NPR

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:04 am Earlier this year when I was in London I was told, iirc, I would have to wait 4 weeks for a GP appointment. Maybe because of the pandemic, but still...

BREAKING
Chancellor expected to scale back energy bills help
Nick Eardley
Chief political correspondent

A source has said it is expected that the government's energy price guarantee will be scaled back by the chancellor.

Universal support is due to last for two years – but the source suggested this was unlikely to remain the case.

The government is not commenting but we'll hear from Jeremy Hunt shortly.

Nearly all of Truss's flagship measures binned

The Truss programme for government is dead.

Nearly every element of her prospectus has just been shredded by her new chancellor.

"We will reverse almost all the tax measures" from the mini-budget, Jeremy Hunt said. What an extraordinary thing to hear.

Not only has the planned cut in the basic rate of income tax been binned, so has the plan originally from Rishi Sunak to cut it in 2024.

The prime minister, who promised to cut taxes by more than her rival over the summer, is now keeping them higher than he planned.

And even the flagship energy support package, the crutch upon which the prime minister has leant whenever asked a tricky question in the last few weeks, has shrivelled vastly.

It is now a six month package, not a two year one. What a day.

And it’s not even lunchtime.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:23 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:04 am Earlier this year when I was in London I was told, iirc, I would have to wait 4 weeks for a GP appointment. Maybe because of the pandemic, but still...

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:29 am What an omnishambles

Nearly all of Truss's flagship measures binned

The Truss programme for government is dead.

Nearly every element of her prospectus has just been shredded by her new chancellor.

"We will reverse almost all the tax measures" from the mini-budget, Jeremy Hunt said. What an extraordinary thing to hear.

Not only has the planned cut in the basic rate of income tax been binned, so has the plan originally from Rishi Sunak to cut it in 2024.

The prime minister, who promised to cut taxes by more than her rival over the summer, is now keeping them higher than he planned.

And even the flagship energy support package, the crutch upon which the prime minister has leant whenever asked a tricky question in the last few weeks, has shrivelled vastly.

It is now a six month package, not a two year one. What a day.

And it’s not even lunchtime.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:41 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:04 am Earlier this year when I was in London I was told, iirc, I would have to wait 4 weeks for a GP appointment. Maybe because of the pandemic, but still...

At least 2 weeks is pretty standard round my way. They also tell you not to come in if you are sick. Last time I needed to see the doc I had to postpone several times until I was well enough to attend

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:06 am I just don't see the endpoint ?

If he'd rolled back everything but the fuel supports, & announced an Energy Levy, then I could see them surviving awhile; but as it is, the Fuel support might as well be gone, & the MPs know that will result in them all losing their seats.

I don't know how they'll get enough of their own to vote for the shitshow.

Wednesday will be interesting, because even if she ducks PMQs, she can escape the 1922 Committee, & they'll want blood this week.

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:01 am

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:41 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:04 am Earlier this year when I was in London I was told, iirc, I would have to wait 4 weeks for a GP appointment. Maybe because of the pandemic, but still...

At least 2 weeks is pretty standard round my way. They also tell you not to come in if you are sick. Last time I needed to see the doc I had to postpone several times until I was well enough to attend

The last time I tried to get a GP appointment, you could theoretically get a same day appointment for emergencies by ringing the surgery at 8:00 a.m., or you could book an appointment for at least 2 weeks later for routine matters. However, in the last 4 years I have never once been able to secure a same day appointment - each time I have tried, I have been told that all appointments have gone, and to try again the following day or ring NHS Direct. The last time I spoke to a GP was 2 years ago, and that was an appointment they arranged rather than me.

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:09 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:06 am I just don't see the endpoint ?

If he'd rolled back everything but the fuel supports, & announced an Energy Levy, then I could see them surviving awhile; but as it is, the Fuel support might as well be gone, & the MPs know that will result in them all losing their seats.

I don't know how they'll get enough of their own to vote for the shitshow.

Wednesday will be interesting, because even if she ducks PMQs, she can escape the 1922 Committee, & they'll want blood this week.

There were several rumours over the weekend that, after her dismal presser on Friday, the Tory big wigs were agreed that she couldn't be allowed to face another PMQs and would have to be gone by Wednesday.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:21 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:09 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:06 am I just don't see the endpoint ?

