The Official English Rugby Thread

[SaintK]

Hearing Youngs and Curry out of match squad for Italy
No confirmation yet

Yep
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/young ... -36-to-29/

And of course, the fact it was posted a while back and mentioned on the thread before that

Excited to see Willis again, Ludlam impressed me on Sat. Wonder if we'll try for a bigger 6, seeing as our lineout wasn't great.

On phone didn’t look back on the thread
All caught up now

[JM2K6]

Don't forget all the academy players and England u16s, the 12s, 13s and probably the backrowers in those teams will all be better options than Farrell as well.

Maybe I missed something, but the conversational thread I was picking up on was essentially 'who are England's other 12 options?' not 'who is or could possibly be a better 12 for England than Farrell?'. Which is a question that's entirely reliant on what else is going on in selection anyway. If Smith's at 10 and Marchant or another quick, but not physically imposing strike runner, is at 13, then someone like Porter may actually be a player who better completes the midfield while still not necessarily being a better player than Farrell. Similarly if Farrell were at 10, you'd be looking at which players provide the most complementary midfield trio rather than who are the best players outright.

There's a lot of bad faith arguments when it comes to Farrell. #ABF is the narrative sometimes, it's ridiculous.

Everyone was replying to your comment about the lack of EQP 12s.

[Kawazaki]

Maybe I missed something, but the conversational thread I was picking up on was essentially 'who are England's other 12 options?' not 'who is or could possibly be a better 12 for England than Farrell?'. Which is a question that's entirely reliant on what else is going on in selection anyway. If Smith's at 10 and Marchant or another quick, but not physically imposing strike runner, is at 13, then someone like Porter may actually be a player who better completes the midfield while still not necessarily being a better player than Farrell. Similarly if Farrell were at 10, you'd be looking at which players provide the most complementary midfield trio rather than who are the best players outright.

There's a lot of bad faith arguments when it comes to Farrell. #ABF is the narrative sometimes, it's ridiculous.

Everyone was replying to your comment about the lack of EQP 12s.

Yes, by listing a load of EQP 13s or a rare 12s who can't even get into their club sides, or 12s who are permacrocs. Amazed 36 wasn't mentioned as a viable alternative.

[Margin__Walker]

You said there was one EQP 12 playing in the prem. That's nonsense.

The discussion wasn't about viable test alternatives, which would have been a reasonable argument

[Ovals]

You said there was one EQP 12 playing in the prem. That's nonsense.

The discussion wasn't about viable test alternatives, which would have been a reasonable argument

No one mentioned Sam Bedlow who starts regularly at 12 for Bristol. Solid club level defender.

[Hal Jordan]

My take on the Farrell issue is that he has become, at least in the eyes of many, an undroppable player, who's also playing 80 minutes every match come what may. And that's a problem both from a continuity point of view - who do we look to after He's gone (presumably after the World Cup) and on match day - if he's never coming off, everyone else has to work round him.

I'm not sure how this has come about - I know generally you don't sub your captain, but Hartley used to get hauled off every match.

He's a fine player and his good stuff in an England shirt far outweighs the bad, but he seems to have ascended to some untouchable status where if he's not at 12, he must be our "world class" fly half, which he isn't, at least not at Test level on the evidence produced. World class fly halves don't spend most of their Test careers at 12.

If he gets the gig at 10, fine, but he needs to have some vulnerability with the knowledge he could get hooked.

[Kawazaki]

My take on the Farrell issue is that he has become, at least in the eyes of many, an undroppable player, who's also playing 80 minutes every match come what may. And that's a problem both from a continuity point of view - who do we look to after He's gone (presumably after the World Cup) and on match day - if he's never coming off, everyone else has to work round him.

I'm not sure how this has come about - I know generally you don't sub your captain, but Hartley used to get hauled off every match.

He's a fine player and his good stuff in an England shirt far outweighs the bad, but he seems to have ascended to some untouchable status where if he's not at 12, he must be our "world class" fly half, which he isn't, at least not at Test level on the evidence produced. World class fly halves don't spend most of their Test careers at 12.

If he gets the gig at 10, fine, but he needs to have some vulnerability with the knowledge he could get hooked.

It's worth repeating that Farrell gets picked to play 12 for England because of the dearth of EQP 12s to play there instead of him. If England had a top inside centre or better still, maybe 2 or 3 of them then Farrell wouldn't be considered to play there, he'd likely be the starting 10, on the bench or not selected.

