The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Big D]

If I were selecting front rows for the RWC then, assuming no injuries, they would now be:

vs. SA Schoeman/Turner/Fagerson (bench Suz/Ashman/Nel)
vs. Tonga Bhatti/Brown/Walker (Schoeman/Turner/Fagerson)
vs. Romania Bhatti/Brown/Walker (Suz/Ashman/Nel)
vs. Ireland Schoeman/Turner/Fagerson (bench Suz/Ashman/Nel)

Brown's in there because he provides cover at 7 as well as hooker.

Given he have mostly a week between games I am not sure we will need Brown covering 7. He isn't as good as at least 4 options who can cover 7, 2 of those can play elsewhere across the backrow.

[charltom]

And on Saturday's team - a bit miffed that Matt Fagerson has been dropped to the bench, not because Dempsey doesn't deserve it, but because Mish comes in on very little recent form.

I would have picked Horne over Price as well, his game would be perfect against Italy in the final quarter.

But great to see Healy and Redpath among the subs. Let's hope Kinghorn kicks well!

Agreed on all counts. Crosbie for Watson and I'd be happy.

[Yr Alban]

If I were selecting front rows for the RWC then, assuming no injuries, they would now be:

vs. SA Schoeman/Turner/Fagerson (bench Suz/Ashman/Nel)
vs. Tonga Bhatti/Brown/Walker (Schoeman/Turner/Fagerson)
vs. Romania Bhatti/Brown/Walker (Suz/Ashman/Nel)
vs. Ireland Schoeman/Turner/Fagerson (bench Suz/Ashman/Nel)

Brown's in there because he provides cover at 7 as well as hooker.

Right now I’d be delighted if Brown was dropped from the squad altogether. I think he had a massive hand in us losing our last two games. I’d have Dave Cherry in there instead. He might not be as good in the loose, but his throwing is probably the best we have.

[charltom]

I don't disagree with you; just trying to think like Toonie.

[Biffer]

If I were selecting front rows for the RWC then, assuming no injuries, they would now be:

vs. SA Schoeman/Turner/Fagerson (bench Suz/Ashman/Nel)
vs. Tonga Bhatti/Brown/Walker (Schoeman/Turner/Fagerson)
vs. Romania Bhatti/Brown/Walker (Suz/Ashman/Nel)
vs. Ireland Schoeman/Turner/Fagerson (bench Suz/Ashman/Nel)

Brown's in there because he provides cover at 7 as well as hooker.

Right now I’d be delighted if Brown was dropped from the squad altogether. I think he had a massive hand in us losing our last two games. I’d have Dave Cherry in there instead. He might not be as good in the loose, but his throwing is probably the best we have.

Absolutely, he has the best darts of anyone right now. His time in Nice(?) worked very well for him.

[Blackmac]

You are being pedantic, in the documentary I referenced the rowers were supposed to reach certain times to get into the British squad

Yeah, that's not something that would happen. As I said, whilst it's a marker for their training regime, indoor rowing ability does not automatically translate to rowing. Neither Pinsent or Redgrave were great on the ergo.
When I joined the polis, the current Scottish men's sculling champion was on my training intake. I could beat him on the ergo quite comfortably so he persuaded me to go go to his rowing club in Glasgow. Needless to say I was appalling on the water.

Whit, the British rowing team coaches wouldn't set minimum standards for indoor training for their rowers?

No they wouldn't. They would set benchmark times to see how their training schedules were improving over the course of the training set but it's just ridiculous to suggest they would select someone for the squad based purely on their indoor rowing abilities.

[Blackmac]

Actuall Pinsent was very good on the Ergo

He held the British 2K open record for 11 years - so not too shabby

Redgrave also held the 2K world record in 1996 for the 30-39 Hwt divison in 5.46.8 ( only a couple of seconds behind Greg Serle in the 19-29 Hwt divison)

Not as dominant as you would expect though. Twice when I entered the BIRC, they competed and only got minor places. I think the year I placed 16th, neither made the podium and I don't think either ever came close to winning the worlds. I might be wrong as it's a long time ago. What I can state is that they were getting picked on their rowing abilities not their ergo abilities and it's ridiculous to argue otherwise.

