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I would think the 1st choice back 3 and 10 will be between Boff, Graham, Duhan, Healy and Kinghorn.Jock42 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:03 pmBut probably still ahead of Savala (for me he is anyway).
Looks ok to me, Given Steyn can cover 13 very adequately I'd maybe leave Harris out.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:23 pm So 33 men for the RWC. Last time it was 31 and a 17/14 split.
I'll have a bash at the squad with an 18/15 split based on current form and the expectation those returning from injury will be decent:
Props (2019:3/2023: 6) - Nel, Fagerson, Walker, Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti
Hooker (3/3) - Turner, Cherry, Ashman - Cherry is our best line out hooker IMO. Likely to to Brown over Cherry.
2nd Row (4/4) - R.Gray, Gilchrist, Cummings, Skinner (expect J Gray over Skinner though)
Back Row (5/5) - Ritchie (c), Fagerson, Dempsey, Darge, Crosbie/Bayliss. I don't think we need to out and out 7s in the squad and Crosbie, if going 19/14 then Watson would be in and one of Steyn/Smith drop out.
SH (3/3) - White, Price and Horne
FH (2/2) - Russell, Hastings
Centres (4/4) - Tuipulotu, Jones, Redpath, Harris
Back 3 (4/5) - Hogg, Duhan, Graham, Steyn, Smith
Utility (1/1) - Kinghorn
Bolter - young Tuipulotu.
I think you’ll have five locks and four back three (plus Kinghorn).Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:23 pm So 33 men for the RWC. Last time it was 31 and a 17/14 split.
I'll have a bash at the squad with an 18/15 split based on current form and the expectation those returning from injury will be decent:
Props (2019:3/2023: 6) - Nel, Fagerson, Walker, Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti
Hooker (3/3) - Turner, Cherry, Ashman - Cherry is our best line out hooker IMO. Likely to to Brown over Cherry.
2nd Row (4/4) - R.Gray, Gilchrist, Cummings, Skinner (expect J Gray over Skinner though)
Back Row (5/5) - Ritchie (c), Fagerson, Dempsey, Darge, Crosbie/Bayliss. I don't think we need to out and out 7s in the squad and Crosbie, if going 19/14 then Watson would be in and one of Steyn/Smith drop out.
SH (3/3) - White, Price and Horne
FH (2/2) - Russell, Hastings
Centres (4/4) - Tuipulotu, Jones, Redpath, Harris
Back 3 (4/5) - Hogg, Duhan, Graham, Steyn, Smith
Utility (1/1) - Kinghorn
Bolter - young Tuipulotu.
Harris or another 13 is a stick on to go. There is no way Townsend would risk Steyn at 13.Wylie Coyote wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:42 pmLooks ok to me, Given Steyn can cover 13 very adequately I'd maybe leave Harris out.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:23 pm So 33 men for the RWC. Last time it was 31 and a 17/14 split.
I'll have a bash at the squad with an 18/15 split based on current form and the expectation those returning from injury will be decent:
Props (2019:3/2023: 6) - Nel, Fagerson, Walker, Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti
Hooker (3/3) - Turner, Cherry, Ashman - Cherry is our best line out hooker IMO. Likely to to Brown over Cherry.
2nd Row (4/4) - R.Gray, Gilchrist, Cummings, Skinner (expect J Gray over Skinner though)
Back Row (5/5) - Ritchie (c), Fagerson, Dempsey, Darge, Crosbie/Bayliss. I don't think we need to out and out 7s in the squad and Crosbie, if going 19/14 then Watson would be in and one of Steyn/Smith drop out.
SH (3/3) - White, Price and Horne
FH (2/2) - Russell, Hastings
Centres (4/4) - Tuipulotu, Jones, Redpath, Harris
Back 3 (4/5) - Hogg, Duhan, Graham, Steyn, Smith
Utility (1/1) - Kinghorn
Bolter - young Tuipulotu.
I expect Brown, Gray and Watson all to go but when naming the squad it is easy to see how they could miss out. I like Crosbie but Bayliss offers a versatility that would allow both Dempsey and Fagerson to sit out the Romania game if they need it after SA and Tonga games which we would expect to very physical. 5 back row really isn't a lot if taking two specialist 7s so that's why Watson misses out.Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:49 pmI think you’ll have five locks and four back three (plus Kinghorn).Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:23 pm So 33 men for the RWC. Last time it was 31 and a 17/14 split.
I'll have a bash at the squad with an 18/15 split based on current form and the expectation those returning from injury will be decent:
Props (2019:3/2023: 6) - Nel, Fagerson, Walker, Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti
Hooker (3/3) - Turner, Cherry, Ashman - Cherry is our best line out hooker IMO. Likely to to Brown over Cherry.
