What did we learn about the AB's this year?

[FujiKiwi]

To recapture something like the Nonu/Smith magic in 2023, what about Umaga-Jensen/Ennor?

[wet-socks]

To recapture something like the Nonu/Smith magic in 2023, what about Umaga-Jensen/Ennor?

Tony Brown has been talking up Peter Umaga-Jensen's brother, Thomas, who apparently had come into Highlanders pre-season weighing in as the heaviest midfielder in the country. Perhaps he's the solution to fill that "Nonu-sized" void we've been searching for?

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/tony-bro ... ing-stars/

Marking his comeback from a long-term shoulder injury with an impactful display for Otago in the Mitre 10 Cup last month, Brown said the 22-year-old is in top physical condition and could join his twin Peter in contending for the All Blacks.

“He’s turned himself into a bit of a beast,” Brown said of Umaga-Jensen.

“I think he’s weighing in at 113kg and running as quick as a winger, and he’s looking really good in the gym, and obviously only played 20 minutes the other day for Otago, but I think he’s going to have a massive 2021.

“If he can make that centre spot his own, he’s going to be pushing on All Blacks selection, I’m sure.”

[FujiKiwi]

I only did a cursory check on Wikipedia, but was surprised to read that Peter Umaga-Jensen isn't significantly heavier than any of Laumape, Leinert-Brown or Goodhue. I was under the impression he was a bit bigger.

[wet-socks]

I only did a cursory check on Wikipedia, but was surprised to read that Peter Umaga-Jensen isn't significantly heavier than any of Laumape, Leinert-Brown or Goodhue. I was under the impression he was a bit bigger.

Peter 's 13, so he probably wouldn't be competing with his brother anyways.

Browns says it will be Thomas at 12, Paea at 13 for the Highlanders midfield.

I'd love to this 113kg frame of Thomas utilized at 12 for the AB's with any of Goodhue/ALB/PUJ/Reiko at 13.

[Dan54]

12... ALB
13...Goodhue

22... Laumape

I used to agree, but actually think the other way works better as I think Goodhue may lack pace for 13, so could be suited to one 12. I thought during Super Aotearoa Goodhue was the best 12 on show, Laumape had one real good game, but generally I rated Goodhue better.
Mind you I always thought that Conrad Smith wasn't all that fast for a 13 either, but made up for it with his brain and knowing where to be so well. And maybe I judge them all on the prince of centres in NZ Bruce Robertson and probably shouldn't do that.

Goodhue is a centre. ALB can play both positions but is more adept at 12. If Goodhue lacks pace for centre, which I don't necessarily agree with, then he should not be in the team. And if that is the reason he's been shoehorned into 12, then it is a more fuckwitted selection than I thought.

As an aside, when will Braydon Ennor be back in the mix? He certainly doesn't lack for pace.

Perhaps you hit it on the head, Goodhue couldn't make 13 for Crusaders becuase seems Razor thought that Ennor was better than him there, and if I remember even when Ennor was injured didn't someone else play 13 for Crusaders? If so it would seem not only AB selectors think he a 12? I always though ALB was a 12 (not sure if that was because that's where I first saw hin play) but as said have preferred him at 13 to Goodhue, mainly for pace and I though Goodhue was best 12 in super rugby this year.

[Dan54]

To recapture something like the Nonu/Smith magic in 2023, what about Umaga-Jensen/Ennor?

Would be interested to see that , but isn't Umaga-Jensen usually a 12? Ennor is fast becoming a Kahui, seemingly pretty good at getting injured, would love to see him have a full year to see how good he is. Hope he is over the injury run (same as Will Jordan)

[FujiKiwi]

I only did a cursory check on Wikipedia, but was surprised to read that Peter Umaga-Jensen isn't significantly heavier than any of Laumape, Leinert-Brown or Goodhue. I was under the impression he was a bit bigger.

Peter 's 13, so he probably wouldn't be competing with his brother anyways.

Browns says it will be Thomas at 12, Paea at 13 for the Highlanders midfield.

I'd love to this 113kg frame of Thomas utilized at 12 for the AB's with any of Goodhue/ALB/PUJ/Reiko at 13.

It's early days for this Thomas kid for people to be saying he's an AB starter, though good on Tony Brown for motivating his players by hyping them up in the media.

His twin, though has shown some of the barnstorming qualities that could make him a regular AB midfielder. I think he has just a dimension or two more than Laumape, as well.