If he'd rgolled back everything but the fuel supports, & announced an Energy Levy, then I could see them surviving awhile; but as it is, the Fuel support might as well be gone, & the MPs know that will result in them all losing their seats.

I don't know how they'll get enough of their own to vote for the shitshow.

Wednesday will be interesting, because even if she ducks PMQs, she can escape the 1922 Committee, & they'll want blood this week.

There were several rumours over the weekend that, after her dismal presser on Friday, the Tory big wigs were agreed that she couldn't be allowed to face another PMQs and would have to be gone by Wednesday.

And yet this was the candidate they elected; even when her limitations were obvious for all to see !

"Pork Markets" .... waits for rapturous applause ....

What are they going to do ?, anoint another one, & tell the British people; "Trust us !"

I see one of the wankers in the Torygraph saying that this is what happens when you kick out an elected PM, & so the only solution is to bring back the Bumblecunt

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:27 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:21 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:09 am

There were several rumours over the weekend that, after her dismal presser on Friday, the Tory big wigs were agreed that she couldn't be allowed to face another PMQs and would have to be gone by Wednesday.

And yet this was the candidate they elected; even when her limitations were obvious for all to see !

"Pork Markets" .... waits for rapturous applause ....

What are they going to do ?, anoint another one, & tell the British people; "Trust us !"

I see one of the wankers in the Torygraph saying that this is what happens when you kick out an elected PM, & so the only solution is to bring back the Bumblecunt

Most of the MPs didn't want her. Only 14% voted for her in the 1st round, and she was consistently behind both Sunak and Mordaunt in the 1st four MP ballots. It was only gerrymandering by the Brexit loons that got her onto the final members vote ahead of Mordaunt.

She won the members' vote because most of them are idiots and/or racists.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:31 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:27 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:21 am

And yet this was the candidate they elected; even when her limitations were obvious for all to see !

"Pork Markets" .... waits for rapturous applause ....

What are they going to do ?, anoint another one, & tell the British people; "Trust us !"

I see one of the wankers in the Torygraph saying that this is what happens when you kick out an elected PM, & so the only solution is to bring back the Bumblecunt

Most of the MPs didn't want her. Only 14% voted for her in the 1st round, and she was consistently behind both Sunak and Mordaunt in the 1st four MP ballots. It was only gerrymandering by the Brexit loons that got her onto the final members vote ahead of Mordaunt.

She won the members' vote because most of them are idiots and/or racists.

I doubt the majority of the British public give a fuck on the mechanism; they just see a Government chosen by the Tory Party; & been so inept, that people will now lose their homes, & Nations finances are fubar for the foreseeable future.

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:01 am

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:41 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:04 am Earlier this year when I was in London I was told, iirc, I would have to wait 4 weeks for a GP appointment. Maybe because of the pandemic, but still...

At least 2 weeks is pretty standard round my way. They also tell you not to come in if you are sick. Last time I needed to see the doc I had to postpone several times until I was well enough to attend

The last time I tried to get a GP appointment, you could theoretically get a same day appointment for emergencies by ringing the surgery at 8:00 a.m., or you could book an appointment for at least 2 weeks later for routine matters. However, in the last 4 years I have never once been able to secure a same day appointment - each time I have tried, I have been told that all appointments have gone, and to try again the following day or ring NHS Direct. The last time I spoke to a GP was 2 years ago, and that was an appointment they arranged rather than me.

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:46 am Well after Hunts statement it is clear that Truss is dead in the water. I am convinced she will not be around for PMQs on Wednesday - she will either have gone or else provide a sick note. I am also pretty convinced that she is in midst of some sort of breakdown/loss of confidence and is being protected from public view by No10 to avoid any further economic and political crisis. The only question is what happens next - a coup by either right or less right wing tories or a General election? I still have a gut feel that they will walk and leave Labour with this shitshow to sort out and try and regroup for 4-5 years time.

