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I’m not sure this fully holds - the entire flow of the game gets changed by those two decisions and forces us to play 50 minutes + of catch up. Beyond that though our discipline is appalling and it’s hard to win games getting pinged off the park.
Delighted to see that Nigel has exactly backed up my interpretation of both tries. How is that Omelette YMXBnM wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:41 am Nigel Try 1I have sympathy for Owen Farrell and England. What the referee did may have been correct by the letter of the law, but the fair thing would have been to allow England to reset their defence before putting the time back on.
He asked Farrell to speak to his team about their discipline, and England were in that huddle because he asked them to be.
My game management as a referee in that situation would be to say to myself: 'Right, I have asked him to speak to his players. I need to be sure that I give them enough time to get back into defence.' The referee did not do that.
Nigel Try 2Wales' second try should not have been awarded. It was a knock-on by Louis Rees-Zammit.
The law states that if a player loses control of the ball forward, he must regain possession of it otherwise it is a knock-on. Rees-Zammit touched the ball and it went down and forward on to his leg, then backwards.
The key thing here is that had Rees-Zammit's hand not touched the ball, it would have been play on. But it did. He lost control of the ball with his hands and failed to regain possession. That is a knock-on.
If you have any questions, just look at Rees-Zammit's face when the try is awarded. That gives you the answer you need.
You cannot just point the finger at the referee. There were four officials looking at it and between them they should have come to the correct decision. I heard the TMO say that the ball went backwards off the player's leg. That is correct. But what they failed to mention was that it came off his hand first. It's a knock-on.
Think he said it to alleviate the situation in the room, with the Guscott and Johnson outrage.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:35 amI’m not sure this fully holds - the entire flow of the game gets changed by those two decisions and forces us to play 50 minutes + of catch up. Beyond that though our discipline is appalling and it’s hard to win games getting pinged off the park.
Still can’t get over Jiffy giggling and trying to award the ref MoM
I don’t think he did. The outrage is justifiable. Pretending that the loss is solely about the ref would be wrong, but those are two shocking calls for 14 points. Shouldn’t see that at test level. Jones and Farrell did remarkably well not to pile in afterwardsYmx wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 amThink he said it to alleviate the situation in the room, with the Guscott and Johnson outrage.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:35 amI’m not sure this fully holds - the entire flow of the game gets changed by those two decisions and forces us to play 50 minutes + of catch up. Beyond that though our discipline is appalling and it’s hard to win games getting pinged off the park.
Still can’t get over Jiffy giggling and trying to award the ref MoM
He didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.
The ref’s opinion of Farrell was normal for 79.5 mins and even their spat was minor. I saw nothing in the ref’s performance that was affected by either skipper actually. He was just French and shit.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:19 amHe didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.
Plenty of press commentary on how Farrell p*sses off refs. You are living in the same dream world as Eddie methinks.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:19 amHe didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.
Don't disagree with that analysis, he is a terrible terrible captain, petulant and totally unable to control the team. Any half decent captain would have read the riot act to them about the number of penalties they are giving away, stupid dumb penalties, he did fuck all except whine to the referee.Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:27 amPlenty of press commentary on how Farrell p*sses off refs. You are living in the same dream world as Eddie methinks.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:19 amHe didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.
If he was captaining France, I'd be furious (setting aside him being selected at all and being a Northern Mungo Monkey to boot) at his management of officials. In addition, his sh*t attitude and behaviour appears to permeate through to his team's ill discipline.
I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:29 am Wales my second team.
Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.
Apols, someone must have left a quote in the wrong place...it seemed to suggest you were back the on field decision. Or I have misinterpreted in a hurry (always possible
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It was nothing, his shoulder bounced off the ball upwards it was absolutely fine ...Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:41 amI must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:29 am Wales my second team.
Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.
What was the other yellow?
He was certainly making light of it.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:54 amI don’t think he did. The outrage is justifiable. Pretending that the loss is solely about the ref would be wrong, but those are two shocking calls for 14 points. Shouldn’t see that at test level. Jones and Farrell did remarkably well not to pile in afterwardsYmx wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 amThink he said it to alleviate the situation in the room, with the Guscott and Johnson outrage.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:35 am
I’m not sure this fully holds - the entire flow of the game gets changed by those two decisions and forces us to play 50 minutes + of catch up. Beyond that though our discipline is appalling and it’s hard to win games getting pinged off the park.
