The Official English Rugby Thread

[Dinsdale Piranha]

One for JM?

England midfielder Joe Marchant has been strongly linked with a switch to the Top 14 following next year’s World Cup in France. The Harlequins player has currently slipped down the Test selection pecking order under Eddie Jones. After starting the series-opening loss to Australia last July in Perth, the 26-year-old wasn’t picked for the other two tour matches and he was also omitted from the 36-strong squad for last week’s three-day training camp in London.

In the meantime, it has been reported in France that Marchant is said to be in advanced contact with Stade Francais about joining them next season. The Parisians currently have Paul Gustard, Marchant’s ex-Harlequins boss, on their books as defence coach and they are already planning for next season with two of Fabien Galthie’s France team assistants, Laurent Labit and Karim Ghezal, having agreed to take over following the World Cup.

Would be very disappointing as Marchant is class but if EJ is picking Porter ahead of him after Porter's bed-shitting performances then playing for England isn't any draw.

That's similar to how Quins got Nick Evans. NZ picked an injured Dan Carter ahead of him so he decided he was wasting his time.

[JM2K6]

Talking of flankers, how well has Evans kicked off this season? Just looking on the prem site and he's won double the number of turnovers as his nearest competition.

How's he been around the park, or is has he been quiet outside of that?

He's been pretty good in defence - putting in some surprisingly big hits - but after a bright start hasn't done that much with ball in hand. Still, I'll take the tackling on top of his ridiculous ability over the ball.

Willis is stronger over the ball but Evans is quicker. You'd back Willis to be the better international but still...

One for JM?

England midfielder Joe Marchant has been strongly linked with a switch to the Top 14 following next year’s World Cup in France. The Harlequins player has currently slipped down the Test selection pecking order under Eddie Jones. After starting the series-opening loss to Australia last July in Perth, the 26-year-old wasn’t picked for the other two tour matches and he was also omitted from the 36-strong squad for last week’s three-day training camp in London.

In the meantime, it has been reported in France that Marchant is said to be in advanced contact with Stade Francais about joining them next season. The Parisians currently have Paul Gustard, Marchant’s ex-Harlequins boss, on their books as defence coach and they are already planning for next season with two of Fabien Galthie’s France team assistants, Laurent Labit and Karim Ghezal, having agreed to take over following the World Cup.

It's rare these rumours don't pan out, sadly. I'll be gutted to see him leave but when the international door gets slammed in your face by a petulant vindictive poison dwarf with a magic 8-ball for selection, I can see how the money makes sense. Quins have a glut of good young centres and wings so he probably feels like there's a lot of competition and he wouldn't be leaving Quins in a hole. Keeping to the salary cap means losing players like this, unfortunately.

[Margin__Walker]

Talking of flankers, how well has Evans kicked off this season? Just looking on the prem site and he's won double the number of turnovers as his nearest competition.

How's he been around the park, or is has he been quiet outside of that?

He's been pretty good in defence but after a bright start hasn't done that much with ball in hand. Still, I'll take the tackling on top of his ridiculous ability over the ball.

Willis is stronger over the ball but Evans is quicker. You'd back Willis to be the better international but still...

Sure, don't see him as likely to be playing international rugby any time soon, but good to see him performing at a decent level after injury.

On Marchant, wouldn't surprise me either if there wasn't something in it. These are the kind of players you'll lose to France. Peak age, high quality, slightly (or completely) out of favour internationally. You won't see the exodus that some fear, as there's only really France and Japan they can go for big pay days. Both leagues have pretty tight homegrown quotas, so there aren't that many slots available. But you will see some excellent players make the jump.

[SaintK]

I thought things were going too well...

Hope he's ok, but that was terrible defence from Umaga. May as well have just let him land and score.

Umaga only got 3 weeks. Considering that's his 3rd red in fairly short order he can consider himself lucky!

[Raggs]

I thought things were going too well...

Hope he's ok, but that was terrible defence from Umaga. May as well have just let him land and score.

Umaga only got 3 weeks. Considering that's his 3rd red in fairly short order he can consider himself lucky!

I was surprised to see it was only 3 weeks too. Though they are suspending it until he's recovered from injury, first time I've seen that.

[Margin__Walker]

I thought things were going too well...

Hope he's ok, but that was terrible defence from Umaga. May as well have just let him land and score.

Umaga only got 3 weeks. Considering that's his 3rd red in fairly short order he can consider himself lucky!

