Stop voting for fucking Tories

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Muttonbird
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Uncle fester wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:47 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:38 pm
Lobby wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:34 pm

I agree that the current lot of charlattans and crooks are far worse than anything New Labour gave us, but Paddington’s point was that there has been a steady deterioration in political behaviour and commitment to the Country’s good. I think this was definitely a step on that journey.
I accept what Paddington's saying but to me the obvious turning point is the emergence of Farage, UKIP, and the Brexit referendum with associated dark money backers and the ERG.
A lot of the current malaise with Western democracy can be traced back to the lies that kicked off the Iraq war. That was the starting point for widespread breakdown in trust with governments.
Of course, all this is Labour's fault.:bimbo:
I like neeps
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Guy Smiley wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:32 pm
I like neeps wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:02 pm
Paddington Bear wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 4:25 pm

The Crown has a duty to ensure that any new government can command the confidence of the HoC. I'm putting it there that there is no Tory leader who can, so dissolving Parliament is the next logical step
In the 1700s maybe. The monarchy is not a serious political actor. We don't live in a dictatorship and we want to stay that way (I presume) so King Charles should sit out of it.
Your blind hatred of the Royal Family is hilarious.
My hatred of unelected dictators even moreso. Fortunately Charles and the hangers on advising him wouldn't dare suggest even contemplating something so radical that would piss off the actual people in charge and allow him to busy himself cutting ribbons and waving at people.
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Torquemada 1420
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_Os_ wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:27 pm
Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:56 pm
JM2K6 wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 1:39 pm She didn't waste any time

Go for it. She can only toilet the Tories' chances further :thumbup:
It's an odd one, she's their best, but I agree with you. She seems the best from the candidates over the summer (they were all rubbish though), she had the most political ability from what can be observed (PR skills, debating/speaking), and is their best chance of uniting the party. As per my post this morning, I'm not sure it's possible to unite the Tory party now though because it's a Frankenstein that's too broad, which will mean she would fail if she tried that. There's no middle ground between diamond hard Brexit and soft Brexit, or between no renewable energy whilst gifting oil multinationals tax breaks and wanting a large amount of renewables. Which means the purge option has more chance of working, which means Sunak and a very large amount of Tory MPs having the whip withdrawn etc.

If you want them destroyed, then the first hope must be the fascists (Braverman), someone more stupid than Truss and more of a zealot than Truss. The next step in the reverse Darwin process. The next hope after that must be the populists (Johnson). And the next hope after that unity candidates (Mordaunt).

I'm guessing no one on here actually wants a fascist. Quite a few on here wanted Truss because they knew she would be bad, so logically quite a few of you are secretly hoping for Johnson? Or are you getting off the train and going for Sunak and the purge?
As you highlight, the whole thing is so frighteningly bad that even those seeking to see them annihilated cannot confidently pick which candidate would result in that most efficaciously!
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The sun god
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tabascoboy wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:34 pm "Unwritten Constitution" appears to mean make it up as you go along
That's exactly what it means.
Lobby
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It appears that some of the Tories core support has woken up.



14% is the lowest polling ever recorded for the Tories.
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Paddington Bear
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_Os_ wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:37 pm
Mahoney wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:58 pm If Johnson is asked to form a government again his legitimacy will depend on whether or not a majority of MPs vote with his government in confidence motions.

It's all up to the MPs. Always is. Would only take 35 Tory MPs to vote against him in a confidence motion to bring him down.
In this scenario his legitimacy will extend from being Tory leader which will come from Tory members (this is recent, Hague put it in place when the Tories were in opposition it very much is "make it up as it goes along"). The privileges committee will investigate him for misleading parliament, anyone can all see what happened it would be strange if it was decided there were no breaches. In a different system this would be a sealed legal process, instead if there is any punishment it goes to a parliamentary vote. Johnson's main armament in that vote will be that he's Tory leader a position given to him by a force outside parliament, his secondary weapon will be that his previous removal (for reasons highly connected to the privileges committee investigation) has already visited chaos on the Tory party which they may not want to repeat. Another way of looking at this is that the people in the form of MPs decided there were grounds for him having misled parliament, and the Tories could potentially create a political situation where they cannot punish him.

Yes there's confidence votes. But again in this scenario, Johnson will be Tory leader as selected by the Tory membership, so for Tory MPs the calculation will be if they can defeat Johnson in a no confidence vote, then defeat Johnson in a leadership contest, then fight a general election and win their seats back. Unless they act in the national interest and hit the self destruct button knowing they cannot win.

With parties/whipping/members selecting leaders, it seems obvious confidence votes don't mean everything. Johnson won a confidence vote among Tory MPs in June (but with a large minority against, convention dictated he must step down and basically not do what he's doing now, but of course Johnson refused). Johnson then won a Commons no confidence vote in his government in July. This was all whilst palpably not having a functioning government, he could potentially win confidence votes whilst not actually enjoying the confidence of most MPs.
This is pretty wrong - Truss’ legitimacy came from the Tory members and she lasted 44 days in office because in our constitution the Tory members are irrelevant and MPs are not.
I don’t see how a written constitution changes any of this - people voting for governments you don’t like isn’t a constitutional crisis.

As it happens as I’ve said before I don’t believe anyone currently commands the confidence of the House, which fortunately our constitution provides an adequate remedy for.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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sturginho
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Lobby wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:54 am It appears that some of the Tories core support has woken up.



14% is the lowest polling ever recorded for the Tories.
They'd lose every single one of their seats in this scenario according to electoral calculus
C T
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sturginho wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:11 am
Lobby wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:54 am It appears that some of the Tories core support has woken up.



14% is the lowest polling ever recorded for the Tories.
They'd lose every single one of their seats in this scenario according to electoral calculus
It's really does show how desperate a position the Tories are in, and desperate people do desperate things. It's going to be bloody Boris again isn't it?

If that happens I suspect they might well lost their majority through resignations/walks to the other side. That's got to be general election time surely?

Amazing how short the memories of some people are, some seem to be buying the "Hounded out by the Press" line.
Biffer
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Lobby wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:54 am It appears that some of the Tories core support has woken up.



14% is the lowest polling ever recorded for the Tories.
When you dig into the numbers, 23% of that poll are either ‘don’t know’ or ‘prefer not to say’. At least half of that will be Tory, probably more. We’re back to the shy Tories in the polls.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Line6 HXFX
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Tories are not going anywhere.
They even can say they have a mandate to govern if Johnson is put back in place.

Must warn you, if you don't remember ..the last two years of John Majors government (when everyone just wanted them to go) were the longest two years in human history.

This is going to feel much longer.

One genuinely hopes Scotland will get independence by the end of this.
At least we will be able to celebrate one nation escaping Englands right wing clutches.
_Os_
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Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:58 am
_Os_ wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:37 pm
Mahoney wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:58 pm If Johnson is asked to form a government again his legitimacy will depend on whether or not a majority of MPs vote with his government in confidence motions.

It's all up to the MPs. Always is. Would only take 35 Tory MPs to vote against him in a confidence motion to bring him down.
In this scenario his legitimacy will extend from being Tory leader which will come from Tory members (this is recent, Hague put it in place when the Tories were in opposition it very much is "make it up as it goes along"). The privileges committee will investigate him for misleading parliament, anyone can all see what happened it would be strange if it was decided there were no breaches. In a different system this would be a sealed legal process, instead if there is any punishment it goes to a parliamentary vote. Johnson's main armament in that vote will be that he's Tory leader a position given to him by a force outside parliament, his secondary weapon will be that his previous removal (for reasons highly connected to the privileges committee investigation) has already visited chaos on the Tory party which they may not want to repeat. Another way of looking at this is that the people in the form of MPs decided there were grounds for him having misled parliament, and the Tories could potentially create a political situation where they cannot punish him.

Yes there's confidence votes. But again in this scenario, Johnson will be Tory leader as selected by the Tory membership, so for Tory MPs the calculation will be if they can defeat Johnson in a no confidence vote, then defeat Johnson in a leadership contest, then fight a general election and win their seats back. Unless they act in the national interest and hit the self destruct button knowing they cannot win.

With parties/whipping/members selecting leaders, it seems obvious confidence votes don't mean everything. Johnson won a confidence vote among Tory MPs in June (but with a large minority against, convention dictated he must step down and basically not do what he's doing now, but of course Johnson refused). Johnson then won a Commons no confidence vote in his government in July. This was all whilst palpably not having a functioning government, he could potentially win confidence votes whilst not actually enjoying the confidence of most MPs.
This is pretty wrong - Truss’ legitimacy came from the Tory members and she lasted 44 days in office because in our constitution the Tory members are irrelevant and MPs are not.
I don’t see how a written constitution changes any of this - people voting for governments you don’t like isn’t a constitutional crisis.