On a happier note the Sovereign Individual/Britannia Unchained/Tufton Street nutters should hopefully be gotten rid off as the Tory party will split and they align with the 'son of UKIP' version of the Tories. I would hope the more sensible tories, I say that with a modicum of irony, start taking over their party again.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:49 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:46 am Well after Hunts statement it is clear that Truss is dead in the water. I am convinced she will not be around for PMQs on Wednesday - she will either have gone or else provide a sick note. I am also pretty convinced that she is in midst of some sort of breakdown/loss of confidence and is being protected from public view by No10 to avoid any further economic and political crisis. The only question is what happens next - a coup by either right or less right wing tories or a General election? I still have a gut feel that they will walk and leave Labour with this shitshow to sort out and try and regroup for 4-5 years time.

On a happier note the Sovereign Individual/Britannia Unchained/Tufton Street nutters should hopefully be gotten rid off as the Tory party will split and they align with the 'son of UKIP' version of the Tories. I would hope the more sensible tories, I say that with a modicum of irony, start taking over their party again.

Given the GOP's doubling down on Trumpy election deniers as candidates for every position they can fill, I would be surprised if the Tories don't go more Brexity and Tufton Street. The idea was pure, it was stabbed in the back by Remaniac civil servants, judges, the MSM, the markets, unfaithful MPs, liberals, Labour, the EU, lefty lawyers, the metropolitan elite and Methodists!

Will Truss/Kwarteng resort to the mother of all humiliations and be forced into the biggest U turn since Gladstone’s adoption of Home Rule for Ireland? If so, Kwarteng’s career is over. Not even a “jobs for the boys” awaits him in the City after this. If not, don’t bet on Truss not becoming the shortest reigning PM in history, thus eclipsing Douglas-Home’s 366 days (he at least made it past one year in Downing Street).

salanya wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:37 am What I'm finding interesting and which doesn't seem to get discussed much, is that the PM and CEx seem to make all the calls without discussing with or even informing the cabinet.

Obviously leadership and taking charge is very important and something Liz is no good at, but good leaders also consult and built a consensus, even if only with a leadership group like the cabinet. That's how you built support and can hone policy if required.
At least with Boris you knew he was too lazy to think and decide on his own, and many others were involved.

Two people, however high up the leadership chain, shouldn't be able to implement the type of changes that tank the national economy - this should be a democratic government, not some soft version of dictatorship. As well as not having the skills for the job, this is why Liz has to go.

As attorney general and as minister, I was constantly reminded of the extent to which the British system of government had been hollowed out and converted into a quasi-presidential system in which collective cabinet authority had completely atrophied. I remember surprising a UK attorney general by telling him that Irish cabinet meetings lasted a good number of hours, and individual memoranda and decisions were tabled, discussed as necessary, and collectively approved or rejected.

Cabinet meetings in Downing Street, by contrast, can last 30 minutes and much UK business is done on the basis of subcommittee meetings, circulated papers and the ratification of decisions made by non-ministerial kitchen cabinet meetings of advisers. I had the impression that many UK ministers found out what their government was doing after the fact and after the press was briefed by “Downing St sources”.

Coalition governments necessarily require a less presidential style of administration. The sad fact is that the UK has utterly degraded its internal systems of governmental checks and balances.

Camroc2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:01 pm

salanya wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:37 am What I'm finding interesting and which doesn't seem to get discussed much, is that the PM and CEx seem to make all the calls without discussing with or even informing the cabinet.

Obviously leadership and taking charge is very important and something Liz is no good at, but good leaders also consult and built a consensus, even if only with a leadership group like the cabinet. That's how you built support and can hone policy if required.
At least with Boris you knew he was too lazy to think and decide on his own, and many others were involved.

Two people, however high up the leadership chain, shouldn't be able to implement the type of changes that tank the national economy - this should be a democratic government, not some soft version of dictatorship. As well as not having the skills for the job, this is why Liz has to go.

Ex Irish Attorney General and Minister McDowell had a recent column in the IT covering this very point . An extract from the article :

As attorney general and as minister, I was constantly reminded of the extent to which the British system of government had been hollowed out and converted into a quasi-presidential system in which collective cabinet authority had completely atrophied. I remember surprising a UK attorney general by telling him that Irish cabinet meetings lasted a good number of hours, and individual memoranda and decisions were tabled, discussed as necessary, and collectively approved or rejected.

Cabinet meetings in Downing Street, by contrast, can last 30 minutes and much UK business is done on the basis of subcommittee meetings, circulated papers and the ratification of decisions made by non-ministerial kitchen cabinet meetings of advisers. I had the impression that many UK ministers found out what their government was doing after the fact and after the press was briefed by “Downing St sources”.

