NPR

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:32 am Corbyn has written a foreword to an anti-Semitic book calling it brilliant.

Imperialism: A Study (1902), by John A. Hobson, is a politico-economic discourse about the negative financial, economic, and moral aspects of imperialism as a nationalistic business enterprise. Hobson argues that capitalist business activity brought about imperialism

What is brilliant, and very controversial at the time, is his analysis of the pressures that were hard at work in pushing for a vast national effort in grabbing new outposts of Empire on distant island and shores. His painstaking analysis of the costs, and the alleged benefits, of Empire is very powerful.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:46 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:32 am Corbyn has written a foreword to an anti-Semitic book calling it brilliant.

For a bit of context here, the book is "Imperialism; A Study" by John A Hobson, first published in 1902.

It's easier to C&P from Wiki than to write it up myself

Imperialism: A Study (1902), by John A. Hobson, is a politico-economic discourse about the negative financial, economic, and moral aspects of imperialism as a nationalistic business enterprise. Hobson argues that capitalist business activity brought about imperialism

In the book Hobson uses a number of antisemitic tropes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperiali ... and_racism

"The Jewish Question" was apparently first raised in Britain around 1750, when the crown was looking to reward Jewish loyalty during the Jacobite rebellion of 1745. It remained a contemporary topic of "intellectual" European discourse throughout the 19th century and of course on into the 20th.
Again for a bit of context, the slavery Abolition Act came into being in 1833, these are not enlightened times. Antisemitism has a long history in Europe, it's not condoning it in the slightest to recognise its existence, nor it is some kind of moral relativism to look at the wider culture of when a book is published.

Of course the book is antisemitic and of course the mural was antisemitic, however, I genuinely don't think Corbyn goes around thinking and talking about the Jewish Question. I do think he goes around thinking and talking about The Capitalism Question and where he and others on the Left get it so wrong is that they don't think making a link between "Jewishness" and Capitalism is antisemitic where it clearly is.

oh and just for the record, it's wrong to say Corbyn called the book "brilliant". In the forward he uses that word once,

What is brilliant, and very controversial at the time, is his analysis of the pressures that were hard at work in pushing for a vast national effort in grabbing new outposts of Empire on distant island and shores. His painstaking analysis of the costs, and the alleged benefits, of Empire is very powerful.

https://www.spokesmanbooks.com/Spokesma ... Corbyn.pdf

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:55 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:46 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:32 am Corbyn has written a foreword to an anti-Semitic book calling it brilliant.

For a bit of context here, the book is "Imperialism; A Study" by John A Hobson, first published in 1902.

It's easier to C&P from Wiki than to write it up myself

Imperialism: A Study (1902), by John A. Hobson, is a politico-economic discourse about the negative financial, economic, and moral aspects of imperialism as a nationalistic business enterprise. Hobson argues that capitalist business activity brought about imperialism

In the book Hobson uses a number of antisemitic tropes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperiali ... and_racism

"The Jewish Question" was apparently first raised in Britain around 1750, when the crown was looking to reward Jewish loyalty during the Jacobite rebellion of 1745. It remained a contemporary topic of "intellectual" European discourse throughout the 19th century and of course on into the 20th.
Again for a bit of context, the slavery Abolition Act came into being in 1833, these are not enlightened times. Antisemitism has a long history in Europe, it's not condoning it in the slightest to recognise its existence, nor it is some kind of moral relativism to look at the wider culture of when a book is published.

Of course the book is antisemitic and of course the mural was antisemitic, however, I genuinely don't think Corbyn goes around thinking and talking about the Jewish Question. I do think he goes around thinking and talking about The Capitalism Question and where he and others on the Left get it so wrong is that they don't think making a link between "Jewishness" and Capitalism is antisemitic where it clearly is.

oh and just for the record, it's wrong to say Corbyn called the book "brilliant". In the forward he uses that word once,

What is brilliant, and very controversial at the time, is his analysis of the pressures that were hard at work in pushing for a vast national effort in grabbing new outposts of Empire on distant island and shores. His painstaking analysis of the costs, and the alleged benefits, of Empire is very powerful.

https://www.spokesmanbooks.com/Spokesma ... Corbyn.pdf

OK. Then he simply called it a "great tome". Much better.

