2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[Brazil]

Smith v Russell, Smith by TKO i would say, he definately warrants a place in the squad, if he plays this well after being out since November, it bodes well for England.

Hilariously Stephen Jones drops him from the England squad for Charlie Atkinson in today's Times.

[Torquemada 1420]

Smith v Russell, Smith by TKO i would say, he definately warrants a place in the squad, if he plays this well after being out since November, it bodes well for England.

Whaaaaaaaaat? How is that even a discussion point? Flaaaaaake committed enough howlers that any single one would have drawn criticism were it any other FH.

[JM2K6]

HOW IS THAT A KNOCK ON AGAINST QUINS

honestly this is remarkable stuff, just inventing shit

Quins 14 strips it off Imhoff, it goes forward and Esterhuizen catches it.

Nope. There's no strip - Imhoff fumbles in contact. Murley's on his arms, not the ball, and that's what forces the loss of possession. At all times the ball is actually past Murley's elbow, he never touches it directly (it gets fumbled against his body)

[Torquemada 1420]

Smith v Russell, Smith by TKO i would say, he definately warrants a place in the squad, if he plays this well after being out since November, it bodes well for England.

Hilariously Stephen Jones drops him from the England squad for Charlie Atkinson in today's Times.

Rugby is bizarre. Refs like Brace and Adamson get appointments. Jones and Jake get paid for writing about it.

[JM2K6]

I guess we should've known what to expect when he thought the Wallace -> Dombrandt kick in the first half was absolutely fine. It's remarkable how often there are situations that are flagrantly illegal and he just doesn't understand what's going on. Just clueless. He has the worst instincts of any ref currently operating at professional level that I've seen.

He lacks some of the faults of other refs - he largely keeps calm, he doesn't seem to genuinely take against one side, he doesn't get in the way, he manages players pretty well - but his primary job is to see, understand, and judge these incidents and he is absolutely appalling at it.

[weegie01]

HOW IS THAT A KNOCK ON AGAINST QUINS

honestly this is remarkable stuff, just inventing shit

Quins 14 strips it off Imhoff, it goes forward and Esterhuizen catches it.

Nope. There's no strip - Imhoff fumbles in contact. Murley's on his arms, not the ball, and that's what forces the loss of possession. At all times the ball is actually past Murley's elbow, he never touches it directly (it gets fumbled against his body)

I disagree. Murley's right arm clearly goes up and away from Imhoff and it looks to me a stripping action, especially as the ball pops forward immediately he does it.

Either way, with the benefit of replays we disagree on what happened, so even if he was wrong, it was not a daft call from the AR.

[JM2K6]

Quins 14 strips it off Imhoff, it goes forward and Esterhuizen catches it.

Nope. There's no strip - Imhoff fumbles in contact. Murley's on his arms, not the ball, and that's what forces the loss of possession. At all times the ball is actually past Murley's elbow, he never touches it directly (it gets fumbled against his body)

I disagree. Murley's right arm clearly goes up and away from Imhoff and it looks to me a stripping action, especially as the ball pops forward immediately he does it.

Either way, with the benefit of replays we disagree on what happened, so even if he was wrong, it was not a daft call from the AR.

The rear view shows it really clearly. Murley's right arm never makes contact with the ball and his hand is nowhere near it. Imhoff just loses it because of Murley going for his arms. You're talking about "it looks like a stripping action", I'm talking about literally being able to see the ball and the arm in question thanks to a better angle.

Never been a fan of "There's disagreement so therefore it was not a bad call". There's been some nailed on bad calls that have been argued about online. That's life.

[Openside]

God that was hard to watch Morris if he had had the ball in the correct arm could have fallen over the tryline and scored.

Then to get YC’d although it seemed to me he was committed to the tackle whilst the R92 was on the ground he then jumped ??

[Paddington Bear]

Brace is a clown.

How many yellows has Russell got for deliberate knock ons now?

Ref bashing is ugly Boet. You are better then this specially after a loss.

It is possible to wildly overstate the extent to which I wanted Quins to win

[sockwithaticket]

Watching the highlights/Rugby Tonight and just saw the interview with Stormers' coach where he said, quite frankly, that he feels coaches probably aren't doing enough on the training pitch to get players to change their tackle behaviour. That they talk about it with players a lot, but maybe aren't actually doing enough. He went on to say that it's something they need to address more because keeping 15 players on the field is important.

Fair play to him for the honesty.

I also quite like how over the last couple of weeks some of the BT framing of the discussion has been asking why these tackles are still occurring? Slowly, ever so slowly, we might be getting to a point where people actually involved in the game start pointint the finger in the right direction and put some heat on those not making the necessary adjustments.

[Torquemada 1420]

God that was hard to watch Morris if he had had the ball in the correct arm could have fallen over the tryline and scored.

