NPR

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 pm Whatever we think about the Tories and Rishi, this is still a historic moment.

A new leader, in an apparent democracy, being decided by less than 0.0002% of the population?

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 pm Whatever we think about the Tories and Rishi, this is still a historic moment.

Pick a lowlight

- Most changes of Leadership without involving the Plebs
- Smallest Candidate list, & shortest contest
- First Tax Exile PM
- First PM with plans to leave the Country, & renounce his citizenship of the UK


Shall I go on ?

fishfoodie wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:14 pm Pick a lowlight

- Most changes of Leadership without involving the Plebs
- Smallest Candidate list, & shortest contest
- First Tax Exile PM
- First PM with plans to leave the Country, & renounce his citizenship of the UK

Shall I go on ?

+ Broke the Law
+ Green card

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 pm Whatever we think about the Tories and Rishi, this is still a historic moment.

Yep, not everyone seems pleased though...

I assume that Sunak is going to unleash a jihad on the present cabinet as 6 or 7 of them were backing the return of 'the blond idiot ' !!

Gerry from Lowestoft will be beelin.

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:11 pm

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 pm Whatever we think about the Tories and Rishi, this is still a historic moment.

A new leader, in an apparent democracy, being decided by less than 0.0002% of the population?

We're a Parliamentary democracy - we never have a public vote for a PM. Hume, Callaghan, Major, Brown, May, Johnson, Truss and now Sunak have all become PM outside of a GE. That's 8 out of the last 12 PMs - so let's not pretend it's an unusual part of our democracy.

Sunaks got (in theory) the support of a majority of MPs that's the only legitimate requirement to PM.

People talking about him being illegitimate because he has won a general election don't understand how a Parliamentary system works and are perhaps unknowingly repeating the populist talking point Boris Johnson was pushing (that the GE was a personnel mandate for him).

There is going to this constant blue on blue barrage for months.
For obvious reasons large swathes of the Tory Party hate him. His back stabbing of Boris will never be forgotten by these people.
He brought down one of the most popular Tory politicians in a generation raised taxes to a record level and is seen as a traitor, red wall Tories won't forget that.

JRM and his ilk have pledged to make his life misery and some are calling for a general election now stating he has no mandate unlike Boris.

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:30 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:11 pm

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:07 pm Whatever we think about the Tories and Rishi, this is still a historic moment.

A new leader, in an apparent democracy, being decided by less than 0.0002% of the population?

We're a Parliamentary democracy - we never have a public vote for a PM. Hume, Callaghan, Major, Brown, May, Johnson, Truss and now Sunak have all become PM outside of a GE. That's 8 out of the last 12 PMs - so let's not pretend it's an unusual part of our democracy.

I'm confused, are you now saying a new PM decided by just over 100 people isn't historic?

C69 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm There is going to this constant blue on blue barrage for months.
For obvious reasons large swathes of the Tory Party hate him. His back stabbing of Boris will never be forgotten by these people.
He brought down one of the most popular Tory politicians in a generation raised taxes to a record level and is seen as a traitor, red wall Tories won't forget that.

JRM and his ilk have pledged to make his life misery and some are calling for a general election now stating he has no mandate unlike Boris.

Brave Tory's looking at how many would lose their seats in a GE next month.

tc27 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm Sunaks got (in theory) the support of a majority of MPs that's the only legitimate requirement to PM.

325 MPs backed Sunak

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:37 pm

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:30 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:11 pm

A new leader, in an apparent democracy, being decided by less than 0.0002% of the population?

We're a Parliamentary democracy - we never have a public vote for a PM. Hume, Callaghan, Major, Brown, May, Johnson, Truss and now Sunak have all become PM outside of a GE. That's 8 out of the last 12 PMs - so let's not pretend it's an unusual part of our democracy.

I'm confused, are you now saying a new PM decided by just over 100 people isn't historic?