I was surprised to see it was only 3 weeks too. Though they are suspending it until he's recovered from injury, first time I've seen that.

Seen it done a few times. Most notably with Chris Hala'ufia a good while ago now. Shattered his arm clotheslining some poor Frenchman. They waited several months for it to heal, before slapping an 11 week ban on him.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/ ... d-11-weeks

[Raggs]

Umaga only got 3 weeks. Considering that's his 3rd red in fairly short order he can consider himself lucky!

I was surprised to see it was only 3 weeks too. Though they are suspending it until he's recovered from injury, first time I've seen that.

Seen it done a few times. Most notably with Chris Hala'ufia a good while ago now. Shattered his arm clotheslining some poor Frenchman. They waited several months for it to heal, before slapping an 11 week ban on him.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/ ... d-11-weeks

Fair enough. I'm not complaining about it, just hadn't seen it before.

[Margin__Walker]

Doesn't happen often tbf, but I guess it relies on the guilty party picking up a notable injury in the same incident (or at leas the same game).

[Margin__Walker]

Looks like the game at the weekend may be off.

[JM2K6]

Dreadful news. Sorry Wasps fans. Must be sickening.

[Margin__Walker]

Pretty disastrous for all involved. Hopefully there's a last minute route out of this of some sort.

Two clubs dropping out of the league has a huge knock on impact, both in terms of players without clubs and lost home fixtures for a few other clubs that are already desperate for revenue that they will have budgeted on.

Would the league also run into difficulty with BT contractually too etc.

[JM2K6]

The site's getting hammered - here's the statement:

A spokesperson for Wasps Holdings Limited, said: “Since filing a notice of intention to appoint administrators on 21st September, we have been working tirelessly to secure the long-term future for Wasps Holdings Limited, and all of the organisations and clubs that sit within the Group.



“Negotiations to secure deals that will allow the Men’s and Women’s rugby teams, netball team and the arena and associated business to move forward are ongoing. However, it has become clear that there is likely to be insufficient time to find a solvent solution for the companies within the group, and it is therefore likely that they will enter into administration in the coming days with a view to concluding deals shortly thereafter.



“While the companies within the Group all represent strong and viable businesses, the reality is that they have insufficient cash at this time to continue to fund operations until these complex negotiations have concluded. We have therefore been asking potential funders and investors to provide bridging finance to provide enough time for a solvent solution to be found. Regrettably, this has not been possible to date, although we will continue to pursue this until the very last opportunity.



“In light of the current situation, we have therefore taken the decision to withdraw the Wasps Men’s team from this Saturday’s league fixture against Exeter Chiefs. This was an extremely difficult decision to make and we recognise that this will not only impact on our players, staff and supporters, but also Exeter Chiefs and the wider rugby community. However, we strongly believe it is the right course of action when, at this time, we are unable to meet our regulatory requirements in the absence of fully concluded deal negotiations.



“We understand that this news will be disappointing and concerning for everyone involved. Our immediate focus will be on ensuring that all of our players and the staff of Wasps and the arena are fully updated and given the support they need.



“While these are challenging times, we remain confident that new owners will be found that will allow the clubs and businesses within the Group to move forward.



“We will not be making any further statement at this time.”

[Kawazaki]

Very very bad week for English rugby. I'm certain that this won't be the end of Wasps, I just don't know where on earth they will play if they leave Coventry.

I do think there are serious questions that Derek Richardson needs to answer as well - it appears from the outside that the £35m bond was never even close to being paid back.

[sockwithaticket]

Well shit. Not exactly unforeseen, but I'd been harbouring a slight hope that we might be able to avoid actually going into administration with a midnight hour rescue deal of some sort.

Wonder what the squad will look like next season in the Championship? Would imagine anyone with a break clause will activate it.

[Kawazaki]

Well shit. Not exactly unforeseen, but I'd been harbouring a slight hope that we might be able to avoid actually going into administration with a midnight hour rescue deal of some sort.

Wonder what the squad will look like next season in the Championship? Would imagine anyone with a break clause will activate it.

Not so much what league Wasps will play in next season, more a case of what ground. Where will they play?

[Torquemada 1420]

Well shit. Not exactly unforeseen, but I'd been harbouring a slight hope that we might be able to avoid actually going into administration with a midnight hour rescue deal of some sort.

Wonder what the squad will look like next season in the Championship? Would imagine anyone with a break clause will activate it.