2nd Row (4/4) - R.Gray, Gilchrist, Cummings, Skinner (expect J Gray over Skinner though)
Back Row (5/5) - Ritchie (c), Fagerson, Dempsey, Darge, Crosbie/Bayliss. I don't think we need to out and out 7s in the squad and Crosbie, if going 19/14 then Watson would be in and one of Steyn/Smith drop out.
SH (3/3) - White, Price and Horne
FH (2/2) - Russell, Hastings
Centres (4/4) - Tuipulotu, Jones, Redpath, Harris
Back 3 (4/5) - Hogg, Duhan, Graham, Steyn, Smith
Utility (1/1) - Kinghorn
Bolter - young Tuipulotu.
Third TH is a big question, that’s an open spot for someone to put their hand up.
I agree about the hookers but Townsend seems stuck on Brown for reasons I don’t understand.
Crosbie has to go if he continues playing like he has.
Why not? He used to play there all the time!Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:00 pmHarris or another 13 is a stick on to go. There is no way Townsend would risk Steyn at 13.Wylie Coyote wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:42 pmLooks ok to me, Given Steyn can cover 13 very adequately I'd maybe leave Harris out.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:23 pm So 33 men for the RWC. Last time it was 31 and a 17/14 split.
I'll have a bash at the squad with an 18/15 split based on current form and the expectation those returning from injury will be decent:
Props (2019:3/2023: 6) - Nel, Fagerson, Walker, Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti
Hooker (3/3) - Turner, Cherry, Ashman - Cherry is our best line out hooker IMO. Likely to to Brown over Cherry.
2nd Row (4/4) - R.Gray, Gilchrist, Cummings, Skinner (expect J Gray over Skinner though)
Back Row (5/5) - Ritchie (c), Fagerson, Dempsey, Darge, Crosbie/Bayliss. I don't think we need to out and out 7s in the squad and Crosbie, if going 19/14 then Watson would be in and one of Steyn/Smith drop out.
SH (3/3) - White, Price and Horne
FH (2/2) - Russell, Hastings
Centres (4/4) - Tuipulotu, Jones, Redpath, Harris
Back 3 (4/5) - Hogg, Duhan, Graham, Steyn, Smith
Utility (1/1) - Kinghorn
Bolter - young Tuipulotu.
Agree, Harris is nailed on.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:00 pmHarris or another 13 is a stick on to go. There is no way Townsend would risk Steyn at 13.Wylie Coyote wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:42 pmLooks ok to me, Given Steyn can cover 13 very adequately I'd maybe leave Harris out.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:23 pm So 33 men for the RWC. Last time it was 31 and a 17/14 split.
I'll have a bash at the squad with an 18/15 split based on current form and the expectation those returning from injury will be decent:
Props (2019:3/2023: 6) - Nel, Fagerson, Walker, Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti
Hooker (3/3) - Turner, Cherry, Ashman - Cherry is our best line out hooker IMO. Likely to to Brown over Cherry.
2nd Row (4/4) - R.Gray, Gilchrist, Cummings, Skinner (expect J Gray over Skinner though)
Back Row (5/5) - Ritchie (c), Fagerson, Dempsey, Darge, Crosbie/Bayliss. I don't think we need to out and out 7s in the squad and Crosbie, if going 19/14 then Watson would be in and one of Steyn/Smith drop out.
SH (3/3) - White, Price and Horne
FH (2/2) - Russell, Hastings
Centres (4/4) - Tuipulotu, Jones, Redpath, Harris
Back 3 (4/5) - Hogg, Duhan, Graham, Steyn, Smith
Utility (1/1) - Kinghorn
Bolter - young Tuipulotu.
He may be but I am not sure. This year has shown the transformative effect of having a 13 who can actually attack, indeed I think it helped Finn's game knowing that he didn't need to do it all himself as in the past with Harris and to a lesser extent Johnson clogging up our attack. We didn't miss Harris that much in defence either so I have to ask what's the point?Slick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:53 pmAgree, Harris is nailed on.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:00 pmHarris or another 13 is a stick on to go. There is no way Townsend would risk Steyn at 13.Wylie Coyote wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:42 pm
Looks ok to me, Given Steyn can cover 13 very adequately I'd maybe leave Harris out.