As it happens as I’ve said before I don’t believe anyone currently commands the confidence of the House, which fortunately our constitution provides an adequate remedy for.
This statement "because in our constitution the Tory members are irrelevant and MPs are not", isn't actually true at all, the Tories are usually in power and how things actually work now is the Tory members select the Tory leader, so the Tory members aren't irrelevant instead they're a critical component.

You also can't say Truss going proves the constitution is working (she obviously doesn't have the confidence of the Commons, same as Johnson didn't), then say the constitutional solution is an election and because that option hasn't been used twice now, it shows everything is working fine.

The issue isn't "people voting for governments you don’t like", it's that Johnson has misled parliament and could become PM again.

As for unwritten v written, it always seemed to me the main advantage of a written constitution is ordinary people have a grasp of what's going on and it's far less opaque. This thing about unwritten constitution supporters arguing as if it were written and never observing how it's actually functioning, and then never saying there's any crisis whilst pointing at how it should work in their own mind, always seemed an odd defence to me. Yes of course Johnson and then Truss didn't really have the confidence of a majority of MPs, yes of course there should be a general election, but ...
dpedin
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Line6 HXFX wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:55 am Tories are not going anywhere.
They even can say they have a mandate to govern if Johnson is put back in place.

Must warn you, if you don't remember ..the last two years of John Majors government (when everyone just wanted them to go) were the longest two years in human history.

This is going to feel much longer.

One genuinely hopes Scotland will get independence by the end of this.
At least we will be able to celebrate one nation escaping Englands right wing clutches.
They don't have a mandate just because the Blonde Bumblecunt is back, they already have a mandate from the 2019 election! We have a parliamentary democracy - the fat slug only has a mandate from his own constituency. I wish folk would stop peddling this pish. I agree about the Major years.

A large number of existing Tory MPs will not have him as PM and many will cross the house or resign in order to force a general election. They know that their party has been taken over by the far right, dark funded, dodgy 'Think Tanks' and ex UKIP party members and the sizeable, c 100 One Nation Tory MPs, will do whatever is required to keep the Blonde Bumblecunt out of PM post which will just continue the hijacking of their party. They recognise this current vote is an existential issue for their party as they know/knew it. They want to return to the more traditional Tory party and rid themselves of these right wing lunatics but know this will be impossible with the Fat Slug in post. Regardless of who wins they will implode at some point over the next 6-12 months and we will get the GE we all want.

I have said many times before that I am not sure Scotland has become more 'independence focused', rather that the 12 years of increasingly right wing Tory parties indulging in more and more facist/racist/jingoistic Little Englander policies and a powerless Labour Party has driven Scotland away from the UK. Whatever folk think of her Wee Nic as a person she is a solid FM, provides good leadership and has soften the blow of shite policies ie bedroom tax, from Westminster but given limited powers can only do so much. Given the option of staying in UK with a Tory party in charge and Brexit dominating the agenda then Independence looks like the only option for us to grow and develop the country we want to be and become part of the EU again. It might not be my first choice but it might be the only one left to me and I am positive that if it happened then Scotland would make a very good fist of becoming a successful independent country given our natural resources of oil and gas, fresh clean water, surplus of renewable energy, agriculture, etc. It wouldn't be easy but many of other countries of our size and without our natural resources are successful and it would be worth it to get away from the shite going down in Westminster.
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Paddington Bear
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_Os_ wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:05 am
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:58 am
_Os_ wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:37 pm
In this scenario his legitimacy will extend from being Tory leader which will come from Tory members (this is recent, Hague put it in place when the Tories were in opposition it very much is "make it up as it goes along"). The privileges committee will investigate him for misleading parliament, anyone can all see what happened it would be strange if it was decided there were no breaches. In a different system this would be a sealed legal process, instead if there is any punishment it goes to a parliamentary vote. Johnson's main armament in that vote will be that he's Tory leader a position given to him by a force outside parliament, his secondary weapon will be that his previous removal (for reasons highly connected to the privileges committee investigation) has already visited chaos on the Tory party which they may not want to repeat. Another way of looking at this is that the people in the form of MPs decided there were grounds for him having misled parliament, and the Tories could potentially create a political situation where they cannot punish him.

Yes there's confidence votes. But again in this scenario, Johnson will be Tory leader as selected by the Tory membership, so for Tory MPs the calculation will be if they can defeat Johnson in a no confidence vote, then defeat Johnson in a leadership contest, then fight a general election and win their seats back. Unless they act in the national interest and hit the self destruct button knowing they cannot win.

With parties/whipping/members selecting leaders, it seems obvious confidence votes don't mean everything. Johnson won a confidence vote among Tory MPs in June (but with a large minority against, convention dictated he must step down and basically not do what he's doing now, but of course Johnson refused). Johnson then won a Commons no confidence vote in his government in July. This was all whilst palpably not having a functioning government, he could potentially win confidence votes whilst not actually enjoying the confidence of most MPs.
This is pretty wrong - Truss’ legitimacy came from the Tory members and she lasted 44 days in office because in our constitution the Tory members are irrelevant and MPs are not.
I don’t see how a written constitution changes any of this - people voting for governments you don’t like isn’t a constitutional crisis.

As it happens as I’ve said before I don’t believe anyone currently commands the confidence of the House, which fortunately our constitution provides an adequate remedy for.
This statement "because in our constitution the Tory members are irrelevant and MPs are not", isn't actually true at all, the Tories are usually in power and how things actually work now is the Tory members select the Tory leader, so the Tory members aren't irrelevant instead they're a critical component.

You also can't say Truss going proves the constitution is working (she obviously doesn't have the confidence of the Commons, same as Johnson didn't), then say the constitutional solution is an election and because that option hasn't been used twice now, it shows everything is working fine.

The issue isn't "people voting for governments you don’t like", it's that Johnson has misled parliament and could become PM again.

As for unwritten v written, it always seemed to me the main advantage of a written constitution is ordinary people have a grasp of what's going on and it's far less opaque. This thing about unwritten constitution supporters arguing as if it were written and never observing how it's actually functioning, and then never saying there's any crisis whilst pointing at how it should work in their own mind, always seemed an odd defence to me. Yes of course Johnson and then Truss didn't really have the confidence of a majority of MPs, yes of course there should be a general election, but ...
You're wrong on this, taking it point by point:
1) Tory members are constitutionally irrelevant, as shown by the PM they installed being booted out within 50 days (10 of which were a period of national mourning) by MPs. Their mandate meant nothing and no one cared about it.

2) The constitutional solution is 1) can anyone command the confidence of the house, if the answer is yes then all good carry on. If the answer is no then we move to 2) hold an election to find someone that can. Works fine as shown by the 2019 election, you don't have to like the outcome to see that it resolved the Parliamentary deadlock.

3) If he's misled Parliament then there are sanctions available within Parliament. Ultimately though this isn't a criminal offence, he isn't the first to have done so, and the real sanction comes from the electorate. If they vote him back in then they can't complain about the consequences of having such a man as PM, if they vote him out then it sets an Admiral Byng style reminder for the others.

4) What's a country where ordinary people genuinely understand how their constitution works in a crisis scenario? I'm aware there are other countries than Britain and the US but a written constitution is up for debate by politicians, judges and legal scholars and fails on its own merits as a result.
Our system is simple and understandable. Boris lost the confidence of the House, so resigned. He was replaced by Truss who never had that confidence, and was out within a month and a half. The process repeats until someone can get 50%+1 MPs to consistently back them. What's opaque about that?
Our crisis is political - both parties have foolishly allowed their members to appoint unsuitable leaders, have failed to adjust to shifting political sands and a changing economic and demographic environment. Once someone does so successfully Division Lobbies will become very dull places again.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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salanya
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I thought my internal rage levels had peaked with Truss and Kwarteng's temporary doubling down on their mad experiment to sink the national economy they were supposed to be in charge of.

But if I hear one more brainwashed little Englander ask for Boris to come back, I think those levels may well be surpassed. :mad:
If people think Covid and Brexit were his great successes, and his lying and scheming is all forgotten because he said sorry, there is genuinely no hope for the two braincells they have left. :bimbo:
Over the hills and far away........
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sturginho
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salanya wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:50 am I thought my internal rage levels had peaked with Truss and Kwarteng's temporary doubling down on their mad experiment to sink the national economy they were supposed to be in charge of.

