NPR

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 8:23 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:34 pm The hospital thing does amuse me. Gone from Hamas aren't there, doctors stating there no Hamas activity, to there are no tunnels, to there's no command centre, each time as evidence is released, whether video of tunnels or hostages being dragged through the hospital itself. Israel have now breached the door and first images seem to be showing a tunnel with rooms coming off.

Pretty stupid to deny the hospital was used by Hamas and try to refute Mossad’s intelligence information. If there’s one thing Israel does well, it’s intelligence gathering.

Forget Israeli intelligence, you've got multiple sources saying they've known about it since 2014.

Misinformation is being hard peddled by both sides. We are yet to see any concrete justification for the targetting of civilians as collateral in the hospital. Same with the bombing of refugee camps.

We sit here and see the deluge of anti Palestine messaging covered in the veneer of 'but Hamas'.... while the brutal reality is that for years now, the death count inflicted by Israel far outweighs that by Hamas.

I'm sorry Raggs, but in my eyes both sides are equally hateful. Israel has created the problem of Hamas through its own actions and policies. Netanyahu's government is one of extremes and actions sanctioned by it qualify as terrorist actions. I think my first comment on this thread revolved around neither side having any moral high ground in this conflict. I've seen nothing to change that view... but I've lost all sympathy for Israel over the barbarity and brutality employed as response to Oct 7th. It's out of all proportion and inexcusable... the year is 2023 and we are watching attempted genocide. I remember the shock and outrage that swept the world over the Balkan conflicts... this is orders of magnitude beyond that.

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:55 pm Misinformation is being hard peddled by both sides. We are yet to see any concrete justification for the targetting of civilians as collateral in the hospital. Same with the bombing of refugee camps.

Which civilians have been targeted in the hospital? Has Al Shifa been bombed by Israel? Did Israel shoot within the hospital buildings itself? When have civilians been targeted?

Have we got evidence that Hamas used the hospital for military means? We have the hospitals own CCTV showing hostages being dragged into it by armed men. We have weapons being stored there. We have a tunnel system underneath the hospital. What more evidence that the hospital has been used by Hamas in contravention of international law do you require? What exactly, outside of video, witnesses, weapons, and structures would be required to prove it to you?

The refugee camp is part of the city. It's multi-storey buildings, and has been there 20+ years. The rotting corpses of militants pulled out of the tunnels beneath are good evidence that there were militants underneath. This is an area that had received weeks of warning that it was going to be targeted for strikes, and that civilians should move south.

EDIT - Oh, and we have Hamas themselves in video interviews admitting to using hospitals as military bases.

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:55 pm Misinformation is being hard peddled by both sides. We are yet to see any concrete justification for the targetting of civilians as collateral in the hospital. Same with the bombing of refugee camps.

We sit here and see the deluge of anti Palestine messaging covered in the veneer of 'but Hamas'.... while the brutal reality is that for years now, the death count inflicted by Israel far outweighs that by Hamas.

I'm sorry Raggs, but in my eyes both sides are equally hateful. Israel has created the problem of Hamas through its own actions and policies. Netanyahu's government is one of extremes and actions sanctioned by it qualify as terrorist actions. I think my first comment on this thread revolved around neither side having any moral high ground in this conflict. I've seen nothing to change that view... but I've lost all sympathy for Israel over the barbarity and brutality employed as response to Oct 7th. It's out of all proportion and inexcusable... the year is 2023 and we are watching attempted genocide. I remember the shock and outrage that swept the world over the Balkan conflicts... this is orders of magnitude beyond that.

The impact on Palestinian civilians here is immense, but this is well side of the mark imo.

In the Balkan conflicts you had naked targeted genocide. Thousands upon thousands victim to large scale organised executions.

The IDF aren't trying to destroy, partially or wholly a national people. If they are, they aren't doing a great job of it. They are pursuing military goals (misguided or otherwise) against Hamas after being attacked. Within that, their tolerance for collateral damage (terrible term I know) is clearly lax and potentially criminal in some cases based on the principal of proportionality. But it's not genocide.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:38 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:55 pm Misinformation is being hard peddled by both sides. We are yet to see any concrete justification for the targetting of civilians as collateral in the hospital. Same with the bombing of refugee camps.

We sit here and see the deluge of anti Palestine messaging covered in the veneer of 'but Hamas'.... while the brutal reality is that for years now, the death count inflicted by Israel far outweighs that by Hamas.

I'm sorry Raggs, but in my eyes both sides are equally hateful. Israel has created the problem of Hamas through its own actions and policies. Netanyahu's government is one of extremes and actions sanctioned by it qualify as terrorist actions. I think my first comment on this thread revolved around neither side having any moral high ground in this conflict. I've seen nothing to change that view... but I've lost all sympathy for Israel over the barbarity and brutality employed as response to Oct 7th. It's out of all proportion and inexcusable... the year is 2023 and we are watching attempted genocide. I remember the shock and outrage that swept the world over the Balkan conflicts... this is orders of magnitude beyond that.