Harris or another centre (McDowell or Bennett) will go. There is plenty of room for 4 centres in the squad.Wylie Coyote wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:22 pmHe may be but I am not sure. This year has shown the transformative effect of having a 13 who can actually attack, indeed I think it helped Finn's game knowing that he didn't need to do it all himself as in the past with Harris and to a lesser extent Johnson clogging up our attack. We didn't miss Harris that much in defence either so I have to ask what's the point?
Would anyone have been comfortable with Steyn at 13 in the 6N? Do we really want Steyn v SA or Ireland if Jones goes lame the morning of the game?charltom wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:44 pmWhy not? He used to play there all the time!Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:00 pmHarris or another 13 is a stick on to go. There is no way Townsend would risk Steyn at 13.Wylie Coyote wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:42 pm
Looks ok to me, Given Steyn can cover 13 very adequately I'd maybe leave Harris out.
For what it's worth, if I were GT, I'd just pick two XVs plus an extra front row.
Skinner allows him to have a fifth lock/sixth back row in one person. And therefore Crosbie, Watson or Darge may miss out, when it might be better for Jonny to.
He may well of course take a 3rd scrum-half, in fact I'd be surprised if he didn't. Ali Price has played a little on the wing for Scotland, hasn't he?
I'd be happy with him there. For me 13 is still his best position.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:00 pmWould anyone have been comfortable with Steyn at 13 in the 6N? Do we really want Steyn v SA or Ireland if Jones goes lame the morning of the game?charltom wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:44 pmWhy not? He used to play there all the time!
For what it's worth, if I were GT, I'd just pick two XVs plus an extra front row.
Skinner allows him to have a fifth lock/sixth back row in one person. And therefore Crosbie, Watson or Darge may miss out, when it might be better for Jonny to.
He may well of course take a 3rd scrum-half, in fact I'd be surprised if he didn't. Ali Price has played a little on the wing for Scotland, hasn't he?
There's plenty of space for specialist centres in the squad.
I'm sure TOTM Will correct me but Steyn must have started about 70% of his games on the wing and never started a European game there or started KO match at centre since maybe the 2019 play offs.
Remember also Tuipolutu plays 13 a lot for Glasgow, you could have Redpath 12 Tui 13 if Jones goes down.Big D wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:10 amI'm sure TOTM Will correct me but Steyn must have started about 70% of his games on the wing and never started a European game there or started KO match at centre since maybe the 2019 play offs.
His defence is pretty poor at international level too even though capable of good tackles (one v Ireland from memory). According to the stats on the 6 Nations website he was 21/33 this year and 8/16 last year. ESPN aren't showing the stats for the Australia and Tonga November games.
Stats aren't everything but it would be a needless risk in the world cup to play him at 13 given there are good centres available as options.
Maybe worth noting that in the selection for the last world cup I can only remember one or two difficult decision (Huw Jones), but for this one we are going to have 10 or so capped players who could reasonably expect to be picked, left out.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:00 pmWould anyone have been comfortable with Steyn at 13 in the 6N? Do we really want Steyn v SA or Ireland if Jones goes lame the morning of the game?charltom wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:44 pmWhy not? He used to play there all the time!
For what it's worth, if I were GT, I'd just pick two XVs plus an extra front row.
Skinner allows him to have a fifth lock/sixth back row in one person. And therefore Crosbie, Watson or Darge may miss out, when it might be better for Jonny to.
He may well of course take a 3rd scrum-half, in fact I'd be surprised if he didn't. Ali Price has played a little on the wing for Scotland, hasn't he?
There's plenty of space for specialist centres in the squad.
It's still odd that Franco Smith plays Jones at 12 and Sione at 13, while Toonie does it the other way round - both with excellent results.Wylie Coyote wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:26 amRemember also Tuipolutu plays 13 a lot for Glasgow, you could have Redpath 12 Tui 13 if Jones goes down.Big D wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:10 amI'm sure TOTM Will correct me but Steyn must have started about 70% of his games on the wing and never started a European game there or started KO match at centre since maybe the 2019 play offs.
His defence is pretty poor at international level too even though capable of good tackles (one v Ireland from memory). According to the stats on the 6 Nations website he was 21/33 this year and 8/16 last year. ESPN aren't showing the stats for the Australia and Tonga November games.
Stats aren't everything but it would be a needless risk in the world cup to play him at 13 given there are good centres available as options.
He can, and does well. However that would mean two changes for one injury which is ok off the bench. The reality is if Townsend took 4 centres when he had 31 places then he isn't taking 3 centres when he has 33 spots.Wylie Coyote wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:26 amRemember also Tuipolutu plays 13 a lot for Glasgow, you could have Redpath 12 Tui 13 if Jones goes down.Big D wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:10 amI'm sure TOTM Will correct me but Steyn must have started about 70% of his games on the wing and never started a European game there or started KO match at centre since maybe the 2019 play offs.