Then to get YC’d although it seemed to me he was committed to the tackle whilst the R92 was on the ground he then jumped ??

Who are you?

[Sandstorm]

Back from Stormers v LI, loved it. Brentford may only be a 20k seater stadium, but it’s very nice. Easy in and out, large seats so you’re not rubbing elbows with everyone - handy cos I sat next to Delon Armitage and he’s still a big guy. Despite the cold, the Irish fans were in fine voice.

The Stormers lost their way completely when Libbok went off. Willemse makes stupid decisions - usually involving a poor kick at a time when we should keep possession and Dan Du Plessis is a greedy crowbar. No wonder the backs score fuck-all points in the last 30 minutes.

[Torquemada 1420]

Back from Stormers v LI, loved it. Brentford may only be a 20k seater stadium, but it’s very nice. Easy in and out, large seats so you’re not rubbing elbows with everyone - handy cos I sat next to Delon Armitage and he’s still a big guy. Despite the cold, the Irish fans were in fine voice.

The Stormers lost their way completely when Libbok went off. Willemse makes stupid decisions - usually involving a poor kick at a time when we should keep possession and Dan Du Plessis is a greedy crowbar. No wonder the backs score fuck-all points in the last 30 minutes.

Felon? You mean Steffon?

[JM2K6]

Delon was doing TV for BT, so he was there.

[Sandstorm]

Delon was doing TV for BT, so he was there.

[Torquemada 1420]

Delon was doing TV for BT, so he was there.

He wasn't the fat one though.

[Sandstorm]

Delon was doing TV for BT, so he was there.

He wasn't the fat one though.

I know that. He’s still a big guy compared to a keyboard warrior like me.

[JM2K6]

Yeah he's like 6'3 or something and was always pretty physical.

[PornDog]

Watching the highlights/Rugby Tonight and just saw the interview with Stormers' coach where he said, quite frankly, that he feels coaches probably aren't doing enough on the training pitch to get players to change their tackle behaviour. That they talk about it with players a lot, but maybe aren't actually doing enough. He went on to say that it's something they need to address more because keeping 15 players on the field is important.

Fair play to him for the honesty.

I also quite like how over the last couple of weeks some of the BT framing of the discussion has been asking why these tackles are still occurring? Slowly, ever so slowly, we might be getting to a point where people actually involved in the game start pointint the finger in the right direction and put some heat on those not making the necessary adjustments.

Was having a discussion a few weeks ago on the other bored where we were arguing the finer differences between a head contact tackle where the tackler drives into it (red card) or where it is more of a soak tackle (Yellow card). My argument was that while there is a difference in the force, that difference isn't enough to reduce the level of danger a significant amount (kind of a would you rather get shot in the chest or the leg type situation). So it should be a red card either way. I was met with exasperation and asked if I wanted to do away with tackling all together.

We've gotten to the point where these high contact tackles are so ubiquitous that people dont' actually understand that there is another way to tackle. When was the last time anyone had to look at a Van der Flier or Dan Lydiate tackle to review its legality, yet nobody in a million years would ever consider either of them poor defenders. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of players that are great defenders that actually tackle properly.

Leading with the shoulder also happens several times in every game and drives me fucking nuts. Head contact or no, if you lead with the shoulder with force then the starting point should be a red card.

[Ovals]

Watching the highlights/Rugby Tonight and just saw the interview with Stormers' coach where he said, quite frankly, that he feels coaches probably aren't doing enough on the training pitch to get players to change their tackle behaviour. That they talk about it with players a lot, but maybe aren't actually doing enough. He went on to say that it's something they need to address more because keeping 15 players on the field is important.

Fair play to him for the honesty.

I also quite like how over the last couple of weeks some of the BT framing of the discussion has been asking why these tackles are still occurring? Slowly, ever so slowly, we might be getting to a point where people actually involved in the game start pointint the finger in the right direction and put some heat on those not making the necessary adjustments.

Was having a discussion a few weeks ago on the other bored where we were arguing the finer differences between a head contact tackle where the tackler drives into it (red card) or where it is more of a soak tackle (Yellow card). My argument was that while there is a difference in the force, that difference isn't enough to reduce the level of danger a significant amount (kind of a would you rather get shot in the chest or the leg type situation). So it should be a red card either way. I was met with exasperation and asked if I wanted to do away with tackling all together.

We've gotten to the point where these high contact tackles are so ubiquitous that people dont' actually understand that there is another way to tackle. When was the last time anyone had to look at a Van der Flier or Dan Lydiate tackle to review its legality, yet nobody in a million years would ever consider either of them poor defenders. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of players that are great defenders that actually tackle properly.

Leading with the shoulder also happens several times in every game and drives me fucking nuts. Head contact or no, if you lead with the shoulder with force then the starting point should be a red card.

Yep - players just aren't learning quickly enough. It's very annoying because it ruins so many games. Hopefully the newer players, coming into the game, will have it more ingrained into their technique.