The impact on Palestinian civilians here is immense, but this is well side of the mark imo.

In the Balkan conflicts you had naked targeted genocide. Thousands upon thousands victim to large scale organised executions.

The IDF aren't trying to destroy, partially or wholly a national people. If they are, they aren't doing a great job of it. They are pursuing military goals (misguided or otherwise) against Hamas after being attacked. Within that, their tolerance for collateral damage (terrible term I know) is clearly lax and potentially criminal in some cases based on the principal of proportionality. But it's not genocide.

Until we actually get proper figures of how many Hamas are dead, vs how many actual civilians, we have no idea about the the collateral damage. I doubt we'll ever get proper figures either. We can know that Israel attempted to clear everyone out of the area of greatest danger for 2 weeks before invading. We can know that they continued with calling people to clear buildings before strikes, and waiting for the buildings to be clear before striking, and that they used knocking missiles, to help ensure that buildings were cleared in an attempt to minimize casualties. No this wasn't done in every instance, but it seems like far more than we hear other militaries doing when striking populated areas. Also, in those figures, we don't know how many of them were killed by Hamas' own rockets. The Al-Ahli hospital bombing is apparently record by the Gazan ministry as 471 deaths (going by the link in it's wiki page). I've read of a UNRWA school being hit by a stray Hamas missile, and also tonight there's reports of another Hamas rocket hitting, or hitting near, another of the hospitals (one in Khan Younis, in the south, I can only imagine that there's going to be a lot of civilians in that area).

There are then also the instances where Hamas have been accused of shooting their own citizens to prevent them from leaving the north.

I know what you mean about the term collateral damage, and every innocent life lost is an issue, but in times of war it is recognised that this happens, and it is on (by law) the militaries involved, to keep themselves separate and distanced from their own civilians, as to not endanger them.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:55 pm

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:38 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:55 pm Misinformation is being hard peddled by both sides. We are yet to see any concrete justification for the targetting of civilians as collateral in the hospital. Same with the bombing of refugee camps.

We sit here and see the deluge of anti Palestine messaging covered in the veneer of 'but Hamas'.... while the brutal reality is that for years now, the death count inflicted by Israel far outweighs that by Hamas.

I'm sorry Raggs, but in my eyes both sides are equally hateful. Israel has created the problem of Hamas through its own actions and policies. Netanyahu's government is one of extremes and actions sanctioned by it qualify as terrorist actions. I think my first comment on this thread revolved around neither side having any moral high ground in this conflict. I've seen nothing to change that view... but I've lost all sympathy for Israel over the barbarity and brutality employed as response to Oct 7th. It's out of all proportion and inexcusable... the year is 2023 and we are watching attempted genocide. I remember the shock and outrage that swept the world over the Balkan conflicts... this is orders of magnitude beyond that.

The impact on Palestinian civilians here is immense, but this is well side of the mark imo.

In the Balkan conflicts you had naked targeted genocide. Thousands upon thousands victim to large scale organised executions.

The IDF aren't trying to destroy, partially or wholly a national people. If they are, they aren't doing a great job of it. They are pursuing military goals (misguided or otherwise) against Hamas after being attacked. Within that, their tolerance for collateral damage (terrible term I know) is clearly lax and potentially criminal in some cases based on the principal of proportionality. But it's not genocide.

Until we actually get proper figures of how many Hamas are dead, vs how many actual civilians, we have no idea about the the collateral damage. I doubt we'll ever get proper figures either. We can know that Israel attempted to clear everyone out of the area of greatest danger for 2 weeks before invading. We can know that they continued with calling people to clear buildings before strikes, and waiting for the buildings to be clear before striking, and that they used knocking missiles, to help ensure that buildings were cleared in an attempt to minimize casualties. No this wasn't done in every instance, but it seems like far more than we hear other militaries doing when striking populated areas. Also, in those figures, we don't know how many of them were killed by Hamas' own rockets. The Al-Ahli hospital bombing is apparently record by the Gazan ministry as 471 deaths (going by the link in it's wiki page). I've read of a UNRWA school being hit by a stray Hamas missile, and also tonight there's reports of another Hamas rocket hitting, or hitting near, another of the hospitals (one in Khan Younis, in the south, I can only imagine that there's going to be a lot of civilians in that area).

There are then also the instances where Hamas have been accused of shooting their own citizens to prevent them from leaving the north.

I know what you mean about the term collateral damage, and every innocent life lost is an issue, but in times of war it is recognised that this happens, and it is on (by law) the militaries involved, to keep themselves separate and distanced from their own civilians, as to not endanger them.

Sure. Extraordinary measures have clearly been taken in many ways to limit casualties when it comes to their area of advance. Leaflets, door knock munitions, bizarre examples like this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079

On the other hand I get the impression that when it comes to potential high value targets in the south for example, they are probably taking the shot regardless of surroundings. That's where the principle of proportionality may come in.

