The Scottish Politics Thread

[tc27]

Johnson really is a fucking disaster - the strange thing is I am sure he made it as an off the cuff remark and thought no more about it - he really is that careless. But yet again a freebie handed to the nats who will endlessly repeat it until the blessed day he is ejected from office.

FWIW I do think devolution was cooked up by a Labour establishment who were certain it would create redoubts that would be Labour forever hence the lack of thought about what happens if Nationalists win control and then spend every waking hour using the institutions to try a break up the country.


On the 'ball is rolling and cant be stopped' - is anyone seriously talking about Catalonia or Quebec independence these days?

[clydecloggie]

Johnson really is a fucking disaster - the strange thing is I am sure he made it as an off the cuff remark and thought no more about it - he really is that careless. But yet again a freebie handed to the nats who will endlessly repeat it until the blessed day he is ejected from office.

FWIW I do think devolution was cooked up by a Labour establishment who were certain it would create redoubts that would be Labour forever hence the lack of thought about what happens if Nationalists win control and then spend every waking hour using the institutions to try a break up the country.


On the 'ball is rolling and cant be stopped' - is anyone seriously talking about Catalonia or Quebec independence these days?

It's a good point in that there is no natural direction of change that will always lead to more support for independence. It's weird that Quebec has gone from a near 50/50 referendum result to happily (?) being part of Canada within a decade or so.

It's also a bit of a crass point given the way Spain has handled the Catalunya thing - for me, the political imprisonment of the pro-independence MPs and the deafening silence from the EU is the biggest of all stains on 'liberal, freedom-loving' Europe. Whether or not Catalunya should become independent, I don't know, and I also find the near-automatic support for each other from independence supporters in Scotland and Catalunya a bit weird and cultish. But imprisoning elected politicians for democratically trying to achieve their goals...

[Line6 HXFX]

People actually forget why we voted for devolution.

A little reminder.
So we didn't vote for devolution because hey, why the fuck not, let's have a laugh etc.
What happened is in the eighties Thatcher decided that she needed lots and lots of poor people.
Turns out that everyone working and on 9 grand a year is unsustainable.

Inflation was way too high for the pound to be traded on the money markets.

So having listened to a economist by the name of Milton Friedman, she decided that everyone working for British Steel, British Coal, real heavy nationalised industries, and people who would never vote Tory in a million years etc, should just fucking die.

Fuck them.

The reports from the Rowntree foundation from this time make the age of Austerity look like a picnic.

We had to have devolution because frankly the UK would have split up.

It is what always happens when the English supremacists get into office.

[Wylie Coyote]

Scottish devolution has been divisive that's for sure

Blaming the division on devolution is just a front. The UK is divided on many things, and it's not the act of them being expressed that causes the divisions.

Hang on a minute, last time I looked the majority of folk in Scotland voted for the SNP in both the UK and the Scottish elections! Are they all separatists and nationalists then? Should the UK Gov reverse devolution because the Scots don't vote for the right people? Scots voted for a devolved parliament. Is Boris really saying that the UK Gov should have ignored the Scots, not 'allowed' them to have a devolved parliament and to just shut up and be happy being ruled by the previous centralised, English dominated Gov? All sounds very imperialist to me! This really reflects a19th century, little england mentality to me. Genie is out the bottle guys, better learn how to lead on a more collaborative and shared basis, otherwise your empire, for what its worth, will end up very, very small indeed!

Not sure what you looked at then, 2017 Scottish Elections SNP got 46% of the vote, 45% of the vote in 2019 GE. Not a majority.

[Paddington Bear]

Johnson really is a fucking disaster - the strange thing is I am sure he made it as an off the cuff remark and thought no more about it - he really is that careless. But yet again a freebie handed to the nats who will endlessly repeat it until the blessed day he is ejected from office.

FWIW I do think devolution was cooked up by a Labour establishment who were certain it would create redoubts that would be Labour forever hence the lack of thought about what happens if Nationalists win control and then spend every waking hour using the institutions to try a break up the country.


On the 'ball is rolling and cant be stopped' - is anyone seriously talking about Catalonia or Quebec independence these days?

It's a good point in that there is no natural direction of change that will always lead to more support for independence. It's weird that Quebec has gone from a near 50/50 referendum result to happily (?) being part of Canada within a decade or so.

The viewpoint I've heard from Canadian friends is that younger generations got tired of their parents wanging on about the constitution. I think happily Canadian may be stretching it, but there's more to life than independence.

[Biffer]

Johnson really is a fucking disaster - the strange thing is I am sure he made it as an off the cuff remark and thought no more about it - he really is that careless. But yet again a freebie handed to the nats who will endlessly repeat it until the blessed day he is ejected from office.

FWIW I do think devolution was cooked up by a Labour establishment who were certain it would create redoubts that would be Labour forever hence the lack of thought about what happens if Nationalists win control and then spend every waking hour using the institutions to try a break up the country.


On the 'ball is rolling and cant be stopped' - is anyone seriously talking about Catalonia or Quebec independence these days?

It's a good point in that there is no natural direction of change that will always lead to more support for independence. It's weird that Quebec has gone from a near 50/50 referendum result to happily (?) being part of Canada within a decade or so.

The viewpoint I've heard from Canadian friends is that younger generations got tired of their parents wanging on about the constitution. I think happily Canadian may be stretching it, but there's more to life than independence.

Might be slightly different here given that it's the younger population generally who are more pro-independence.

[dpedin]

Blaming the division on devolution is just a front. The UK is divided on many things, and it's not the act of them being expressed that causes the divisions.

Hang on a minute, last time I looked the majority of folk in Scotland voted for the SNP in both the UK and the Scottish elections! Are they all separatists and nationalists then? Should the UK Gov reverse devolution because the Scots don't vote for the right people? Scots voted for a devolved parliament. Is Boris really saying that the UK Gov should have ignored the Scots, not 'allowed' them to have a devolved parliament and to just shut up and be happy being ruled by the previous centralised, English dominated Gov? All sounds very imperialist to me! This really reflects a19th century, little england mentality to me. Genie is out the bottle guys, better learn how to lead on a more collaborative and shared basis, otherwise your empire, for what its worth, will end up very, very small indeed!