[Tichtheid]

Yeah, that's not something that would happen. As I said, whilst it's a marker for their training regime, indoor rowing ability does not automatically translate to rowing. Neither Pinsent or Redgrave were great on the ergo.
When I joined the polis, the current Scottish men's sculling champion was on my training intake. I could beat him on the ergo quite comfortably so he persuaded me to go go to his rowing club in Glasgow. Needless to say I was appalling on the water.

Whit, the British rowing team coaches wouldn't set minimum standards for indoor training for their rowers?

No they wouldn't. They would set benchmark times to see how their training schedules were improving over the course of the training set but it's just ridiculous to suggest they would select someone for the squad based purely on their indoor rowing abilities.

The would be ridiculous, but you've invented the "purely on their indoor rowing abilities" part. I did not say that, did I?

The documentary I was talking about is actually on YouTube, this is where they are using indoor rowing as part of the selection process in cutting six down to four for the team

[Blackmac]

Whit, the British rowing team coaches wouldn't set minimum standards for indoor training for their rowers?

No they wouldn't. They would set benchmark times to see how their training schedules were improving over the course of the training set but it's just ridiculous to suggest they would select someone for the squad based purely on their indoor rowing abilities.

The would be ridiculous, but you've invented the "purely on their indoor rowing abilities" part. I did not say that, did I?

The documentary I was talking about is actually on YouTube, this is where they are using indoor rowing as part of the selection process in cutting six down to four for the team

I've seen all these documentaries and yes as I said it is part of the training and selection process for guys that are already at a world class benchmark on the water and would be used to see who is in the best shape, but the discussion started over comments about a rugby player setting times that would be good enough to get him into the GB Olympic squad and that's what I queried and it's completely incorrect that such a figure exists.
Take for example Graham Benton, he was the dominant indoor tower in the UK for nearly two decades and there was never any suggestion that he would be anywhere near the rowing squad. Rowing is an incredibly technical sport where indoor rowing, whilst it requires a decent amount of technique is far more focused on pure physical abilities.

[Blackmac]

Actuall Pinsent was very good on the Ergo

He held the British 2K open record for 11 years - so not too shabby

Redgrave also held the 2K world record in 1996 for the 30-39 Hwt divison in 5.46.8 ( only a couple of seconds behind Greg Serle in the 19-29 Hwt divison)

Not as dominant as you would expect though. Twice when I entered the BIRC, they competed and only got minor places. I think the year I placed 16th, neither made the podium and I don't think either ever came close to winning the worlds. I might be wrong as it's a long time ago. What I can state is that they were getting picked on their rowing abilities not their ergo abilities and it's ridiculous to argue otherwise.

Edit, I see Redgrave did win the worlds in 1991.

[Blackmac]

No they wouldn't. They would set benchmark times to see how their training schedules were improving over the course of the training set but it's just ridiculous to suggest they would select someone for the squad based purely on their indoor rowing abilities.

The would be ridiculous, but you've invented the "purely on their indoor rowing abilities" part. I did not say that, did I?

The documentary I was talking about is actually on YouTube, this is where they are using indoor rowing as part of the selection process in cutting six down to four for the team

I've seen all these documentaries and yes as I said it is part of the training and selection process for guys that are already at a world class benchmark on the water and would be used to see who is in the best shape, but the discussion started over comments about a rugby player setting times that would be good enough to get him into the GB Olympic squad and that's what I queried and it's completely incorrect that such a figure exists.
Take for example Graham Benton, he was the dominant indoor rower in the UK for nearly two decades and there was never any suggestion that he would be anywhere near the rowing squad. Rowing is an incredibly technical sport where indoor rowing, whilst it requires a decent amount of technique is far more focused on pure physical abilities.

[Tichtheid]

No they wouldn't. They would set benchmark times to see how their training schedules were improving over the course of the training set but it's just ridiculous to suggest they would select someone for the squad based purely on their indoor rowing abilities.

The would be ridiculous, but you've invented the "purely on their indoor rowing abilities" part. I did not say that, did I?