His defence is pretty poor at international level too even though capable of good tackles (one v Ireland from memory). According to the stats on the 6 Nations website he was 21/33 this year and 8/16 last year. ESPN aren't showing the stats for the Australia and Tonga November games.
Stats aren't everything but it would be a needless risk in the world cup to play him at 13 given there are good centres available as options.
Are we talking Melrose rather than Knights?
We decided to drive and have a hotel booked for Friday night. The risk of getting stuck was too great at the time.
Reading between the lines it looks like someone invited him to use the facilities to train but the board have said they wouldn't have authorised it and he is definitely not involved in either Melrose or the Knights.Big D wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:53 amAre we talking Melrose rather than Knights?
It is a tricky one, the SRU don't suspend "amateur" players for criminal activity and in time McLean has a right to get back on with his life, but if I was serving on a committee with a player/member being convicted of a criminal offence I would be thinking hard about whether I would want him as a member. I have been in that situation where a membership was revoked.
I'm torn on this one - does a lot come down to an offender's contrition and genuine recognition of the need to change? I'm a firm believer in rehabilitation rather than ostracisation, as I assume many on here are. I'm not blasé to the views of the poor girl whom he abused, but ultimately judgment has been made and sentence has been served and now the rehabilitation begins.Big D wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:53 amAre we talking Melrose rather than Knights?
It is a tricky one, the SRU don't suspend "amateur" players for criminal activity and in time McLean has a right to get back on with his life, but if I was serving on a committee with a player/member being convicted of a criminal offence I would be thinking hard about whether I would want him as a member. I have been in that situation where a membership was revoked.
For me it's the timing really. At least take a year off and do some good things.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:14 amI'm torn on this one - does a lot come down to an offender's contrition and genuine recognition of the need to change? I'm a firm believer in rehabilitation rather than ostracisation, as I assume many on here are. I'm not blasé to the views of the poor girl whom he abused, but ultimately judgment has been made and sentence has been served and now the rehabilitation begins.Big D wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:53 amAre we talking Melrose rather than Knights?
It is a tricky one, the SRU don't suspend "amateur" players for criminal activity and in time McLean has a right to get back on with his life, but if I was serving on a committee with a player/member being convicted of a criminal offence I would be thinking hard about whether I would want him as a member. I have been in that situation where a membership was revoked.
If McLean has taken this on the chin, admitted his wrong (he pleaded guilty IIRC), served his time and committed to change, then I'd entertain the idea of club rugby avenues remaining open to him. Are people's reservations just a timing thing, or is there something more deep-seated?
Although not the same offence, I contrast this to the footballer David Goodwillie, who was by all accounts unrepentant regarding the rape he was found civilly liable for, which indicates a nasty side to his character which remains unchecked (he also has 3 convictions for violent offences) - that's the sort of person you don't want anywhere near your club.
Been sitting there since the start of the pandemic it seems.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:15 amOops. They're not supposed to do that.
eta:
Sailboat yes, large motor vessel, no
Interestingly, that's the ship that Paul Allen (Microsoft co-founder) funded for research
I think he needs to demonstrate the commitment to change. How he does that I wouldn't say but there would be multiple avenues open to him.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:14 amI'm torn on this one - does a lot come down to an offender's contrition and genuine recognition of the need to change? I'm a firm believer in rehabilitation rather than ostracisation, as I assume many on here are. I'm not blasé to the views of the poor girl whom he abused, but ultimately judgment has been made and sentence has been served and now the rehabilitation begins.Big D wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:53 amAre we talking Melrose rather than Knights?
It is a tricky one, the SRU don't suspend "amateur" players for criminal activity and in time McLean has a right to get back on with his life, but if I was serving on a committee with a player/member being convicted of a criminal offence I would be thinking hard about whether I would want him as a member. I have been in that situation where a membership was revoked.
If McLean has taken this on the chin, admitted his wrong (he pleaded guilty IIRC), served his time and committed to change, then I'd entertain the idea of club rugby avenues remaining open to him. Are people's reservations just a timing thing, or is there something more deep-seated?
Although not the same offence, I contrast this to the footballer David Goodwillie, who was by all accounts unrepentant regarding the rape he was found civilly liable for, which indicates a nasty side to his character which remains unchecked (he also has 3 convictions for violent offences) - that's the sort of person you don't want anywhere near your club.
