NPR

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:16 pm. Terrorism also exists because of extreme beliefs in all kinds of subjects and NOT just because political policy and diplomacy fails.

Hugo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 1:11 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:16 pm. Terrorism also exists because of extreme beliefs in all kinds of subjects and NOT just because political policy and diplomacy fails.

Does it?

By my reckoning: Terrorist groups can only really sustain themselves when they have a decent amount of support from their constituents. That support can only really manifest when living conditions are intolerable for the average Joe. Most people are just too lazy and too engaged with surviving day to day to be so heavily invested in political and religious extremism imo. Extremism is a function of poverty whereby people feel they have nothing to lose.

Hugo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 1:11 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:16 pm. Terrorism also exists because of extreme beliefs in all kinds of subjects and NOT just because political policy and diplomacy fails.

Does it?

By my reckoning: Terrorist groups can only really sustain themselves when they have a decent amount of support from their constituents. That support can only really manifest when living conditions are intolerable for the average Joe. Most people are just too lazy and too engaged with surviving day to day to be so heavily invested in political and religious extremism imo. Extremism is a function of poverty whereby people feel they have nothing to lose.

Hugo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 1:11 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:16 pm. Terrorism also exists because of extreme beliefs in all kinds of subjects and NOT just because political policy and diplomacy fails.

Does it?

By my reckoning: Terrorist groups can only really sustain themselves when they have a decent amount of support from their constituents. That support can only really manifest when living conditions are intolerable for the average Joe. Most people are just too lazy and too engaged with surviving day to day to be so heavily invested in political and religious extremism imo. Extremism is a function of poverty whereby people feel they have nothing to lose.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:42 am

Hugo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 1:11 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:16 pm. Terrorism also exists because of extreme beliefs in all kinds of subjects and NOT just because political policy and diplomacy fails.

Does it?

By my reckoning: Terrorist groups can only really sustain themselves when they have a decent amount of support from their constituents. That support can only really manifest when living conditions are intolerable for the average Joe. Most people are just too lazy and too engaged with surviving day to day to be so heavily invested in political and religious extremism imo. Extremism is a function of poverty whereby people feel they have nothing to lose.

They don't need a decent amount of support when they're in charge of everything, the ones with the guns and the ruthlessness. It's also easy to keep the populace downtrodden when you spend all the money on weapons and building materials on tunnels.

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:04 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:42 am

Hugo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 1:11 am

Does it?

By my reckoning: Terrorist groups can only really sustain themselves when they have a decent amount of support from their constituents. That support can only really manifest when living conditions are intolerable for the average Joe. Most people are just too lazy and too engaged with surviving day to day to be so heavily invested in political and religious extremism imo. Extremism is a function of poverty whereby people feel they have nothing to lose.

They don't need a decent amount of support when they're in charge of everything, the ones with the guns and the ruthlessness. It's also easy to keep the populace downtrodden when you spend all the money on weapons and building materials on tunnels.

Enough about the Israelis... what do you think about the Palestinians?

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:27 am

Muttonbird wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:13 am What was this "music festival for peace held near the Gaza border fence"?

Unless they had actively engaged Palestinian representatives, it just looks like Israeli settlers partying outside the doors of an open air prison.

An open air prison with 5 star hotels?

https://www.booking.com/fivestars/country/ps.en-gb.html

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:16 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:04 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:42 am

They don't need a decent amount of support when they're in charge of everything, the ones with the guns and the ruthlessness. It's also easy to keep the populace downtrodden when you spend all the money on weapons and building materials on tunnels.

Enough about the Israelis... what do you think about the Palestinians?

I'm trying to avoid posting as much as possible. Right now, seeing as I had a brother in law held hostage in Beiri, thankfully rescued (his wife and young son thankfully managed to get out whilst the attack was happening). A good friends brother is still missing and has had no contact since the attack happened, and a friend of my wife has already learned that at least one of her mentally handicapped brothers has been murdered, another is missing, and her elderly mother has been kidnapped into Gaza, that perhaps my perspective isn't the most balanced at this time.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:16 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:04 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:42 am

They don't need a decent amount of support when they're in charge of everything, the ones with the guns and the ruthlessness. It's also easy to keep the populace downtrodden when you spend all the money on weapons and building materials on tunnels.