Not sure what you looked at then, 2017 Scottish Elections SNP got 46% of the vote, 45% of the vote in 2019 GE. Not a majority.

Correct - I should have said Seats won ... however points still stands.

[Line6 HXFX]

It is funny, you often hear stuff like
"Boris is temporary and this terrible Tory time will pass, so please don't consider independence. Wait, they will be gone soon enough".
(James O'brian earlier).

The institutions that created Boris, Cameron etc and these aloof dreadful cunts are eternal.
They have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years.

The rich hating the poor, sick and unemployed and smearing the living fuck out of them for a taxcut is eternal.

English arrogance and supremacism is endless and forever.
Brexit is for 50 years..
So what part of this shit is going away in ten years?

[tc27]

English arrogance and supremacism is endless and forever.

What a load of racist rubbish.

[Paddington Bear]

It's a good point in that there is no natural direction of change that will always lead to more support for independence. It's weird that Quebec has gone from a near 50/50 referendum result to happily (?) being part of Canada within a decade or so.

The viewpoint I've heard from Canadian friends is that younger generations got tired of their parents wanging on about the constitution. I think happily Canadian may be stretching it, but there's more to life than independence.

Might be slightly different here given that it's the younger population generally who are more pro-independence.

Well they're young at the moment, but they'll get old, grumpy and piss off their kids like everyone else.

[Biffer]

The viewpoint I've heard from Canadian friends is that younger generations got tired of their parents wanging on about the constitution. I think happily Canadian may be stretching it, but there's more to life than independence.

Might be slightly different here given that it's the younger population generally who are more pro-independence.

Well they're young at the moment, but they'll get old, grumpy and piss off their kids like everyone else.

Yeah, but the point was that after indy in Quebec getting to about 50/50, kids there became voters and were pissed off with their parents bumping on about it. We'll be independent by that time on current trends, given the demographic voting intentions. The kids of the majority independence voting generation will not be voting for another 15 or 20 years, so they'll have to get pissed off about something else.

[Sandstorm]

English arrogance and supremacism is endless and forever.

What a load of racist rubbish.

Ignore Itchbot, he’s a loon. Same shite every day.

[Dogbert]

Massie in the Spectator pretty much nails it

Every so often I make the mistake of thinking Boris Johnson must have exhausted his capacity for indolent carelessness and each time I do he pops up to remind me not to count him out. There are always fresh depths to which he may sink. For he is a Prime Minister who knows little and cares less that he knows so little. In happy times of placid prosperity this might be inconvenient but tolerable; these are not such times.

Speaking to his northern English MPs last night, Johnson declared that devolution has been 'a disaster north of the border' and was the biggest mistake Tony Blair ever made. The implication, quite obviously, is that in a better ordered world the Scottish parliament should be abolished. It is difficult to think how Johnson could more usefully have done Nicola Sturgeon’s work for her. For this is how this talk will be understood: Pipe down Scotland.

This morning, sundry senior figures in the government doubled down on this nonsense. Maybe devolution is not the problem; it’s just that it is being 'misused' by the SNP. The wrong people keep winning elections. Enthusiasts for irony will note this is the same argument promulgated by the SNP: Britain is a disaster, in part because the wrong people keep winning elections. Arguing that devolution has failed because Nicola Sturgeon is first minister is the same as arguing that Britain has failed because Boris Johnson is Prime Minister. Sometimes you wonder if these people deserve each other. A rotten government in Edinburgh no more makes devolution a disaster than Johnson proves the Union’s bankruptcy. (The answer, in each case, is to elect a better government.)

Be that as it may, people like to keep their politicians close. You might think a Brexiteer could understand this. According to the latest edition of the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey – a gold-standard piece of research – 61 per cent of people said they trust the Scottish government to work in the national interest; just 15 per cent trust the UK government to do likewise.

Nor is this merely a reflection of the SNP’s dominance of the Scottish political scene. Nearly two thirds of Labour supporters trust the Scottish government to work in Scotland’s interests and even, perhaps remarkably, a third of Scottish Conservative voters do too.

If that is worth a raised eyebrow, so is the research indicating that whereas in 2015 one in three No voters trusted the UK government to advance the Scottish interest, in 2019 barely one in four Unionists are prepared to do so. At the same time, half of Tory voters in Scotland think the parliament gives Scotland a greater voice within the UK.

So I do wish someone could offer the Prime Minister a course in what is still relatively recent British political history. Tony Blair was no great enthusiast for Scottish devolution but he recognised that he had no alternative but to proceed with it. For it was not just the policy of the Scottish Labour party it had become, in the words of the late John Smith, 'the settled will of the Scottish people'. Blair’s decision to subject devolution to a referendum was denounced by many of the scheme’s supporters but it had the advantage of putting the issue beyond doubt. 74 per cent of voters endorsed the creation of a Scottish parliament and 63 per cent agreed it should have tax-raising powers. Blair did not force devolution through; it was forced upon him.

If voters do not feel that devolution has always lived up to the extravagant promises made for it, that does not translate into any great desire to see it abolished. There is a devo-sceptic vote but it is small (and much of it cannot, in any case, be bothered to vote at Holyrood elections). One might argue that the SNP are also devo-sceptics in as much as their preferred outcome is also inherently hostile to devolution but this is, in the end, a too-clever-for-its-own-good argument that convinces no-one. The SNP are against half a loaf because they want a whole one; Tory devo-critics think half a loaf the thin end of the wedge. There is a difference between these positions.