But if I hear one more brainwashed little Englander ask for Boris to come back, I think those levels may well be surpassed. :mad:
If people think Covid and Brexit were his great successes, and his lying and scheming is all forgotten because he said sorry, there is genuinely no hope for the two braincells they have left. :bimbo:
I know, it's amazing how short people's memories are :bimbo:
Slick
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dpedin wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:22 am
Line6 HXFX wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:55 am Tories are not going anywhere.
They even can say they have a mandate to govern if Johnson is put back in place.

Must warn you, if you don't remember ..the last two years of John Majors government (when everyone just wanted them to go) were the longest two years in human history.

This is going to feel much longer.

One genuinely hopes Scotland will get independence by the end of this.
At least we will be able to celebrate one nation escaping Englands right wing clutches.
They don't have a mandate just because the Blonde Bumblecunt is back, they already have a mandate from the 2019 election! We have a parliamentary democracy - the fat slug only has a mandate from his own constituency. I wish folk would stop peddling this pish. I agree about the Major years.

A large number of existing Tory MPs will not have him as PM and many will cross the house or resign in order to force a general election. They know that their party has been taken over by the far right, dark funded, dodgy 'Think Tanks' and ex UKIP party members and the sizeable, c 100 One Nation Tory MPs, will do whatever is required to keep the Blonde Bumblecunt out of PM post which will just continue the hijacking of their party. They recognise this current vote is an existential issue for their party as they know/knew it. They want to return to the more traditional Tory party and rid themselves of these right wing lunatics but know this will be impossible with the Fat Slug in post. Regardless of who wins they will implode at some point over the next 6-12 months and we will get the GE we all want.

I have said many times before that I am not sure Scotland has become more 'independence focused', rather that the 12 years of increasingly right wing Tory parties indulging in more and more facist/racist/jingoistic Little Englander policies and a powerless Labour Party has driven Scotland away from the UK. Whatever folk think of her Wee Nic as a person she is a solid FM, provides good leadership and has soften the blow of shite policies ie bedroom tax, from Westminster but given limited powers can only do so much. Given the option of staying in UK with a Tory party in charge and Brexit dominating the agenda then Independence looks like the only option for us to grow and develop the country we want to be and become part of the EU again. It might not be my first choice but it might be the only one left to me and I am positive that if it happened then Scotland would make a very good fist of becoming a successful independent country given our natural resources of oil and gas, fresh clean water, surplus of renewable energy, agriculture, etc. It wouldn't be easy but many of other countries of our size and without our natural resources are successful and it would be worth it to get away from the shite going down in Westminster.
Sorry dpedin, that's largely bollocks. By a lot of measures Nicola and the SNP have been crap - education, NHS, economic growth. Also love how all our oil & gas becomes the bedrock of our independent economy when the SG have explicitly said they want to keep it in the ground.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
_Os_
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Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:25 am You're wrong on this, taking it point by point:
1) Tory members are constitutionally irrelevant, as shown by the PM they installed being booted out within 50 days (10 of which were a period of national mourning) by MPs. Their mandate meant nothing and no one cared about it.

2) The constitutional solution is 1) can anyone command the confidence of the house, if the answer is yes then all good carry on. If the answer is no then we move to 2) hold an election to find someone that can. Works fine as shown by the 2019 election, you don't have to like the outcome to see that it resolved the Parliamentary deadlock.

3) If he's misled Parliament then there are sanctions available within Parliament. Ultimately though this isn't a criminal offence, he isn't the first to have done so, and the real sanction comes from the electorate. If they vote him back in then they can't complain about the consequences of having such a man as PM, if they vote him out then it sets an Admiral Byng style reminder for the others.

4) What's a country where ordinary people genuinely understand how their constitution works in a crisis scenario? I'm aware there are other countries than Britain and the US but a written constitution is up for debate by politicians, judges and legal scholars and fails on its own merits as a result.
Our system is simple and understandable. Boris lost the confidence of the House, so resigned. He was replaced by Truss who never had that confidence, and was out within a month and a half. The process repeats until someone can get 50%+1 MPs to consistently back them. What's opaque about that?
1. De Jure defences of an unwritten constitution don't really work do they? Isn't the entire point the de facto and how it actually works? Yes I agree the Tory members should be irrelevant, they're clearly not because they put Truss into office and precipitated a crisis, and could now end up putting Johnson back in.

2. The actual solution is the PM resigns before they de jure lose the confidence of most MPs, then the Tories hold an internal election to select a new leader, because they don't want to lose an election. This is the second time now. 2019 happened because the Tories knew they stood a good chance of doing better against a discredited Corbyn.

3. There's a long post I did on this further back in the thread outlining the process. On past punishments it should meet the minimal threshold for constituents to call a by-election, if parliament vote to uphold the privileges committee recommendation/punishment. There'll be significant pressure on the Tories to prevent "the real sanction comes from the electorate".

4. I can compare two countries easily enough. In SA everyone bar his supporters eventually knew Zuma was corrupt and shouldn't be president, the situation was pretty much the reverse of what you say, extremely ordinary people could quote bits of the rules to the galaxy brains trying to tell them everything was fine, which eventually forced the ANC to remove him. The galaxy brains argue over the rules regardless as you say (what are we doing here?), the test is the ordinary people. I've lost track of absolute basics I've had to explain to ordinary people in the UK, the classic one is the belief the UK has US style free speech laws, how free speech operates in the UK is opaque to most people it seems.

"The process repeats until someone can get 50%+1 MPs to consistently back them.", but is relying on the rules (even if it produces chaos), a good justification of an unwritten constitution? How it actually functions and that it produces superior governance than rigidly sticking to rules was the justification for it being unwritten I thought?
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:25 am Our crisis is political - both parties have foolishly allowed their members to appoint unsuitable leaders, have failed to adjust to shifting political sands and a changing economic and demographic environment. Once someone does so successfully Division Lobbies will become very dull places again.
I'll reply to this one separately. As you say there's a "shifting political sands and a changing economic and demographic environment", Johnson has already got a majority from it using lies. But maybe someone more honest like Starmer gets a majority from it too, and also fails. At what point do you decide the electoral system is the issue? Or is it never adjusted and the fault is with the people?
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tabascoboy
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salanya wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:50 am I thought my internal rage levels had peaked with Truss and Kwarteng's temporary doubling down on their mad experiment to sink the national economy they were supposed to be in charge of.

But if I hear one more brainwashed little Englander ask for Boris to come back, I think those levels may well be surpassed. :mad:
If people think Covid and Brexit were his great successes, and his lying and scheming is all forgotten because he said sorry, there is genuinely no hope for the two braincells they have left. :bimbo:
If they choose and install him only for subsequent inquiries and held-back revelations to put him in such a bad light that they then have to "retire" him again, it would be kind of funny but at the same time ruinous for the reputation of the nation and I don't see how the Tory party could survive that. They certainly shouldn't be allowed to.


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dpedin
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Slick wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:56 am
dpedin wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:22 am
Line6 HXFX wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:55 am Tories are not going anywhere.
They even can say they have a mandate to govern if Johnson is put back in place.

Must warn you, if you don't remember ..the last two years of John Majors government (when everyone just wanted them to go) were the longest two years in human history.

This is going to feel much longer.

One genuinely hopes Scotland will get independence by the end of this.
At least we will be able to celebrate one nation escaping Englands right wing clutches.
They don't have a mandate just because the Blonde Bumblecunt is back, they already have a mandate from the 2019 election! We have a parliamentary democracy - the fat slug only has a mandate from his own constituency. I wish folk would stop peddling this pish. I agree about the Major years.

A large number of existing Tory MPs will not have him as PM and many will cross the house or resign in order to force a general election. They know that their party has been taken over by the far right, dark funded, dodgy 'Think Tanks' and ex UKIP party members and the sizeable, c 100 One Nation Tory MPs, will do whatever is required to keep the Blonde Bumblecunt out of PM post which will just continue the hijacking of their party. They recognise this current vote is an existential issue for their party as they know/knew it. They want to return to the more traditional Tory party and rid themselves of these right wing lunatics but know this will be impossible with the Fat Slug in post. Regardless of who wins they will implode at some point over the next 6-12 months and we will get the GE we all want.