We are now running this over 2 threads. Any chance of mods folding the other one into here?

Anyway, with a ring fenced Prem, what happens to Wuss and Wasps even if they walk the Championship next season?

[sockwithaticket]

Well shit. Not exactly unforeseen, but I'd been harbouring a slight hope that we might be able to avoid actually going into administration with a midnight hour rescue deal of some sort.

Wonder what the squad will look like next season in the Championship? Would imagine anyone with a break clause will activate it.

Not so much what league Wasps will play in next season, more a case of what ground. Where will they play?

True, the ground will be one of the first assets to go. Our experience with Adams Park was that it's not financially viable to be someone else's tenant. Not that I've looked into it, but I can't see there being a huge number of grounds available to buy and none will be anywhere near as attractive in terms of ancillary facilities as the Cov arena.

Presumably the brand spanking new training facility we unveiled at the beginning of last season will be sold off too.

[sockwithaticket]

Well shit. Not exactly unforeseen, but I'd been harbouring a slight hope that we might be able to avoid actually going into administration with a midnight hour rescue deal of some sort.

Wonder what the squad will look like next season in the Championship? Would imagine anyone with a break clause will activate it.

We are now running this over 2 threads. Any chance of mods folding the other one into here?

Anyway, with a ring fenced Prem, what happens to Wuss and Wasps even if they walk the Championship next season?

Bigger question is what's the Prem even going to look like. 11 teams is an odd number in more than the literal sense. Baxter's been openly talking about 10 teams being best and there's rumours of another club likely to go bust inside the next 12 months.

Automatic promotion and relegation was due to be restored for 24/25, but I think the idea was for this season and next that any team who met the criteria could come up to bring about a 14 team league. That'll probably all have to be looked at again.

If there's no hope of coming back out of the Championship quickly, then I guess the exodus for both teams will be much more considerable than it might otherwise have been.

[JM2K6]

Losing the income from 2 home matches isn't going to help the league either

[Margin__Walker]

I assume they will just wait for the next team to fail and solidify at 10 teams.

Assuming that doesn't happen in the next few months, it will be an odd season with bye weeks all over the place.

[Torquemada 1420]

Well shit. Not exactly unforeseen, but I'd been harbouring a slight hope that we might be able to avoid actually going into administration with a midnight hour rescue deal of some sort.

Wonder what the squad will look like next season in the Championship? Would imagine anyone with a break clause will activate it.

We are now running this over 2 threads. Any chance of mods folding the other one into here?

Anyway, with a ring fenced Prem, what happens to Wuss and Wasps even if they walk the Championship next season?

Bigger question is what's the Prem even going to look like. 11 teams is an odd number in more than the literal sense. Baxter's been openly talking about 10 teams being best and there's rumours of another club likely to go bust inside the next 12 months.

Automatic promotion and relegation was due to be restored for 24/25, but I think the idea was for this season and next that any team who met the criteria could come up to bring about a 14 team league. That'll probably all have to be looked at again.

If there's no hope of coming back out of the Championship quickly, then I guess the exodus for both teams will be much more considerable than it might otherwise have been.

11 clubs = 20 games so don't imagine that's too much of a problem.

As for the rest, I guess who knows? Wonder who the other club is though?

[Prembore]

Not a good advert for the pro game, all this.

I guess if Wasps can secure the funding they've been mentioning but failing to make materialise so far, they can send players out on loan like Saracens did and hope to come back up in a year.

But I doubt we'll see either them or Worcester in the top flight again.

[Kawazaki]

Even if you hate Saracens, you've gotta love this. A superb fuck off. Well done Ben

[Prembore]

Prick on the pitch...

[Paddington Bear]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

[geordie_6]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

Ruck claiming that Itoje wants an increase to £1m per season.

[SaintK]

Fucking good player on the pitch...

Fixed for accuracy

[sockwithaticket]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

I know a lot of players publicly moaned about taking pay cuts during covid, but that needed to happen anyway and probably needs to go further still to increase the sustainability of more clubs. We've now had a few seasons without relegation and that time was absolutely right to start addressing salaries. I think internationals are really overpaid given how little some of them actually play for their clubs these days and it's their wages that drive the market's upper limit.

Let's say you need a squad of 45 to get through the season, an equal share of the salary cap for all those players would be £142,222. Shift some of that around depending on seniority, perceived value etc, but there shouldn't really be many players exceeding £250k

Clubs also didn't help themselves with the CVC deal, losing 27% of revenue each season for a short term cash injection was a bad idea.