Within the UK, there is no viable alternative to devolution. The parliament, like it or not, is not going anywhere. Nor should it. The Scottish Tories spent the first dozen years of its existence apologising and trying to make up for their previous opposition to the project. That opposition might have been principled and you might even claim it has been vindicated by subsequent events but it was, in the end, a lonely ditch in which to choose to perish. The people, whatever you may think of them, disagreed. And devolution has been a success in as much as it is now a part of the constitutional architecture. Only fools think it can be rolled-back. The UK has always been a hybrid state; a multinational polity that is four countries and one all at the same time. That makes it unusual and, evidently, too confusing for some.

Reactionaries may find it thrilling to stand athwart history shouting ‘No’ but the essence of Toryism is to accept that times change and, this being so, resolve to bend with them. Only then can the truly important, permanent, things be protected. It is typical of Boris Johnson that he should be so very careless about this.

Making devolution ‘work better’ is a wholly reasonable aspiration for Scottish Unionists. That cannot be achieved if the Prime Minister – a man who laughably styles himself ‘Minister for the Union’ – bumbles around the place arguing devolution is a 'disaster'. Characteristically, devolution is fine for London – where it proved useful to Johnson – but deplorable elsewhere. You can add shameless hypocrite to the charge sheet should you feel this lengthy document could do with some extra padding.

I happen to think that enthusiasm for the idea of devolution – or of what it might be – is rather greater than for what devolution has actually delivered. There have, of course, been some achievements; how could there not be in 20 years? But among the greatest may be the extent to which the parliament itself has taken root. We might not like it enough to vote in its elections (turnout tends to be around 50-55 per cent of eligible voters) but we like the idea of it being there anyway. And it is hard not to notice that, after decades in which more Scots moved to England than people from elsewhere in the UK moved to Scotland, that pattern has been reversed since 1999. More folk have moved to Scotland than have left it. That suggests something useful has been happening.

From which it follows that arguing devolution has 'been a disaster' is arguing that the Scottish people are idiots. Even if true, this would be something better left unsaid or unimplied. The parliament may be but a wee thing but it is our small legislature and that makes all the difference. A subtler politician than Boris Johnson would struggle to decouple criticism of Holyrood from a wider, but keenly felt, sense he was insulting Scotland itself. And Boris Johnson is not a subtle politician.

Most popular
Alex Massie
Suzanne Moore’s departure is a sad day for the Guardian
Suzanne Moore’s departure is a sad day for the Guardian
Then again, he’s not much of a politician either. Instead he is something close to a calamity that’s not so very funny anymore. There is a 100 point gap between Nicola Sturgeon’s approval ratings in Scotland and the Prime Minister’s and that is the good news for Johnson since I suspect he has not yet reached rock bottom in Scotland. As Douglas Ross told STV recently, 'You can’t say that the people of Scotland are absolutely wrong' about Johnson and Sturgeon just as you can’t deny the reality of the polling numbers.

Ross is trying to hold a thin blue line against the SNP and at every turn he is sabotaged and undermined and betrayed by the Prime Minister. If it weren’t actually a serious matter it might be worth a gallows chuckle or two. It is, after all, only the future survival of the United Kingdom that is at stake.

Although it has received little attention, Ross has actually recently been making some interesting suggestions. He suggests that the devolved administrations should be able to have some control over immigration to their territories; a one-size fits all UK immigration policy that does not actually fit all sizes needs to be capable of some flexibility.

Still more daringly, the Scottish Tory leader has argued that since the devolved parliaments will be impacted by any post-Brexit trade deals, they should have some input into them. This is a quietly radical departure but one which recognises the changed nature of the United Kingdom. It is obviously doomed.

It is not just a question of policy but of tone too. Tone may even be more important than policy. The SNP could be a collection of incompetent halfwits but everyone recognises that, albeit in their own peculiar way, they want what they think is best for Scotland. It is not so easy to say that Boris Johnson wants the same. And if he is considered suspect then, fairly or not, the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party will be considered suspect too. Johnson almost certainly cannot win in Scotland anyway but he can, or should, at least not make matters worse. It shouldn’t feel as though that is akin to asking the impossible and yet, yes, it does.

Conservatism tends to do best in Scotland when it cloaks itself in the traditions of Unionist-Nationalism. That too is a large ask in the present climate and it might not be enough in any case but it is the best card, the best tradition, the Tories have. That requires respecting, even honouring, Scottish institutions not considering them a 'disaster'; it means insisting upon a distinct Scottish interest the furtherance of which is best achieved by voting for Conservative & Unionist candidates. Nothing is more fatal to Tory prospects north of the border than the suspicion the party neither knows, nor cares for, the country. Yet that is the impression given by this Prime Minister; a man who appears determined to do the SNP’s work for it and to do so unpaid to boot.

Johnson’s comments will be flung at Douglas Ross and the Tories every day between now and the Holyrood elections in May. Ross can protest he takes a different view – and he does – but what use is that when the Prime Minister is the bigger banana in the room? At best, Ross is made to look a chump; more likely he’ll be seen as the organ-grinder’s monkey. That is not a great place from which to start.

Independence is by no means inevitable and it remains possible that the United Kingdom can recover to the extent it actually has a long-term and viable future. That will not be possible while Boris Johnson remains Prime Minister, however. He is a clear and present danger to the country he purports to lead; a poison whose ignorance, carelessness, and indifference promises gotterdammerung and the destruction of the United Kingdom itself. That might seem a fitting legacy for this hapless premier but it remains an undesirable one. Perhaps it will not happen on his watch, but if it happens one day anyway the conditions for it happening will have been helped along by Boris Johnson.

One day, perhaps, even English Tories will appreciate that Scotland is the United Kingdom’s indispensable nation but it may, by then, be too late. For the past four years, many English Tories have made it clear they privilege Brexit over the survival of the United Kingdom. That is their prerogative but they should not be surprised if pursuing it has consequences. So be it, you may feel but while the John Wilkes tendency palpably evident on the Ukip-Tory right may know the price of Union they have little appreciation of its value. It is fine to be in bed with an elephant – the situation in which Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, find themselves – but that requires the elephant to behave itself. Sometimes you do not know what you’ve lost until it’s gone and if that’s true for Scotland in its current mood, it might one day be true for England as well.