[Ovals]

My take on the Farrell issue is that he has become, at least in the eyes of many, an undroppable player, who's also playing 80 minutes every match come what may. And that's a problem both from a continuity point of view - who do we look to after He's gone (presumably after the World Cup) and on match day - if he's never coming off, everyone else has to work round him.

I'm not sure how this has come about - I know generally you don't sub your captain, but Hartley used to get hauled off every match.

He's a fine player and his good stuff in an England shirt far outweighs the bad, but he seems to have ascended to some untouchable status where if he's not at 12, he must be our "world class" fly half, which he isn't, at least not at Test level on the evidence produced. World class fly halves don't spend most of their Test careers at 12.

If he gets the gig at 10, fine, but he needs to have some vulnerability with the knowledge he could get hooked.

It's worth repeating that Farrell gets picked to play 12 for England because of the dearth of EQP 12s to play there instead of him. If England had a top inside centre or better still, maybe 2 or 3 of them then Farrell wouldn't be considered to play there, he'd likely be the starting 10, on the bench or not selected.

I think everyone understands and accepts that. I guess the question is whether playing a 13 (or ocassional 12) at IC for England, would be better than having Farrell there. Is a converted 13 a better bet than Farrell who's a converted FH ? Either way it's not ideal and you'd want the England set up to try and get, whoever is selected, starting at 12 for their club. And, if the latter is the better bet - is there time to get that right before the WC.

I suspect we'll either continue with Farrell there or we'll give Kelly a go when he's fit - even if he's just considered as a back up.

It's unfortunate for Farrelll as he's obviously a far better 10 than 12 and he'll, basically, have had his whole England career playing below his potential due to being out of position.

[Kawazaki]

Indeed. It's difficult to believe that England haven't produced a top inside centre for over 20 years. Literally none. Whoever runs the England performance pathways should be strung up. Start with the idiot who thought Barbeary should move from inside centre to hooker when he was 16.

[sockwithaticket]

The sensible one on Eggchasers mentioned something about the England 12 issue that I've thought for a while - we produce a lot of back rowers at age group level who don't make it in those positions as full pros. Not all of them will make it if you switch them to centre, but some might if some concerted time and effort was put into retraining them.

I've half seriously said before, that if we just want someone to balance out our midfield by being able to truck it up through the middle effectively then players like Simmonds or Earl wouldn't be the worst choices to line up there. Obviously there are nuances to the position that are difficult to pick up later in life, but I wouldn't say players like that have any more limited a skillset than Tuilagi who is generally used as either a battering ram or decoy, especially when played in the 12 channel.

If we could nab a few such guys earlier and train them appropriately we might have a few more options that are closer to a Jauzion or a Nonu (who was nowhere near being well rounded at the start of his career, but became one of the best ever 12s in time), than a Francis or a Noon.

[JM2K6]

My take on the Farrell issue is that he has become, at least in the eyes of many, an undroppable player, who's also playing 80 minutes every match come what may. And that's a problem both from a continuity point of view - who do we look to after He's gone (presumably after the World Cup) and on match day - if he's never coming off, everyone else has to work round him.

I'm not sure how this has come about - I know generally you don't sub your captain, but Hartley used to get hauled off every match.

He's a fine player and his good stuff in an England shirt far outweighs the bad, but he seems to have ascended to some untouchable status where if he's not at 12, he must be our "world class" fly half, which he isn't, at least not at Test level on the evidence produced. World class fly halves don't spend most of their Test careers at 12.

If he gets the gig at 10, fine, but he needs to have some vulnerability with the knowledge he could get hooked.

It's worth repeating that Farrell gets picked to play 12 for England because of the dearth of EQP 12s to play there instead of him. If England had a top inside centre or better still, maybe 2 or 3 of them then Farrell wouldn't be considered to play there, he'd likely be the starting 10, on the bench or not selected.

I think everyone understands and accepts that. I guess the question is whether playing a 13 (or ocassional 12) at IC for England, would be better than having Farrell there. Is a converted 13 a better bet than Farrell who's a converted FH ? Either way it's not ideal and you'd want the England set up to try and get, whoever is selected, starting at 12 for their club. And, if the latter is the better bet - is there time to get that right before the WC.

I suspect we'll either continue with Farrell there or we'll give Kelly a go when he's fit - even if he's just considered as a back up.