Still can’t get over Jiffy giggling and trying to award the ref MoM
Speaking of the local area. Don’t know about you but the sun of last couple of days was both great and a killer. Golf clubs were twitching, and I’ve completely forgotten how bad I am at golf.
Agreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:41 amI must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:29 am Wales my second team.
Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.
What was the other yellow?
It may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:38 amAgreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:41 amI must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:29 am Wales my second team.
Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.
What was the other yellow?
Agreed. And Biggar deserves credit for his response. England were fully expecting a kick for the posts or lineout. Most team would have struggled to have adjusted when Biggar tapped immediately after time on was called. Let's not forget Ford was close enough to compete too.GogLais wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:25 am The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.
Water carriers for Wales, too, iirc.GogLais wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:25 am The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.
It was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:42 amIt may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.
I think it was an apologetic let off for the 2 odd calls in the first half.
No he wasn't. He was close enough to make a tackle after the player caught it. Never close enough to compete.assfly wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:52 amAgreed. And Biggar deserves credit for his response. England were fully expecting a kick for the posts or lineout. Most team would have struggled to have adjusted when Biggar tapped immediately after time on was called. Let's not forget Ford was close enough to compete too.GogLais wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:25 am The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.
should have had one for cumulative pensWell speaking of precedence - every time I recall seeing a captain pass on a warning he’s walked towards the team, waved his arms down and literally had a quick word. I don’t remember a team huddling together in that situation with two of the coaching staff. The object of the exercise is to pass on a warning, not to have a coaching meeting.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:22 am Anyone would be seething if that first try was scored against them in that manner. If the ref takes time off and sends a captain away to speak to their team it's customary to tell them when the game's about to resume and give them a few seconds to sort themselves out before starting the clock again. Not stand miles away and only tell the opposition that time's back on.
It may be ok by the letter of the law, but established precedent counts for a lot in rugby.
Having just looked at it again myself, nor was it the 20 seconds you've been claiming. I don't think you're looking at this even remotely objectively.GogLais wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:09 pm I can only quote David Walsh in the Sunday Times - when the referee suggested to Farrell that he should have a word with his team, he wasn’t inviting him to have a water break, nor did he ask the England captain to come back to him with word on when his team were ready to recommence.
More commentary along those linesASMO wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:37 am Don't disagree with that analysis, he is a terrible terrible captain, petulant and totally unable to control the team. Any half decent captain would have read the riot act to them about the number of penalties they are giving away, stupid dumb penalties, he did fuck all except whine to the referee.
in an article on the online abuse by English supporters to the beeb interviewer.With regard to Farrell, the interview exists in the context of people questioning his leadership style in general. He is a rugby player and person with a lot of impressive qualities, but communication with referees is not always apparent among them. He is a lead-by-example skipper, which is fine, but part of the captain’s role these days is to get the referee onside, and it was clear from his interactions with Pascal Gaüzère that he is a million miles away from the referee-whispering qualities of, say, Sam Warburton.
Only 2 decisions against you (one of which wasn't law anyway and the other one remains contentious).Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:43 am The two decisions don’t excuse England’s appalling discipline, I fully agree with that
Head knocked back at the impact. High dangerous tackle connected with force. Or are you changing your stance on high tackles for this one?JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:21 amIt was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.
What was that previous well known account of this? Talking to team when quick tap taken. For some reason I recall Ireland somehow involved.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:22 am Anyone would be seething if that first try was scored against them in that manner. If the ref takes time off and sends a captain away to speak to their team it's customary to tell them when the game's about to resume and give them a few seconds to sort themselves out before starting the clock again. Not stand miles away and only tell the opposition that time's back on.
It may be ok by the letter of the law, but established precedent counts for a lot in rugby.
I'm saying what happened. Players getting knocked back with a chest tackle isn't high or dangerous, though I accept he should tackle lower or risk it going wrong - lowering the tackle height is important.Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:48 pmHead knocked back at the impact. High dangerous tackle connected with force. Or are you changing your stance on high tackles for this one?