Ultimately they are probably under more scrutiny than any military in history during a conflict and are losing the propaganda war.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:55 pm We can know that Israel attempted to clear everyone out of the area of greatest danger for 2 weeks before invading. We can know that they continued with calling people to clear buildings before strikes, and waiting for the buildings to be clear before striking, and that they used knocking missiles, to help ensure that buildings were cleared in an attempt to minimize casualties. No this wasn't done in every instance, but it seems like far more than we hear other militaries doing when striking populated areas.

Are the reports of six thousand IDF bombs in the first week starting on October 7th totally wrong then? Likewise the comparison to a year's worth of American bombing in Afghanistan being around seven and half thousand bombs?

Or are you saying that Isreal from the off they made sure that they were only destroying homes, not people?

The Scottish Parliament have spent the whole day debating and voting for an immediate ceasefire so that should be it all sorted.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:14 pm The Scottish Parliament have spent the whole day debating and voting for an immediate ceasefire so that should be it all sorted.

Well, in terms of calling for an end to the bloodshed they've done more than the UN, the EU or the UK government then

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:07 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:55 pm We can know that Israel attempted to clear everyone out of the area of greatest danger for 2 weeks before invading. We can know that they continued with calling people to clear buildings before strikes, and waiting for the buildings to be clear before striking, and that they used knocking missiles, to help ensure that buildings were cleared in an attempt to minimize casualties. No this wasn't done in every instance, but it seems like far more than we hear other militaries doing when striking populated areas.

Are the reports of six thousand IDF bombs in the first week starting on October 7th totally wrong then? Likewise the comparison to a year's worth of American bombing in Afghanistan being around seven and half thousand bombs?

Or are you saying that Isreal from the off they made sure that they were only destroying homes, not people?

I'm sure they're right. I did mention that it was before invading, not before responding at all. At the start they were still calling, leaflet dropping, knocking etc too. Except in cases of priority targets. But then, again, the blame should still lie at least equally on the shoulders of the government who chooses to deliberately endanger it's people.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:07 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:55 pm We can know that Israel attempted to clear everyone out of the area of greatest danger for 2 weeks before invading. We can know that they continued with calling people to clear buildings before strikes, and waiting for the buildings to be clear before striking, and that they used knocking missiles, to help ensure that buildings were cleared in an attempt to minimize casualties. No this wasn't done in every instance, but it seems like far more than we hear other militaries doing when striking populated areas.

Are the reports of six thousand IDF bombs in the first week starting on October 7th totally wrong then? Likewise the comparison to a year's worth of American bombing in Afghanistan being around seven and half thousand bombs?

Or are you saying that Isreal from the off they made sure that they were only destroying homes, not people?

I'm sure they're right. I did mention that it was before invading, not before responding at all. At the start they were still calling, leaflet dropping, knocking etc too. Except in cases of priority targets. But then, again, the blame should still lie at least equally on the shoulders of the government who chooses to deliberately endanger it's people.

I don't think extreme retribution was the only possible response to the atrocities of October the 7th, certainly not the collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza, which has undeniably happened.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:33 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:07 pm



Are the reports of six thousand IDF bombs in the first week starting on October 7th totally wrong then? Likewise the comparison to a year's worth of American bombing in Afghanistan being around seven and half thousand bombs?

Or are you saying that Isreal from the off they made sure that they were only destroying homes, not people?

I'm sure they're right. I did mention that it was before invading, not before responding at all. At the start they were still calling, leaflet dropping, knocking etc too. Except in cases of priority targets. But then, again, the blame should still lie at least equally on the shoulders of the government who chooses to deliberately endanger it's people.

I don't think extreme retribution was the only possible response to the atrocities of October the 7th, certainly not the collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza, which has undeniably happened.

War doesn't seem an unreasonable response when your country is invaded by thousands of fighters from a hostile government, who took part in barbaric practices, killed nearly a thousand civilians and took civilian hostages.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:33 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 pm

I'm sure they're right. I did mention that it was before invading, not before responding at all. At the start they were still calling, leaflet dropping, knocking etc too. Except in cases of priority targets. But then, again, the blame should still lie at least equally on the shoulders of the government who chooses to deliberately endanger it's people.

I don't think extreme retribution was the only possible response to the atrocities of October the 7th, certainly not the collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza, which has undeniably happened.

War doesn't seem an unreasonable response when your country is invaded by thousands of fighters from a hostile government, who took part in barbaric practices, killed nearly a thousand civilians and took civilian hostages.

Listen, I'm pretty sure you could hear a Palestinian saying that is what has been happening to them for decades.

At some point the bloodshed has to stop, I hear all this stuff about from the river to the sea and that is appalling, Netanyahu quoted a verse from the Torah which called for the annihilation of Israel's enemies.

This is madness, all of it..

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:14 pm The Scottish Parliament have spent the whole day debating and voting for an immediate ceasefire so that should be it all sorted.