I have said many times before that I am not sure Scotland has become more 'independence focused', rather that the 12 years of increasingly right wing Tory parties indulging in more and more facist/racist/jingoistic Little Englander policies and a powerless Labour Party has driven Scotland away from the UK. Whatever folk think of her Wee Nic as a person she is a solid FM, provides good leadership and has soften the blow of shite policies ie bedroom tax, from Westminster but given limited powers can only do so much. Given the option of staying in UK with a Tory party in charge and Brexit dominating the agenda then Independence looks like the only option for us to grow and develop the country we want to be and become part of the EU again. It might not be my first choice but it might be the only one left to me and I am positive that if it happened then Scotland would make a very good fist of becoming a successful independent country given our natural resources of oil and gas, fresh clean water, surplus of renewable energy, agriculture, etc. It wouldn't be easy but many of other countries of our size and without our natural resources are successful and it would be worth it to get away from the shite going down in Westminster.
Sorry dpedin, that's largely bollocks. By a lot of measures Nicola and the SNP have been crap - education, NHS, economic growth. Also love how all our oil & gas becomes the bedrock of our independent economy when the SG have explicitly said they want to keep it in the ground.
It seems the vast majority of folk in Scotland disagree with you and your bollocks assessment and have voted accordingly! Wee Nic enjoys far greater public support from her constituents than almost every other leader in the UK. I would argue that there is little disagreement in Scotland for the small extra tax that we pay and huge support for the way the Scottish gov prioritise spending ie free prescriptions, extra payments for the poor, social care support for elderly, free school meals, etc. As I said I know that she is marmite for many folk and there are areas that need improvement but she constantly gains huge support in Scotland and lots of support for her policies. By the way the NHS in Scotland constantly outperforms the NHS in England. Given they have to produce a balanced budget every year and cannot borrow money as the UK Gov does then I would argue the Scottish Gov do well within the constraints imposed.

Oil and gas is a necessity at the moment and I would agree with the SNP that we should aim to keep as much of it in the ground as possible and move away from fossil fuels which is why I also mentioned we have a large renewables sector, export a lot of what we produce and plan to produce a lot more of it.
Last edited by dpedin on Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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1. De Jure defences of an unwritten constitution don't really work do they? Isn't the entire point the de facto and how it actually works? Yes I agree the Tory members should be irrelevant, they're clearly not because they put Truss into office and precipitated a crisis, and could now end up putting Johnson back in.
De Jure and De Facto defences work here, by law the members are irrelevant to the workings of the constitution and by fact they are too, as we have seen.
2. The actual solution is the PM resigns before they de jure lose the confidence of most MPs, then the Tories hold an internal election to select a new leader, because they don't want to lose an election. This is the second time now. 2019 happened because the Tories knew they stood a good chance of doing better against a discredited Corbyn.
I don't get what your point is really - not wanting to lose an election is the core motivator of politicians, has been since the year dot and isn't a bad one in of itself!
3. There's a long post I did on this further back in the thread outlining the process. On past punishments it should meet the minimal threshold for constituents to call a by-election, if parliament vote to uphold the privileges committee recommendation/punishment. There'll be significant pressure on the Tories to prevent "the real sanction comes from the electorate".
The law provides for recall elections, again the true sanction remains the verdict of the electorate.
4. I can compare two countries easily enough. In SA everyone bar his supporters eventually knew Zuma was corrupt and shouldn't be president, the situation was pretty much the reverse of what you say, extremely ordinary people could quote bits of the rules to the galaxy brains trying to tell them everything was fine, which eventually forced the ANC to remove him. The galaxy brains argue over the rules regardless as you say (what are we doing here?), the test is the ordinary people. I've lost track of absolute basics I've had to explain to ordinary people in the UK, the classic one is the belief the UK has US style free speech laws, how free speech operates in the UK is opaque to most people it seems.

"The process repeats until someone can get 50%+1 MPs to consistently back them.", but is relying on the rules (even if it produces chaos), a good justification of an unwritten constitution? How it actually functions and that it produces superior governance than rigidly sticking to rules was the justification for it being unwritten I thought?
Don't think this is galaxy brain at all. What you're describing in SA is a President brought down by political pressure where a written constitution failed to do so. Constitutions are pieces of paper that rely on people playing by the rules, and in the end if they don't the only way of forcing them to do so is by the verdict of the people. Doesn't matter how, or if you codify it.
Your work in explaining how Britain works to British people is commendable, certainly Americabrain is pretty pervasive, but that's a cultural not a constitutional issue. Writing down something doesn't change that, see the examples of Canada and Australia. The curse of being anglophone.
Your last point I don't get at all I'm afraid. Messy situations are messy, nothing stops that. Written constitutions leave heads of Government decided in court based on Hanging Chads, not sure how that's more elegant than commanding a majority in the HoC.
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:25 am Our crisis is political - both parties have foolishly allowed their members to appoint unsuitable leaders, have failed to adjust to shifting political sands and a changing economic and demographic environment. Once someone does so successfully Division Lobbies will become very dull places again.
I'll reply to this one separately. As you say there's a "shifting political sands and a changing economic and demographic environment", Johnson has already got a majority from it using lies. But maybe someone more honest like Starmer gets a majority from it too, and also fails. At what point do you decide the electoral system is the issue? Or is it never adjusted and the fault is with the people?
[/quote]
FPTP is separate to a written constitution and Boris' win in 2019 was strongly linked to breaking the Parliamentary deadlock of that year. A constitution working even if you don't like the outcome.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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_Os_ wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:02 am
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:25 am Our crisis is political - both parties have foolishly allowed their members to appoint unsuitable leaders, have failed to adjust to shifting political sands and a changing economic and demographic environment. Once someone does so successfully Division Lobbies will become very dull places again.
I'll reply to this one separately. As you say there's a "shifting political sands and a changing economic and demographic environment", Johnson has already got a majority from it using lies. But maybe someone more honest like Starmer gets a majority from it too, and also fails. At what point do you decide the electoral system is the issue? Or is it never adjusted and the fault is with the people?
The problem is that the world is getting more and more unequal. The rich getting richer and then their money is hidden offshore, geopolitical breakdown due to malign authoritarian actors who have built formidable global economies (Russia but also the Arab States/China and India a bit), people becoming scared for their future because of said breakdown and getting poorer. The UK isn't alone here, the democratic west is going to be ungovernable in 20 years as there really are no solutions to the old order being gradually replaced and people being unhappy about it. It used to be democracy and capitalism were the dominant forces and you had politicians aware of this and driven by public service (which paid better comparatively to now and had more influence too) but now it's authoritarian states as they control the resources and the democratic political class have their noses firmly in the trough. Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn being voted in by members is just a reaction to that.

The world is going to get worse in the next few decades. Not better.
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How do seemingly reasonable people still fall for this charlatan?
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has ruled himself out of the Tory leadership race and says he would "lean towards" supporting Boris Johnson at the moment.

Meanwhile on the other side
Labour MP resigns over sexual misconduct

More now on Labour's Christian Matheson, who has resigned as an MP after a parliamentary watchdog recommended he be suspended for serious sexual misconduct.

Labour suspended him from the parliamentary party and asked him to step down as MP after two allegations of sexual misconduct were upheld against him.

A parliamentary watchdog had recommended he be suspended from the Commons for four weeks.

In a statement online, Matheson said his suspension from the Commons was "an excessive and unfair penalty".

He added he was "dismayed that I have been found guilty of several allegations that I know to be untrue".

A Labour spokesman said it was an "incredibly serious" case and the party had acted immediately after the findings.

A by-election will now be held in his City of Chester constituency.
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Ben Wallace backs Boris. The ERG will too. It's going to be Boris.
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Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:23 am
1. De Jure defences of an unwritten constitution don't really work do they? Isn't the entire point the de facto and how it actually works? Yes I agree the Tory members should be irrelevant, they're clearly not because they put Truss into office and precipitated a crisis, and could now end up putting Johnson back in.
De Jure and De Facto defences work here, by law the members are irrelevant to the workings of the constitution and by fact they are too, as we have seen.
This is getting silly. De jure and de facto the Tory members are irrelevant, and yet they made Truss PM through a protracted national process? Come on.
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:23 am I don't get what your point is really - not wanting to lose an election is the core motivator of politicians, has been since the year dot and isn't a bad one in of itself!
Past defences of the unwritten constitution were always pragmatic, basically the outcome was what mattered and the outcome was stable governance. That's not the argument being made now, it's starting to appear more like an argument for tradition or (gasp) constitution mongering. This goes for a lot of what you're arguing (sorry for not replying to all of this, it would just be restatement of this point), if we're arguing over rules and not the actual outcomes then it becomes harder for past defences of the unwritten constitution to make sense, if the claim there's no crisis relies on the rules working regardless of outcome. It patently isn't working as it should, hence all the records being broken.