[wet-socks]

Another leftfield option try another winger-midfield covert like Ma'a Nonu & Tana Umaga, do we eventually convert the 108kg Caleb Clarke into a 12?

[FujiKiwi]

To recapture something like the Nonu/Smith magic in 2023, what about Umaga-Jensen/Ennor?

Would be interested to see that , but isn't Umaga-Jensen usually a 12? Ennor is fast becoming a Kahui, seemingly pretty good at getting injured, would love to see him have a full year to see how good he is. Hope he is over the injury run (same as Will Jordan)

I thought Ennor was more of a 13? Sorry if I have that wrong.

[FujiKiwi]

Another leftfield option try another winger-midfield covert like Ma'a Nonu & Tana Umaga, do we eventually convert the 108kg Caleb Clarke into a 12?

No.

[Dan54]

Fast forward to today and I doubt even a NZR stooge like Dan54 would say that the All Black coaching team is comprised of our most talented coaches, or that the best captain in NZ is captaining the All Blacks.

You do realise how unhealthy it is to show the whole bored that I obviously fill your thoughts so often don't you?

[wet-socks]

PUJ is definitely more of a 13.

[Dan54]

To recapture something like the Nonu/Smith magic in 2023, what about Umaga-Jensen/Ennor?

Would be interested to see that , but isn't Umaga-Jensen usually a 12? Ennor is fast becoming a Kahui, seemingly pretty good at getting injured, would love to see him have a full year to see how good he is. Hope he is over the injury run (same as Will Jordan)

I thought Ennor was more of a 13? Sorry if I have that wrong.

Yep he is, that's why I wondered about Umaga-Jensen at 12 thought he was also a 13.

[wet-socks]

I only did a cursory check on Wikipedia, but was surprised to read that Peter Umaga-Jensen isn't significantly heavier than any of Laumape, Leinert-Brown or Goodhue. I was under the impression he was a bit bigger.

Peter 's 13, so he probably wouldn't be competing with his brother anyways.

Browns says it will be Thomas at 12, Paea at 13 for the Highlanders midfield.

I'd love to this 113kg frame of Thomas utilized at 12 for the AB's with any of Goodhue/ALB/PUJ/Reiko at 13.

It's early days for this Thomas kid for people to be saying he's an AB starter, though good on Tony Brown for motivating his players by hyping them up in the media.

His twin, though has shown some of the barnstorming qualities that could make him a regular AB midfielder. I think he has just a dimension or two more than Laumape, as well.

113kg (Thomas) 12, 102kg (Peter) 13. Our big, barnstorming All Black's midfield sorted

[Dan54]

Another leftfield option try another winger-midfield covert like Ma'a Nonu & Tana Umaga, do we eventually convert the 108kg Caleb Clarke into a 12?

Yep makes you think how well Umaga went moving in from the wing, you almost forget that is where he started AB career.

[FujiKiwi]

Another leftfield option try another winger-midfield covert like Ma'a Nonu & Tana Umaga, do we eventually convert the 108kg Caleb Clarke into a 12?

Yep makes you think how well Umaga went moving in from the wing, you almost forget that is where he started AB career.

This kind of move almost always fails. Nonu and Umaga were exceptions because they were selected out of their best positions in the first place.

EDIT: What's more, there's no bloody need for this at this stage. We have more than enough potentially great wingers and midfielders if we just use them right. Part of which is selecting them in their correct positions.

[Carter's Choice]

It doesn't matter which midfield duo we use, if they aren't given years to develop as a combination then it will be destined for failure. Nonu and Smith took years to reach their potential. Ian Foster is obsessed with rotation and having options, so he has never let a combination settle.

[Monkey Magic]

12... ALB
13...Goodhue

22... Laumape

I used to agree, but actually think the other way works better as I think Goodhue may lack pace for 13, so could be suited to one 12. I thought during Super Aotearoa Goodhue was the best 12 on show, Laumape had one real good game, but generally I rated Goodhue better.
Mind you I always thought that Conrad Smith wasn't all that fast for a 13 either, but made up for it with his brain and knowing where to be so well. And maybe I judge them all on the prince of centres in NZ Bruce Robertson and probably shouldn't do that.

Goodhue is a centre. ALB can play both positions but is more adept at 12. If Goodhue lacks pace for centre, which I don't necessarily agree with, then he should not be in the team. And if that is the reason he's been shoehorned into 12, then it is a more fuckwitted selection than I thought.