The documentary I was talking about is actually on YouTube, this is where they are using indoor rowing as part of the selection process in cutting six down to four for the team

I've seen all these documentaries and yes as I said it is part of the training and selection process for guys that are already at a world class benchmark on the water and would be used to see who is in the best shape, but the discussion started over comments about a rugby player setting times that would be good enough to get him into the GB Olympic squad and that's what I queried and it's completely incorrect that such a figure exists.
Take for example Graham Benton, he was the dominant indoor tower in the UK for nearly two decades and there was never any suggestion that he would be anywhere near the rowing squad. Rowing is an incredibly technical sport where indoor rowing, whilst it requires a decent amount of technique is far more focused on pure physical abilities.

It was a documentary shown 23 years ago and I might not have remembered it verbatim, ffs.

I said that I'd read Gray had posted times that were in the ballpark for those expected by the British Olympic team, something you later expanded on by saying that Martin Johnson had done similar.

You'll have to show where I said that was the only selection criterion, though.

[Blackmac]

The would be ridiculous, but you've invented the "purely on their indoor rowing abilities" part. I did not say that, did I?

The documentary I was talking about is actually on YouTube, this is where they are using indoor rowing as part of the selection process in cutting six down to four for the team

I've seen all these documentaries and yes as I said it is part of the training and selection process for guys that are already at a world class benchmark on the water and would be used to see who is in the best shape, but the discussion started over comments about a rugby player setting times that would be good enough to get him into the GB Olympic squad and that's what I queried and it's completely incorrect that such a figure exists.
Take for example Graham Benton, he was the dominant indoor tower in the UK for nearly two decades and there was never any suggestion that he would be anywhere near the rowing squad. Rowing is an incredibly technical sport where indoor rowing, whilst it requires a decent amount of technique is far more focused on pure physical abilities.

It was a documentary shown 23 years ago and I might not have remembered it verbatim, ffs.

I said that I'd read Gray had posted times that were in the ballpark for those expected by the British Olympic team, something you later expanded on by saying that Martin Johnson had done similar.

You'll have to show where I said that was the only selection criterion, though.

I didn't suggest anywhere you said it was the only selection criteria, that has evolved through the discussion and I think you are now the one being pedantic.
I merely took issue with the fact that you said he had reached the Olympic qualifying mark and I pointed out there was no such thing as an indoor rowing qualifying mark as ability on an ergo does not necessarily translate to ability on the water. I myself was the perfect example of that back in the day. You failed to accept me pointing that out.

A good rower will always be a decent indoor rower but not the other way around . As Charltom, who also too issue with your comment said, the rowing squad is ultimately picked on their ability to move a boat through water and there are multiple other factors at play other than ergo ability.

I said Johnson was a decent indoor rower but never suggested he would make the GB rowing squad.

[inactionman]

Out of interest, what would it take for a great indoor/ergo rower to become a great on-water rower?

I've tried rowing and caught more crabs than a Newlyn fishing fleet, but it didn't strike me as being an impossible skill to master.

Is it just more difficult with a crew, with e.g. coordination of both stroke and effort, or is it a case that technique breaks down with fatigue and it's a different type of fitness to keep good form?

[charltom]

Yep, I also "took issue with the fact that you said he had reached the Olympic qualifying mark". There isn't an indoor rowing mark that would qualify you for the Oly squad.

I was decent(ish) in a boat but hated the erg and found it much, much harder to motivate myself for that than for killing myself for a crew.

[Tichtheid]

I didn't suggest anywhere you said it was the only selection criteria,

You said this in answer to a post of mine

They would set benchmark times to see how their training schedules were improving over the course of the training set but it's just ridiculous to suggest they would select someone for the squad based purely on their indoor rowing abilities.

[Blackmac]

Out of interest, what would it take for a great indoor/ergo rower to become a great on-water rower?

I've tried rowing and caught more crabs than a Newlyn fishing fleet, but it didn't strike me as being an impossible skill to master.

Is it just more difficult with a crew, with e.g. coordination of both stroke and effort, or is it a case that technique breaks down with fatigue and it's a different type of fitness to keep good form?

I don't think you are giving the technique enough respect. Being millimetres out on the stroke will make a massive difference to your efficiency, then you have got to maintain that form over a distance through developing fatigue and different water and weather conditions. Hard enough as a single sculler but add that into a crew and you have to maintain perfect timing with your crew mates.
Jump onto YouTube and have a look at the different ergo techniques of some of the top rowers against Graham Benton who is probably the best ever indoor tower not to be a world class rower. It's striking how much smoother their technique is compared to Benton who was just a beast of an athlete.