I think he's ignoring you because these same arguments that come out every time are boring and easily dismissed. See above.

C69 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm There is going to this constant blue on blue barrage for months.
For obvious reasons large swathes of the Tory Party hate him. His back stabbing of Boris will never be forgotten by these people.
He brought down one of the most popular Tory politicians in a generation raised taxes to a record level and is seen as a traitor, red wall Tories won't forget that.

JRM and his ilk have pledged to make his life misery and some are calling for a general election now stating he has no mandate unlike Boris.

Boris Johnson mandate to be MP for Uxbridge..thats it.

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:43 pm

tc27 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm Sunaks got (in theory) the support of a majority of MPs that's the only legitimate requirement to PM.

325 MPs backed Sunak

If he cant command a majority he wont be PM..this will be tested very quickly.

tc27 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:45 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:43 pm

tc27 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm Sunaks got (in theory) the support of a majority of MPs that's the only legitimate requirement to PM.

325 MPs backed Sunak

If he cant command a majority he wont be PM..this will be tested very quickly.

Oh well i am sure all the Middle Earth/England Tory types are not going to like this "brown" person leading their party, they will stay away from the polls in droves if he is still around for the next General election.

C69 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm There is going to this constant blue on blue barrage for months.
For obvious reasons large swathes of the Tory Party hate him. His back stabbing of Boris will never be forgotten by these people.
He brought down one of the most popular Tory politicians in a generation raised taxes to a record level and is seen as a traitor, red wall Tories won't forget that.

JRM and his ilk have pledged to make his life misery and some are calling for a general election now stating he has no mandate unlike Boris.

JRM has changed his tune already

tc27 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm Sunaks got (in theory) the support of a majority of MPs that's the only legitimate requirement to PM.

People talking about him being illegitimate because he has won a general election don't understand how a Parliamentary system works and are perhaps unknowingly repeating the populist talking point Boris Johnson was pushing (that the GE was a personnel mandate for him).

In fairness the same points were made of Truss and Johnson (on his initial takeover) and I recall some Tory grumbling about Brown taking over Labour without a general election. While it might run contrary to how a parliamentary system works, it is a narrative the Tories have had a hand in crafting, so it can't be a surprise when it's turned on them.

Equally, while our electoral system as written may not be about the Prime Minister, it de facto is (at least in part). Who ends up in Number 10 is very much an influence on many who cast their vote.

One for YMX

BBC presenter taken off air for impartiality breach after saying she was 'gleeful' about Johnson pulling out of Tory leadership contest
A statement from the broadcaster said: “BBC News is urgently reviewing last night’s edition of The Papers on the News Channel for a potential breach of impartiality. It is imperative that we maintain the highest editorial standards. We have processes in place to uphold our standards, and these processes have been activated.”

good luck with that!

Slick wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:43 pm I think he's ignoring you because these same arguments that come out every time are boring and easily dismissed. See above.

I guess the historic bit is finally pissing of the die hard Brexit remnants of the support base, the racists

sturginho wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:58 pm

C69 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm There is going to this constant blue on blue barrage for months.
For obvious reasons large swathes of the Tory Party hate him. His back stabbing of Boris will never be forgotten by these people.
He brought down one of the most popular Tory politicians in a generation raised taxes to a record level and is seen as a traitor, red wall Tories won't forget that.

JRM and his ilk have pledged to make his life misery and some are calling for a general election now stating he has no mandate unlike Boris.

JRM has changed his tune already

Has he?

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:37 pm

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:30 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:11 pm

A new leader, in an apparent democracy, being decided by less than 0.0002% of the population?

We're a Parliamentary democracy - we never have a public vote for a PM. Hume, Callaghan, Major, Brown, May, Johnson, Truss and now Sunak have all become PM outside of a GE. That's 8 out of the last 12 PMs - so let's not pretend it's an unusual part of our democracy.

I'm confused, are you now saying a new PM decided by just over 100 people isn't historic?