Not really an option for normal folk earning a wage. McLean will not have been on a massive contract and presumably left Warriors/SRU without a parting bag of money. As a young guy, he will probably still be thinking rugby as career choice no. 1.Slick wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:16 amFor me it's the timing really. At least take a year off and do some good things.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:14 amI'm torn on this one - does a lot come down to an offender's contrition and genuine recognition of the need to change? I'm a firm believer in rehabilitation rather than ostracisation, as I assume many on here are. I'm not blasé to the views of the poor girl whom he abused, but ultimately judgment has been made and sentence has been served and now the rehabilitation begins.Big D wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:53 am
Are we talking Melrose rather than Knights?
It is a tricky one, the SRU don't suspend "amateur" players for criminal activity and in time McLean has a right to get back on with his life, but if I was serving on a committee with a player/member being convicted of a criminal offence I would be thinking hard about whether I would want him as a member. I have been in that situation where a membership was revoked.
If McLean has taken this on the chin, admitted his wrong (he pleaded guilty IIRC), served his time and committed to change, then I'd entertain the idea of club rugby avenues remaining open to him. Are people's reservations just a timing thing, or is there something more deep-seated?
Although not the same offence, I contrast this to the footballer David Goodwillie, who was by all accounts unrepentant regarding the rape he was found civilly liable for, which indicates a nasty side to his character which remains unchecked (he also has 3 convictions for violent offences) - that's the sort of person you don't want anywhere near your club.
I'm sure there are other jobs he could do earn a few quid for a year and then try and go back to his no.1 choice. The year is just a number I thought up, but I'd have thought it would be better for everyone, including himself, if he stayed away from rugby for a while before trying to rehabilitate his career.clydecloggie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:12 pmNot really an option for normal folk earning a wage. McLean will not have been on a massive contract and presumably left Warriors/SRU without a parting bag of money. As a young guy, he will probably still be thinking rugby as career choice no. 1.Slick wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:16 amFor me it's the timing really. At least take a year off and do some good things.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:14 am
I'm torn on this one - does a lot come down to an offender's contrition and genuine recognition of the need to change? I'm a firm believer in rehabilitation rather than ostracisation, as I assume many on here are. I'm not blasé to the views of the poor girl whom he abused, but ultimately judgment has been made and sentence has been served and now the rehabilitation begins.
If McLean has taken this on the chin, admitted his wrong (he pleaded guilty IIRC), served his time and committed to change, then I'd entertain the idea of club rugby avenues remaining open to him. Are people's reservations just a timing thing, or is there something more deep-seated?
Although not the same offence, I contrast this to the footballer David Goodwillie, who was by all accounts unrepentant regarding the rape he was found civilly liable for, which indicates a nasty side to his character which remains unchecked (he also has 3 convictions for violent offences) - that's the sort of person you don't want anywhere near your club.
Has he served his sentence? Then he's free to pursue his chosen career. Behave like a dick once more and it's game over, I'd hope.
I thought Prem clubs were no longer allowed to pay players?clydecloggie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:12 pmNot really an option for normal folk earning a wage. McLean will not have been on a massive contract and presumably left Warriors/SRU without a parting bag of money. As a young guy, he will probably still be thinking rugby as career choice no. 1.Slick wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:16 amFor me it's the timing really. At least take a year off and do some good things.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:14 am
I'm torn on this one - does a lot come down to an offender's contrition and genuine recognition of the need to change? I'm a firm believer in rehabilitation rather than ostracisation, as I assume many on here are. I'm not blasé to the views of the poor girl whom he abused, but ultimately judgment has been made and sentence has been served and now the rehabilitation begins.
If McLean has taken this on the chin, admitted his wrong (he pleaded guilty IIRC), served his time and committed to change, then I'd entertain the idea of club rugby avenues remaining open to him. Are people's reservations just a timing thing, or is there something more deep-seated?
Although not the same offence, I contrast this to the footballer David Goodwillie, who was by all accounts unrepentant regarding the rape he was found civilly liable for, which indicates a nasty side to his character which remains unchecked (he also has 3 convictions for violent offences) - that's the sort of person you don't want anywhere near your club.
Has he served his sentence? Then he's free to pursue his chosen career. Behave like a dick once more and it's game over, I'd hope.
Ship himself around the National League in France (below ProD2). He'd get game time at a reasonable level (probably better than premiership), probably get paid a bit and be seen to be rehabilitating himself.westport wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:54 pm Apparently he only had one session with the Southern Knights and the players didn't know anything about him joining in and they made their feelings known and he wasn't invited back.
I am all for rehab but think it was all a bit too soon for him. Perhaps next season or the one after that, as he is still only 22, to play in the national leagues, if anyone would have him.
