NPR

Biffer wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:28 pm Matt Dawson thinks the Lions need more creativity in the backs.

So he would play Farrell at 12.

How do you get paid for shitty opinions like that? asking for a friend.

I will never understand Farrell fans that claim he's creative. Whatever strengths he has (and most of the ones cited by coaches rarely seem to have much to do with pitch performance and make it sound like he's an excellent assistant coach) they do not lie in the attacking side of the game.

He's improved over the years, but he's still very much a conservative, kicking 10 and a shovel it on, no running threat 12.

Of course at the moment, this whole season in fact, he's in poor form to boot.

Even as a big advocate for the Beeb, the way they cling on to rugby pundits well past their relevance or who've never really added anything is a tragic waste of the license fee.

BBC think they need 'big' names to broaden the appeal of their rugby coverage so its normally anyone associated with 2003 or Guscott...all of whom have mostly run out of anything original to say and clearly have no skill at analysing a game.


Re Farrell - he has qualities but I am resigned to the fact that coaches and most fans/press seem to be completely oblivious to his shortcomings as a player. He can have an absolutely shit game for England the pundits will be calling for Ford to be dropped and Farrell moved to ten for the next game.

tc27 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:43 am BBC think they need 'big' names to broaden the appeal of their rugby coverage so its normally anyone associated with 2003 or Guscott...all of whom have mostly run out of anything original to say and clearly have no skill at analysing a game.


Re Farrell - he has qualities but I am resigned to the fact that coaches and most fans/press seem to be completely oblivious to his shortcomings as a player. He can have an absolutely shit game for England the pundits will be calling for Ford to be dropped and Farrell moved to ten for the next game.

I think BBC punditry is more that they are aware that most of their viewers' interest in rugby is pretty skin deep. By and large people who watch the 6N don't watch any other rugby, they want to hear who the big names are, fairly general tactical stuff and then it's a few cliches before the anthems. Your average 6N fan doesn't want to watch a deep dive into scrummaging or line out calls etc.

Yr Alban wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:40 pm On second thoughts, if that team were picked, VdM should keep his place, because it would mean the Lions were actually going to run the ball, and that’s what he is supposed to be there for. Also, Watson was as bad as anyone else yesterday. LRZ would be the other option.

What’s just popped into my head re vdM is that ok the Lions weren’t going to pass the ball to him in a flowing movement across the back line but I don’t think they even tried giving him the ball direct from a scrum. Poor bugger never had a chance to try what he’s good at.

GogLais wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:40 am

Yr Alban wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:40 pm On second thoughts, if that team were picked, VdM should keep his place, because it would mean the Lions were actually going to run the ball, and that’s what he is supposed to be there for. Also, Watson was as bad as anyone else yesterday. LRZ would be the other option.

What’s just popped into my head re vdM is that ok the Lions weren’t going to pass the ball to him in a flowing movement across the back line but I don’t think they even tried giving him the ball direct from a scrum. Poor bugger never had a chance to try what he’s good at.

There was at least one effort to get him the ball off a scrum with a blindside move. He overran it.

Uncle fester wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:03 am

GogLais wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:40 am

Yr Alban wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:40 pm On second thoughts, if that team were picked, VdM should keep his place, because it would mean the Lions were actually going to run the ball, and that’s what he is supposed to be there for. Also, Watson was as bad as anyone else yesterday. LRZ would be the other option.

What’s just popped into my head re vdM is that ok the Lions weren’t going to pass the ball to him in a flowing movement across the back line but I don’t think they even tried giving him the ball direct from a scrum. Poor bugger never had a chance to try what he’s good at.

There was at least one effort to get him the ball off a scrum with a blindside move. He overran it.

Fair enough, your memory’s better than mine.

dpedin wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:18 pm

Yr Alban wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:41 pm

And 1 guest wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:35 pm

What's Smith like as a goal kicker. Not seen much of him but he looks a real talent. Murray can row the boat home with daly and Biggar in the back.
Back row and back 3 we thought Lions were so strong. Looks like several good players is less than a few better ones.
Still think the game plan is all wrong. These players are not untalented, just playing the wrong type of game

Seems pretty good. Kicked 7 conversions in his Lions tour game.