I can't help it if your'e too dumb to see what is actually historic about Sunak becoming PM.

C69 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:09 pm

sturginho wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:58 pm

C69 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm There is going to this constant blue on blue barrage for months.
For obvious reasons large swathes of the Tory Party hate him. His back stabbing of Boris will never be forgotten by these people.
He brought down one of the most popular Tory politicians in a generation raised taxes to a record level and is seen as a traitor, red wall Tories won't forget that.

JRM and his ilk have pledged to make his life misery and some are calling for a general election now stating he has no mandate unlike Boris.

JRM has changed his tune already

Has he?

Yes, but then he changes his mind every half hour

I must admit, I don't think it's appropriate for the PM to be someone with that much wealth and with such murky tax arrangements.

Start again

In the last day, nominations for the candidates were as follows

Sunak claimed 193
Johnson claimed 102
Mordaunt claimed 90+

That's 385+ MPs putting in nominations

There are 365 Conservative MPs

One* of these lying fuckers is a lying fucker.

*at least one

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:15 pm I must admit, I don't think it's appropriate for the PM to be someone with that much wealth and with such murky tax arrangements.

Wealth shouldn't disqualify someone from being PM - the tax arrangements are another matter altogether and I'm sure that'll be a stick to beat him with !

Oh the Sunak haters are playing a long game now.
There will be constant leaks to Guido and the telegraph a drip drip drip.
The stories of Sunak and his wife's family wealth and dodgy tax affairs will be ramped up, but very slowly and insidiously.
It is going to be glorious.

Biffer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:18 pmTalking bollocks

No doubt there were some porkies being told but the maths can still add up as Morduant would have drwan some of hers from Boris after he withdrew.

Edit - just noticed you took it down

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:59 pm

tc27 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm Sunaks got (in theory) the support of a majority of MPs that's the only legitimate requirement to PM.

People talking about him being illegitimate because he has won a general election don't understand how a Parliamentary system works and are perhaps unknowingly repeating the populist talking point Boris Johnson was pushing (that the GE was a personnel mandate for him).

In fairness the same points were made of Truss and Johnson (on his initial takeover) and I recall some Tory grumbling about Brown taking over Labour without a general election. While it might run contrary to how a parliamentary system works, it is a narrative the Tories have had a hand in crafting, so it can't be a surprise when it's turned on them.

Equally, while our electoral system as written may not be about the Prime Minister, it de facto is (at least in part). Who ends up in Number 10 is very much an influence on many who cast their vote.

It's all very well saying that it's the system you have, & how many times it's happened before; but I'd be sure most of these transitions had people making exactly the same complaints at the time. You just don't change the Leader of the Country like you do your socks, so if there's a reason why you have to, it's almost certainly an inflection point for the entire Country, & not just the Party.

The other thing that makes these transitions controversial, is if the new PM decides to tear up the Manifesto, that brought the party to power, & pretend that having no mandate isn't a problem; that was Truss's mistake. Now the Tories are going to double down, & implement austerity, without ever levelling with the Country, or offering the voters a chance to choose between Manifestos on how to get out of the hole 12 years of Tory Governments have stuck the Country in ?

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:19 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:15 pm I must admit, I don't think it's appropriate for the PM to be someone with that much wealth and with such murky tax arrangements.

Wealth shouldn't disqualify someone from being PM - the tax arrangements are another matter altogether and I'm sure that'll be a stick to beat him with !

It's the combo that's the issue. Massive wealth is grotesque and I think it alienates you from the concerns of the vast majority of the people you're supposed to be governing in a tangible way, but when it exists at least in part due to what seems to be dodgy tax affairs, that takes the biscuit.



I don't think it should be possible to accrue that much personal wealth, but that's a whole separate thing.

Margin__Walker wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:06 pm

Ymx wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:48 am

Margin__Walker wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:45 am

You're the one getting excited about the article. I thought you'd be able to tell us what she's gleeful about.