As an aside, when will Braydon Ennor be back in the mix? He certainly doesn't lack for pace.

Hopefully he is young enough that he recovers from his injury while keeping his pace. Think he will only be available for crusaders for the trans tasman part of super next year. Could be 2022 before he is back to his best

[mrbrownstone]

It doesn't matter which midfield duo we use, if they aren't given years to develop as a combination then it will be destined for failure. Nonu and Smith took years to reach their potential. Ian Foster is obsessed with rotation and having options, so he has never let a combination settle.

Completely agree. If that's the case, why not learn from our greatest centre pairings - Nonu/Smith, Little/Bunce - and other longstanding international pairings like D'Arcy/O'Driscoll for Leinster, de Villiers/Fourie for the Stormers ect and pick a franchise combination to really allow them to gel?

Also allows ALB back to the bench where I'd argue he's played most of his best AB rugby.

10. Mo'unga

12. Goodhue
13. Ennor

22. ALB

[wet-socks]

It doesn't matter which midfield duo we use, if they aren't given years to develop as a combination then it will be destined for failure. Nonu and Smith took years to reach their potential. Ian Foster is obsessed with rotation and having options, so he has never let a combination settle.

Completely agree. If that's the case, why not learn from our greatest centre pairings - Nonu/Smith, Little/Bunce - and other longstanding international pairings like D'Arcy/O'Driscoll for Leinster, de Villiers/Fourie for the Stormers ect and pick a franchise combination to really allow them to gel?

Also allows ALB back to the bench where I'd argue he's played most of his best AB rugby.

10. Mo'unga

12. Goodhue
13. Ennor

22. ALB

Not a lot of X factor or much point of difference in that starting combo tbf, other than Ennor's pace.

I'm inclined to believe we need to have one bigger guy to fill the Nonu/SBW role in the starting midfield.

The heaviest mid-fielders/outside backs (hybrids) in NZ currently are:

Thomas Umaga-Jenson (113kg), Caleb Clarke (108kg) &
Leicester Fainga'anuku (109kg).

I sense immense midfield potential in all three of them.

[mrbrownstone]

It doesn't matter which midfield duo we use, if they aren't given years to develop as a combination then it will be destined for failure. Nonu and Smith took years to reach their potential. Ian Foster is obsessed with rotation and having options, so he has never let a combination settle.

Completely agree. If that's the case, why not learn from our greatest centre pairings - Nonu/Smith, Little/Bunce - and other longstanding international pairings like D'Arcy/O'Driscoll for Leinster, de Villiers/Fourie for the Stormers ect and pick a franchise combination to really allow them to gel?

Also allows ALB back to the bench where I'd argue he's played most of his best AB rugby.

10. Mo'unga

12. Goodhue
13. Ennor

22. ALB

Not a lot of X factor or much point of difference in that starting combo tbf, other than Ennor's pace.

I'm inclined to believe we need to have one bigger guy to fill the Nonu/SBW role in the starting midfield.

The heaviest mid-fielders/outside backs (hybrids) in NZ currently are:

Thomas Umaga-Jenson (113kg), Caleb Clarke (108kg) &
Leicester Fainga'anuku (109kg).

I sense immense midfield potential in all three of them.

Leicester Fainga'anuku is an interesting prospect, particularly if he spends some time in the midfield for the Crusaders with Ennor injured.

Can't agree that midfield lacks X Factor though. Goodhue is hardly a small man and Ennor is electric at his best.

[Gumboot]

Move Ardie back into the midfield and pick Hoskins at 8.

[FujiKiwi]

I don’t think many of us think “Ah, yes, the secret to the success of the Smith/Nonu partnership was that they played for the same franchise.”

[Carter's Choice]

Not a lot of X factor or much point of difference in that starting combo tbf, other than Ennor's pace.

With respect, I think Ennor has the most x factor of any of our realistic centre options. Even more than Reiko, who has done some very flashy things as a winger, but whose appearances at centre have generally been characterised by glaring errors and dying with the ball when he should have passed earlier.

[Guy Smiley]

I used to agree, but actually think the other way works better as I think Goodhue may lack pace for 13, so could be suited to one 12. I thought during Super Aotearoa Goodhue was the best 12 on show, Laumape had one real good game, but generally I rated Goodhue better.
Mind you I always thought that Conrad Smith wasn't all that fast for a 13 either, but made up for it with his brain and knowing where to be so well. And maybe I judge them all on the prince of centres in NZ Bruce Robertson and probably shouldn't do that.