[Blackmac]

I didn't suggest anywhere you said it was the only selection criteria,

You said this in answer to a post of mine

They would set benchmark times to see how their training schedules were improving over the course of the training set but it's just ridiculous to suggest they would select someone for the squad based purely on their indoor rowing abilities.

For fuck sake man, let's just be straight about it and say your initial post about an indoor rowing Olympic marks was just bollocks but you have scored a very minor point here. Congratulations you were clearly correct then in everything you said. Happy.

[inactionman]

Out of interest, what would it take for a great indoor/ergo rower to become a great on-water rower?

I've tried rowing and caught more crabs than a Newlyn fishing fleet, but it didn't strike me as being an impossible skill to master.

Is it just more difficult with a crew, with e.g. coordination of both stroke and effort, or is it a case that technique breaks down with fatigue and it's a different type of fitness to keep good form?

I don't think you are giving the technique enough respect. Being millimetres out on the stroke will make a massive difference to your efficiency, then you have got to maintain that form over a distance through developing fatigue and different water and weather conditions. Hard enough as a single sculler but add that into a crew and you have to maintain perfect timing with your crew mates.
Jump onto YouTube and have a look at the different ergo techniques of some of the top rowers against Graham Benton who is probably the best ever indoor tower not to be a world class rower. It's striking how much smoother their technique is compared to Benton who was just a beast of an athlete.

I can certainly appreciate there's a technique, but it's a single, set, repeated technique which I would have thought could be learnt relatively quickly given suitable coaching, especially in light of the years it takes to develop the physique and physiology required to be a high-level rower. I appreciate technique breaks down with fatigue, which is a double-whammy from a performance perspective, and that might be what would differentiate a very, very good on-water rower from an Olympic rower?

I suppose it could also be the case that ergo techniques are out of kilter, and its very tricky to 'unlearn' and re-learn more appropriate technique for on-water - I've certainly found this in many sports where relatively home-grown techniques in adult practitioners couldn't readily be changed - tennis players and volleys being a specific and consistent example, for some reason.

I'm labouring the point a touch as it's interesting but I'd never actually put much thought to it before.

[Tichtheid]

I didn't suggest anywhere you said it was the only selection criteria,

You said this in answer to a post of mine

They would set benchmark times to see how their training schedules were improving over the course of the training set but it's just ridiculous to suggest they would select someone for the squad based purely on their indoor rowing abilities.

For fuck sake man, let's just be straight about it and say your initial post about an indoor rowing Olympic marks was just bollocks but you have scored a very minor point here. Congratulations you were clearly correct then in everything you said. Happy.

When Charlton said he wasn't sure what I meant by an Olympic qualifying time I said this

It was just something I remember reading in the (I think) Scotsman, that Gray had been posting times that were in the ball park for those needed by British Olympic rowing team on the machines, from around the time he was in the Lions squad

Did you ever see the documentary on Steve Redgrave training to go for that momentous effort in Sidney? He practically had to be shovelled up after training on the machine, and he was managing his diabetes at the time!

Years later there was similar footage of Chris Hoy falling off the static bike and heaving his guts up. I also remember reading that Judy Murray can't watch Andy train as the pain he goes through upsets her.

The commitment needed to compete at that elite level is quite something

You chose the focus of this exchange

[Yr Alban]

How the hell did we get into an argument about (checks notes) indoor rowing?

[Big D]

How the hell did we get into an argument about (checks notes) indoor rowing?

Fucked if I know!

[Blackmac]

You said this in answer to a post of mine

For fuck sake man, let's just be straight about it and say your initial post about an indoor rowing Olympic marks was just bollocks but you have scored a very minor point here. Congratulations you were clearly correct then in everything you said. Happy.

When Charlton said he wasn't sure what I meant by an Olympic qualifying time I said this

It was just something I remember reading in the (I think) Scotsman, that Gray had been posting times that were in the ball park for those needed by British Olympic rowing team on the machines, from around the time he was in the Lions squad

Did you ever see the documentary on Steve Redgrave training to go for that momentous effort in Sidney? He practically had to be shovelled up after training on the machine, and he was managing his diabetes at the time!