Well, in terms of calling for an end to the bloodshed they've done more than the UN, the EU or the UK government then

Spending their time discussing a position that will not only fail to attract agreement but may not even be listened to in the first place is just odd. People should ask for their taxes back when they've clearly got a surplus like this to be spaffing up the wall.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:17 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:14 pm The Scottish Parliament have spent the whole day debating and voting for an immediate ceasefire so that should be it all sorted.

Well, in terms of calling for an end to the bloodshed they've done more than the UN, the EU or the UK government then

Spending their time discussing a position that will not only fail to attract agreement but may not even be listened to in the first place is just odd. People should ask for their taxes back when they've clearly got a surplus like this to be spaffing up the wall.

FYI, no one will be granted a refund on taxes if they don't agree with a topic or like how time is spent debating in parliament or the Scottish government.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:52 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:33 pm


I don't think extreme retribution was the only possible response to the atrocities of October the 7th, certainly not the collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza, which has undeniably happened.

War doesn't seem an unreasonable response when your country is invaded by thousands of fighters from a hostile government, who took part in barbaric practices, killed nearly a thousand civilians and took civilian hostages.

Listen, I'm pretty sure you could hear a Palestinian saying that is what has been happening to them for decades.

At some point the bloodshed has to stop, I hear all this stuff about from the river to the sea and that is appalling, Netanyahu quoted a verse from the Torah which called for the annihilation of Israel's enemies.

This is madness, all of it..

Shocking lack of self awareness from Raggs. Israel is a hostile occupying force. There's almost universal use of the term 'occupied territories' ffs. Palestinians have been killed by Israelis as a matter of course for years.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:14 pm The Scottish Parliament have spent the whole day debating and voting for an immediate ceasefire so that should be it all sorted.

Well, in terms of calling for an end to the bloodshed they've done more than the UN, the EU or the UK government then

I think Yousaf could have called for an end to bloodshed without them wasting a day discussing it. Especially when no one in a position to do anything gives two hoots what Scotland thinks. Yousaf spends more time concerned with things outwith his control than he does on actual Scottish issues. I'm sorry his in laws got stuck there but it really should not be a SG priority unless you are looking for a pointless distraction to avoid discussion the shit that is going on in this country.

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:43 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:52 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 pm

War doesn't seem an unreasonable response when your country is invaded by thousands of fighters from a hostile government, who took part in barbaric practices, killed nearly a thousand civilians and took civilian hostages.

Listen, I'm pretty sure you could hear a Palestinian saying that is what has been happening to them for decades.

At some point the bloodshed has to stop, I hear all this stuff about from the river to the sea and that is appalling, Netanyahu quoted a verse from the Torah which called for the annihilation of Israel's enemies.

This is madness, all of it..

Shocking lack of self awareness from Raggs. Israel is a hostile occupying force. There's almost universal use of the term 'occupied territories' ffs. Palestinians have been killed by Israelis as a matter of course for years.

Worth a viewing.

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:43 am

Shocking lack of self awareness from Raggs. Israel is a hostile occupying force. There's almost universal use of the term 'occupied territories' ffs. Palestinians have been killed by Israelis as a matter of course for years.

The universal use of such terms for Israel is part of the every day anti zionist (not to say anti semitic) propaganda. For 75 years only one side, the arabs, has continually tried to invade and murder the other. As a result of that, mainly 3 won major wars in which they were attacked but came out victorious, Israel has taken military control of territories. Those territories were part a UN proposed arab state in the former british mandatory palestine, which the arabs did not want, though. Instead, they declared war and terror for 75 years.

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:43 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:52 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 pm

War doesn't seem an unreasonable response when your country is invaded by thousands of fighters from a hostile government, who took part in barbaric practices, killed nearly a thousand civilians and took civilian hostages.

Listen, I'm pretty sure you could hear a Palestinian saying that is what has been happening to them for decades.

At some point the bloodshed has to stop, I hear all this stuff about from the river to the sea and that is appalling, Netanyahu quoted a verse from the Torah which called for the annihilation of Israel's enemies.

This is madness, all of it..

Shocking lack of self awareness from Raggs. Israel is a hostile occupying force. There's almost universal use of the term 'occupied territories' ffs. Palestinians have been killed by Israelis as a matter of course for years.

Legitimate resistance, ok. Go for it. I'm not going to be happy, but at the same time, there's going to be little serious complaint. But legitimate resistance is attacking military, not civilian. It's taking prisoners of war, who are military, not civilian hostages. It's not beheading, it's not placing babies in ovens, it's not raping, it's not slicing their Achilles so they can't run away, it's not plucking the eyeballs out of people before executing them.

It pisses me off when people claim Israel and Hamas are just as bad, because that's clearly not the case. Israel is far from perfect, I've protested against this Israeli government, have you? I did so with no fear of getting a bullet from the police, or from being chucked off a building. I've been to parties with Gay israeli friends, I've eaten with Arabs, Druze, Muslims, Christians, atheists all happily with no issues and no fears.