Enough about the Israelis... what do you think about the Palestinians?

I'm trying to avoid posting as much as possible. Right now, seeing as I had a brother in law held hostage in Beiri, thankfully rescued (his wife and young son thankfully managed to get out whilst the attack was happening). A good friends brother is still missing and has had no contact since the attack happened, and a friend of my wife has already learned that at least one of her mentally handicapped brothers has been murdered, another is missing, and her elderly mother has been kidnapped into Gaza, that perhaps my perspective isn't the most balanced at this time.

inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:33 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:16 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:04 am
Enough about the Israelis... what do you think about the Palestinians?

I'm trying to avoid posting as much as possible. Right now, seeing as I had a brother in law held hostage in Beiri, thankfully rescued (his wife and young son thankfully managed to get out whilst the attack was happening). A good friends brother is still missing and has had no contact since the attack happened, and a friend of my wife has already learned that at least one of her mentally handicapped brothers has been murdered, another is missing, and her elderly mother has been kidnapped into Gaza, that perhaps my perspective isn't the most balanced at this time.

Jesus. This is madness.

Hoping you and all your loved ones stay safe.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:19 am Guy is the very definition of a wet liberal. Ticks every box known

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:00 am

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:19 am Guy is the very definition of a wet liberal. Ticks every box known

Fuck off. There are two sides to this whole sorry shitfight and neither has any moral high ground. I’m not gonna pander to one over the other.

Raggs, I’m sorry to hear of your personal involvement. Anyone caught up in this is going through a living hell.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:17 am I'm afraid Israel is now starting by committing a war crime, in announcing they're going to cut off food, water, electricity & fuel supplies to Gaza.

They're punishing millions of civilians for the acts of a thousand terrorists

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:35 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:17 am I'm afraid Israel is now starting by committing a war crime, in announcing they're going to cut off food, water, electricity & fuel supplies to Gaza.

They're punishing millions of civilians for the acts of a thousand terrorists

War crimes are nothing new in this region. This current right wing government (it's not a democratic government anymore, or at least it's trying not to be), were never going to keep the lights on in Gaza given the attack.

However it amazes me how often people seem to simply ignore that Gaza has a border to another country, a supposedly friendly one, and yet it's constantly the country that they have attacked, and explicitly stated they want to drive into the sea, that's expected to supply everything to them.

Given the interactions between Gaza and Israel, and the long bloody past, I always wondered why Israel didn't simply say "You've got 3 years to sort the infrastructure, then we're shutting this shit down, talk to Egypt."

Where is the pressure on Egypt, in the past 18 years, to develop any sort of infrastructure to support Gaza? Where are the funds that should have been donated to that goal instead of weapons?

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:35 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:17 am I'm afraid Israel is now starting by committing a war crime, in announcing they're going to cut off food, water, electricity & fuel supplies to Gaza.

They're punishing millions of civilians for the acts of a thousand terrorists

War crimes are nothing new in this region. This current right wing government (it's not a democratic government anymore, or at least it's trying not to be), were never going to keep the lights on in Gaza given the attack.

However it amazes me how often people seem to simply ignore that Gaza has a border to another country, a supposedly friendly one, and yet it's constantly the country that they have attacked, and explicitly stated they want to drive into the sea, that's expected to supply everything to them.

Given the interactions between Gaza and Israel, and the long bloody past, I always wondered why Israel didn't simply say "You've got 3 years to sort the infrastructure, then we're shutting this shit down, talk to Egypt."

Where is the pressure on Egypt, in the past 18 years, to develop any sort of infrastructure to support Gaza? Where are the funds that should have been donated to that goal instead of weapons?

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:35 am
Given the interactions between Gaza and Israel, and the long bloody past, I always wondered why Israel didn't simply say "You've got 3 years to sort the infrastructure, then we're shutting this shit down, talk to Egypt."