[fishfoodie]

Yep - players just aren't learning quickly enough. It's very annoying because it ruins so many games. Hopefully the newer players, coming into the game, will have it more ingrained into their technique.

It might take awhile; I mean for me the problem starts with the desire to stop the tackled player getting in an offload, & the only way to do that is an upright tackle.

It must be at least a decade of defense coaches stressing this tactic; so reversing this, & getting players to trust their defense isn't going to be quick.

[weegie01]

Yep - players just aren't learning quickly enough. It's very annoying because it ruins so many games. Hopefully the newer players, coming into the game, will have it more ingrained into their technique.

It might take awhile; I mean for me the problem starts with the desire to stop the tackled player getting in an offload, & the only way to do that is an upright tackle.

It must be at least a decade of defense coaches stressing this tactic; so reversing this, & getting players to trust their defense isn't going to be quick.

On BT O'Driscoll was explaining (and demonstrating) why this is not true and a correct chop tackle stops offloads just as effectively.

[JM2K6]

What irritates me a lot about all of this is that England at the 2019 World Cup very clearly decided to focus on low tackles to great success. Including Farrell...

Curry and Underhill in particular showed how effective they can be.

[sockwithaticket]

Yep - players just aren't learning quickly enough. It's very annoying because it ruins so many games. Hopefully the newer players, coming into the game, will have it more ingrained into their technique.

It might take awhile; I mean for me the problem starts with the desire to stop the tackled player getting in an offload, & the only way to do that is an upright tackle.

It must be at least a decade of defense coaches stressing this tactic; so reversing this, & getting players to trust their defense isn't going to be quick.

On BT O'Driscoll was explaining (and demonstrating) why this is not true and a correct chop tackle stops offloads just as effectively.

You don't even have to go that low, smacking someone at the base of their ribs gets you low enough that you've a significant margin for error if the player you're tackling dips or you've misjudged, but is also high enough that getting their arms clear for an offload is hardly straightforward.

[sockwithaticket]

Watching the highlights/Rugby Tonight and just saw the interview with Stormers' coach where he said, quite frankly, that he feels coaches probably aren't doing enough on the training pitch to get players to change their tackle behaviour. That they talk about it with players a lot, but maybe aren't actually doing enough. He went on to say that it's something they need to address more because keeping 15 players on the field is important.

Fair play to him for the honesty.

I also quite like how over the last couple of weeks some of the BT framing of the discussion has been asking why these tackles are still occurring? Slowly, ever so slowly, we might be getting to a point where people actually involved in the game start pointint the finger in the right direction and put some heat on those not making the necessary adjustments.

Was having a discussion a few weeks ago on the other bored where we were arguing the finer differences between a head contact tackle where the tackler drives into it (red card) or where it is more of a soak tackle (Yellow card). My argument was that while there is a difference in the force, that difference isn't enough to reduce the level of danger a significant amount (kind of a would you rather get shot in the chest or the leg type situation). So it should be a red card either way. I was met with exasperation and asked if I wanted to do away with tackling all together.

We've gotten to the point where these high contact tackles are so ubiquitous that people dont' actually understand that there is another way to tackle. When was the last time anyone had to look at a Van der Flier or Dan Lydiate tackle to review its legality, yet nobody in a million years would ever consider either of them poor defenders. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of players that are great defenders that actually tackle properly.

Leading with the shoulder also happens several times in every game and drives me fucking nuts. Head contact or no, if you lead with the shoulder with force then the starting point should be a red card.

The mitigations added to the framework are a load of shite. Should be done away with.The idea behind them was well-intentioned, but they're terribly utilised and have had a detrimental impact on the consistency of decisions.

Defenders of players that go high conveniently forget there's a horde of other players who manage to go week to week without clocking anyone in the head.

[Paddington Bear]

A lot of players are very, very thick and have come up through a system that prioritises “the smash” above all else. ‘This tackle is just as effective’ won’t register as it is about the collision for its own sake not the effect on the game.

I also think there’s a gamble from coaches that WR won’t allow their showpiece tournament to go like this weekend did and there will be far more mitigation.

[Camroc2]

Quins robbed.

Working class Manc in London posh-boy transformation horror !

[OomStruisbaai]

South Africa's team debuting well in the Heineken Cup. The Bulls the only team that may struggle playing Lyon away this weekend. Sharks and Stormers heading for home games in the round of 16.

Lions and Cheetahs not so good in the Challenge Cup.

[Sards]

South Africa's team debuting well in the Heineken Cup. The Bulls the only team that may struggle playing Lyon away this weekend. Sharks and Stormers heading for home games in the round of 16.

Lions and Cheetahs not so good in the Challenge Cup.

Let's be honest. The quality of the sides in the challenge cup is seriously sub par. This is when I can say that I miss Superrugby.