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:16 pm not sure how accurate this is but would be funny if true

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:58 pm Did you really only read the first sentence?

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:09 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:58 pm Did you really only read the first sentence?

No, I read pretty much all of it. And? You felt the need to point out that the word brilliant was taken out of context, and that Corbyn didn't call the book brilliant.

It's harder to say he didn't call it great.

As you point out yourself, it's an antisemitic book, and it basically spells out that financial institutions are a huge part of the problem behind the issues of imperialism, and also states that the financial institutes (especially in Europe) are run by the Jews. The author was a recognised anti-Semite before this book, it was recognised as an anti-Semitic book long before 2011, and yet Corbyn just so unfortunately keeps finding himself agreeing/praising anti-Semitic things.

He's so careful not to refer to Hamas/Hezbollah as terrorists, and when he rarely does it's in extremely couched terms. Every word picked carefully. And yet when it comes to blatant anti-Semitism, suddenly that careful nature just lets him down, repeatedly, whether this foreword, the mural, finding himself at a ceremony holding a wreath when the murderers of Israeli Olympians in 1972 were commemorated. Give me a break.

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:58 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:16 pm not sure how accurate this is but would be funny if true

What riots?

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:53 pm
Idk, best to address that question to the person who wrote the tweet, all I saw and read was the widespread public incitement to commit genocide against Jews, some people dressed up as Hamas and Hezbollah,, some people celebrating what happend on October 7th, Jews being harrased on the streets, attempted stabbing of a guy holding up a anti hamas sign, and some war memorials being desecrated

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:53 pm

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:58 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:16 pm not sure how accurate this is but would be funny if true

What riots?

Idk, best to address that question to the person who wrote the tweet, all I saw and read was the widespread public incitement to commit genocide against Jews, some people dressed up as Hamas and Hezbollah,, some people celebrating what happend on October 7th, Jews being harrased on the streets, attempted stabbing of a guy holding up a anti hamas sign, and some war memorials being desecrated

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:59 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:53 pm

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:58 pm

What riots?

Idk, best to address that question to the person who wrote the tweet, all I saw and read was the widespread public incitement to commit genocide against Jews, some people dressed up as Hamas and Hezbollah,, some people celebrating what happend on October 7th, Jews being harrased on the streets, attempted stabbing of a guy holding up a anti hamas sign, and some war memorials being desecrated

Well you do know there wasn't a riot.

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 2:22 pm

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:59 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:53 pm
Idk, best to address that question to the person who wrote the tweet, all I saw and read was the widespread public incitement to commit genocide against Jews, some people dressed up as Hamas and Hezbollah,, some people celebrating what happend on October 7th, Jews being harrased on the streets, attempted stabbing of a guy holding up a anti hamas sign, and some war memorials being desecrated

Well you do know there wasn't a riot.

The point, as I'm sure you know, was about the protests leadiing to a decrease in support amongst the public for their position. I suspect it has, although only marginally so, nowhere near the amount stated in the tweet

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:43 pm
So aside from all the bits that are untrue, the tweet is completely true?

The Palestinian Prisoners Society, representing prisoners held by Israel, said Qawasmi was one of more than 2,700 Palestinians arrested in the West Bank since Oct. 7 when Hamas gunmen breached the fence enclosing Gaza and launched an attack in which Israel says 1,200 people were killed and about 240 people were taken hostage.

The number of Palestinians held by Israel has risen to more than 7,800, including some 300 children and 72 women, said Qadura Fares, head of the Palestinian Authority Commission for Prisoners' Affairs. He said the number did not include prisoners from Gaza, which he said Israel refuses to disclose.