Not entirely sure what Watson has done to retain a place, dropped every ball as well. I would retain Hogg and put Williams on the wing. Daly gets nowhere any team of mine, so Harris at 13. If we are going all out then Finn goes to 10, he can kick the penalties, long range can be kicked by Hogg.

Looks like Sinker won't be on the bench, but he got blasted yesterday so regardless of his Hannibal Lecter impersonation he wouldn't have been picked anyway.

Looks like you pressed "Submit" too soon, was waiting for the bit where you talked about Sutherland getting destroyed in the scrums as well.

dpedin wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:18 pm Not entirely sure what Watson has done to retain a place, dropped every ball as well. I would retain Hogg and put Williams on the wing. Daly gets nowhere any team of mine, so Harris at 13. If we are going all out then Finn goes to 10, he can kick the penalties, long range can be kicked by Hogg.

Seriously? Williams is a pretty ordinary wing and a very good FB. Maybe not the boot of Hogg (and that's going to be why Gatland will probably stick with him) and arguably not as good a counter runner (err...... how much ball has there been to do that?) BUT he is safer under the high ball and can tackle. Hogg out and Williams in would seem to be the easiest of calls.

Watson was a real threat in the 1st test when he was actually passed the ball.

Jock42 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:56 am 20210802_125323.jpg

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:10 pm

dpedin wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:18 pm Not entirely sure what Watson has done to retain a place, dropped every ball as well. I would retain Hogg and put Williams on the wing. Daly gets nowhere any team of mine, so Harris at 13. If we are going all out then Finn goes to 10, he can kick the penalties, long range can be kicked by Hogg.

Seriously? Williams is a pretty ordinary wing and a very good FB. Maybe not the boot of Hogg (and that's going to be why Gatland will probably stick with him) and arguably not as good a counter runner (err...... how much ball has there been to do that?) BUT he is safer under the high ball and can tackle. Hogg out and Williams in would seem to be the easiest of calls.

Watson was a real threat in the 1st test when he was actually passed the ball.

Any of our back 3 are a threat when they get the ball, but the ball didn't get past Biggar who passed 3 times in total in the match! Arguably VdM is the biggest threat of the three and makes the most yards with ball in hand. Watson was as poor as the rest in the 2nd test and dropped every ball that went his way, he dropped a few in the first test as well and most of SA attacks went down his wing in that game. He mad a few yards with ball in hand in his own 22 but that was about it.

I actually like Watson as a player - the problem isn't the players in our back 3 its the game plan we have which is poory executed and results in our back 3 being bombarded with high balls and defenders at the same time with little support and back up. They end up being the fall guys for a crap team display.

VDM was embarrassed under the high ball, got away with a dangerous lifting tackle, kicked someone to get yellow carded, and carried the ball once

I really don't think anyone is going to pay attention to a defence of his personal performance, given just how much his head went

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:59 pm VDM was embarrassed under the high ball, got away with a dangerous lifting tackle, kicked someone to get yellow carded, and carried the ball once

I really don't think anyone is going to pay attention to a defence of his personal performance, given just how much his head went

The attitude of the sweaties has been an embarrassment tbf.

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:59 pm VDM was embarrassed under the high ball, got away with a dangerous lifting tackle, kicked someone to get yellow carded, and carried the ball once

I really don't think anyone is going to pay attention to a defence of his personal performance, given just how much his head went

He's no Robbie Deans that's for sure

Uncle fester wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:41 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:59 pm VDM was embarrassed under the high ball, got away with a dangerous lifting tackle, kicked someone to get yellow carded, and carried the ball once

I really don't think anyone is going to pay attention to a defence of his personal performance, given just how much his head went

The attitude of the sweaties has been an embarrassment tbf.