The SNP do not have many good answers on many of the detailed, practical, questions that come with independence but as matters stand they do not need them. For politics is not just about detail; it is also a question of attitude and emotion. Here too, Johnson is found miserably wanting in Scotland. He is a disaster. A foreseeable disaster, perhaps, but a greater calamity than even those of us who suspected he’d be no good could have suspected. If he was twice as capable, he’d still be only half as good as a Prime Minister should be. This is the fundamental reality that, once understood, explains all else: the Prime Minister is a liability on a good day and he doesn’t have many good days.

[Slick]

That’s a great piece

[Sandstorm]

Brexit voters also broke up the Union. Fitting.

[dpedin]

That’s a great piece

Excellent articles!

I have always held the belief that it is not that we, the Scots, as a whole have deliberately sought independence from the off but rather the drift of England and the Tory party to the right wing, nationalist, pro Brexit position has meant they have 'left' the union and a such have pushed Wales, NI and Scotland into a difficult position. We have no desire or will to follow them down the route they are following. The desire of the current Tory gov over the last 10 years, but arguable the Labour Party before them, to move to a US style, privatised society where the gap between rich and poor grew bigger and many social institutions were sold off, including parts of the NHS, is an anathema to most in Scotland. We tend to identify more closely with the model of society in northern europe and scandinavia hence the desire to remain part of the EU. I dont think we have changed much politically in the last 10-20 years but rather England, as characterised best by the Blonde Bumblecunt and his Brexit Ultras have drifted further and further to the right and away from us, Wales and NI. Break up of the UK was a price many Brexiteers were comfortable with but in the same way they didnt understand the consequences of Brexit they dont understand the cost of breaking up the UK. BB response is to retreat to the imperialist attitude of those he most admires, such as Churchill, and to suggest we need to control the natives and take back the freedom we 'gave' them because they can't use it properly and wont make the decisions we want them to make. Attempts to rescue BB just make matters worse for the Tories cause they don't really understand Scotland, as the Assistant referee makes clear!

It is going to end in tears.

[Northern Lights]

That’s a great piece

Yep, he is by far my favourite columnist on Scottish political matters which I am sure most who regularily comment on this thread will know but he more often that not absolutely nails it.

For me there is huge gaping hole for voters like myself who tend to prioritise the economy, business etc as that in the end is what pays for everything else and is woefully neglected not just in Scotland but I would say across the UK. This ground used to be solidly tory but with Brexit and them installing Boris and his cabinet of clowns has disappeared. The SNP actually rose under this with Salmond but have now moved firmly left under Sturgeon. This is where Ross needs to move the Scottish tories imho, focus on the economy which in turn favours remaining in the UK as quite simply Indy will properly fuck the economy and in turn everything else will suffer on the back of it, like Brexit but tenfold worse, I dont think there is a huge amount of emotional attachment to "British" certainly not over being "Scottish" and it would be a complete lost cause to ask the majority to back the emotional investment in being British over Scottish, I still think most are quite happy carrying both but in a binery choice would plump for Scottish over British so why bother trying to fight that lost cause.

[Northern Lights]

That’s a great piece

Excellent articles!

I have always held the belief that it is not that we, the Scots, as a whole have deliberately sought independence from the off but rather the drift of England and the Tory party to the right wing, nationalist, pro Brexit position has meant they have 'left' the union and a such have pushed Wales, NI and Scotland into a difficult position. We have no desire or will to follow them down the route they are following. The desire of the current Tory gov over the last 10 years, but arguable the Labour Party before them, to move to a US style, privatised society where the gap between rich and poor grew bigger and many social institutions were sold off, including parts of the NHS, is an anathema to most in Scotland. We tend to identify more closely with the model of society in northern europe and scandinavia hence the desire to remain part of the EU. I dont think we have changed much politically in the last 10-20 years but rather England, as characterised best by the Blonde Bumblecunt and his Brexit Ultras have drifted further and further to the right and away from us, Wales and NI. Break up of the UK was a price many Brexiteers were comfortable with but in the same way they didnt understand the consequences of Brexit they dont understand the cost of breaking up the UK. BB response is to retreat to the imperialist attitude of those he most admires, such as Churchill, and to suggest we need to control the natives and take back the freedom we 'gave' them because they can't use it properly and wont make the decisions we want them to make. Attempts to rescue BB just make matters worse for the Tories cause they don't really understand Scotland, as the Assistant referee makes clear!

It is going to end in tears.

Dont agree with the highlighted bit as it doesnt stand up to much scrutiny, the major privatisation happen before this time frame and on the whole was largely successful, there are notable exceptions where for example in rail it was handled badly but British Rail before that was a fucking shambles too.

Wealth inequality or Gini has on the whole been fairly stable for the last 10 years, its actually got a bit better since it peaking in 2008.

Globalisation for me is where the West has struggled to keep society together and is why we have seen the rise of populiast parties and politicians who proclaim easy answers to complex questions, whether that is UKIP with get out of the EU, to the SNP with Indy, to Trump in the US. They of course cant actually solve the issues but have been able to capture a large disgruntled voting base.

[tc27]

Well I don't think UKG will agree to a S30 anytime soon so where that leads us I am not sure - worse case is something like a Catalonia style confrontation but I am not sure Sturgeon wants to torpedo her post FM career with a big NGO so that probably wont happen.

(Looking at this completely cynically avoiding having a referendum whilst BJ is PM and Brexit is a 'live issue' make sense. Polls show the constitution is not a priority for voters so really just ride it out and let the Salmondite wing of the party oust Sturgeon and strip the SNP of its faux respectability.)