It's no fun watching a team get beaten so soundly every game. I switch off half time in most cases

And beating the same teams home and away is not pleasant. Why not play against all the sides rather.

[assfly]

South Africa's team debuting well in the Heineken Cup. The Bulls the only team that may struggle playing Lyon away this weekend. Sharks and Stormers heading for home games in the round of 16.

Lions and Cheetahs not so good in the Challenge Cup.

After the round of 16, all games are in Europe. I think we could struggle if we make it that far.

[OomStruisbaai]

Sards Do you watched the Challenge Cup? Cheetahs and Lions play in it.

Soup is a dead horse. It killed our rugby.

The HC format is just as shite as what Soup is.

At least there are close games like Quins vs Racing but then you only watch the Sharks games.

The HC have 3 games at the same time, so it's a much better product and at least there are crowds and supporters with true rugby culture Something a trolley like you will never appreciate.

[assfly]

So sorry for Quins, but given their recent run of form it was always going to be a tough one.

They looked like a different team today, they look so much more dangerous with Smith back. Also good to see Lewies and Morris back too.

I wonder what their plan will be going forward. Concentrate on the premiership?

[Sards]

Sards Do you watched the Challenge Cup? Cheetahs and Lions play in it.

Soup is a dead horse. It killed our rugby.

The HC format is just as shite as what Soup is.

At least there are close games like Quins vs Racing but then you only watch the Sharks games.

The HC have 3 games at the same time, so it's a much better product and at least there are crowds and supporters with true rugby culture Something a trolley like you will never appreciate.

Whatever it's processed as. No quality whatsoever. This is a case of quantity over quality. You hated soup because Stormers got groot pakslaae from the Kiwis. Now you found an inferior comp where you can win something you are happy. It's like the seniors winning a junior comp. What it does do is spread the team over 2 comps. Hardly ideal.
And don't give me bullshit about pedigree and rugby culture. We lost that when we stopped playing with the Kiwis.

[JM2K6]

So sorry for Quins, but given their recent run of form it was always going to be a tough one.

They looked like a different team today, they look so much more dangerous with Smith back. Also good to see Lewies and Morris back too.

I wonder what their plan will be going forward. Concentrate on the premiership?

Tricky to say - the 2 losing bonus points they got from the game aren't nothing.

[Kawazaki]

I'm a big fan of Smith but as I said elsewhere, he needs to do the prosaic as well as he does the spectacular. Quins really should have won that game and I suspect if they'd had a certain other 10 playing for them they would have closed it out.

[Tichtheid]

I'm a big fan of Smith but as I said elsewhere, he needs to do the prosaic as well as he does the spectacular. Quins really should have won that game and I suspect if they'd had a certain other 10 playing for them they would have closed it out.

Quins were fortunate in two things, one was Racing being so profligate whilst two players to the good and failing to score from an attacking position, and two, Finn showing his Hyde side in dropping a regulation high ball and donating 7 points in the shape of a penalty try.

Racing should have had the game well won by the time Russell stuffed up.

Smith almost single-handedly got Quins back into the game in a period of the second half when it looked very bleak for them

[Kawazaki]

I'm a big fan of Smith but as I said elsewhere, he needs to do the prosaic as well as he does the spectacular. Quins really should have won that game and I suspect if they'd had a certain other 10 playing for them they would have closed it out.

Quins were fortunate in two things, one was Racing being so profligate whilst two players to the good and failing to score from an attacking position, and two, Finn showing his Hyde side in dropping a regulation high ball and donating 7 points in the shape of a penalty try.

Racing should have had the game well won by the time Russell stuffed up.

Smith almost single-handedly got Quins back into the game in a period of the second half when it looked very bleak for them

You look at the game from minute 1 to 80.

Quins should have won that match.

[Torquemada 1420]

I'm a big fan of Smith but as I said elsewhere, he needs to do the prosaic as well as he does the spectacular. Quins really should have won that game and I suspect if they'd had a certain other 10 playing for them they would have closed it out.

FM. Quins would have been dead and buried were it not for the 2 FHs. Smith dragging his team back into it and Russell trying to drag his out of it.

[OomStruisbaai]

South Africa's team debuting well in the Heineken Cup. The Bulls the only team that may struggle playing Lyon away this weekend. Sharks and Stormers heading for home games in the round of 16.

Lions and Cheetahs not so good in the Challenge Cup.

After the round of 16, all games are in Europe. I think we could struggle if we make it that far.

Nope.

In a report by Ireland publication The42, the EPCR [European Professional Club Rugby] confirmed the three South African teams will be able to earn home round-of-16 and quarter-final games.

If two South African teams are drawn against each other in the final four, the EPCR said that “this position may be reviewed”.

[OomStruisbaai]

The Sharks and Bulls need to win their away games.

Stormers at home against Clermont.