At least four Palestinian prisoners have died in Israeli custody in recent weeks, Fares said. He said autopsies showed they were tortured or medically neglected. Hundreds more prisoners were wounded after being severely beaten, their limbs and ribs broken and their bodies bruised, he added.

An Israeli prisons spokesperson said three Palestinian prisoners had died in three different circumstances over the past six weeks and that the incidents were under investigation.

Qawasmi said he was placed in administrative detention in Ofer Prison, where he said the cells were overcrowded. He said of some 70 prisoners he encountered, most had visible bruises and one prisoner who was beaten until his arm was broken was denied medical attention.

UN Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian Territories Francesca Albanese says there is a disconnect between atrocities committed in Gaza and the response of the Western world.

In New Zealand to meet with politicians, NGOs, human rights advocates and businesses this week, Albanese is calling for a multi-country intervention in the conflict.

She told reporters in Auckland that Hamas had committed war crimes, but actions taken by the Israeli military also violated the principles of international law - and there was a risk the crime of genocide was being carried out against the Palestinian people.

"Let's be clear: [Hamas'] killing civilians and taking civilian hostages are war crimes, and I've extended and continue to extend my deepest condolences to all communities affected.

"At the same time, what has happened in the occupied Palestinian territories - primarily in Gaza - is a complete violation of all basic principles that international law establishes.

"There have been over 12,000 people killed over a month now by Israeli bombs and military operations, 5000 of these are children, over 1.6 million people forcibly displaced, 30,000 Palestinians injured, and there is no measure to rescue them because Israel has also tightened its illegal blockade ... a collective punishment on the 2.2 million people living in the Gaza strip, half of whom are children.

"Half of the civilian infrastructure has been destroyed, 40,000 homes and churches, mosques, entire residential buildings, refugee camps and schools, bakeries, universities, there's very little to start, restart life after a ceasefire is declared.

"I've warned three times against the risk that Israel might be committing the crime of genocide in Gaza ... there has been calls to flatten Gaza, to erase Gaza from Earth, and to kill the Gazans because they are 'also responsible for what Hamas has done' and there is no distinction here between civilians and militants."

Albanese, an international lawyer and academic, is the first woman appointed to the role since it was established in 1993.

Officially the "Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967" - she is required to objectively monitor and report the situation in Gaza and the West Bank, and to provide details on it and its international legal ramifications to UN member countries.

"My role does entail observing the strictest standards of objectivity and impartiality ... once the facts are established, my responsibility is to analyse them according to the applicable international framework," she said.

The situation required the international community to promptly intervene, she said.

"We face a reality of a 56-year-old occupation - which has been the vehicle to colonise, to illegally annex, land that should be for ... an independent and sovereign state of Palestine - accompanied by the oppression of the Palestinian residents under a regime that cannot be called otherwise than apartheid. And nothing concrete has been done at an international level," she said.

"I'm really appalled the international community and each member state has not powerfully stood up to see a ceasefire declared and imposed among the warring parties.

"I don't understand why the political echelon in Western countries is being so removed from its obligations under international law, which include prevention of atrocity crimes. There is atrocity crimes being committed in Gaza and no-one is taking responsibility for it.

"What's going on in the occupied Palestinian territory is not only horrific in and of itself but is also a risk to threaten a broader regional conflagration. So I know peace is not the first thing that comes to the mind of the US administration - ever, if we look at 20 years of engagement in the Middle East and beyond - but at the same time, why the rest of the West needs to go behind it? Do we have our own consciousness?"

"What does it take to require a ceasefire, when over 12,000 people have been killed, 5000 of them are children and 3000 of them are under the rubble? Until a few days ago I would say gasping for air, but in fact they are now rotting under the rubble."

She said the situation had not been addressed as it should have been over a period of years, and the UN was completely paralysed because of the US veto and ongoing support for Israel.