Years later there was similar footage of Chris Hoy falling off the static bike and heaving his guts up. I also remember reading that Judy Murray can't watch Andy train as the pain he goes through upsets her.

The commitment needed to compete at that elite level is quite something

You chose the focus of this exchange

I didn't reference that exchange at all. As I said before and I can't comprehend how you can suggest otherwise, I merely pointed out that there was no such thing as an Olympic qualifying mark on an indoor rower and explained why. I wasn't being argumentative or belittling in any way, just trying to be informative about a topic I have a decent level of knowledge about. You took issue with that and chose to double down by stating the documentary stated that the rowers had to reach a stated ergo time to be selected. Again wrong so I pointed out they didn't and again tried to explain why. You clearly didn't like being corrected and after suggesting I was being pedantic have taken pedantry to an extreme level. I'll leave it there.

[Tichtheid]

How the hell did we get into an argument about (checks notes) indoor rowing?

Fucked if I know!

It stopped being about rowing a few pages back.


There is an unpleasantness that sometimes surfaces here, I don't know if it's a hangover from PR, I only ever read that place a few times and it was awful.

The exchanges here sometimes leave me feeling really quite down and the feeling can still be there after I close the computer, it sucks all the fun out of it.

I think it's time for a break.

[Dogbert]

For fuck sake man, let's just be straight about it and say your initial post about an indoor rowing Olympic marks was just bollocks but you have scored a very minor point here. Congratulations you were clearly correct then in everything you said. Happy.

When Charlton said he wasn't sure what I meant by an Olympic qualifying time I said this

It was just something I remember reading in the (I think) Scotsman, that Gray had been posting times that were in the ball park for those needed by British Olympic rowing team on the machines, from around the time he was in the Lions squad

Did you ever see the documentary on Steve Redgrave training to go for that momentous effort in Sidney? He practically had to be shovelled up after training on the machine, and he was managing his diabetes at the time!

Years later there was similar footage of Chris Hoy falling off the static bike and heaving his guts up. I also remember reading that Judy Murray can't watch Andy train as the pain he goes through upsets her.

The commitment needed to compete at that elite level is quite something

You chose the focus of this exchange

I didn't reference that exchange at all. As I said before and I can't comprehend how you can suggest otherwise, I merely pointed out that there was no such thing as an Olympic qualifying mark on an indoor rower and explained why. I wasn't being argumentative or belittling in any way, just trying to be informative about a topic I have a decent level of knowledge about. You took issue with that and chose to double down by stating the documentary stated that the rowers had to reach a stated ergo time to be selected. Again wrong so I pointed out they didn't and again tried to explain why. You clearly didn't like being corrected and after suggesting I was being pedantic have taken pedantry to an extreme level. I'll leave it there.

And yet you stated that "Neither Pinsent or Redgrave were great on the ergo" which is utter tosh - I will leave it there

[Blackmac]

How the hell did we get into an argument about (checks notes) indoor rowing?

Fucked if I know!

It stopped being about rowing a few pages back.


There is an unpleasantness that sometimes surfaces here, I don't know if it's a hangover from PR, I only ever read that place a few times and it was awful.

The exchanges here sometimes leave me feeling really quite down and the feeling can still be there after I close the computer, it sucks all the fun out of it.

I think it's time for a break.

I'm sorry to hear that but I don't think either of us have been unpleasant in any way shape or form. We have disagreed in a fairly amicable way. It's an online, anonymous internet forum, that's what happens. The discussion has only ever been about rowing for me. I might have found your arguments fairly irritating but I'm sure we all do every now and then as we will all inevitably have differing opinions about many things. I don't think it unfair to suggest that you yourself are not slow in coming forward when you feel the need.

[Blackmac]

When Charlton said he wasn't sure what I meant by an Olympic qualifying time I said this




You chose the focus of this exchange

I didn't reference that exchange at all. As I said before and I can't comprehend how you can suggest otherwise, I merely pointed out that there was no such thing as an Olympic qualifying mark on an indoor rower and explained why. I wasn't being argumentative or belittling in any way, just trying to be informative about a topic I have a decent level of knowledge about. You took issue with that and chose to double down by stating the documentary stated that the rowers had to reach a stated ergo time to be selected. Again wrong so I pointed out they didn't and again tried to explain why. You clearly didn't like being corrected and after suggesting I was being pedantic have taken pedantry to an extreme level. I'll leave it there.