Goodhue is a centre. ALB can play both positions but is more adept at 12. If Goodhue lacks pace for centre, which I don't necessarily agree with, then he should not be in the team. And if that is the reason he's been shoehorned into 12, then it is a more fuckwitted selection than I thought.

As an aside, when will Braydon Ennor be back in the mix? He certainly doesn't lack for pace.

Perhaps you hit it on the head, Goodhue couldn't make 13 for Crusaders becuase seems Razor thought that Ennor was better than him there, and if I remember even when Ennor was injured didn't someone else play 13 for Crusaders? If so it would seem not only AB selectors think he a 12? I always though ALB was a 12 (not sure if that was because that's where I first saw hin play) but as said have preferred him at 13 to Goodhue, mainly for pace and I though Goodhue was best 12 in super rugby this year.

Fucksake, where do you go to dream this shit up?

Goodhue was played at 12 because they had no one else to cover it and felt he could manage it. Ennor had managed 13 and can play outside from there. Moving Goodhue in worked well enough as he’s good enough to play both midfield spots... but 13 is his best position. Ennor did a good job at 13. Both players could be viewed as being developed in those spots by Razor I guess.

When it comes to the ABs, Fozzie and co seem to he decided that if Razor can play Goodhue at 12 they’d better do the same despite that putting both midfielders into the spot they’re second best at.

[Monkey Magic]

We learned that the selectors feel there is such a lack of depth that they will shoe horn who they think the best players are no matter the position.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

We're slow learners. Every time we go too far away from a powerful forward game we get our ass handed to us.

Our backs are good, but not good enough to win the game on their own.

[Dan54]

We're slow learners. Every time we go too far away from a powerful forward game we get our ass handed to us.

Our backs are good, but not good enough to win the game on their own.

Amen, Poms beat us because our forwards got beat up, and backs as always are secondary>

[Dan54]

Goodhue is a centre. ALB can play both positions but is more adept at 12. If Goodhue lacks pace for centre, which I don't necessarily agree with, then he should not be in the team. And if that is the reason he's been shoehorned into 12, then it is a more fuckwitted selection than I thought.

As an aside, when will Braydon Ennor be back in the mix? He certainly doesn't lack for pace.

Perhaps you hit it on the head, Goodhue couldn't make 13 for Crusaders becuase seems Razor thought that Ennor was better than him there, and if I remember even when Ennor was injured didn't someone else play 13 for Crusaders? If so it would seem not only AB selectors think he a 12? I always though ALB was a 12 (not sure if that was because that's where I first saw hin play) but as said have preferred him at 13 to Goodhue, mainly for pace and I though Goodhue was best 12 in super rugby this year.

Fucksake, where do you go to dream this shit up?

Goodhue was played at 12 because they had no one else to cover it and felt he could manage it. Ennor had managed 13 and can play outside from there. Moving Goodhue in worked well enough as he’s good enough to play both midfield spots... but 13 is his best position. Ennor did a good job at 13. Both players could be viewed as being developed in those spots by Razor I guess.
When it comes to the ABs, Fozzie and co seem to he decided that if Razor can play Goodhue at 12 they’d better do the same despite that putting both midfielders into the spot they’re second best at.

You reckon? Havili is a pretty bloody good 12, I can't remember if he was injured at start of season. So regardless Razor figured that Ennor was a better 13 obviously, otherwise he wouldn't of played him there surely he would of played him on wing and Goodhue at 13! And after Ennor got injured who played 13? Did Razor tell you why he played him at 12 or are you guessing?
And ALB played 13 for Chiefs didn't he? So the Super coaches as well as AB coaches are playing these fellas out of position?
Geez and Dutchie was playing Savea at 8 too, hell is noone played in their best position?

[Guy Smiley]

Yeah

Nah

[Ymx]

Goodhue moved to 12 for the gaping hole left by Crotty, and had a lack of the experienced players as centre specialist.

wet-socks does brown = x-factor?

[FujiKiwi]

Goodhue moved to 12 for the gaping hole left by Crotty, and had a lack of the experienced players as centre specialist.

wet-socks does brown = x-factor?