You want peace in the area? I want it more. Is the current government a true partner for peace, no. But will they be elected out soon, yes, will any of the leaders in the rest of the middle East, most of whom want Israel destroyed, be elected out any time soon? No. Peace for Israel is not just a case of making Gaza and West Bank happy, they're happiness is influenced by a significant other number of nations and financed by them. Hamas aren't just resisting the occupation, they aren't resisting for the 66 borders, they want Israel gone. They were voted in on the back of Israel taking the biggest active step (not just words) towards peace, that received no reciprocation, and only further endangered the lives of Israeli's.

Hamas is run by multiple billionaires, they have the money, the guns and the power, and an oppressed people. They're going nowhere of not removed.

I'd love the UN to step in and take over responsibility and for Israel to simply step out of the occupied territories, but looking at how well the UN is securing the Lebanon border (as they're responsible for), do you really think it'd work?

From the NYT



By Karen Zraick
Published Nov. 21, 2023
Updated Nov. 22, 2023, 2:23 a.m. ET


Negotiations around the release of Israeli women and children held hostage in Gaza have centered on an exchange for Palestinian women and minors held in Israeli prisons. The size of that group has grown quickly during the six weeks of war and upheaval since the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israel, according to a Palestinian prisoners’ rights group.

The group, Addameer, says that about 200 boys, most of them teenagers, were in Israeli detention as of this week, along with about 75 women and five teenage girls. Before Oct. 7, about 150 boys and 30 women and girls were in Israeli prisons, it said, and since then, many other detentions have occurred, as well as many releases.

Addameer said that it compiled the figures using data from the Israel Prison Service, which administers the country’s jails, and information from the families of detained people.

Early Wednesday, the Israeli government and Hamas announced they would uphold a four-day cease-fire in Gaza to allow for the release of 50 hostages captured during Hamas’s assault last month on Israel and 150 Palestinian prisoners held in Israel.

Many of the most recent arrests of Palestinians came during raids across the Israeli-occupied West Bank, where protests and violence have surged, including attacks on Palestinians by Israeli settlers. Israel has said that the arrests are part of a counterterror operation against Hamas in the West Bank.

There are also about 700 people missing from Gaza who are believed to be in Israeli prisons, but information on their whereabouts is murky, said Tala Nasir, a spokeswoman for Addameer. It was not clear how many of those people, if any, were women or minors. The Israeli military has said that it has apprehended 300 people in Gaza during the ground invasion that it claimed were connected to armed Palestinian groups, and that they “were brought into Israeli territory for further interrogations.”

Of the roughly 240 Israeli hostages taken to Gaza by Hamas and other armed groups, 33 are minors, the youngest of whom is 9 months old, according to the Israeli government. At least 62 are women, according to an organization formed by the hostages’ families. Four of the women being held hostage are Israeli soldiers, according to interviews with their family members and information gathered by a forum of the hostages’ families.

As of this week, the total number of what Addameer calls Palestinian political prisoners in Israel — including people from Gaza, the West Bank and Israel — was 7,000, up from about 5,000 before Oct. 7, according to Addameer. That includes more than 2,000 people held in “administrative detention,” meaning they are being held indefinitely without charges, it said.

Ms. Nasir said that her group defines that category as Palestinians arrested for offenses that are related to political activity and free speech rather than crimes like drugs or violence. She added that Addameer had received many reports in recent weeks of people arrested on charges of incitement for their social media posts in Israel and the West Bank. Earlier this month, the Knesset passed an amendment to a counterterrorism law that criminalized the “consumption of terrorist materials.”

Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, said that it was monitoring 121 cases of arrests and detentions linked to social media posts, some which “merely contained expressions of solidarity with the Palestinian people in Gaza, or even verses shared from the Quran.”

Rights groups have long warned that Palestinian detainees are held without due process and face abuse and even torture. Military Court Watch, a nonprofit legal group, said last year that of the 100 Palestinian children detained by Israeli forces that it had interviewed, 74 percent reported physical abuse, and 42 percent said they were put in solitary confinement.

The women in Israeli detention include Ahed Tamimi, 22, a high-profile figure in the West Bank who was sentenced to prison in 2018 for slapping an Israeli soldier. Israeli officials accused her of her posting hate speech online; her family said the post was not hers.

Six Palestinian detainees who were held without charges have died in Israeli prisons in recent weeks, according to Wafa, the Palestinian Authority’s news agency. One of them, Omar Daraghmeh, was a senior member of Hamas, the militant group said when his death was announced.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/21/worl ... -deal.html

If they survived, the youngest hostage is probably only days old, as one of the women taken was due to give birth earlier this month.

I wonder if we can get the pictures and back stories of all the thousands of Palestinian political prisoners held without charge on the MSM in the West.
Interviews with their families etc. These are a essentially hostages taken by Israel as bargaining tools. How surprising there has been no mention of this in the UK.

Both sides are a disgrace but the sheer scale of detentions of Palestinian civilians and children being held indefinitely without trial as per he article is horrific.
A light needs to be shone on this.

Let's hope to God the 240 Hamas hostages and the several thousand Palestinian hostages are released and those responsible on both sides are held to account..