Aaaaaand here’s why I can’t be fucked with the Lions any longer

Slick wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:35 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:41 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:59 pm VDM was embarrassed under the high ball, got away with a dangerous lifting tackle, kicked someone to get yellow carded, and carried the ball once

I really don't think anyone is going to pay attention to a defence of his personal performance, given just how much his head went

The attitude of the sweaties has been an embarrassment tbf.

Aaaaaand here’s why I can’t be fucked with the Lions any longer

Aye, it's all our fault. Gatland tactics, Rassies idiocy, all our fault.

What did you fuckers do to Ken Owens eh

Gatland has screwed the pooch for sure. Waste of time picking VDM with the gameplan we have and I have no idea why Price got dropped from first test but at the end of the day, a senior player like Hogg needs to perform and it didn't happen.

What gets me is the preciousness. The English to a man took Daly's dropping on the chin. In fact, most of them called for it. By quite some distance, the Scots have been the most parochial fans on this tour.

Uncle fester wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:04 pm Gatland has screwed the pooch for sure. Waste of time picking VDM with the gameplan we have and I have no idea why Price got dropped from first test but at the end of the day, a senior player like Hogg needs to perform and it didn't happen.

What gets me is the preciousness. The English to a man took Daly's dropping on the chin. In fact, most of them called for it. By quite some distance, the Scots have been the most parochial fans on this tour.

Is this the point where you now say this isn’t what you mean at all?

I'm sorry?

You are all over the place

Fine. Do it your way. Whine about your representation instead of getting behind the team.

Uncle fester wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:04 pm Gatland has screwed the pooch for sure. Waste of time picking VDM with the gameplan we have and I have no idea why Price got dropped from first test but at the end of the day, a senior player like Hogg needs to perform and it didn't happen.

What gets me is the preciousness. The English to a man took Daly's dropping on the chin. In fact, most of them called for it. By quite some distance, the Scots have been the most parochial fans on this tour.

Oh, do piss off.

Go and have a look. You’ll find that the Scots here fully accepted Sutherland’s dropping to the bench and Watson’s being dropped from the 23. If VdM had been dropped we’d have accepted that too. The only one we really complained about was Price - because he had a very good game, as more or less everyone agreed.

I can absolutely live with Hogg being dropped. It might even have happened after game 1, if Williams hadn’t been even worse under the high ball after he came on. VdM too. They played poorly, and others deserve a shot. What we object to is the narrative that the Lions lost because of Hogg and VdM, in a godawful team performance where everyone played badly. The Lions lost because they picked the wrong game plan, tried to out-Bok the Boks, lost the forward battle, and couldn’t change things up when it wasn’t working.

On the whole back 3 argument, and Williams in particular. If the argument is that you're including him for his aerial prowess, surely you want that used as much as possible? In which case, given the way we've been playing so far, you want him on the wing. FB has been defending high balls but the wingers have been both defending them and employed as chasers. FB hasn't been used to chase very much at all. So if Williams plays, it should be on the wing.

Not that I'm convinced a different back three would have made any difference at all last week.

Pick the bones out of this then!!!
British and Irish Lions: Williams; Adams, Henshaw, Aki, Van der Merwe; Biggar, Price; Jones, Owens, Furlong, Itoje, A Wyn Jones (c), Lawes, Curry, Conan
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Vunipola, Sinckler, Beard, Simmonds, Murray, Russell, Daly
Fagerson will get a Lions cap if Sinckler's disciplinary goes tits-up!

Ken owens must have something on gatland

Happyhooker wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:23 am Ken owens must have something on gatland

That or Jamie George pissed in his cornflakes earlier on tour

You just know Russell is going to get thrown on with 9 minutes left when the Lions are 10 points down and there'll be a barrage of criticism when he doesn't pull something out of his arse to win it.

SaintK wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:21 am Pick the bones out of this then!!!
British and Irish Lions: Williams; Adams, Henshaw, Aki, Van der Merwe; Biggar, Price; Jones, Owens, Furlong, Itoje, A Wyn Jones (c), Lawes, Curry, Conan

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Vunipola, Sinckler, Beard, Simmonds, Murray, Russell, Daly

Poor choice of back row; Aki for Harris is strange; game too far for AWJ (I'd have replaced Henderson); Owens being in the 23 after last weekend is unbelievable; bringing on Russell (+) but paired with glacial Murray (-).