Not sure, genius. But you seemed pretty sure a minute ago when you were calling it misleading and out of context, that you felt the need to shout moron.

Is this finger in ears moment, shouting wanker/moron … I’m not listening.

She's on the TV on the Sunday night News 24 graveyard shift. It's a shit gig, but there's big breaking news happening as the front pages are hitting the press. This is as exciting as it ever gets presenting that paper review programme.

At no fucking point in the programme does she say or suggest she's happy Boris is withdrawing or happy about the state of the Conservative party.

Of course it's hit the press. Because it's been successfully seeded by disingenuous pricks and amplified by morons, as that's how things work.

You took the double down option.

Well, it’s good to hear the complaints dept of the BBC aren't as flailing around dismissive as you, shouting moron in all directions.

Tbh, I wouldn’t care if the bbc didn’t proclaim to be impartial, and if we weren’t forced to pay for it. But the journalism is not impartial, and we do have to pay for it.

fishfoodie wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:22 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:59 pm

tc27 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm Sunaks got (in theory) the support of a majority of MPs that's the only legitimate requirement to PM.

People talking about him being illegitimate because he has won a general election don't understand how a Parliamentary system works and are perhaps unknowingly repeating the populist talking point Boris Johnson was pushing (that the GE was a personnel mandate for him).

In fairness the same points were made of Truss and Johnson (on his initial takeover) and I recall some Tory grumbling about Brown taking over Labour without a general election. While it might run contrary to how a parliamentary system works, it is a narrative the Tories have had a hand in crafting, so it can't be a surprise when it's turned on them.

Equally, while our electoral system as written may not be about the Prime Minister, it de facto is (at least in part). Who ends up in Number 10 is very much an influence on many who cast their vote.

It's all very well saying that it's the system you have, & how many times it's happened before; but I'd be sure most of these transitions had people making exactly the same complaints at the time. You just don't change the Leader of the Country like you do your socks, so if there's a reason why you have to, it's almost certainly an inflection point for the entire Country, & not just the Party.

The other thing that makes these transitions controversial, is if the new PM decides to tear up the Manifesto, that brought the party to power, & pretend that having no mandate isn't a problem; that was Truss's mistake. Now the Tories are going to double down, & implement austerity, without ever levelling with the Country, or offering the voters a chance to choose between Manifestos on how to get out of the hole 12 years of Tory Governments have stuck the Country in ?

Part of me waves that off because manifestos have long been proven to not be worth the paper their written on once a part actually ascends to power, but, yes, in principal, a government diverging from the manifesto on which their parliamentary party last ran for election on should be cause for a general. Put the new proposed direction before the country and see if they still want your party to have the parliamentary presence to go through with it.

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:24 pm

Ovals wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:19 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:15 pm I must admit, I don't think it's appropriate for the PM to be someone with that much wealth and with such murky tax arrangements.

Wealth shouldn't disqualify someone from being PM - the tax arrangements are another matter altogether and I'm sure that'll be a stick to beat him with !

It's the combo that's the issue. Massive wealth is grotesque and I think it alienates you from the concerns of the vast majority of the people you're supposed to be governing in a tangible way, but when it exists at least in part due to what seems to be dodgy tax affairs, that takes the biscuit.



I don't think it should be possible to accrue that much personal wealth, but that's a whole separate thing.

I tend to agree - but at least he's not in politics to make money and feather his own nest.

Biffer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:18 pm Start again

In the last day, nominations for the candidates were as follows

Sunak claimed 193
Johnson claimed 102
Mordaunt claimed 90+

That's 385+ MPs putting in nominations

There are 365 Conservative MPs

One* of these lying fuckers is a lying fucker.