"The general assembly and the Human Rights Council being more democratic and representative entities have tried to change the course of the meta (sic) but eventually international law is [only] as strong as the will of the member states to enforce it and there has been very little appetite, very little interest to take concrete measures."

It was clear Israel's continued military operation in Gaza was "not just about neutralising or annihilating Hamas military capacity".

"The goal was flattening the entire civilian infrastructure in Gaza, killing thousands of innocent people, how does it serve the purpose of depotentiating Hamas?

"I mean, how is this going to make the Palestinians less traumatised and less resentful towards the state of Israel which - it is to be remembered - had already killed thousands of people including 1000 children over the five wars that had occurred in 2008, 2009, 2012, 2014, 2021, 2022. It's heavy."

She also placed some blame with Western media, saying the reporting contributed to the dehumanisation of Palestinians and failed to take a principled, objective and impartial stance. This included a lack of reporting on the Israelis who opposed the occupation, on the marches in support of Palestinian citizens around Europe, and a failure to challenge Israeli generals over their statements in live interviews.

"I will not name any particular media but for example I come from a country, Italy ... while not representative of entire Europe it does represent a general modus operandi.

"In the West, both political leaders and the media are playing an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible role in not presenting the facts as they are and in often confusing their legal qualifications," she said.

She said war crimes "happened while states were continuing to recite the mantra of the two-state solution - which, I mean, there is international consensus but how can we get there while Israel continues to build the colonies and to maintain an apartheid regime by default?"

She called for a multilateral intervention in the conflict.

"That clearly accompanies Israel's demilitarisation, not just Hamas, but Israel needs to withdraw its military troops and needs to end the colonial enterprise in what remains of the occupied Palestinian territory ... what remains of historical Palestine. This is what needs to be done if the two-state solution really means something."

She said some had talked of a different kind of solution, and while she didn't know whether that was the right one, the two-state proposal did not match the reality.

"Why there is so much obsession with the form of state? There is a one-state reality on the ground with profound discrimination, and what should be the care of the international community is that everyone between the Jordan River and the sea enjoys recognition of humanity, and equal rights and freedoms of humanity.

"These people, both people - one more than the other, if you look at the numbers - need healing. Healing. This is not something that politicians ... doesn't register with them, the trauma, and heal the trauma that has been there forever.

"There should be accountability but more than anything else it's a fair approach to both people. That cannot happen without ... the deployment of a protective presence on the ground."

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:49 pm Ah, the completely objective Francesca Albanese, how she got employed for an impartial and objective role is a bit of a joke really.

She's referred to the US as being subjugated to the Jewish Lobby. She's compared the 1948 nakba to the nazi genocide. And the cherry on top if her husband was employed by the Palestinian Authority in a governmental role.

I do agree that there should be an international intervention though. Israel should feel secure in completely leaving Gaza and the West Bank, and leaving the security to an international team.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:43 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 2:22 pm

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:59 pm

Well you do know there wasn't a riot.

The point, as I'm sure you know, was about the protests leadiing to a decrease in support amongst the public for their position. I suspect it has, although only marginally so, nowhere near the amount stated in the tweet

So aside from all the bits that are untrue, the tweet is completely true?

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:52 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:49 pm Ah, the completely objective Francesca Albanese, how she got employed for an impartial and objective role is a bit of a joke really.

She's referred to the US as being subjugated to the Jewish Lobby. She's compared the 1948 nakba to the nazi genocide. And the cherry on top if her husband was employed by the Palestinian Authority in a governmental role.

I do agree that there should be an international intervention though. Israel should feel secure in completely leaving Gaza and the West Bank, and leaving the security to an international team.

Do you honestly think that Israel could/would give up the land it has seized in the west bank?