I think Tony Brown definitely had some electric moments, but I hardly see him as a solution to our present midfield woes.

[Jb1981]

You reckon? Havili is a pretty bloody good 12, I can't remember if he was injured at start of season. So regardless Razor figured that Ennor was a better 13 obviously, otherwise he wouldn't of played him there surely he would of played him on wing and Goodhue at 13! And after Ennor got injured who played 13? Did Razor tell you why he played him at 12 or are you guessing?
And ALB played 13 for Chiefs didn't he? So the Super coaches as well as AB coaches are playing these fellas out of position?
Geez and Dutchie was playing Savea at 8 too, hell is noone played in their best position?

Speaking last year before Goodhue played 12 (due to Crotty being on AB rest), Robertson said:

"It's a great opportunity for Jack to play 12. Great centres can also play well at 12."

That sounds like, a year ago at least, that Robertson saw centre as Goodhue’s best position (a “great” centre) but that for the team, he could do well at 12.

[Ymx]

Goodhue moved to 12 for the gaping hole left by Crotty, and had a lack of the experienced players as centre specialist.

wet-socks does brown = x-factor?

I think Tony Brown definitely had some electric moments, but I hardly see him as a solution to our present midfield woes.

took me while to get that.

[Ted.]

Another leftfield option try another winger-midfield covert like Ma'a Nonu & Tana Umaga, do we eventually convert the 108kg Caleb Clarke into a 12?

No.

Agreed. Nonu wasn't a wing anyway. He was only played there on occasion to get him on the field. It held back his development IMO.

[Ted.]

Goodhue moved to 12 for the gaping hole left by Crotty, and had a lack of the experienced players as centre specialist.

wet-socks does brown = x-factor?

ALB could have moved to 12, more regularly, to better file that particular hole.

[Wild Beef]

It doesn't matter which midfield duo we use, if they aren't given years to develop as a combination then it will be destined for failure. Nonu and Smith took years to reach their potential. Ian Foster is obsessed with rotation and having options, so he has never let a combination settle.

We are in the first year of the RWC cycle. I’d be disappointed if the coach settled on a midfield and didn’t give other players a go. If we fail to settle on a new combination next year then there is cause for concern. 2022 is when I’d get really worried.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

It doesn't matter which midfield duo we use, if they aren't given years to develop as a combination then it will be destined for failure. Nonu and Smith took years to reach their potential. Ian Foster is obsessed with rotation and having options, so he has never let a combination settle.

We are in the first year of the RWC cycle. I’d be disappointed if the coach settled on a midfield and didn’t give other players a go. If we fail to settle on a new combination next year then there is cause for concern. 2022 is when I’d get really worried.

On the strength (or lack thereof) of the last four years I'd say that's exactly how it will play out.

[Wild Beef]

You’re probably right...

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

I see Beauden Barrett continues to agitate for a return to playing first five.

Playing this out through the media is starting to piss me off.

How about you actually fuckin' take the opportunity to play well when starting there for the All Blacks, Beauden?

I'm not sure starring at 10 for a club side in Japan is going to do wonders for your selection prospects.

Beauden Barrett may be on a break from New Zealand rugby but it will still be very much on his mind while he plays in Japan this year.

Barrett spoke at a media conference in Japan yesterday after joining Top League club Suntory Sungoliath for his rugby sabbatical.

While impressing local media with some Japanese, Barrett also attempted to catch All Blacks coach Ian Foster’s attention with some other comments, saying he still has his eyes on playing at first-five for New Zealand.

During last year’s unique rugby season, Barrett spent most of his time at fullback for both the Blues and All Blacks with Crusaders playmaker Richie Mo’unga instead handed the black No.10 jersey late in the year.

Barrett said he hopes to spend time at first-five in Japan to put his case forward to Foster and the selectors.

"I have got a little bit of work to do in terms of slotting back into that role (first-five)," Barrett said.

"I think one would expect me to play a little more at number 10 and that is certainly something I am aspiring to do back in New Zealand for the All Blacks."

Barrett’s move to Tokyo sees him join multiple high-profile Kiwis in the competition including TJ Perenara, Brodie Retallick, Kieran Read and Ben Smith.

There was the option to take his sabbatical in France as well – where the 2023 Rugby World Cup will be held – but Barrett chose Japan with the global tournament in mind.

"It isn't Japan versus France at all. It was about 2023," Barrett said.

"I am really happy about the decision that I made."