[sockwithaticket]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

Ruck claiming that Itoje wants an increase to £1m per season.

Not sure how seriously we should take Ruck as a source, but if I were his DoR and received that request the response would be 'Au revoir et bonne chance'

[yermum]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

I know a lot of players publicly moaned about taking pay cuts during covid, but that needed to happen anyway and probably needs to go further still to increase the sustainability of more clubs. We've now had a few seasons without relegation and that time was absolutely right to start addressing salaries. I think internationals are really overpaid given how little some of them actually play for their clubs these days and it's their wages that drive the market's upper limit.

Let's say you need a squad of 45 to get through the season, an equal share of the salary cap for all those players would be £142,222. Shift some of that around depending on seniority, perceived value etc, but there shouldn't really be many players exceeding £250k

Clubs also didn't help themselves with the CVC deal, losing 27% of revenue each season for a short term cash injection was a bad idea.

Fuck being a rugby player for that money.

the risk of long term injury CTE etc.

its the paradox of professionalism. Its one thing in the NFL where the average salary is nearly $3 million a year. Another when you are risking your long term health for a career which if you are lucky might net you a decent salary but not one to base the rest of your life on after you retire.

[Torquemada 1420]

Anyone any idea what happens to Wuss and Wasps' European fixtures?

[Margin__Walker]

In other news, another assistant jumping ship



There will be McDonald's resteraunts with less in the way of staff turnover than EJ's England setup.

[sockwithaticket]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

I know a lot of players publicly moaned about taking pay cuts during covid, but that needed to happen anyway and probably needs to go further still to increase the sustainability of more clubs. We've now had a few seasons without relegation and that time was absolutely right to start addressing salaries. I think internationals are really overpaid given how little some of them actually play for their clubs these days and it's their wages that drive the market's upper limit.

Let's say you need a squad of 45 to get through the season, an equal share of the salary cap for all those players would be £142,222. Shift some of that around depending on seniority, perceived value etc, but there shouldn't really be many players exceeding £250k

Clubs also didn't help themselves with the CVC deal, losing 27% of revenue each season for a short term cash injection was a bad idea.

Fuck being a rugby player for that money.

the risk of long term injury CTE etc.

its the paradox of professionalism. Its one thing in the NFL where the average salary is nearly $3 million a year. Another when you are risking your long term health for a career which if you are lucky might net you a decent salary but not one to base the rest of your life on after you retire.

There are academy lads doing it for 20 - 30k. Many of whom wash out with bad injuries before they get anywhere near a somewhat decent wage for what they put their bodies through.

[Margin__Walker]

Yep, most lads in their 20s will happily take chances for £100k+. It's very good money at that age.

The issue is that to get there you have to spent some time earning sod all, which is when it really looks a bad trade. You do see a steady stream of academy players retiring through injury (rather than just not making the cut). There were two at LI just last season. At least one was concussion. You'd like to think those decisions are being made proactively when issues are encountered now and that they may have just plodded on a decade ago.

[Kawazaki]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

Ruck claiming that Itoje wants an increase to £1m per season.

Ruck?

Players are not stupid. If there is a £5m salary cap then using 20% of it to employ one player who is not even available for 40% of the club season is not feasible.

[Kawazaki]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

I know a lot of players publicly moaned about taking pay cuts during covid, but that needed to happen anyway and probably needs to go further still to increase the sustainability of more clubs. We've now had a few seasons without relegation and that time was absolutely right to start addressing salaries. I think internationals are really overpaid given how little some of them actually play for their clubs these days and it's their wages that drive the market's upper limit.

Let's say you need a squad of 45 to get through the season, an equal share of the salary cap for all those players would be £142,222. Shift some of that around depending on seniority, perceived value etc, but there shouldn't really be many players exceeding £250k

Clubs also didn't help themselves with the CVC deal, losing 27% of revenue each season for a short term cash injection was a bad idea.

Fuck being a rugby player for that money.

the risk of long term injury CTE etc.

its the paradox of professionalism. Its one thing in the NFL where the average salary is nearly $3 million a year. Another when you are risking your long term health for a career which if you are lucky might net you a decent salary but not one to base the rest of your life on after you retire.

The risk for the junior lads is the same as it is for the people they play against who do full-time jobs.