C69 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:35 am I wonder if we can get the pictures and back stories of all the thousands of Palestinian political prisoners held without charge on the MSM in the West.
Interviews with their families etc. These are a essentially hostages taken by Israel as bargaining tools. How surprising there has been no mention of this in the UK.

Both sides are a disgrace but the sheer scale of detentions of Palestinian civilians and children being held indefinitely without trial as per he article is horrific.
A light needs to be shone on this.

Let's hope to God the 240 Hamas hostages and the several thousand Palestinian hostages are released and those responsible on both sides are held to account..

Those held without trial (assuming it's not just a pending trial date) should absolutely be released, or given a trial.

Children however are not automatically innocents, u18s can and do get charged and arrested all over the world for offences. One of those on the list to be released is a 15 year old Palestinian girl who has been sentenced for 12 years for attempted murder (from what I can tell, committed when she 14) when she stabbed her Jewish neighbour.

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:42 am

C69 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:35 am I wonder if we can get the pictures and back stories of all the thousands of Palestinian political prisoners held without charge on the MSM in the West.
Interviews with their families etc. These are a essentially hostages taken by Israel as bargaining tools. How surprising there has been no mention of this in the UK.

Both sides are a disgrace but the sheer scale of detentions of Palestinian civilians and children being held indefinitely without trial as per he article is horrific.
A light needs to be shone on this.

Let's hope to God the 240 Hamas hostages and the several thousand Palestinian hostages are released and those responsible on both sides are held to account..

Those held without trial (assuming it's not just a pending trial date) should absolutely be released, or given a trial.

Children however are not automatically innocents, u18s can and do get charged and arrested all over the world for offences. One of those on the list to be released is a 15 year old Palestinian girl who has been sentenced for 12 years for attempted murder (from what I can tell, committed when she 14) when she stabbed her Jewish neighbour.

But Raggs, ALL Palestinian prisoners are held without trial in Israel!!!

Blackmac wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:14 pm The Scottish Parliament have spent the whole day debating and voting for an immediate ceasefire so that should be it all sorted.

Its totally legitimate to express such a opinion obviously but spending parliamentary time and passing resolutions just strikes me as preening by people who prefer student politics to the hard work.
I think this is true at Westminster too fwiw.

The UK government probaly has a very modest amount of influence but it strikes me that serious diplomatic work is going on to secure aid and even a 'pause'.. the idea that resolutions passed in devolved legislators matter more is moronic.

For those wetting themselves over the amount of time the Scottish Parliament spent on passing the motion yesterday the debate started at 2.50pm, there were a couple of votes on amendments before the Government's motion was passed at 5.08 pm, 2 hours and 18 minutes. I haven't read a full breakdown of the vote but it looks like it was heavily backed by Labour and opposed by the Tories.

From a very quick Google the debate has been reported on by the Jewish Chronicle, Aljazeera and Anadulo Agency, a state run news organisation in Turkey.

Will it make a difference? Very likely not, but it isn't being completely ignored either, it may just be the first grain of sand to fall in a shift in how governments across the world address the issue, it may not. It is however an arrogance to dismiss it as nothing.

Seen a news report saying that in different reports, Qatari's have made the suggestion that not all of the hostages being released (children, and their mothers) are necessarily alive. Guess we need to wait and see, hopefully not the case.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:33 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:17 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 pm



Well, in terms of calling for an end to the bloodshed they've done more than the UN, the EU or the UK government then

Spending their time discussing a position that will not only fail to attract agreement but may not even be listened to in the first place is just odd. People should ask for their taxes back when they've clearly got a surplus like this to be spaffing up the wall.

FYI, no one will be granted a refund on taxes if they don't agree with a topic or like how time is spent debating in parliament or the Scottish government.

One merely makes the point they've turned themselves into a very expensive and largely if not entirely pointless talking shop. When they did have actual work to be doing for the people paying for them to be there.

That's not entirely fair, as a collective builds in the international community that's not nothing, not even to Israel. But it is largely fair

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:33 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:25 pm

I'm sure they're right. I did mention that it was before invading, not before responding at all. At the start they were still calling, leaflet dropping, knocking etc too. Except in cases of priority targets. But then, again, the blame should still lie at least equally on the shoulders of the government who chooses to deliberately endanger it's people.

I don't think extreme retribution was the only possible response to the atrocities of October the 7th, certainly not the collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza, which has undeniably happened.

War doesn't seem an unreasonable response when your country is invaded by thousands of fighters from a hostile government, who took part in barbaric practices, killed nearly a thousand civilians and took civilian hostages.

Let's not forget that the repression on the west bank has increased as well and they are not governed by Hamas.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:57 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:33 pm


I don't think extreme retribution was the only possible response to the atrocities of October the 7th, certainly not the collective punishment of the entire population of Gaza, which has undeniably happened.

War doesn't seem an unreasonable response when your country is invaded by thousands of fighters from a hostile government, who took part in barbaric practices, killed nearly a thousand civilians and took civilian hostages.