Coalition governments necessarily require a less presidential style of administration. The sad fact is that the UK has utterly degraded its internal systems of governmental checks and balances.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022 ... -balances/

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:35 pm

Camroc2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:01 pm

salanya wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:37 am What I'm finding interesting and which doesn't seem to get discussed much, is that the PM and CEx seem to make all the calls without discussing with or even informing the cabinet.

Obviously leadership and taking charge is very important and something Liz is no good at, but good leaders also consult and built a consensus, even if only with a leadership group like the cabinet. That's how you built support and can hone policy if required.
At least with Boris you knew he was too lazy to think and decide on his own, and many others were involved.

Two people, however high up the leadership chain, shouldn't be able to implement the type of changes that tank the national economy - this should be a democratic government, not some soft version of dictatorship. As well as not having the skills for the job, this is why Liz has to go.

Ex Irish Attorney General and Minister McDowell had a recent column in the IT covering this very point . An extract from the article :

As attorney general and as minister, I was constantly reminded of the extent to which the British system of government had been hollowed out and converted into a quasi-presidential system in which collective cabinet authority had completely atrophied. I remember surprising a UK attorney general by telling him that Irish cabinet meetings lasted a good number of hours, and individual memoranda and decisions were tabled, discussed as necessary, and collectively approved or rejected.

Cabinet meetings in Downing Street, by contrast, can last 30 minutes and much UK business is done on the basis of subcommittee meetings, circulated papers and the ratification of decisions made by non-ministerial kitchen cabinet meetings of advisers. I had the impression that many UK ministers found out what their government was doing after the fact and after the press was briefed by “Downing St sources”.

Coalition governments necessarily require a less presidential style of administration. The sad fact is that the UK has utterly degraded its internal systems of governmental checks and balances.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022 ... -balances/

Surprisingly, not many of us subscribe to the Irish Times...

Liz Truss government’s actions underline how the UK is run by an ‘elective dictatorship’
Kwarteng’s actions - without prior cabinet approval - simply could not happen in Ireland where the Constitution demands collective responsibility from government

Michael McDowell
Wed Oct 5 2022 - 05:51

The revelation that UK chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng committed Britain to a programme of unfunded tax cuts and unfunded borrowing without even discussing the abolition of the 45 per cent tax rate for highest earners with the cabinet had many Irish people scratching their heads.

Ireland has a written Constitution which radically differs from the non-constitutional agglomeration of conventions that some in the UK describe as “the British constitution”.

For one thing, the British cabinet system of government has been permitted to mutate and decay to the extent that the late Tory politician Lord Hailsham famously described the office of prime minister as an “elective dictatorship”.

In theory, the British cabinet is still a subcommittee of the entire privy council, a body including all present and former cabinet members, together with a select set of people including, by convention, the leaders of the opposition parties at Westminster. The entire privy council was once the monarch’s executive organ of government. But from the 17th century, a system of ministers appointed by the monarch developed on the basis that a leading politician was invited by the monarch to form an administration which would command the confidence of the House of Commons.

I had the impression that many UK ministers found out what their government was doing after the fact and after the press was briefed by ‘Downing St sources’

In the Republic by contrast, the “head of the Government or Prime Minister” or taoiseach is appointed by the president on the nomination of a majority in the Dáil. Members of the government are also appointed by the president on the taoiseach’s nomination but only with the prior approval of the Dáil. There is no question of a taoiseach being chosen by the president or being invited to form a government, or of members of government being appointed without the approval of the Dáil.

Even when Ireland was a Free State, its Constitution was exceptional among self-governing dominions in that the head of the government was nominated by the Dáil for appointment, rather than invited or chosen for appointment by the governor general.


While a taoiseach and a British prime minister can at any time advise the removal from office of any minister, unlike in Britain no replacement minister may be appointed without the prior approval of the Dáil.

Most importantly, the Irish Constitution provides that the government must “meet and act as a collective authority” and be “collectively responsible” for the departments of State overseen by its members. The government must also collectively prepare annual budgets and collectively present them to the Dáil for consideration. The government as a whole is collectively “responsible to Dáil Éireann”.