The problem is, the system has delivered at least 4 months of no government, with as you agree no sign of let up and as you also say politics meaning there may be no election any time soon. You keep stating I don't like the outcome of the election, but what is the outcome?

I think it was Rhubarb somewhere in the thread (months back) that listed all the legislation passed, pointed out there was hardly any and that they weren't actually governing.
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:23 am Don't think this is galaxy brain at all. What you're describing in SA is a President brought down by political pressure where a written constitution failed to do so. Constitutions are pieces of paper that rely on people playing by the rules, and in the end if they don't the only way of forcing them to do so is by the verdict of the people. Doesn't matter how, or if you codify it.
The main firewall was the constitutional term limit, both Mbeki and Zuma tried to break it (Zuma using an ex-wife), both times ordinary people said "that's not how the rules work, we're not voting for that". This is an uncontroversial point, no one really disputes writing it down makes it more accessible, which isn't always good but does have this advantage.
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:25 am Your work in explaining how Britain works to British people is commendable, certainly Americabrain is pretty pervasive, but that's a cultural not a constitutional issue. Writing down something doesn't change that, see the examples of Canada and Australia. The curse of being anglophone.
Your last point I don't get at all I'm afraid. Messy situations are messy, nothing stops that. Written constitutions leave heads of Government decided in court based on Hanging Chads, not sure how that's more elegant than commanding a majority in the HoC.
The pragmatic defence of the unwritten constitution was that is was malleable and adapted to the people not the other way around. If the culture has changed significantly (eg people think they have free speech), then the UK constitution should start reflecting that. But that doesn't happen, instead existing rules are reinforced (on free speech, the latest laws on protests for example). On free speech it looks suspiciously like a constitution is being imposed on the people which they do not support (or even understand). It's not at that stage yet with parliament and electoral systems, but it's noticeable a lot of people are demanding an election.
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:25 am FPTP is separate to a written constitution and Boris' win in 2019 was strongly linked to breaking the Parliamentary deadlock of that year. A constitution working even if you don't like the outcome.
I put it separately but the electoral system isn't necessarily separate to a written constitution. The SA constitution specifies it must be proportional but nothing more.

I think we're back to your claim this government is the UK constitution working, as far as I can make out you're not alone and all the UK experts say similar. It looks a bit dysfunctional to me though.
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well this is embarrassing - views from around the world
Italy
Italians have reacted angrily to the emerging view in the UK that British politics has reached Italian levels of chaos, claiming that Westminster is in a league of its own thanks to Brexit.

Outrage greeted the cover of the latest issue of The Economist, which featured the headline “Welcome to Britaly” and a cartoon of Liz Truss dressed as Britannia clutching a pizza instead of a shield and twirling spaghetti on a fork.

The weekly magazine claimed that Britain’s political instability, low growth and recent subordination to the bond markets showed that the comparison to Italy was “inescapable”.

Italy may have had nearly 70 governments since the Second World War and suffers low productivity but Italian commentators rushed to claim that Britain’s recent turmoil can be blamed on peculiarly British foolhardiness, starting with Brexit.

Everything that has happened since “has no parallels with Italy or any other country”, argued the leading daily Corriere della Sera.


The UK-based Italian journalist Barbara Serra tweeted: “The arrogance that led to the leap in the dark that was Brexit and the utter chaos that followed was very, very British.”

Amid Italian protest on social media, the economics professor Antonio Andreoni added: “Own your own mess.”

• Who will replace Liz Truss and be the next prime minister? The key contenders

Corriere della Sera recalled that Italy is the seventh-largest exporter in the world, while the UK is in 14th place after losing out in European markets due to Brexit, and the euro is seen as a far more reliable currency than sterling.



Using spaghetti to portray a sluggish economy was “the oldest of stereotypes”, Inigo Lambertini, the Italian ambassador to the UK, wrote in a letter of complaint to The Economist yesterday.

Italians have long been sensitive to publications using spaghetti to reinforce negative views of their country and were angered in 1997 when Germany’s Der Spiegel used a photo of a gun in a plate of pasta for an article about Italian crime.

In 2001, when Silvio Berlusconi was set to take office for the second time, The Economist argued he was “not fit” to lead Italy, prompting the Fiat patriarch Gianni Agnelli to retort: “We are not a banana republic.”


The Agnelli family became the single largest shareholder in The Economist in 2015.


Giorgia Meloni’s teething problems in forming a new government in Italy were sidelined on Italian news sites yesterday by the far greater political shenanigans in the UK.

In an article published hours before Truss stepped down, Corriere della Sera’s London correspondent wrote that Jeremy Hunt “appears to be the de facto premier”.


Russia
President Putin’s spokesman said this morning that Moscow was not expecting any “political wisdom” from the UK or any of its western allies.

“We cannot expect any insights or political wisdom from anyone in the West now... especially from Great Britain, where the current head of the executive is not elected by the people,” Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman, said.

He was answering a question about reports that Boris Johnson, the former prime minister, was eyeing a return to Downing Street.

On Truss, Moscow said Britain had “never known such a disgrace as prime minister”. A foreign ministry spokeswoman wrote on Telegram: “The catastrophic ignorance and the Queen’s funeral immediately after her audience with Liz Truss will be remembered.”


The state news agency RIA Novosti said Truss had been forced out after “a squall of criticism as a result of her new plan to support the economy, and fears that to realise it the government would increase the national debt”.

Ilya Goncharov, a Russian journalist based in London, told the independent Russian-language website Meduza that Truss’s growth plan had “provoked the indignation of Britons because it was mostly advantageous to the rich” and lacked independent analysis on the potential economic effects.

The Kommersant newspaper predicted that Rishi Sunak would be the frontrunner in the week-only Tory leadership contest.

Dmitry Medvedev, the former Russian president, referred to the Daily Star’s video stream featuring a head of lettuce to see if it would last longer than Truss as prime minister. “Bye, bye Liz Truss, congrats to lettuce,” he tweeted.

Germany
The German press initially reacted to Truss’s resignation with the air of zoo visitors watching a hungry polar bear on the loose in the seal enclosure, torn between concern, horrified fascination and relief at being on the safe side of the barriers.

“The chaos in Britain has reached perfection,” proclaimed the Frankfurter Rundschau newspaper.

Asked about the challenges facing Britain, Annette Dittert, London correspondent for the ARD public broadcaster, managed only a weary laugh. “If we get going on that subject, we’ll still be here tomorrow morning,” she replied.


There was also a certain amount of frivolity. “The lettuce has won,” as one German social media personality put it. Bild, the country’s bestselling tabloid, hailed a “Brit-quake” after weeks of “Frus-Truss-ion” in Westminster.

Die Welt, the conservative newspaper, said Brexit was partly to blame for the crisis. “British politics has developed a self-destructive centrifugal force that should serve as a cautionary tale to all those still touting easy solutions to our current challenges. The truth is that the Tory party’s Brexit ideology is hollow. It consists of a handful of clever slogans that, to the misfortune of the British nation, have lingered on for too long. Liz Truss’s spectacular failure is the clearest example of this.”

Die Tageszeitung, the left-wing daily, wrote that the Conservatives were incapable of governing: “Whoever now wins the coming election to succeed Truss will face exactly the same problems: a dysfunctional party in which there is no consensus on the right policies and all the players hate each other. The only way forward now is to form an interim government, dissolve parliament and hold new elections. Competence in the election campaign — that will now be the yardstick.”


The news site of the magazine Der Spiegel said there was little chance of a political fresh start in the UK. “If the Tories really cared about the country they claim to serve, they would allow a general election. But their core strengths are clinging on to power and greed, so they have their claws into Downing Street. And that makes them blind to the damage they are doing to Britain and to themselves.”

Süddeutsche Zeitung, which sits on the centre left, wrote: “Liz Truss has done great damage to her country. She was elected leader of the Conservative Party in the summer on promises that were not only unrealistic but also dishonest … ”

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung wrote: “A few lessons should have stuck. Politics is more than slogans. The attempt to enforce the 40-year-old recipes of Margaret Thatcher with a crowbar in the midst of the crises of 2022 was ludicrous. Even leaving the European Union has not freed Britain from the dependencies of the world markets — on the contrary: the country has to battle the global economic upheavals on its own.”


Belgium
De Morgen wrote: “Truss leaves Brits in chaos. . . Is there anyone capable of leading divided Britons out of this pit?”