Where is the pressure on Egypt, in the past 18 years, to develop any sort of infrastructure to support Gaza? Where are the funds that should have been donated to that goal instead of weapons?

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:20 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:35 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:17 am I'm afraid Israel is now starting by committing a war crime, in announcing they're going to cut off food, water, electricity & fuel supplies to Gaza.

They're punishing millions of civilians for the acts of a thousand terrorists

War crimes are nothing new in this region. This current right wing government (it's not a democratic government anymore, or at least it's trying not to be), were never going to keep the lights on in Gaza given the attack.

However it amazes me how often people seem to simply ignore that Gaza has a border to another country, a supposedly friendly one, and yet it's constantly the country that they have attacked, and explicitly stated they want to drive into the sea, that's expected to supply everything to them.

Given the interactions between Gaza and Israel, and the long bloody past, I always wondered why Israel didn't simply say "You've got 3 years to sort the infrastructure, then we're shutting this shit down, talk to Egypt."

Where is the pressure on Egypt, in the past 18 years, to develop any sort of infrastructure to support Gaza? Where are the funds that should have been donated to that goal instead of weapons?

1979 peace treaty between Egypt and Israel.
Only persons may transit the border crossing on the Egyptian side. All goods must go by the Israel border crossing.

Incidentally IDF destroyed the only airport there in 2001.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:22 pm There's also an Israeli buffer zone along the Gaza-Egypt border.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:20 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:35 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:17 am I'm afraid Israel is now starting by committing a war crime, in announcing they're going to cut off food, water, electricity & fuel supplies to Gaza.

They're punishing millions of civilians for the acts of a thousand terrorists

War crimes are nothing new in this region. This current right wing government (it's not a democratic government anymore, or at least it's trying not to be), were never going to keep the lights on in Gaza given the attack.

However it amazes me how often people seem to simply ignore that Gaza has a border to another country, a supposedly friendly one, and yet it's constantly the country that they have attacked, and explicitly stated they want to drive into the sea, that's expected to supply everything to them.

Given the interactions between Gaza and Israel, and the long bloody past, I always wondered why Israel didn't simply say "You've got 3 years to sort the infrastructure, then we're shutting this shit down, talk to Egypt."

Where is the pressure on Egypt, in the past 18 years, to develop any sort of infrastructure to support Gaza? Where are the funds that should have been donated to that goal instead of weapons?

1979 peace treaty between Egypt and Israel.
Only persons may transit the border crossing on the Egyptian side. All goods must go by the Israel border crossing.

Incidentally IDF destroyed the only airport there in 2001.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:39 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:31 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:22 pm There's also an Israeli buffer zone along the Gaza-Egypt border.

Put Rafah (Gaza/Egyptian border) to Jerusalem into Google maps. Fucking bonkers route!

Put in Khan Yunis and you are in serious trouble

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:16 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:04 am

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:42 am

They don't need a decent amount of support when they're in charge of everything, the ones with the guns and the ruthlessness. It's also easy to keep the populace downtrodden when you spend all the money on weapons and building materials on tunnels.

Enough about the Israelis... what do you think about the Palestinians?

I'm trying to avoid posting as much as possible. Right now, seeing as I had a brother in law held hostage in Beiri, thankfully rescued (his wife and young son thankfully managed to get out whilst the attack was happening). A good friends brother is still missing and has had no contact since the attack happened, and a friend of my wife has already learned that at least one of her mentally handicapped brothers has been murdered, another is missing, and her elderly mother has been kidnapped into Gaza, that perhaps my perspective isn't the most balanced at this time.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:20 pm
It's an uncomfortable reality, but no-one wants to work with the Palestinians. They're fucking mad.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:07 pm

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:20 pm
It's an uncomfortable reality, but no-one wants to work with the Palestinians. They're fucking mad.

As has been noted many times, so often in history nobody has wanted the Jews or the Palestinians, and yet that exclusion hasn't exactly wrought a common understanding and acceptance.

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:35 am There is no good in this whole situation. In other conflicts you kind of have a 'good guy' vs the 'bad guy' - which is usually shared by a majority.