It's unfortunate for Farrelll as he's obviously a far better 10 than 12 and he'll, basically, have had his whole England career playing below his potential due to being out of position.

According to ESPN's statsguru, Farrell's started 39 Tests at flyhalf. That's more than Charlie Hodgson's entire Test career. It's fair to say it's been a mixed time of things for Faz as a ten, and there's been a few times when him being moved out to 12 was both a blessed relief and a winning move.

He should be at his absolute peak right now so of course it's a reasonable thing to suggest he be given another shot at flyhalf, but it's not like we've not tried it quite a lot before.

[Niegs]

The sensible one on Eggchasers mentioned something about the England 12 issue that I've thought for a while - we produce a lot of back rowers at age group level who don't make it in those positions as full pros. Not all of them will make it if you switch them to centre, but some might if some concerted time and effort was put into retraining them.

I've half seriously said before, that if we just want someone to balance out our midfield by being able to truck it up through the middle effectively then players like Simmonds or Earl wouldn't be the worst choices to line up there. Obviously there are nuances to the position that are difficult to pick up later in life, but I wouldn't say players like that have any more limited a skillset than Tuilagi who is generally used as either a battering ram or decoy, especially when played in the 12 channel.

If we could nab a few such guys earlier and train them appropriately we might have a few more options that are closer to a Jauzion or a Nonu (who was nowhere near being well rounded at the start of his career, but became one of the best ever 12s in time), than a Francis or a Noon.

It'd be interesting to know what's going on at top schools, DPP, Academy level in that position? Do the bigger lads simply love playing in the back row? Coaches also steering them toward it or even mobile hookers? (I even see that here top teams wanting their Schalk Brits, Dane Coles, etc... essentially another 8 like, I think, had been done with Barbeary). Maybe teams opt to stick another fly half type there? I even wonder if some prospects are going straight to the wing... big, fast, raw... we've got another Lomu on our hands (no need to learn handling, midfield defence, tactical kicking when you're running over skinny teens).

No idea, but I sometimes wonder if 'pathways' are often more focused on the now and not the future?

[SaintK]

Beginning of the end............................one hopes!

Ben Youngs faces an uncertain Test future after he was dropped by England for this Sunday’s Guinness Six Nations clash with Italy. England’s most-capped men’s player made a disappointing contribution off the bench in the 29-23 defeat by Scotland that launched Steve Borthwick’s reign and will now play no part against the Azzurri.
It is the first time that he has been dropped for a Six Nations match since 2014 and it places a question mark over the 33-year-old involvement’s in the World Cup later this year. Alex Mitchell has been included in a reduced 29-man squad that will step up preparations for resurgent Italy’s visit to Twickenham in round two, providing support to first-choice scrum-half Jack van Poortvliet.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/kevin-s ... ngs/

[Raggs]

The fact that JVP started made it clear that it was the beginning of the end for me.

[Paddington Bear]

It's noticeable how the press have turned against Youngs over the last couple of years.

[geordie_6]

It's noticeable how the press have turned against Youngs over the last couple of years.

About bloody time as well.

[JM2K6]

It's weird, I still don't know what feel about England being coached by Borthwick. I'm prepared to give him loads of benefit of the doubt currently because of the bonkers scenario he's in of a) being EPS limited, and b) having the 6N as his only competitive matches before a world cup.

On one hand, he's done things like drop a lot of underperforming players, pick some form ones, and BEN YOUNGS IS GONE AFTER A TYPICALLY BEN YOUNGS PERFORMANCE OFF THE BENCH WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS MAGIC. On the other, he's still incredibly conservative in some ways, he's made a rod for his own back with the captaincy call, and his ransacking of Tigers for everyone doesn't seem to be a great sign. IMO the Smith/Farrell thing will either end up with those two being nailed on as 10/12 and proper work being done to make it "work", or will quickly become Farrell at 10 with Smith the bench impact who only gets to play with Faz at 12 unless there's an injury.

I'm feeling largely positive in general but it's all kinda confused and I suppose with little time to waste there are going to be tough decisions on selection.