There is simply no possibility that the Dáil could approve an abolition of the top tax rate or authorise a splurge of unfunded borrowing without a prior decision to that effect by the members of the government, still less without discussion as happened in the UK this week.



As attorney general and as minister, I was constantly reminded of the extent to which the British system of government had been hollowed out and converted into a quasi-presidential system in which collective cabinet authority had completely atrophied. I remember surprising a UK attorney general by telling him that Irish cabinet meetings lasted a good number of hours, and individual memoranda and decisions were tabled, discussed as necessary, and collectively approved or rejected.

Cabinet meetings in Downing Street, by contrast, can last 30 minutes and much UK business is done on the basis of subcommittee meetings, circulated papers and the ratification of decisions made by non-ministerial kitchen cabinet meetings of advisers. I had the impression that many UK ministers found out what their government was doing after the fact and after the press was briefed by “Downing St sources”.

Coalition governments necessarily require a less presidential style of administration. The sad fact is that the UK has utterly degraded its internal systems of governmental checks and balances.


All this has been developing in the UK for the last half century. Boris Johnson’s ill-fated spell in office marked the high point of prime ministerial autocracy. The antics of his adviser Dominic Cummings were the antithesis of collective cabinet accountability. While the brilliant TV series, The Thick of It, may on occasion have seemed more parody than reality, the all-powerful character of Malcolm Tucker, berating and removing ministers with equal aggression, had more than a chilling element of truth about it.

[ British minister apologises to Irish Government over Brexit negotiations ]

Would an Irish government behave in the way that Johnson, his Brexit negotiator David Frost, and the head of the hardline pro-Brext European Research group, Steve Baker, did towards the Ireland and the EU over the Northern Ireland Protocol? There would have been cabinet discussion here at least. They would have been challenged.

The departure of Johnson, Truss’s embarrassments, Baker’s belated but welcome apology and Kwarteng’s humiliating U-turn may just mark the re-establishment in British politics of the norms that government must be collective, actions must have consequences, and facts always catch up with fantasists.

A written constitution has its merits.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:01 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:19 pm I was a 'reluctant remainer' in 2016 but the events of the last few days have confirmed that (at least in economic terms) sovereignty is increasingly meaningless in for nations that are not the US (because it has the dollar) or possibly China (which can squash any resentment its economic policies cause).

If gilt markets and FX traders can overturn a governments budget and I think within a few days over throw a government the advantage of being outside the regulatory sphere of the EU/EEA and having a completely sovereign Parliament seem increasingly slim (compared the the economic and personnel advantages). Whilst I think EU membership it too contentious for some decades yet I hope a re-entry into the single market is now more likely (all those brilliant think tanks will have to find another lab for their ideas).

This is all very positive for markets. It’s not just the numbers, but the fact he’s done away with the unapologetic tone and underlined that the government is listening to markets.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:31 pm I see investment zones and the effective windfall tax on renewable energy have stayed on the agenda.

‘We were in a meeting to discuss the Budget,’ one aide told me, ‘and one of her advisers said, “I think there’s a problem with this. It’s going to look like our priority is tax cuts for the rich.”
‘And she just turned on him. She literally shouted him down.’ Now she must accept responsibility for her mistakes. Or her party must make her accept responsibility.

Now sources have claimed that the most contentious policy, the proposed cut in the top rate to 40p, was effectively forced on Mr Kwarteng after he suggested to Ms Truss that it should be delayed until next year to avoid ‘doing too much at once’.
The PM is understood to have said: ‘No – let’s go for it.’
When this newspaper asked Mr Kwarteng after the mini-budget whether Ms Truss had ‘bounced’ him into the cut, he paused before responding: ‘I think we were agreed on that.’

_Os_ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:11 pm
What that Irish Times article is describing is just the convention of the UK's unwritten constitution as it stands today, that's how it functions. If anyone wants something different they'll need some rules that are above parliament (outside a parliamentary super majority that allows those rules to be changed), or hope everyone that becomes PM doesn't want be a quasi-president. A lot of the stuff going wrong in the UK is about these questions, but the UK media attacks anyone proposing change that has any hope of implementing those changes and makes them unelectable (which is why Starmer avoids the topic, opposes PR and opposes SM/CU membership, anything else would mean the media making him unelectable).

The sun god wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:45 pm I see that she is now in hiding !!!!..... Unbelievable .