De Standaard found it “curious that politicians in a globalised world believe that a nation-state can meet all of its challenges”.

It added: “Finally, Britain learns that big bangs are not beneficial as a policy tool. Kwasi Kwarteng’s so-called mini-budget brought the financial and economic system to the brink of collapse. Even in the United Kingdom, therefore, sovereignty must be taken with a grain of salt.”

Netherlands
Trouw wrote: “Truss’s departure completes the chaos. . . Stability hardly seems to be expected from the Conservative Party for the time being.”

Volkskrant said: “Truss fiasco illustrates the lack of realism on the part of the right-wing Brexit wing of the Conservatives. In this crisis, the UK needs a capable and experienced centrist figure who can hold the country together. The European Union needs a stable partner. Although the British have left the EU, the struggle in Ukraine shows that they are indispensable to Europe from a military and geopolitical point of view. That is why the farce in Westminster must come to an end.”

France
President Macron expressed hope for a return to stability in the UK, although that appeared unlikely to commentators who concluded that Britain had gone “completely mad”.

Before an EU summit in Brussels, Macron said: “I hope that Great Britain can return to stability as quickly as possible and move forward. That is good for us, and it is good for our Europe.”

Marion van Renterghem, a respected television and press commentator, said the UK had gone “completely mad” and had become an “incredible mess”. She blamed the fiasco on Brexit, which she said had left the country “ungovernable”.

Alexandre Devecchio, a commentator for Le Figaro newspaper, compared the Conservative Party’s woes to those of the centre-right French Republicans, whose candidate, Valérie Pécressé, polled a pitiful 4.76 per cent of the vote in the spring presidential election.

He said both movements were in the throes of a “profound identity crisis and paying for their scorn of democracy.”

He added that Boris Johnson alone had “popular legitimacy”.

Spain
The left-leaning daily El País published analysis from its international editor, Lucía Abellán, who wrote: “The only positive lesson that can be gleaned from this crisis is that no leader should resort to fiscal fables for personal gain or to hold on to power.”


El País accused Truss of relying on “fiscal fables”
José M de Areilza, opinion writer for the conservative newspaper ABC, said that “the British prime minister has had no other choice but to resign after an unprecedented spectacle of bad governance”.

Many papers in Spain, including the leftist El Diario, focused on the lettuce stunt staged by the Daily Star. In a column titled “In the end the lettuce won”, the paper wrote that “Truss had quit after just six weeks in the role after losing her authority in her party, trapped by internal criticism”.

The right-leaning online daily El Español pointed to the picture of Truss meeting Queen Elizabeth, calling it the “cursed photo: Elizabeth II survived two days, and the prime minister, 45”. It added that her resignation was inevitable because “the accumulation of errors in the few weeks that her time in the role lasted all pointed to this ending”.

Europe
EU leaders expressed hope that relations might improve.

The Irish prime minister, Micheál Martin, agreed that a lot was at stake. “Stability is very important,” he said. “Given the fairly significant geopolitical issues facing Europe [like] the war in Ukraine and the energy crisis.”

Michel Barnier, who negotiated the terms of Brexit on behalf of the EU, said he took no pleasure in Britain’s discomfiture. “No one should or can be happy about the political and economic turmoil in the UK,” he tweeted. “We must find stability and co-operate, across Europe.”


United States
President Biden vowed to continue close co-operation with Britain. “The United States and the United Kingdom are strong allies and enduring friends — and that fact will never change,” he said in a statement.

“I thank Prime Minister Liz Truss for her partnership on a range of issues including holding Russia accountable for its war against Ukraine. We will continue our close co-operation with the UK government as we work together to meet the global challenges our nations face.”

• The long rise and rapid fall of our shortest-serving PM

During Truss’s brief tenure as prime minister she travelled to New York for the United Nations General Assembly, where she met Biden — days after he had criticised the low-tax “trickle-down economics” she was trying to enact.

Only last weekend he issued an incredibly rare rebuke of an ally’s domestic policies, saying he was not the only one who thought the government’s original mini-budget had been a “mistake”.

Biden told reporters at an ice cream shop: “I think that the idea of cutting taxes on the super wealthy at a time when — anyway, I just think — I disagreed with the policy, but that’s up to Great Britain to make that judgment, not me.”

China
The foreign ministry declined to comment on Truss but Hu Xijin, a former editor-in-chief of the state newspaper Global Times, called her resignation a joke.

“A prosperous era won’t have oddities such as this. The entire Britain is in a fragile position, and the elite of UK politics these days are a bunch of opportunists without the bottom line, who are only interested in registering eyeballs and winning the election,” Hu said. “It looks like this country will be in turmoil for a while, and any good idea won’t have a good way to be spread across the country.”

China’s state media, as expected, mostly devoted their coverage to the Communist Party congress. The People’s Daily, the flagship party newspaper, made no mention of Truss on its front page or international section.

Social media users joked that Truss had lost to a head of lettuce, expressed amazement at her extremely short term and sneered at the chaos in Downing Street.

China’s foreign ministry is unlikely to comment on Truss’s departure because it practises a non-interference policy, but state media are likely to use the quick turnover as proof of political instability and incompetence in the UK.

Beijing was wary of Truss’s hardline approach to China during her campaign and, upon her election, cautioned that any hyping of the “China threat” would be irresponsible and would not solve the UK’s own problems.
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_Os_ wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:46 am
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:23 am
1. De Jure defences of an unwritten constitution don't really work do they? Isn't the entire point the de facto and how it actually works? Yes I agree the Tory members should be irrelevant, they're clearly not because they put Truss into office and precipitated a crisis, and could now end up putting Johnson back in.
De Jure and De Facto defences work here, by law the members are irrelevant to the workings of the constitution and by fact they are too, as we have seen.
This is getting silly. De jure and de facto the Tory members are irrelevant, and yet they made Truss PM through a protracted national process? Come on.
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:23 am I don't get what your point is really - not wanting to lose an election is the core motivator of politicians, has been since the year dot and isn't a bad one in of itself!
Past defences of the unwritten constitution were always pragmatic, basically the outcome was what mattered and the outcome was stable governance. That's not the argument being made now, it's starting to appear more like an argument for tradition or (gasp) constitution mongering. This goes for a lot of what you're arguing (sorry for not replying to all of this, it would just be restatement of this point), if we're arguing over rules and not the actual outcomes then it becomes harder for past defences of the unwritten constitution to make sense, if the claim there's no crisis relies on the rules working regardless of outcome. It patently isn't working as it should, hence all the records being broken.

The problem is, the system has delivered at least 4 months of no government, with as you agree no sign of let up and as you also say politics meaning there may be no election any time soon. You keep stating I don't like the outcome of the election, but what is the outcome?

I think it was Rhubarb somewhere in the thread (months back) that listed all the legislation passed, pointed out there was hardly any and that they weren't actually governing.
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:23 am Don't think this is galaxy brain at all. What you're describing in SA is a President brought down by political pressure where a written constitution failed to do so. Constitutions are pieces of paper that rely on people playing by the rules, and in the end if they don't the only way of forcing them to do so is by the verdict of the people. Doesn't matter how, or if you codify it.
The main firewall was the constitutional term limit, both Mbeki and Zuma tried to break it (Zuma using an ex-wife), both times ordinary people said "that's not how the rules work, we're not voting for that". This is an uncontroversial point, no one really disputes writing it down makes it more accessible, which isn't always good but does have this advantage.
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:25 am Your work in explaining how Britain works to British people is commendable, certainly Americabrain is pretty pervasive, but that's a cultural not a constitutional issue. Writing down something doesn't change that, see the examples of Canada and Australia. The curse of being anglophone.
Your last point I don't get at all I'm afraid. Messy situations are messy, nothing stops that. Written constitutions leave heads of Government decided in court based on Hanging Chads, not sure how that's more elegant than commanding a majority in the HoC.
The pragmatic defence of the unwritten constitution was that is was malleable and adapted to the people not the other way around. If the culture has changed significantly (eg people think they have free speech), then the UK constitution should start reflecting that. But that doesn't happen, instead existing rules are reinforced (on free speech, the latest laws on protests for example). On free speech it looks suspiciously like a constitution is being imposed on the people which they do not support (or even understand). It's not at that stage yet with parliament and electoral systems, but it's noticeable a lot of people are demanding an election.
Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:25 am FPTP is separate to a written constitution and Boris' win in 2019 was strongly linked to breaking the Parliamentary deadlock of that year. A constitution working even if you don't like the outcome.
I put it separately but the electoral system isn't necessarily separate to a written constitution. The SA constitution specifies it must be proportional but nothing more.

