders of the universe.

My expectations leave me bruised, battered and bleeding in the face of reality.


Every time.

No, it's driving a moped off a cliff that does that

I expected more from you.

[Biffer]

For those that are concerned about population rises, I’m sure you can enlighten us on the best way to reduce population growth?

Historically, wars and diseases.

Not so much. The Black Death did, definitely. But apart from that pandemics generally haven’t slowed down population growth much. And wars haven’t. The population of the planet was higher in 1919 than it was in 1914.

There is one thing that provably lowers the birth rate on a macro societal scale. Educating girls and young women. Not about sex and birth control particularly, but general education. Where that happens in a consistent widespread way in a country over ten or twenty years, the birth rate drops dramatically and ends up going down to about 2.

It’s the only thing proven to have a long term effect. Except for the Black Death, and we probably don’t want to do that unless we’re raving fans of eugenics.

[Random1]

Colour me surprised that a discussion over the rights of women and their bodily autonomy should turn into a bunch of white guys arguing semantics over a graph.

What would expect it to do on this forum?

I've spent my adult life expecting great things from my fellow humans... compassion, empathy, curiosity, humility and among many others things, a childlike charm and fascination in the wonders of the universe.

My expectations leave me bruised, battered and bleeding in the face of reality.


Every time.

Compassion to anyone unless they’re white males obvs.

[Happyhooker]

I've spent my adult life expecting great things from my fellow humans... compassion, empathy, curiosity, humility and among many others things, a childlike charm and fascination in the wonders of the universe.

My expectations leave me bruised, battered and bleeding in the face of reality.


Every time.

No, it's driving a moped off a cliff that does that

I expected more from you.

Ditto

[JM2K6]

For those that are concerned about population rises, I’m sure you can enlighten us on the best way to reduce population growth?

Mass sterilisation of poor people works for me.

Before a problem can be solved, it must be recognised there is a problem.

I can't see any simple, globally acceptable way of reducing the population. That does not mean we should not raise the issue and discuss it. The more it is discussed, the more likely it is that it will enter the debate of what we need to do to ensure the sustainability of the human population on the planet, which may lead to workable solutions. Though I do not have a scooby what they would be.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Incidentally, most European countries have stagnant or shrinking populations and birth rates and require immigration to maintain their economies. Population increase is not a problem in Europe, and I'm fairly sure the "sterilise the poor" crowd are talking closer to home, so that's pretty funny.

But never mind, the world's pisspoor response to the climate emergency should see plenty of the poors in less wealthy countries die off in huge numbers soon enough, so that'll cheer some of you lot up a bit

[weegie01]

I must remember to use smillies more, given I have such a record of extreme and malevolent posts.

[JM2K6]

Well, there is basically no way to read that as irony or sarcasm but I'm glad to hear you were joking. Torq was probably nodding along though

[Guy Smiley]

I must remember to use smillies more, given I have such a record of extreme and malevolent posts.

Please do.

[weegie01]

Well, there is basically no way to read that as irony or sarcasm but I'm glad to hear you were joking. Torq was probably nodding along though.

I did think the rest of the post in which I say we need to discuss this to find a way forward, and I have no clue what the solution is may have been a clue.

But lesson learned.

[Happyhooker]

Well, there is basically no way to read that as irony or sarcasm but I'm glad to hear you were joking. Torq was probably nodding along though.

I did think the rest of the post in which I say we need to discuss this to find a way forward, and I have no clue what the solution is may have been a clue.

But lesson learned.

torq definitely believes in this shit, which is why you have to be careful.

[JM2K6]

Well, there is basically no way to read that as irony or sarcasm but I'm glad to hear you were joking. Torq was probably nodding along though.

I did think the rest of the post in which I say we need to discuss this to find a way forward, and I have no clue what the solution is may have been a clue.

But lesson learned.

I understand, but it read like you were just saying that you realised it was an unpalatable solution to most people therefore unworkable, but one you were keen on. Anyway, all cleared up!

[weegie01]

Well, there is basically no way to read that as irony or sarcasm but I'm glad to hear you were joking. Torq was probably nodding along though.

I did think the rest of the post in which I say we need to discuss this to find a way forward, and I have no clue what the solution is may have been a clue.

But lesson learned.

torq definitely believes in this shit, which is why you have to be careful.