And it's worth repeating, getting brain damage/CTE isn't a default condition if you play professional rugby though the way it's being played out in the media you'd think it was.

[Paddington Bear]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

I know a lot of players publicly moaned about taking pay cuts during covid, but that needed to happen anyway and probably needs to go further still to increase the sustainability of more clubs. We've now had a few seasons without relegation and that time was absolutely right to start addressing salaries. I think internationals are really overpaid given how little some of them actually play for their clubs these days and it's their wages that drive the market's upper limit.

Let's say you need a squad of 45 to get through the season, an equal share of the salary cap for all those players would be £142,222. Shift some of that around depending on seniority, perceived value etc, but there shouldn't really be many players exceeding £250k

Clubs also didn't help themselves with the CVC deal, losing 27% of revenue each season for a short term cash injection was a bad idea.

Pretty much. We have a viable product - it just can't compete with football and shouldn't try.
I wonder whether central contracts to a greater or lesser degree would be good for the England squad, as opposed to the appearance fees.

[inactionman]

Convinced the issue is runaway salaries at it’s heart. There’s a good tv deal, crowds are up significantly on 10/15 years ago and paying higher prices. Too much cash being taken out the game, and as was mentioned earlier, the threat posed by French poaching is smaller than claimed

I know a lot of players publicly moaned about taking pay cuts during covid, but that needed to happen anyway and probably needs to go further still to increase the sustainability of more clubs. We've now had a few seasons without relegation and that time was absolutely right to start addressing salaries. I think internationals are really overpaid given how little some of them actually play for their clubs these days and it's their wages that drive the market's upper limit.

Let's say you need a squad of 45 to get through the season, an equal share of the salary cap for all those players would be £142,222. Shift some of that around depending on seniority, perceived value etc, but there shouldn't really be many players exceeding £250k

Clubs also didn't help themselves with the CVC deal, losing 27% of revenue each season for a short term cash injection was a bad idea.

Pretty much. We have a viable product - it just can't compete with football and shouldn't try.
I wonder whether central contracts to a greater or lesser degree would be good for the England squad, as opposed to the appearance fees.

It's a good question. I've also wondered this, but would think there's not a static enough player group to do this. In cricket, there are development contracts for up-and-coming but the actual first team squad doesn't change very much.

With injuries, form etc Rugby is a bit different, and to top it all off Eddie certainly doesn't work that way.

[SaintK]

Looks like Eddiot will be looking for another defence coach less than 12 months out from RWC 2023
Rumour has it that Seibold is back off to Australia to take over the reins at Manly Sea Eagles in Sydney

[Paddington Bear]

I know a lot of players publicly moaned about taking pay cuts during covid, but that needed to happen anyway and probably needs to go further still to increase the sustainability of more clubs. We've now had a few seasons without relegation and that time was absolutely right to start addressing salaries. I think internationals are really overpaid given how little some of them actually play for their clubs these days and it's their wages that drive the market's upper limit.

Let's say you need a squad of 45 to get through the season, an equal share of the salary cap for all those players would be £142,222. Shift some of that around depending on seniority, perceived value etc, but there shouldn't really be many players exceeding £250k

Clubs also didn't help themselves with the CVC deal, losing 27% of revenue each season for a short term cash injection was a bad idea.

Pretty much. We have a viable product - it just can't compete with football and shouldn't try.
I wonder whether central contracts to a greater or lesser degree would be good for the England squad, as opposed to the appearance fees.

It's a good question. I've also wondered this, but would think there's not a static enough player group to do this. In cricket, there are development contracts for up-and-coming but the actual first team squad doesn't change very much.

With injuries, form etc Rugby is a bit different, and to top it all off Eddie certainly doesn't work that way.

Cricket is far from perfect but compared to rugby it has:
1) cut it’s cloth pretty effectively in the pro game and been realistic about popularity etc
2) been proactive in addressing declining numbers at grassroots (some successes, some failures but all in much better shape than rugby)
3) engaged more effectively minorities (with some big caveats)

Certainly you can’t cut and paste the central contract regime but I’m convinced there is a model that pays England stars something worthwhile whilst being sustainable for clubs, Eddie not the coach to do it as you say but others may have no choice but to work within those constraints.
Rugby only tickling the national consciousness during the 6N and RWC isn’t going to change and we need to be realistic about that. My hope is this is the catalyst for the Welsh sides joining us which is long overdue IMHO.