This conflict however doesn't seem to have a 'good guy'.

One side is actively and directly killing and terrorising citizens - the other side is implementing expansion decisions that lead to the death and suffering of the other side.

Basically - religion is a curse on the human psyche and we would be better off without it.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:39 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:20 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:35 am

War crimes are nothing new in this region. This current right wing government (it's not a democratic government anymore, or at least it's trying not to be), were never going to keep the lights on in Gaza given the attack.

However it amazes me how often people seem to simply ignore that Gaza has a border to another country, a supposedly friendly one, and yet it's constantly the country that they have attacked, and explicitly stated they want to drive into the sea, that's expected to supply everything to them.

Given the interactions between Gaza and Israel, and the long bloody past, I always wondered why Israel didn't simply say "You've got 3 years to sort the infrastructure, then we're shutting this shit down, talk to Egypt."

Where is the pressure on Egypt, in the past 18 years, to develop any sort of infrastructure to support Gaza? Where are the funds that should have been donated to that goal instead of weapons?

1979 peace treaty between Egypt and Israel.
Only persons may transit the border crossing on the Egyptian side. All goods must go by the Israel border crossing.

Incidentally IDF destroyed the only airport there in 2001.

I knew goods went through Egypt/Gaza.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/mov ... june-2023/

Nearly 40% of goods in June went through Egypt to Gaza. According to the site (UN) since 2018 goods have entered from Egypt.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:35 pm And as usual it's the ordinary people who suffer, while Hamas will no doubt have their coffers topped up by the usual suspects

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:41 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:35 pm And as usual it's the ordinary people who suffer, while Hamas will no doubt have their coffers topped up by the usual suspects

I'm not buying that line. The people of Gaza knew something like this would happen. It's not as though Hamas didn't operate from people's homes, garages, hospitals and schools.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:47 pm

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:41 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:35 pm And as usual it's the ordinary people who suffer, while Hamas will no doubt have their coffers topped up by the usual suspects

I'm not buying that line. The people of Gaza knew something like this would happen. It's not as though Hamas didn't operate from people's homes, garages, hospitals and schools.

And what exactly do you expect them to do about it? You think Hamas give a shit about them? They have the power, the guns and the depravity to hold control.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:47 pm

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:41 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:35 pm And as usual it's the ordinary people who suffer, while Hamas will no doubt have their coffers topped up by the usual suspects

I'm not buying that line. The people of Gaza knew something like this would happen. It's not as though Hamas didn't operate from people's homes, garages, hospitals and schools.

And what exactly do you expect them to do about it? You think Hamas give a shit about them? They have the power, the guns and the depravity to hold control.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:47 pm

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:41 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:35 pm And as usual it's the ordinary people who suffer, while Hamas will no doubt have their coffers topped up by the usual suspects

I'm not buying that line. The people of Gaza knew something like this would happen. It's not as though Hamas didn't operate from people's homes, garages, hospitals and schools.

And what exactly do you expect them to do about it? You think Hamas give a shit about them? They have the power, the guns and the depravity to hold control.

Snr Egyptian intel official told AP that Egypt repeatedly warned Israel of "something big" from Gaza. Israel focused only on the West Bank & downplayed Gaza threat: "We warned them about the explosive situation, that it was very close & would be big. They disregarded warnings."

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:39 pm Reported in the Times of Israel, behind paywall

Snr Egyptian intel official told AP that Egypt repeatedly warned Israel of "something big" from Gaza. Israel focused only on the West Bank & downplayed Gaza threat: "We warned them about the explosive situation, that it was very close & would be big. They disregarded warnings."

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:45 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:39 pm Reported in the Times of Israel, behind paywall

Snr Egyptian intel official told AP that Egypt repeatedly warned Israel of "something big" from Gaza. Israel focused only on the West Bank & downplayed Gaza threat: "We warned them about the explosive situation, that it was very close & would be big. They disregarded warnings."

It could be argued that Golda Meir and the Israeli Labour Party were never forgiven for allowing Israeli massacres.
Will Benni suffer the same fate?