We tend to identify more closely with the model of society in northern europe and scandinavia hence the desire to remain part of the EU

A bit of a tired trope this - there is very little difference in the social values of people living north or south of the border, most Scottish people live and work in the central belt which is far more similar to the rest of the UK than Norway or Sweden. Using devolved tax powers the SNP could right now create a high tax/spend Scandi style welfare state - but they avoid making any changes because it would make them unpopular.

I would also point out the enthusiasm for the EU is an entirely post 2016 invention - the Yes vote in 2014 would have removed Scotland from the EU.

[tc27]

I like this article by Andrew Neil:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... -most.html

Just days after the climax to an extraordinary internal power struggle in No 10, which prompted the departure of his two key advisers, Boris Johnson has blundered into another crisis — once again thanks to his ill-disciplined mouth.

With the Union under increasing strain, the Prime Minister told a meeting of Tory MPs on Monday night that devolution has been 'a disaster north of the border' and 'Tony Blair's biggest mistake'.

His statement has some truth to it. But it is more the product of verbal incontinence than political strategy and will cause real damage to the case for both Unionism and Conservatism in Scotland, given that scepticism towards devolution is on a par with climate change denial in Scottish civil society.

Yet, though Mr Johnson's outburst is likely to be an act of political folly, it has a refreshing honesty to it.

Stagnated

Disaster might be too strong a term. But devolution has been a huge disappointment since it was enacted more than two decades ago. Most of the grand hopes invested in it have been dashed. Far from dampening the flames of separatism, Scottish home rule has added fuel to them.

Rather than promoting enterprise, economic renewal and a vibrant political system, the creation of a new power base in Edinburgh has built something close to a one-party state, complete with a well-feathered nomenclatura and a compliant media.

Scottish officialdom and the political class have done extremely well out of devolution. The rest of Scotland, not so much.

The losers have been a huge number ordinary Scots, for whom educational standards, financial prosperity and social mobility have all stagnated or even declined.

Privately, Tony Blair might admit that Mr Johnson was right. I don't think his heart was ever in this process, but he was pressured into accepting it because devolution was seen by the Labour Party as the legacy of his late predecessor John Smith, who died from a heart attack in 1994, and at the insistence of Gordon Brown.

Mr Blair's willingness to go along with the idea was reinforced by Labour's belief that they would always be in power north of the border, having long had a stranglehold on Scotland's politics, even when they didn't control Westminster. But that arrogance was badly misplaced.


Devolution turned out to be the wrecking ball that was ruthlessly used by the Nationalists to demolish Labour's Scottish citadels. In 1997 the senior Labour Shadow Cabinet Minister George Robertson famously predicted that the establishment of a Scottish Parliament 'would kill nationalism stone dead'.

Just the opposite happened. Devolution created a taxpayer-funded command centre for the Nationalist cause in the heart of Edinburgh, churning out separatist propaganda, whipping up grievances against England, seizing control of the entire machinery of government and exploiting patronage to ensure its creed prevailed across the vital institutions of Scottish public life.

Throughout academia, the top of the public services, the voluntary sector, the civil service and the artistic/cultural elite, there is now a lucrative dependency culture, where jobs and grants are the rewards for sympathy to the cause.

The influence of the Nationalist machine has been further enhanced not just by the continuing transfer of powers from London to Edinburgh, but also through centralisation by the Scottish Government of local government autonomy.

In their own expensive fiefdom, the Nationalists do not practise devolution — they prefer to grab powers from town halls and local bodies. The recent replacement of local police forces with one national constabulary is a classic example of this.

It has hardly been a success. As a result of this remorseless expansion by the state, Scotland is now one of the most over-governed, bureaucratised countries in the Western world.

But sprawling officialdom and political obedience do not equate with effective rule. At the highest level, the calibre of Members of the Scottish Parliament is poor.

I reckon 70 per cent of them would not stand a chance of earning the same in the real world (unlike MPs in the Commons, where a majority could earn more not being MPs).

SNP governance has disappointed in many respects but perhaps most of all in education, for which Scotland used to be world famous.

For a long time, Scotland had a proud tradition of social mobility, where high standards and expectations in schools helped to ensure that bright but poor kids could overcome the disadvantages of their backgrounds.


The belief in excellence not only meant that Scotland proportionately sent more school-leavers to university than England, but also instilled them with the skills to succeed in any field.

It is no coincidence that in Britain's industrial heyday, Scotland was at the forefront of engineering, invention, exploration, scientific advance and the running of the Empire.

I was the beneficiary of this high-quality approach. Although I was brought up in a council house in Paisley, I received an education at my local primary and then at Paisley Grammar school which would have matched that of any private, fee-paying institution in the South-East of England.

From there, I won a place at the University of Glasgow, one of the oldest universities in the world, where there were plenty of other working-class students. But under the SNP, this emphasis on achievement and mobility has degraded.

As standards fall, new barriers to progress have been erected, while the previous superiority over the English system has disappeared. One study in 2018 found that 20 per cent of school leavers in the most deprived areas of England still managed to get to university.

For Scotland the figure was just 13 per cent.

Mediocrity

Similarly, in 2019 the number of students achieving passes in core higher subjects dropped significantly, just as international comparisons showed Scotland falling behind other countries in attainment.

According to Lindsay Paterson, Professor of Education Policy at Edinburgh University, Scotland's system is 'stagnating in mediocrity'.

It is the same story of failure elsewhere. The Nationalists may have built a large nomenclatura dependent on state spending, but there is no sign of a new entrepreneurial class or a dynamic new commercial sector, as exists in London or Manchester.

Most of the big earners in Scotland are not those who take risks and generate real wealth, but those who rely on the largesse of the state, like senior doctors, civil servants, quangocrats, judges, consultants and managers.

The Scots once built the British Empire. Now they build bureaucratic empires.