Sub-standard Warrenball for 60 mins and then chuck on Simmonds and Russell with a beaten up pack to conjure something out of thin air. I hope the Lions win but SA are firm favourites but it will be second loss I fear.

Laughable. Owens nowhere near good enough, guarantees we'll be strangled of the ball.
Aki - barely worth explaining why that's silly.
Adams - no
VD Merwe - fully lost his head, niggled by the saffers, offered nothing and they'll go after him again. So drop Watson.

Could go on.

Clearly Gats has decided to take them head on and try and outphysical them again. They came on in the same old way etc etc

Even in the unlikely event it does work, it will be a horrendous game of rugby. Roll on the AIs.

Team is okay (better than I expected considering it's Gatland), but there is nothing on that bench to make a difference.

What a waste not using LRZ, and Beard over Byrne is just a bad selection.

Edit: could comment on lots of other players/selections too, but it's not worth the effort. These coaches and that second match have really sucked a lot of joy out of (Lions) rugby.

Biffer wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:30 am You just know Russell is going to get thrown on with 9 minutes left when the Lions are 10 points down and there'll be a barrage of criticism when he doesn't pull something out of his arse to win it.

They will be a lot more than 10 points down and the only criticism will be of Gatland and his negative tactics andd game plan

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:36 am .......

Clearly Gats has decided to take them head on and try and outphysical them again. They came on in the same old way etc etc

Even in the unlikely event it does work, it will be a horrendous game of rugby. Roll on the AIs.

I'm hoping the Kiwis manage to run around everyone in the RC (I can't see Oz doing it), including the Boks, showing that you just don't out South Africa South Africa.

Couldn't work out what Gatland was trying to achieve with the selection for the 2nd test, just as mystified by this squad. To me it has all the signs of being a slomo trainwreck. I will do my best to watch until at least half time, may take copious amounts of alcohol though. Not optimistic at all.

Congrats Boks

dkm57 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:10 pm Couldn't work out what Gatland was trying to achieve with the selection for the 2nd test, just as mystified by this squad. To me it has all the signs of being a slomo trainwreck. I will do my best to watch until at least half time, may take copious amounts of alcohol though. Not optimistic at all.

Congrats Boks

The Co-op down the road are doing a deal on the very strong ciders - Westons, Aspalls and Thatchers four for eight quid.

I think I'll get a dozen, it might be the only way to watch this weekend.

dkm57 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:10 pm Couldn't work out what Gatland was trying to achieve with the selection for the 2nd test, just as mystified by this squad. To me it has all the signs of being a slomo trainwreck. I will do my best to watch until at least half time, may take copious amounts of alcohol though. Not optimistic at all.

Congrats Boks

Seriously dude.......man up.

dkm57 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:10 pm Couldn't work out what Gatland was trying to achieve with the selection for the 2nd test, just as mystified by this squad. To me it has all the signs of being a slomo trainwreck. I will do my best to watch until at least half time, may take copious amounts of alcohol though. Not optimistic at all.

Congrats Boks

Careful with having too much alchohol during that game, at the very least hide away all the heavy objects as the temptation to smash the TV screen might be too much.

My wife having seen that team has decided to go out for the evening away from me as she knows i am going to be really in a shitty mood all evening.

SaintK wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:21 am Pick the bones out of this then!!!
British and Irish Lions: Williams; Adams, Henshaw, Aki, Van der Merwe; Biggar, Price; Jones, Owens, Furlong, Itoje, A Wyn Jones (c), Lawes, Curry, Conan
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Vunipola, Sinckler, Beard, Simmonds, Murray, Russell, Daly
Fagerson will get a Lions cap if Sinckler's disciplinary goes tits-up!

Bit harsh on a few players and some lucky to keep their places but could be enough to allow for a change of approach. There's still going to be loads of kicking but hopefully the players outside 10 might get the ball in their hands.

At least Henshaw gets to play in his best position. He's been decent in these Tests.