I think we're back to your claim this government is the UK constitution working, as far as I can make out you're not alone and all the UK experts say similar. It looks a bit dysfunctional to me though.
We could go back and forth all day point by point I sense.

At the root of this is that you are conflating political crisis with constitutional crisis. The mess Britain is in is entirely one of politics.
We introduced an extra-constitutional step of a referendum, politicians have attempted to deal with the consequences, and by and large have failed to do so. Boris Johnson's government foundered not because the constitution was found to be inadequate but because he was incapable of putting in the graft required to legislate and govern, and was surrounded by mediocrities who wanted cabinet positions for the prestige and the boozy parties. Would that he was replaced by one of those mediocrities rather than a car crash. Truss has come unstuck on parliamentary arithmetic and the bond market.

None of this can be written constitution-ed away, the issue is political. Were there to be an election and Starmer wins the majority I suspect he would, the entire 'constitutional crisis' would disappear, almost as if it never existed.

I get the sense that you'd like to dissolve the people and elect another, and in the absence of that proving possible get judges and their coteries to effect something similar, but that's not how power and authority works in our constitution. The verdict and sanctions lie first with Parliament and ultimately with the electorate, and I don't see by what right a constitution could or should supersede that.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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tabascoboy
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I like neeps wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:46 am Ben Wallace backs Boris. The ERG will too. It's going to be Boris.
Johnson is going to be the "Stop Sunak" choice

robmatic
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Slick wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:49 am well this is embarrassing - views from around the world
My father-in-law is a retired Ambassador of another country and he thinks this is all hilarious.
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The sun god
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SKY News doing a 'vox pop' in West London....... there is a surprising number of people who would like to see the return of the blond idiot.!!! It's fucking amazing/horrifying when you think of it.
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tabascoboy
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From one Tory to another

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Slick wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:49 am well this is embarrassing - views from around the world
Italy
Italians have reacted angrily to the emerging view in the UK that British politics has reached Italian levels of chaos, claiming that Westminster is in a league of its own thanks to Brexit.

Outrage greeted the cover of the latest issue of The Economist, which featured the headline “Welcome to Britaly” and a cartoon of Liz Truss dressed as Britannia clutching a pizza instead of a shield and twirling spaghetti on a fork.

The weekly magazine claimed that Britain’s political instability, low growth and recent subordination to the bond markets showed that the comparison to Italy was “inescapable”.

Italy may have had nearly 70 governments since the Second World War and suffers low productivity but Italian commentators rushed to claim that Britain’s recent turmoil can be blamed on peculiarly British foolhardiness, starting with Brexit.

Everything that has happened since “has no parallels with Italy or any other country”, argued the leading daily Corriere della Sera.


The UK-based Italian journalist Barbara Serra tweeted: “The arrogance that led to the leap in the dark that was Brexit and the utter chaos that followed was very, very British.”

Amid Italian protest on social media, the economics professor Antonio Andreoni added: “Own your own mess.”

• Who will replace Liz Truss and be the next prime minister? The key contenders

Corriere della Sera recalled that Italy is the seventh-largest exporter in the world, while the UK is in 14th place after losing out in European markets due to Brexit, and the euro is seen as a far more reliable currency than sterling.



Using spaghetti to portray a sluggish economy was “the oldest of stereotypes”, Inigo Lambertini, the Italian ambassador to the UK, wrote in a letter of complaint to The Economist yesterday.

Italians have long been sensitive to publications using spaghetti to reinforce negative views of their country and were angered in 1997 when Germany’s Der Spiegel used a photo of a gun in a plate of pasta for an article about Italian crime.

In 2001, when Silvio Berlusconi was set to take office for the second time, The Economist argued he was “not fit” to lead Italy, prompting the Fiat patriarch Gianni Agnelli to retort: “We are not a banana republic.”


The Agnelli family became the single largest shareholder in The Economist in 2015.


Giorgia Meloni’s teething problems in forming a new government in Italy were sidelined on Italian news sites yesterday by the far greater political shenanigans in the UK.

In an article published hours before Truss stepped down, Corriere della Sera’s London correspondent wrote that Jeremy Hunt “appears to be the de facto premier”.


Russia
President Putin’s spokesman said this morning that Moscow was not expecting any “political wisdom” from the UK or any of its western allies.

“We cannot expect any insights or political wisdom from anyone in the West now... especially from Great Britain, where the current head of the executive is not elected by the people,” Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman, said.

He was answering a question about reports that Boris Johnson, the former prime minister, was eyeing a return to Downing Street.

On Truss, Moscow said Britain had “never known such a disgrace as prime minister”. A foreign ministry spokeswoman wrote on Telegram: “The catastrophic ignorance and the Queen’s funeral immediately after her audience with Liz Truss will be remembered.”


The state news agency RIA Novosti said Truss had been forced out after “a squall of criticism as a result of her new plan to support the economy, and fears that to realise it the government would increase the national debt”.

Ilya Goncharov, a Russian journalist based in London, told the independent Russian-language website Meduza that Truss’s growth plan had “provoked the indignation of Britons because it was mostly advantageous to the rich” and lacked independent analysis on the potential economic effects.

The Kommersant newspaper predicted that Rishi Sunak would be the frontrunner in the week-only Tory leadership contest.

Dmitry Medvedev, the former Russian president, referred to the Daily Star’s video stream featuring a head of lettuce to see if it would last longer than Truss as prime minister. “Bye, bye Liz Truss, congrats to lettuce,” he tweeted.

Germany
The German press initially reacted to Truss’s resignation with the air of zoo visitors watching a hungry polar bear on the loose in the seal enclosure, torn between concern, horrified fascination and relief at being on the safe side of the barriers.

“The chaos in Britain has reached perfection,” proclaimed the Frankfurter Rundschau newspaper.

Asked about the challenges facing Britain, Annette Dittert, London correspondent for the ARD public broadcaster, managed only a weary laugh. “If we get going on that subject, we’ll still be here tomorrow morning,” she replied.


There was also a certain amount of frivolity. “The lettuce has won,” as one German social media personality put it. Bild, the country’s bestselling tabloid, hailed a “Brit-quake” after weeks of “Frus-Truss-ion” in Westminster.

Die Welt, the conservative newspaper, said Brexit was partly to blame for the crisis. “British politics has developed a self-destructive centrifugal force that should serve as a cautionary tale to all those still touting easy solutions to our current challenges. The truth is that the Tory party’s Brexit ideology is hollow. It consists of a handful of clever slogans that, to the misfortune of the British nation, have lingered on for too long. Liz Truss’s spectacular failure is the clearest example of this.”

Die Tageszeitung, the left-wing daily, wrote that the Conservatives were incapable of governing: “Whoever now wins the coming election to succeed Truss will face exactly the same problems: a dysfunctional party in which there is no consensus on the right policies and all the players hate each other. The only way forward now is to form an interim government, dissolve parliament and hold new elections. Competence in the election campaign — that will now be the yardstick.”


The news site of the magazine Der Spiegel said there was little chance of a political fresh start in the UK. “If the Tories really cared about the country they claim to serve, they would allow a general election. But their core strengths are clinging on to power and greed, so they have their claws into Downing Street. And that makes them blind to the damage they are doing to Britain and to themselves.”

Süddeutsche Zeitung, which sits on the centre left, wrote: “Liz Truss has done great damage to her country. She was elected leader of the Conservative Party in the summer on promises that were not only unrealistic but also dishonest … ”

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung wrote: “A few lessons should have stuck. Politics is more than slogans. The attempt to enforce the 40-year-old recipes of Margaret Thatcher with a crowbar in the midst of the crises of 2022 was ludicrous. Even leaving the European Union has not freed Britain from the dependencies of the world markets — on the contrary: the country has to battle the global economic upheavals on its own.”


Belgium
De Morgen wrote: “Truss leaves Brits in chaos. . . Is there anyone capable of leading divided Britons out of this pit?”

De Standaard found it “curious that politicians in a globalised world believe that a nation-state can meet all of its challenges”.

It added: “Finally, Britain learns that big bangs are not beneficial as a policy tool. Kwasi Kwarteng’s so-called mini-budget brought the financial and economic system to the brink of collapse. Even in the United Kingdom, therefore, sovereignty must be taken with a grain of salt.”

Netherlands
Trouw wrote: “Truss’s departure completes the chaos. . . Stability hardly seems to be expected from the Conservative Party for the time being.”