Nor has devolution created any inspirational new infrastructure that could symbolise a new spirit of national self-confidence, like a high-speed rail link between Edinburgh and Glasgow, which could have regenerated both cities and forged an impressive new urban conurbation of global significance. While progress has stagnated on so many fronts the Nationalists have wallowed in the politics of perpetual victimhood, where the Westminster Government is constantly painted as the source of all Scotland's problems.

Perhaps that explains why Scotland's current rulers have done so little to combat embedded deprivation or poor health. Amazingly, male life expectancy in the East End of Glasgow is just 64.4 years, a threshold that is lower than in Djibouti in East Africa, Mongolia or Pakistan.

This means that Glaswegian men from the East End are on average likely to die before they can claim their state pension, an incredible indictment of Scotland's political elite. In fact, the life expectancy gap between the UK and the poorest parts of Glasgow has worsened over the past 15 years. This is not simply because of 'lack of resources' as Nationalist myth-making suggests. In reality, spending in Scotland is almost £2,000 higher per head than the UK average.

The Edinburgh government is hardly short of resources, thanks to a multi-billion pound transfer of money from London, which would count as the highest budget deficit in Europe if Scotland was independent.

The Nationalists are cavalier about their dismal record in office. All that really matters to them is their ultimate goal of independence. All their actions are viewed through the ideology of independence rather than any impulse to improve the lives of their citizens.

Tragically, Boris Johnson's ill-chosen words, like devolution itself, have only served to boost their crusade.

I think this in particular is spot on:

Devolution created a taxpayer-funded command centre for the Nationalist cause in the heart of Edinburgh, churning out separatist propaganda, whipping up grievances against England, seizing control of the entire machinery of government and exploiting patronage to ensure its creed prevailed across the vital institutions of Scottish public life.

Throughout academia, the top of the public services, the voluntary sector, the civil service and the artistic/cultural elite, there is now a lucrative dependency culture, where jobs and grants are the rewards for sympathy to the cause.

The influence of the Nationalist machine has been further enhanced not just by the continuing transfer of powers from London to Edinburgh, but also through centralisation by the Scottish Government of local government autonomy.

[clydecloggie]

Massie was already my favourite Unionist and that won't change anytime soon if he keeps hitting the nail on the head like that.

I disagree with him on the competence and vision of Douglas Ross, but I guess he can't be blamed for clinging to the only life raft that doesn't seem full of water yet.

I also think Massie would be the sort of person who would hate for Scotland to become independent, but once it happens, would make a positive constructive contribution to that country. Scotland is in desperate need of right-wing twats who are not Brexiteering loonies, to give voice to sane right-wing arguments.

Contrast that with the Andrew Neil piece which is just the usual Brit-fascist drivel. The man is a fantastic interviewer but dear Jezebel his politics suck.

[tc27]

What in Neil's article strikes you as being fascist?

I mean its one think to claim his criticisms of the SNP are unfair but ''fascist' drivel means you found something particularly offensive?

FWIW the habit of demonizing anyone with a platform who is critical of the SNP and independence often with very strong language and confrontation is to me an strong indicator that 'the movement' is not really a progressive one.

[Northern Lights]

Brillo spot on as well and very accurate take on where things stand in Scotland at the moment

This sums up the state of affairs perfectly:

Rather than promoting enterprise, economic renewal and a vibrant political system, the creation of a new power base in Edinburgh has built something close to a one-party state, complete with a well-feathered nomenclatura and a compliant media.

Scottish officialdom and the political class have done extremely well out of devolution. The rest of Scotland, not so much.

[Slick]

FWIW the habit of demonizing anyone with a platform who is critical of the SNP and independence often with very strong language and confrontation is to me an strong indicator that 'the movement' is not really a progressive one.

Spot on. It is one of the more disgusting elements of the whole "debate". It is also something that the SNP leadership could have an influence on but choose not to.

[clydecloggie]

What in Neil's article strikes you as being fascist?

I mean its one think to claim his criticisms of the SNP are unfair but ''fascist' drivel means you found something particularly offensive?

FWIW the habit of demonizing anyone with a platform who is critical of the SNP and independence often with very strong language and confrontation is to me an strong indicator that 'the movement' is not really a progressive one.

Yes, I do find Andrew Neil's ideas particularly offensive. He is a British-Nationalist extremist, convinced of Britain's superiority, and gives a platform to the worst elements of British-Nationalism. He also, in this piece, promotes the idiotic fallacy that businesses generate money and the public sector spends it, and that those who choose life in the public sector are essentially cowards who jump on some mythical gravy train, toe the line, and get rich while doing little of any actual use. It is despicable, and directly contributes to the lack of trust and sometimes outright hostility against people who actually know what they are talking about.

His depiction of how the SNP rules Scotland is breathtakingly hypocritical given how his chums in Westminster have enriched their pals and themselves over the Covid crisis, taking the UK to unheard of levels of corruption.

So, yeah - I find him a quite horrible man and if he maybe is not himself an outright fascist, he's certainly an enabler of ideologies that I would not hesitate in calling fascist. And it's impossible to demonize an actual demon. Good interviewer, though.

[Tichtheid]

What in Neil's article strikes you as being fascist?

I mean its one think to claim his criticisms of the SNP are unfair but ''fascist' drivel means you found something particularly offensive?

FWIW the habit of demonizing anyone with a platform who is critical of the SNP and independence often with very strong language and confrontation is to me an strong indicator that 'the movement' is not really a progressive one.

Yes, I do find Andrew Neil's ideas particularly offensive. He is a British-Nationalist extremist, convinced of Britain's superiority, and gives a platform to the worst elements of British-Nationalism. He also, in this piece, promotes the idiotic fallacy that businesses generate money and the public sector spends it, and that those who choose life in the public sector are essentially cowards who jump on some mythical gravy train, toe the line, and get rich while doing little of any actual use. It is despicable, and directly contributes to the lack of trust and sometimes outright hostility against people who actually know what they are talking about.

His depiction of how the SNP rules Scotland is breathtakingly hypocritical given how his chums in Westminster have enriched their pals and themselves over the Covid crisis, taking the UK to unheard of levels of corruption.