And yet you stated that "Neither Pinsent or Redgrave were great on the ergo" which is utter tosh - I will leave it there

Yeah, was a poor example and inaccurate but my overall point stands.

[Jock42]

So, Smudger gets a start at FB? This must be his first 6N start?

[Yr Alban]

So, Smudger gets a start at FB? This must be his first 6N start?

Definitely.

[robmatic]

So, Smudger gets a start at FB? This must be his first 6N start?

Hope he does well, he's looked impressive whenever I've seen him play for Glasgow.

[Slick]

So, Smudger gets a start at FB? This must be his first 6N start?

Hope he does well, he's looked impressive whenever I've seen him play for Glasgow.

I’m a big fan, always looks very classy, really hope he kicks on

Edit: genuinely think he could be a Lions contender given enough games

[robmatic]

In other news, the SRU are apparently waving their chequebook at Sione's little brother.

[Blackmac]

In other news, the SRU are apparently waving their chequebook at Sione's little brother.

Getting slightly uncomfortable with this now.,

[Big D]

In other news, the SRU are apparently waving their chequebook at Sione's little brother.

He's eligible so we need to look at him.

[Yr Alban]

In other news, the SRU are apparently waving their chequebook at Sione's little brother.

He's eligible so we need to look at him.

This, sadly. It’s not about being able to field a decent XV any more. It’s about the depth, so you can deal with the inevitable parade of injuries without a sharp drop-off in quality. It’s quite possible for us to field a competitive 23 of Scottish born players, but that depends on all of them being available at once.

We’ve just seen what happens in a tight game if your replacements aren’t at the same standard as your starters. So if we want to stay relevant and competitive, we need as much depth as we can get, and pursuing an aggressive SQ policy is part of that. It would be nice if we could go back the the amateur era, but we can’t.

[Big D]

In other news, the SRU are apparently waving their chequebook at Sione's little brother.

He's eligible so we need to look at him.

This, sadly. It’s not about being able to field a decent XV any more. It’s about the depth, so you can deal with the inevitable parade of injuries without a sharp drop-off in quality. It’s quite possible for us to field a competitive 23 of Scottish born players, but that depends on all of them being available at once.

We’ve just seen what happens in a tight game if your replacements aren’t at the same standard as your starters. So if we want to stay relevant and competitive, we need as much depth as we can get, and pursuing an aggressive SQ policy is part of that. It would be nice if we could go back the the amateur era, but we can’t.

Players are either eligible or not. I think we either abide by the rules or put some unnecessary restrictions in place. It is a slippery slope when the argument becomes about how Scottish/Irish/Kiwi/[insert nationality here] someone is.

There is no doubt the Tuipulotu brothers, Maitland etc probably felt less Scottish than say Hamish Watson but all are equally eligible.

The Scottish people are a mobile population as seen by our cohort on here living in various parts of the globe but particularly within the UK. I am not against a tightening of the eligibility laws to parents but as it stands I have no issue asking eligible players to play s long as the SRU are trying to fix domestic standards.

[westport]

Staying in Edinburgh!
Hooker Adam McBurney pens a new one-year extension, keeping him at the club for 2023/24.

[inactionman]

Hold onto your hats, you lucky sods.

The Borders Book Festival have announced a number of speakers for the 2023 event in June - including Mr William David Charles Carling OBE

[SaintK]

Hold onto your hats, you lucky sods.

The Borders Book Festival have announced a number of speakers for the 2023 event in June - including Mr William David Charles Carling OBE

He's a pretty good value speaker.

[inactionman]

Hold onto your hats, you lucky sods.

The Borders Book Festival have announced a number of speakers for the 2023 event in June - including Mr William David Charles Carling OBE

He's a pretty good value speaker.

I'm not sure book festivals are quite his natural habitat - I've always associated him with boozy after-dinner banter over a few ports and brandies, but may be doing him a disservice.