Volkskrant said: “Truss fiasco illustrates the lack of realism on the part of the right-wing Brexit wing of the Conservatives. In this crisis, the UK needs a capable and experienced centrist figure who can hold the country together. The European Union needs a stable partner. Although the British have left the EU, the struggle in Ukraine shows that they are indispensable to Europe from a military and geopolitical point of view. That is why the farce in Westminster must come to an end.”

France
President Macron expressed hope for a return to stability in the UK, although that appeared unlikely to commentators who concluded that Britain had gone “completely mad”.

Before an EU summit in Brussels, Macron said: “I hope that Great Britain can return to stability as quickly as possible and move forward. That is good for us, and it is good for our Europe.”

Marion van Renterghem, a respected television and press commentator, said the UK had gone “completely mad” and had become an “incredible mess”. She blamed the fiasco on Brexit, which she said had left the country “ungovernable”.

Alexandre Devecchio, a commentator for Le Figaro newspaper, compared the Conservative Party’s woes to those of the centre-right French Republicans, whose candidate, Valérie Pécressé, polled a pitiful 4.76 per cent of the vote in the spring presidential election.

He said both movements were in the throes of a “profound identity crisis and paying for their scorn of democracy.”

He added that Boris Johnson alone had “popular legitimacy”.

Spain
The left-leaning daily El País published analysis from its international editor, Lucía Abellán, who wrote: “The only positive lesson that can be gleaned from this crisis is that no leader should resort to fiscal fables for personal gain or to hold on to power.”


El País accused Truss of relying on “fiscal fables”
José M de Areilza, opinion writer for the conservative newspaper ABC, said that “the British prime minister has had no other choice but to resign after an unprecedented spectacle of bad governance”.

Many papers in Spain, including the leftist El Diario, focused on the lettuce stunt staged by the Daily Star. In a column titled “In the end the lettuce won”, the paper wrote that “Truss had quit after just six weeks in the role after losing her authority in her party, trapped by internal criticism”.

The right-leaning online daily El Español pointed to the picture of Truss meeting Queen Elizabeth, calling it the “cursed photo: Elizabeth II survived two days, and the prime minister, 45”. It added that her resignation was inevitable because “the accumulation of errors in the few weeks that her time in the role lasted all pointed to this ending”.

Europe
EU leaders expressed hope that relations might improve.

The Irish prime minister, Micheál Martin, agreed that a lot was at stake. “Stability is very important,” he said. “Given the fairly significant geopolitical issues facing Europe [like] the war in Ukraine and the energy crisis.”

Michel Barnier, who negotiated the terms of Brexit on behalf of the EU, said he took no pleasure in Britain’s discomfiture. “No one should or can be happy about the political and economic turmoil in the UK,” he tweeted. “We must find stability and co-operate, across Europe.”


United States
President Biden vowed to continue close co-operation with Britain. “The United States and the United Kingdom are strong allies and enduring friends — and that fact will never change,” he said in a statement.

“I thank Prime Minister Liz Truss for her partnership on a range of issues including holding Russia accountable for its war against Ukraine. We will continue our close co-operation with the UK government as we work together to meet the global challenges our nations face.”

• The long rise and rapid fall of our shortest-serving PM

During Truss’s brief tenure as prime minister she travelled to New York for the United Nations General Assembly, where she met Biden — days after he had criticised the low-tax “trickle-down economics” she was trying to enact.

Only last weekend he issued an incredibly rare rebuke of an ally’s domestic policies, saying he was not the only one who thought the government’s original mini-budget had been a “mistake”.

Biden told reporters at an ice cream shop: “I think that the idea of cutting taxes on the super wealthy at a time when — anyway, I just think — I disagreed with the policy, but that’s up to Great Britain to make that judgment, not me.”

China
The foreign ministry declined to comment on Truss but Hu Xijin, a former editor-in-chief of the state newspaper Global Times, called her resignation a joke.

“A prosperous era won’t have oddities such as this. The entire Britain is in a fragile position, and the elite of UK politics these days are a bunch of opportunists without the bottom line, who are only interested in registering eyeballs and winning the election,” Hu said. “It looks like this country will be in turmoil for a while, and any good idea won’t have a good way to be spread across the country.”

China’s state media, as expected, mostly devoted their coverage to the Communist Party congress. The People’s Daily, the flagship party newspaper, made no mention of Truss on its front page or international section.

Social media users joked that Truss had lost to a head of lettuce, expressed amazement at her extremely short term and sneered at the chaos in Downing Street.

China’s foreign ministry is unlikely to comment on Truss’s departure because it practises a non-interference policy, but state media are likely to use the quick turnover as proof of political instability and incompetence in the UK.

Beijing was wary of Truss’s hardline approach to China during her campaign and, upon her election, cautioned that any hyping of the “China threat” would be irresponsible and would not solve the UK’s own problems.
If at the heart of this is Brexit does anyone think Keir has the balls to correct it?
C T
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tabascoboy wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:38 am How do seemingly reasonable people still fall for this charlatan?
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has ruled himself out of the Tory leadership race and says he would "lean towards" supporting Boris Johnson at the moment.
If he does get back in (i.e. if he gets over 100 MP's, because the membership will put him back in) then I really hope it shows how unserious the Tory party are right now. Through resignations and crossing the floor it could well be the end of the Tory party. That's what they deserve.

But I've been so wrong about this country so many times. They'll probably put him back in, call a GE and win a thumping majority.
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Slick
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C T wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:35 pm
tabascoboy wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:38 am How do seemingly reasonable people still fall for this charlatan?
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has ruled himself out of the Tory leadership race and says he would "lean towards" supporting Boris Johnson at the moment.
If he does get back in (i.e. if he gets over 100 MP's, because the membership will put him back in) then I really hope it shows how unserious the Tory party are right now. Through resignations and crossing the floor it could well be the end of the Tory party. That's what they deserve.

But I've been so wrong about this country so many times. They'll probably put him back in, call a GE and win a thumping majority.
You just hope enough people see that anyone backing Boris is just doing it as a last ditch effort to keep their jobs, nothing to do with the country. They won't.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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fishfoodie
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tabascoboy wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:48 pm From one Tory to another

Remember when this shit said the UK now had a, "Presidential Style", system; & if the Bumblecunt was toppled, there would have to be a GE ?

Does he still believe that ??, or was he lying then, & now he knows if there were a GE, he'd get less votes than the Monster Raving Loony Candidate.
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PCPhil
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Slick wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:02 pm
C T wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:35 pm
tabascoboy wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:38 am How do seemingly reasonable people still fall for this charlatan?


If he does get back in (i.e. if he gets over 100 MP's, because the membership will put him back in) then I really hope it shows how unserious the Tory party are right now. Through resignations and crossing the floor it could well be the end of the Tory party. That's what they deserve.

But I've been so wrong about this country so many times. They'll probably put him back in, call a GE and win a thumping majority.
You just hope enough people see that anyone backing Boris is just doing it as a last ditch effort to keep their jobs, nothing to do with the country. They won't.
If put to the membership he’ll be PM again. All the tories that said they couldn’t serve with him will shut up and talk about ‘good of the country not to call an election…..’ and more cowardly shit like that. The standards enquiry will be forced to find him in the clear and the tory press will have 2 years to say what a great man of the people leader he is whilst everything turns to shit.
“It was a pet, not an animal. It had a name, you don't eat things with names, this is horrific!”
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SaintK
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PCPhil wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:16 pm
Slick wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:02 pm
C T wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:35 pm

If he does get back in (i.e. if he gets over 100 MP's, because the membership will put him back in) then I really hope it shows how unserious the Tory party are right now. Through resignations and crossing the floor it could well be the end of the Tory party. That's what they deserve.

But I've been so wrong about this country so many times. They'll probably put him back in, call a GE and win a thumping majority.
You just hope enough people see that anyone backing Boris is just doing it as a last ditch effort to keep their jobs, nothing to do with the country. They won't.
If put to the membership he’ll be PM again. All the tories that said they couldn’t serve with him will shut up and talk about ‘good of the country not to call an election…..’ and more cowardly shit like that. The standards enquiry will be forced to find him in the clear and the tory press will have 2 years to say what a great man of the people leader he is whilst everything turns to shit.
Will need a lot more than that needed
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Hal Jordan
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Narrator: But they won't.
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sturginho
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Hal Jordan wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:39 pm Narrator: But they won't.
I read that in Morgan Freeman's voice
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Paddington Bear
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Hal Jordan wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:39 pm Narrator: But they won't.
Yep. Real 'hold me back' energy
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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