- I support the dropping of Ben Curry; I think he's a better player than that but in reality Earl should have started. Earl gave away pens off the bench and I think he's always going to be a little loose, but he immediately had a lot of impact and has a much higher ceiling; he's in superb form too.
- I wouldn't support dropping Dombrandt, because our other 8 options aren't really suitable, he did some excellent stuff outside of the mistakes, and he normally has great hands (defence being suspect occasionally is A Thing, though).
- Related to Dombrandt, Ludlum seems like a natural 6 and I've hated him at 7/8 in the past. He's a big high energy smasher and hard carrier. Keep him as a 6 option. Ted Hill and Lawes should be the competition.
- Youngs being binned off is perfect and I don't care who we put on the bench. We could literally pick one of Mitchell, Spencer, Robson, Quirke (in bad form), or Porter (obligatory future-Quins reference) and it'd be an upgrade.
- I support Murley being cut for Arundell. I think we're all aware that Arundell is a potential generational talent and has the highest ceiling of any of our back 3 options, by some distance. Murley has many strengths to his game but his weaknesses (kicking, and he's short) don't work with Borthwick's approach as well as the other options.
- Mako I think should be binned off for Rodd and Rapava-Ruskin as soon as possible. He just doesn't bring the energy and workrate any more. These guys are so high impact these days and Mako's USP isn't all that U. No, I'm not advocating for Marler; he blotted his copybook one too many times this season, even if he has been playing well, and there's an aspect of planning for the future in everything England are doing.
- We need another tighthead who can scrummage.
- I don't know what to do about OHC; I'd not have him ahead of Arundell at any point but I don't agree with dropping a guy who deserved the start based on extended form just because he had a quiet game
- I don't know what to do about Jack Willis. I feel like he should've been England's go-to for a few seasons now, but Tom Curry's had the 7 shirt sewn up and 6 has been a weird time under Eddie. Willis is good enough to play all 3 back row positions. Being harsh I'd say he's maybe a touch slow for 8 but if he can bring anything like his 'A' game to the international stage then it does not matter. Ideally he'd play 7, but Ben Earl deserves the shirt and all things being equal I'd prefer the pacier option; he's a better player than Ludlum but do we get hurt at the lineout if he plays 6?
- I have no idea what we can expect to see once Cockerill departs

[sockwithaticket]

- I don't know what to do about Jack Willis. I feel like he should've been England's go-to for a few seasons now, but Tom Curry's had the 7 shirt sewn up and 6 has been a weird time under Eddie. Willis is good enough to play all 3 back row positions. Being harsh I'd say he's maybe a touch slow for 8 but if he can bring anything like his 'A' game to the international stage then it does not matter. Ideally he'd play 7, but Ben Earl deserves the shirt and all things being equal I'd prefer the pacier option; he's a better player than Ludlum but do we get hurt at the lineout if he plays 6?

He jumped fairly regularly for Wasps and from the stats* I can find he and Ludlam are both 6' 3 with Willis being slightly lighter, so I wouldn't have thought it would cost us anything. He and Thomas Young were a great 6 and 7 combo for a while at club level, a pairing with Earl would be quite similar.

*normal caveats apply.

[Paddington Bear]

In a non-exhaustive response:
Borthwick has dropped Nowell, May, Vunipola and now Youngs among others, these are gutsier calls than we think they are given how shallow a lot of rugby analysis and fandom is. I guarantee loads of people at home were asking where the first three were on Saturday. No disagreement on Faz as captain, we are badly missing Lawes' leadership IMO.
- Dombrandt/Ludlam. People have bad games and Dombrandt grew into the contest. You'd like to think he won't have the handling issues again. Ludlum was superb at 6 so let's keep him there and bank that success IMO, and Borthwick deserves plenty of credit for bringing in a bloke it is fair to say I think none of us were calling to play. Earl should start as well IMO.
- We have to give Arundell caps if we're expecting big things of him in big matches soon. Let's assume at our current trajectory we're looking at going in as firm underdogs to a semi vs France/NZ/Ireland, he's the kind of player who feasibly could turn that game on it's head. So he has to play whenever he's available.
- Mako saved himself due to his work ball in hand vs NZ, whether that's a good thing remains to be seen. Again, Rodd/RR need caps.
- I don't think you can drop OHC without wildly denting his confidence. He clearly wasn't sure what was expected of him in an England shirt so hopefully that changes. Give him the next two games (and the ball) and see where we are.
- I think the bigger question is how much of his time is Borthwick devoting to the lineout, which has been disappointing but was our most deadly weapon during his tenure as forward's coach. We haven't been the same since and it's no coincidence.