So, yeah - I find him a quite horrible man and if he maybe is not himself an outright fascist, he's certainly an enabler of ideologies that I would not hesitate in calling fascist. And it's impossible to demonize an actual demon. Good interviewer, though.

I stopped listening to Neil when he tried to say trickle down economics works.

[Bimbowomxn]

What in Neil's article strikes you as being fascist?

I mean its one think to claim his criticisms of the SNP are unfair but ''fascist' drivel means you found something particularly offensive?

FWIW the habit of demonizing anyone with a platform who is critical of the SNP and independence often with very strong language and confrontation is to me an strong indicator that 'the movement' is not really a progressive one.

Yes, I do find Andrew Neil's ideas particularly offensive. He is a British-Nationalist extremist, convinced of Britain's superiority, and gives a platform to the worst elements of British-Nationalism. He also, in this piece, promotes the idiotic fallacy that businesses generate money and the public sector spends it, and that those who choose life in the public sector are essentially cowards who jump on some mythical gravy train, toe the line, and get rich while doing little of any actual use. It is despicable, and directly contributes to the lack of trust and sometimes outright hostility against people who actually know what they are talking about.

His depiction of how the SNP rules Scotland is breathtakingly hypocritical given how his chums in Westminster have enriched their pals and themselves over the Covid crisis, taking the UK to unheard of levels of corruption.

So, yeah - I find him a quite horrible man and if he maybe is not himself an outright fascist, he's certainly an enabler of ideologies that I would not hesitate in calling fascist. And it's impossible to demonize an actual demon. Good interviewer, though.

You really couldn’t be more wrong about what a facist is, or what Neil himself is. You really couldn’t be further from the reality.

You comment like “chums in Westminster , over the covid crisis”


Rarely does a post on here anger me as much as this one has, the context of a,life in journalism and politics dismissed by an ignorant bigot.

Your one of the people I hope get “independence “ and all that goes with it,

[Slick]

[clydecloggie]

What in Neil's article strikes you as being fascist?

I mean its one think to claim his criticisms of the SNP are unfair but ''fascist' drivel means you found something particularly offensive?

FWIW the habit of demonizing anyone with a platform who is critical of the SNP and independence often with very strong language and confrontation is to me an strong indicator that 'the movement' is not really a progressive one.

Yes, I do find Andrew Neil's ideas particularly offensive. He is a British-Nationalist extremist, convinced of Britain's superiority, and gives a platform to the worst elements of British-Nationalism. He also, in this piece, promotes the idiotic fallacy that businesses generate money and the public sector spends it, and that those who choose life in the public sector are essentially cowards who jump on some mythical gravy train, toe the line, and get rich while doing little of any actual use. It is despicable, and directly contributes to the lack of trust and sometimes outright hostility against people who actually know what they are talking about.

His depiction of how the SNP rules Scotland is breathtakingly hypocritical given how his chums in Westminster have enriched their pals and themselves over the Covid crisis, taking the UK to unheard of levels of corruption.

So, yeah - I find him a quite horrible man and if he maybe is not himself an outright fascist, he's certainly an enabler of ideologies that I would not hesitate in calling fascist. And it's impossible to demonize an actual demon. Good interviewer, though.

You really couldn’t be more wrong about what a facist is, or what Neil himself is. You really couldn’t be further from the reality.

You comment like “chums in Westminster , over the covid crisis”


Rarely does a post on here anger me as much as this one has, the context of a,life in journalism and politics dismissed by an ignorant bigot.

Your one of the people I hope get “independence “ and all that goes with it,

Settle down, Andrew. Why do you care what some random nobody on the web thinks of you? Never knew you were a rugby man, though. So that's two redeeming features

[Northern Lights]

What in Neil's article strikes you as being fascist?

I mean its one think to claim his criticisms of the SNP are unfair but ''fascist' drivel means you found something particularly offensive?

FWIW the habit of demonizing anyone with a platform who is critical of the SNP and independence often with very strong language and confrontation is to me an strong indicator that 'the movement' is not really a progressive one.

Yes, I do find Andrew Neil's ideas particularly offensive. He is a British-Nationalist extremist, convinced of Britain's superiority, and gives a platform to the worst elements of British-Nationalism. He also, in this piece, promotes the idiotic fallacy that businesses generate money and the public sector spends it, and that those who choose life in the public sector are essentially cowards who jump on some mythical gravy train, toe the line, and get rich while doing little of any actual use. It is despicable, and directly contributes to the lack of trust and sometimes outright hostility against people who actually know what they are talking about.

His depiction of how the SNP rules Scotland is breathtakingly hypocritical given how his chums in Westminster have enriched their pals and themselves over the Covid crisis, taking the UK to unheard of levels of corruption.

So, yeah - I find him a quite horrible man and if he maybe is not himself an outright fascist, he's certainly an enabler of ideologies that I would not hesitate in calling fascist. And it's impossible to demonize an actual demon. Good interviewer, though.

CC,

I am surprised at this from you tbh.

It is quite simple though in that the private sector does indeed create the wealth from where the tax is raised for the public sector to operate, equally the private sector needs an efficient public sector to support it in creating this wealth, it is symbiotic. It is also a fact that in Scotland we have had an explosion of public sector quangos and their like that deliver very little value and are basically shite at what they do, whether that is Scottish Enterprise or the rest. Neil is perfectly right to question this aspect of the public sector and how it has grown under devolution and more specifically the SNP, the more hangers on feathering their own nest in this way the less there is to go to the parts of the public sector that desperately need it whether that is education or health or whatever else.

[Northern Lights]

What in Neil's article strikes you as being fascist?

I mean its one think to claim his criticisms of the SNP are unfair but ''fascist' drivel means you found something particularly offensive?

FWIW the habit of demonizing anyone with a platform who is critical of the SNP and independence often with very strong language and confrontation is to me an strong indicator that 'the movement' is not really a progressive one.