Let's not forget that the repression on the west bank has increased as well and they are not governed by Hamas.

They aren't, there is Hamas present there, but as I've repeatedly pointed out, a lot of what is going on there is just wrong on the Israeli side. But they're not getting bombed etc.

Is there a reason you're raising the West Bank though? The topic of that particular discussion was clearly focusing on Gaza. Shall we point out that Hamas and their allies are bombing Israel from Syria and Lebanon? Or that Houthi's are shooting cruise missiles and drones at Israel? None of those conflicts change what is happening in Gaza, and the reason for war in Gaza.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:38 pm

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:55 pm Misinformation is being hard peddled by both sides. We are yet to see any concrete justification for the targetting of civilians as collateral in the hospital. Same with the bombing of refugee camps.

We sit here and see the deluge of anti Palestine messaging covered in the veneer of 'but Hamas'.... while the brutal reality is that for years now, the death count inflicted by Israel far outweighs that by Hamas.

I'm sorry Raggs, but in my eyes both sides are equally hateful. Israel has created the problem of Hamas through its own actions and policies. Netanyahu's government is one of extremes and actions sanctioned by it qualify as terrorist actions. I think my first comment on this thread revolved around neither side having any moral high ground in this conflict. I've seen nothing to change that view... but I've lost all sympathy for Israel over the barbarity and brutality employed as response to Oct 7th. It's out of all proportion and inexcusable... the year is 2023 and we are watching attempted genocide. I remember the shock and outrage that swept the world over the Balkan conflicts... this is orders of magnitude beyond that.

The impact on Palestinian civilians here is immense, but this is well side of the mark imo.

In the Balkan conflicts you had naked targeted genocide. Thousands upon thousands victim to large scale organised executions.

The IDF aren't trying to destroy, partially or wholly a national people. If they are, they aren't doing a great job of it. They are pursuing military goals (misguided or otherwise) against Hamas after being attacked. Within that, their tolerance for collateral damage (terrible term I know) is clearly lax and potentially criminal in some cases based on the principal of proportionality. But it's not genocide.

I'm not sure I agree.

Look at the wider context of Israel's actions. You have the settlements on the west bank and they are getting more and more aggressive since Oct 7th with the repression being very arbitrary. If it's a war against Hamas, why are they tightening the noose on the west bank which is not governed by Hamas?

Gaza has been under blockade for decades.

Israel has consistently undermined the two state solution that they agreed to.

The choices open to Palestinians appear to be complete and utter submission or leave/die. First is never going to happen so that leaves leave/die. That's genocide.

When the phrase "river to the sea" comes up, are we sure that is not Israeli policy also?

Let's call it what it is, this is an ugly conflict of modern day colonial subjugation carried out in the age of tik tok.

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:10 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:57 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:40 pm

War doesn't seem an unreasonable response when your country is invaded by thousands of fighters from a hostile government, who took part in barbaric practices, killed nearly a thousand civilians and took civilian hostages.

Let's not forget that the repression on the west bank has increased as well and they are not governed by Hamas.

They aren't, there is Hamas present there, but as I've repeatedly pointed out, a lot of what is going on there is just wrong on the Israeli side. But they're not getting bombed etc.

Is there a reason you're raising the West Bank though? The topic of that particular discussion was clearly focusing on Gaza. Shall we point out that Hamas and their allies are bombing Israel from Syria and Lebanon? Or that Houthi's are shooting cruise missiles and drones at Israel? None of those conflicts change what is happening in Gaza, and the reason for war in Gaza.

The reason for war in Gaza is that this is part of a long running conflict where every tipping point ends up with Israel having more land and the Palestinians less.

Under cover of what is happening in Gaza, the settlements in the west bank will extend their control and make a Palestinian governed state even less viable or stable.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:27 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:10 pm

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:57 pm

Let's not forget that the repression on the west bank has increased as well and they are not governed by Hamas.

They aren't, there is Hamas present there, but as I've repeatedly pointed out, a lot of what is going on there is just wrong on the Israeli side. But they're not getting bombed etc.

Is there a reason you're raising the West Bank though? The topic of that particular discussion was clearly focusing on Gaza. Shall we point out that Hamas and their allies are bombing Israel from Syria and Lebanon? Or that Houthi's are shooting cruise missiles and drones at Israel? None of those conflicts change what is happening in Gaza, and the reason for war in Gaza.

The reason for war in Gaza is that this is part of a long running conflict where every tipping point ends up with Israel having more land and the Palestinians less.

Under cover of what is happening in Gaza, the settlements in the west bank will extend their control and make a Palestinian governed state even less viable or stable.

Every tipping point? Like the 2005 withdrawal? Like the agreements in place in 2008 (I think), where there was a full agreement hammered out, even covering some degree of right of return, with a land swap in place, agreements over Jerusalem? There have been genuine opportunities for this to be resolved, or at least move forward towards peace with positive steps. It's not been Israel that haven't made genuinely big positive steps, or refused to sign the agreements.