*at least one

I think when the BB blinked, Mordaunt was only ~30 votes, & then the majority of his votes (probably on 75-80), when to her, these were the ABRs, that's how she got to 90, which tells us he was always lying about his numbers. The real cocksuckers went to Rishi when he was already over the finish line, & practically in the winner enclosure.

EnergiseR2 wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:11 pm Truss must be privately that she got to do the queen shit. That stuff lasts

And sits pretty with the £105k for life.

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:28 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:22 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:59 pm

In fairness the same points were made of Truss and Johnson (on his initial takeover) and I recall some Tory grumbling about Brown taking over Labour without a general election. While it might run contrary to how a parliamentary system works, it is a narrative the Tories have had a hand in crafting, so it can't be a surprise when it's turned on them.

Equally, while our electoral system as written may not be about the Prime Minister, it de facto is (at least in part). Who ends up in Number 10 is very much an influence on many who cast their vote.

It's all very well saying that it's the system you have, & how many times it's happened before; but I'd be sure most of these transitions had people making exactly the same complaints at the time. You just don't change the Leader of the Country like you do your socks, so if there's a reason why you have to, it's almost certainly an inflection point for the entire Country, & not just the Party.

The other thing that makes these transitions controversial, is if the new PM decides to tear up the Manifesto, that brought the party to power, & pretend that having no mandate isn't a problem; that was Truss's mistake. Now the Tories are going to double down, & implement austerity, without ever levelling with the Country, or offering the voters a chance to choose between Manifestos on how to get out of the hole 12 years of Tory Governments have stuck the Country in ?

Part of me waves that off because manifestos have long been proven to not be worth the paper their written on once a part actually ascends to power, but, yes, in principal, a government diverging from the manifesto on which their parliamentary party last ran for election on should be cause for a general. Put the new proposed direction before the country and see if they still want your party to have the parliamentary presence to go through with it.

If we had a sysetm where a new PM had to call a GE - no Party would ever chuck their PM out, no matter how awful they were.

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:28 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:22 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:59 pm

In fairness the same points were made of Truss and Johnson (on his initial takeover) and I recall some Tory grumbling about Brown taking over Labour without a general election. While it might run contrary to how a parliamentary system works, it is a narrative the Tories have had a hand in crafting, so it can't be a surprise when it's turned on them.

Equally, while our electoral system as written may not be about the Prime Minister, it de facto is (at least in part). Who ends up in Number 10 is very much an influence on many who cast their vote.

It's all very well saying that it's the system you have, & how many times it's happened before; but I'd be sure most of these transitions had people making exactly the same complaints at the time. You just don't change the Leader of the Country like you do your socks, so if there's a reason why you have to, it's almost certainly an inflection point for the entire Country, & not just the Party.

The other thing that makes these transitions controversial, is if the new PM decides to tear up the Manifesto, that brought the party to power, & pretend that having no mandate isn't a problem; that was Truss's mistake. Now the Tories are going to double down, & implement austerity, without ever levelling with the Country, or offering the voters a chance to choose between Manifestos on how to get out of the hole 12 years of Tory Governments have stuck the Country in ?

Part of me waves that off because manifestos have long been proven to not be worth the paper their written on once a part actually ascends to power, but, yes, in principal, a government diverging from the manifesto on which their parliamentary party last ran for election on should be cause for a general. Put the new proposed direction before the country and see if they still want your party to have the parliamentary presence to go through with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong; but aren't manifesto bills, no matter how vile, racist, or corrupt, ones that cannot be blocked by the Lords ?

That's a very important tool for ramming home legislation that while the opposition might not like it, the voters have signalled their willingness to go along with it.

In the current circumstances, that may mean the difference between the Tories choosing to fund the fuel crisis thru debt, & cutbacks; or Labour taxing the energy companies excess profits; that's a big damn difference, & I'd say the Labour peers would be entitled to block it; because there's no mandate.

Historic

Insane_Homer wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:55 pm Historic

I like the fact that "David" has the Georgian flag in his twitter name