Yes, I do find Andrew Neil's ideas particularly offensive. He is a British-Nationalist extremist, convinced of Britain's superiority, and gives a platform to the worst elements of British-Nationalism. He also, in this piece, promotes the idiotic fallacy that businesses generate money and the public sector spends it, and that those who choose life in the public sector are essentially cowards who jump on some mythical gravy train, toe the line, and get rich while doing little of any actual use. It is despicable, and directly contributes to the lack of trust and sometimes outright hostility against people who actually know what they are talking about.

His depiction of how the SNP rules Scotland is breathtakingly hypocritical given how his chums in Westminster have enriched their pals and themselves over the Covid crisis, taking the UK to unheard of levels of corruption.

So, yeah - I find him a quite horrible man and if he maybe is not himself an outright fascist, he's certainly an enabler of ideologies that I would not hesitate in calling fascist. And it's impossible to demonize an actual demon. Good interviewer, though.

I stopped listening to Neil when he tried to say trickle down economics works.

An oft repeatedly line that no matter how often it is repeated doesnt make it any more wrong.

[Tichtheid]

It is quite simple though in that the private sector does indeed create the wealth from where the tax is raised for the public sector to operate, equally the private sector needs an efficient public sector to support it in creating this wealth, it is symbiotic.

Whilst I agree the public/private sector relationship is symbiotic, I think it's far more complicated than "private sector - wealth creator, public - wealth consumer", there is a myriad of conduits between the private and public sectors through which money flows, eg many private sector businesses depend wholly or heavily on public sector contracts.
Elsewhere it could be argued that private sector goods and services are at the mercy of consumer demand, and it is that demand that ultimately creates wealth.

[Biffer]

Neil’s column is a bit ranty tbh. Many of the criticisms he makes are just because it’s the SNP that are doing it and he hates them, in particular the stuff about patronage in the arts and education sectors - it’s identical in those areas where Westminster has the influence, he just doesn’t like the influence being in Holyrood and used by nationalists. If he was honest in this opinion he’d say the same about the London arts cadre.

[dpedin]

I remember being told a story about Neil when he was in charge of the Scotsman and Evening News on behalf of the Barclay Brothers. He used to fly up from London to Edinburgh every few weeks, get a taxi to the old Royal Scot Hotel at the Maybury roundabout and then held court there for a couple of days. All of the journalists would then be called to see him one-by-one and they would have to travel out there where he would basically shout at them, tell them they were rubbish and then tell them to feck off. Two days of this then he would fly back to London. He was deeply hated by the journalists and his tenure marked the beginning of the end for the Scotsman as a serious newspaper.

[Slick]

I don’t know if it is or not, but it seems odd that positive Covid tests have been at around 1,200 a day for weeks now. Doesn’t seem to deviate much at all.

Any reasons for that? I’m not suggesting anything, just struck me as being odd

[Northern Lights]

Neil’s column is a bit ranty tbh. Many of the criticisms he makes are just because it’s the SNP that are doing it and he hates them, in particular the stuff about patronage in the arts and education sectors - it’s identical in those areas where Westminster has the influence, he just doesn’t like the influence being in Holyrood and used by nationalists. If he was honest in this opinion he’d say the same about the London arts cadre.

Pretty sure he feels the same about Westminster and the same clingers on there, adding a layer of government with yet more of these feather-nesters is not in the public interest, that is not to say devolution is bad more how its operating at the moment which was really the crux of his argument.

[westport]

I don’t know if it is or not, but it seems odd that positive Covid tests have been at around 1,200 a day for weeks now. Doesn’t seem to deviate much at all.

Any reasons for that? I’m not suggesting anything, just struck me as being odd

Can't be the pubs as they are mostly all closed. Kids going to school, catching it and passing it on?

[Slick]

I don’t know if it is or not, but it seems odd that positive Covid tests have been at around 1,200 a day for weeks now. Doesn’t seem to deviate much at all.

Any reasons for that? I’m not suggesting anything, just struck me as being odd

Can't be the pubs as they are mostly all closed. Kids going to school, catching it and passing it on?

I meant more that the figures have been similar for weeks

[westport]

I don’t know if it is or not, but it seems odd that positive Covid tests have been at around 1,200 a day for weeks now. Doesn’t seem to deviate much at all.

Any reasons for that? I’m not suggesting anything, just struck me as being odd

Can't be the pubs as they are mostly all closed. Kids going to school, catching it and passing it on?

I meant more that the figures have been similar for weeks

I know, I was just trying to narrow it down for you

[Northern Lights]

It is quite simple though in that the private sector does indeed create the wealth from where the tax is raised for the public sector to operate, equally the private sector needs an efficient public sector to support it in creating this wealth, it is symbiotic.

Whilst I agree the public/private sector relationship is symbiotic, I think it's far more complicated than "private sector - wealth creator, public - wealth consumer", there is a myriad of conduits between the private and public sectors through which money flows, eg many private sector businesses depend wholly or heavily on public sector contracts.
Elsewhere it could be argued that private sector goods and services are at the mercy of consumer demand, and it is that demand that ultimately creates wealth.

The private sector also creates the consumer demand, people didnt know they wanted a smart phone until they were created for example. Other yes look for what the consumers want and generally who is best at quenching that demand is usually the better company. The companies that feed off the public sector still have to be paid by the taxes raised from elsewhere, you cant create tax revenue from the public sector as such, yes the employees spend their wages on private sector goods which in turn then leads to taxes being recirculated back in but in essence the wealth that is taxed comes from private enterprise and yes it is far more complicated than i could ever adequately describe here.

There are shite private sector companies and there are shite public sector departments and there are equally very good ones, it just so happens that the private sector tends to weed out the shite more efficiently than the public sector (when they arent being propped by the public sector of course). Equally the companies that are heavily focused on public sector delivery are usually the ones that get the most pelters.