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:30 pm Meh lies

Straight out ofthe Guy Smiley Playbook




Jesus Wept

Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 am

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:30 pm Meh lies

Straight out ofthe Guy Smiley Playbook




Jesus Wept

Thinking the UN is impartial? The same UN that failed to condemn Hamas for the October 7th attack. No, that that not really it. The playbook is the admonishment(s) on lacking emotional control and having no critical thinking skills for anyone who disagrees with his POV. The last one ironically for thinking the Mr Fafo videos are fake.

C69 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:38 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 am

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:30 pm Meh lies

Straight out ofthe Guy Smiley Playbook




Jesus Wept

Thinking the UN is impartial? The same UN that failed to condemn Hamas for the October 7th attack. No, that that not really it. The playbook is the admonishment(s) on lacking emotional control and having no critical thinking skills for anyone who disagrees with his POV. The last one ironically for thinking the Mr Fafo videos are fake.

Now you are lying. The UN has repeatedly condemned the terrorist attack of October 7th.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 am

C69 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:38 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 am

Thinking the UN is impartial? The same UN that failed to condemn Hamas for the October 7th attack. No, that that not really it. The playbook is the admonishment(s) on lacking emotional control and having no critical thinking skills for anyone who disagrees with his POV. The last one ironically for thinking the Mr Fafo videos are fake.

Now you are lying. The UN has repeatedly condemned the terrorist attack of October 7th.

Has there been a voted on resolution stating that?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:02 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 am

C69 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:38 am

Now you are lying. The UN has repeatedly condemned the terrorist attack of October 7th.

Has there been a voted on resolution stating that?

There was a resolution requiring all parties to abide by international law regarding civilians and there was another one calling for the release of the hostages and safe passage for civilians. Meanwhile the General Secretary has made several statements condemning the attacks on October the 7th, the first public one was on the 9th of October (I think it was the 9th, I've just read about seven documents, so it may have been on the 11th)

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:05 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:02 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 am

Has there been a voted on resolution stating that?

There was a resolution requiring all parties to abide by international law regarding civilians and there was another one calling for the release of the hostages and safe passage for civilians. Meanwhile the General Secretary has made several statements condemning the attacks on October the 7th, the first public one was on the 9th of October (I think it was the 9th, I've just read about seven documents, so it may have been on the 11th)

One of those attempted to have an amendment inserted, condemning the Hamas attack on civilians. The amendment failed to pass.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:09 pm There will political reasons for that, I am no fan of the UN, not after what they did to Rwanda, but when the General Secretary speaks I get the feeling that he does so without a lot of political manoeuvrings that go on to pass or stop resolutions.


Out of interest, would you want an amendment inserted condemning the attacks on Palestinian civilians?

Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:25 pm wonder what those reasons could be, maybe the same ones that caused the UN to pass the resultion condeming Zionism as racism

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:27 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:09 pm There will political reasons for that, I am no fan of the UN, not after what they did to Rwanda, but when the General Secretary speaks I get the feeling that he does so without a lot of political manoeuvrings that go on to pass or stop resolutions.


Out of interest, would you want an amendment inserted condemning the attacks on Palestinian civilians?

There's already been a lot of resolutions about Israel attacking civilians. And I wish the Israeli government would treat the settler terrorism in the same way they treat the Palestinian terrorism.

Just reading one of the resolutions from the 26th, and they want Israel to rescind the evacuation order from the north of the Gaza strip. I'm sorry, but if there's a war going on, why is it a bad thing to request that civilians get out of the area you plan on fighting in?

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:15 pm Just realised that the UN doesn't recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

Wonder if it's because they're also a government, or if a resolution failed to pass etc. They do recognise terrorist organisations in general.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:34 pm The hospital thing does amuse me. Gone from Hamas aren't there, doctors stating there no Hamas activity, to there are no tunnels, to there's no command centre, each time as evidence is released, whether video of tunnels or hostages being dragged through the hospital itself. Israel have now breached the door and first images seem to be showing a tunnel with rooms coming off.