I constantly condemn the settlers in the west bank, and it does appear that Israel is starting to take it more seriously too, as a government official has been tasked with stopping the settler terrorists.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:04 am For those wetting themselves over the amount of time the Scottish Parliament spent on passing the motion yesterday the debate started at 2.50pm, there were a couple of votes on amendments before the Government's motion was passed at 5.08 pm, 2 hours and 18 minutes. I haven't read a full breakdown of the vote but it looks like it was heavily backed by Labour and opposed by the Tories.

From a very quick Google the debate has been reported on by the Jewish Chronicle, Aljazeera and Anadulo Agency, a state run news organisation in Turkey.

Will it make a difference? Very likely not, but it isn't being completely ignored either, it may just be the first grain of sand to fall in a shift in how governments across the world address the issue, it may not. It is however an arrogance to dismiss it as nothing.

I hardly think it is arrogance to downplay Scotland's limited impact on world affairs. I would say the arrogance exists in the Scottish politicians thinking otherwise.

In addition I doubt anyone here is "wetting themselves". That's an entirely childish and unnecessary play on things and if anyone comes across as anything near that description i would suggest it may be you given the efforts you go to to get your point across.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:43 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:04 am For those wetting themselves over the amount of time the Scottish Parliament spent on passing the motion yesterday the debate started at 2.50pm, there were a couple of votes on amendments before the Government's motion was passed at 5.08 pm, 2 hours and 18 minutes. I haven't read a full breakdown of the vote but it looks like it was heavily backed by Labour and opposed by the Tories.

From a very quick Google the debate has been reported on by the Jewish Chronicle, Aljazeera and Anadulo Agency, a state run news organisation in Turkey.

Will it make a difference? Very likely not, but it isn't being completely ignored either, it may just be the first grain of sand to fall in a shift in how governments across the world address the issue, it may not. It is however an arrogance to dismiss it as nothing.

I hardly think it is arrogance to downplay Scotland's limited impact on world affairs. I would say the arrogance exists in the Scottish politicians thinking otherwise.

In addition I doubt anyone here is "wetting themselves". That's an entirely childish and unnecessary play on things and if anyone comes across as anything near that description i would suggest it may be you given the efforts you go to to get your point across.

You said the Scottish parliament had spent the whole day debating and voting on the issue. It wasn't even two and half hours, including motions for amendments from both Tory and Labour.

I agree that the "wetting themselves" was uncalled for, I was going to change it to "those concerned about the amount of time" but I was irked by the dismissal of Scot Gov as "too wee and unimportant" tone from three posts on it.

I stooped there, mea culpa.

Truly depressing situation.

Every death is totally the responsibility of Hamas /Iran cuntz

Israel has to eliminate Hamas completely. It has imperfectly tried to reduce / minimize civilian casualties, but Hamas aren't the Messiah, they are very naughty boys.

Hope TF it all ends shortly with minimal collateral casualties.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:16 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:43 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:04 am For those wetting themselves over the amount of time the Scottish Parliament spent on passing the motion yesterday the debate started at 2.50pm, there were a couple of votes on amendments before the Government's motion was passed at 5.08 pm, 2 hours and 18 minutes. I haven't read a full breakdown of the vote but it looks like it was heavily backed by Labour and opposed by the Tories.

From a very quick Google the debate has been reported on by the Jewish Chronicle, Aljazeera and Anadulo Agency, a state run news organisation in Turkey.

Will it make a difference? Very likely not, but it isn't being completely ignored either, it may just be the first grain of sand to fall in a shift in how governments across the world address the issue, it may not. It is however an arrogance to dismiss it as nothing.

I hardly think it is arrogance to downplay Scotland's limited impact on world affairs. I would say the arrogance exists in the Scottish politicians thinking otherwise.

In addition I doubt anyone here is "wetting themselves". That's an entirely childish and unnecessary play on things and if anyone comes across as anything near that description i would suggest it may be you given the efforts you go to to get your point across.

You said the Scottish parliament had spent the whole day debating and voting on the issue. It wasn't even two and half hours, including motions for amendments from both Tory and Labour.

I agree that the "wetting themselves" was uncalled for, I was going to change it to "those concerned about the amount of time" but I was irked by the dismissal of Scot Gov as "too wee and unimportant" tone from three posts on it.

I stooped there, mea culpa.

I think you maybe take some of this a bit too seriously. I treat this place as just a bit of banter and really put the square root of zero effort into it. I'm not trying to win any debates just have a bit of a blether without really worrying about the pinpoint accuracy you require.

bogbunny wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:42 pm Truly depressing situation.

Every death is totally the responsibility of Hamas /Iran cuntz

Israel has to eliminate Hamas completely. It has imperfectly tried to reduce / minimize civilian casualties, but Hamas aren't the Messiah, they are very naughty boys.

Hope TF it all ends shortly with minimal collateral casualties.

Hamas success is measured by how many civilians they can put in harms way.

They look like they are succeeding

Terrorist attack car bomb in the states



It says attempted, so hopefully that just means a Darwin.