Seriously?

I honestly thought that was such an extreme position no one could possibly think it was real.

[robmatic]

I did think the rest of the post in which I say we need to discuss this to find a way forward, and I have no clue what the solution is may have been a clue.

But lesson learned.

torq definitely believes in this shit, which is why you have to be careful.

Seriously?

I honestly thought that was such an extreme position no one could possibly think it was real.

Yes but we've all spent too much time reading the PR forum which has more than its fair share of absolute zoomers.

[sefton]

I did think the rest of the post in which I say we need to discuss this to find a way forward, and I have no clue what the solution is may have been a clue.

But lesson learned.

torq definitely believes in this shit, which is why you have to be careful.

Seriously?

I honestly thought that was such an extreme position no one could possibly think it was real.

Struck me as so far out of your normal personality on here that it must be an attempt to be ironic.

Would be believable for Torq on the other hand, that man must be choking on his own bile.

[ASMO]

For those that are concerned about population rises, I’m sure you can enlighten us on the best way to reduce population growth?

Solyent Green (solves 2 problems for the price of 1, or carousel (only people of a certain age will get that one)

[weegie01]

For those that are concerned about population rises, I’m sure you can enlighten us on the best way to reduce population growth?

Solyent Green (solves 2 problems for the price of 1, or carousel (only people of a certain age will get that one)

Carousel is a 1956 American drama fantasy musical film based on the 1945 Rodgers and Hammerstein stage musical of the same name, which in turn was based on Ferenc Molnár's 1909 non-musical play Liliom. The film stars Gordon MacRae and Shirley Jones, and was directed by Henry King. Like the original stage production, the film contains what many critics consider some of Rodgers and Hammerstein's most beautiful songs, as well as what may be, along with the plots of Allegro, South Pacific, and The King and I, the most serious storyline found in their musicals.

[JM2K6]

torq definitely believes in this shit, which is why you have to be careful.

Seriously?

I honestly thought that was such an extreme position no one could possibly think it was real.

Struck me as so far out of your normal personality on here that it must be an attempt to be ironic.

Would be believable for Torq on the other hand, that man must be choking on his own bile.

I'm not sure why but I also have found it hard(er) on this board to keep a consistent view of posters and what they normally post. Definitely more of a "take each post as it comes" approach in general.

[Dogbert]

For those that are concerned about population rises, I’m sure you can enlighten us on the best way to reduce population growth?

Solyent Green (solves 2 problems for the price of 1, or carousel (only people of a certain age will get that one)

Carousel is a 1956 American drama fantasy musical film based on the 1945 Rodgers and Hammerstein stage musical of the same name, which in turn was based on Ferenc Molnár's 1909 non-musical play Liliom. The film stars Gordon MacRae and Shirley Jones, and was directed by Henry King. Like the original stage production, the film contains what many critics consider some of Rodgers and Hammerstein's most beautiful songs, as well as what may be, along with the plots of Allegro, South Pacific, and The King and I, the most serious storyline found in their musicals.

Jenny Agutter (Jessica 6 ) at her most alluring

[weegie01]

Solyent Green (solves 2 problems for the price of 1, or carousel (only people of a certain age will get that one)

Carousel is a 1956 American drama fantasy musical film based on the 1945 Rodgers and Hammerstein stage musical of the same name, which in turn was based on Ferenc Molnár's 1909 non-musical play Liliom. The film stars Gordon MacRae and Shirley Jones, and was directed by Henry King. Like the original stage production, the film contains what many critics consider some of Rodgers and Hammerstein's most beautiful songs, as well as what may be, along with the plots of Allegro, South Pacific, and The King and I, the most serious storyline found in their musicals.

Jenny Agutter (Jessica 6 ) at her most alluring

OK, with you now.

Fun fact, the movie 'Carousel' featured the original version of 'You'll Never Walk Alone'.

[Biffer]

Jenny Agutter (Jessica 6 ) at her most alluring

OK, with you now.

Fun fact, the movie 'Carousel' featured the original version of 'You'll Never Walk Alone'.

Actually, the stage production had the original version 11 years earlier.

[Jock42]

I must remember to use smillies more, given I have such a record of extreme and malevolent posts.

Nah, I was in no doubt you didn't seriously want to sterilise folk.