Overall, I have a feeling we will grow into this tournament, and have a high degree of confidence that we will turn over France at HQ and hopefully make Ireland sweat in Dublin. The two biggest failings Saturday were defence and lineouts, and we have two excellent coaches in those areas. You'd like to think over the next month much of this gets ironed out.

[dpedin]

In a non-exhaustive response:
Borthwick has dropped Nowell, May, Vunipola and now Youngs among others, these are gutsier calls than we think they are given how shallow a lot of rugby analysis and fandom is. I guarantee loads of people at home were asking where the first three were on Saturday. No disagreement on Faz as captain, we are badly missing Lawes' leadership IMO.
- Dombrandt/Ludlam. People have bad games and Dombrandt grew into the contest. You'd like to think he won't have the handling issues again. Ludlum was superb at 6 so let's keep him there and bank that success IMO, and Borthwick deserves plenty of credit for bringing in a bloke it is fair to say I think none of us were calling to play. Earl should start as well IMO.
- We have to give Arundell caps if we're expecting big things of him in big matches soon. Let's assume at our current trajectory we're looking at going in as firm underdogs to a semi vs France/NZ/Ireland, he's the kind of player who feasibly could turn that game on it's head. So he has to play whenever he's available.
- Mako saved himself due to his work ball in hand vs NZ, whether that's a good thing remains to be seen. Again, Rodd/RR need caps.
- I don't think you can drop OHC without wildly denting his confidence. He clearly wasn't sure what was expected of him in an England shirt so hopefully that changes. Give him the next two games (and the ball) and see where we are.
- I think the bigger question is how much of his time is Borthwick devoting to the lineout, which has been disappointing but was our most deadly weapon during his tenure as forward's coach. We haven't been the same since and it's no coincidence.

Overall, I have a feeling we will grow into this tournament, and have a high degree of confidence that we will turn over France at HQ and hopefully make Ireland sweat in Dublin. The two biggest failings Saturday were defence and lineouts, and we have two excellent coaches in those areas. You'd like to think over the next month much of this gets ironed out.

Borthwick doesn't seem to be too averse to making some changes but I suspect he needs to be even braver.

For me the biggest challenge for England v Ireland is the pace of the game and the ability or willingness of the English pack to get back up and keep their defensive line intact. Ireland play a very quick game around the ruck and will be quite happy to go through numerous phases in possession so England need to keep defensive discipline, not enter rucks unnecessarily and get back to their feet and slot into defensive position quickly. Against Scotland they tired towards the end of the match and lost that discipline, Ireland will be far more ruthless than Scotland were. They will score a try of two against Ireland but it all depends how many they concede, defence is key.

[Raggs]

Watching through the rest of the scotland game and just noticed, Chessum, as well as going up for a lot of the lineouts, was also playing tighthead lock. Really impressive from the young lock.

[Hal Jordan]

Watching through the rest of the scotland game and just noticed, Chessum, as well as going up for a lot of the lineouts, was also playing tighthead lock. Really impressive from the young lock.

Hopefully Borthwick keeps him at lock and doesn't shit the bed and pick him at 6 and Isiekwe at lock because lineout something something.

[Raggs]

Watching through the rest of the scotland game and just noticed, Chessum, as well as going up for a lot of the lineouts, was also playing tighthead lock. Really impressive from the young lock.

Hopefully Borthwick keeps him at lock and doesn't shit the bed and pick him at 6 and Isiekwe at lock because lineout something something.

I suspect it'll take something to move your tighthead lock to backrow. Doesn't necessarily mean he won't put someone tall at 6 though.

[geordie_6]

Watching through the rest of the scotland game and just noticed, Chessum, as well as going up for a lot of the lineouts, was also playing tighthead lock. Really impressive from the young lock.

Hopefully Borthwick keeps him at lock and doesn't shit the bed and pick him at 6 and Isiekwe at lock because lineout something something.

I suspect it'll take something to move your tighthead lock to backrow. Doesn't necessarily mean he won't put someone tall at 6 though.

Team announcement tomorrow presumably?

[Ovals]

Hopefully Borthwick keeps him at lock and doesn't shit the bed and pick him at 6 and Isiekwe at lock because lineout something something.

I suspect it'll take something to move your tighthead lock to backrow. Doesn't necessarily mean he won't put someone tall at 6 though.

Team announcement tomorrow presumably?

Read that it was to be announced Friday (Sunday match).

[Hal Jordan]

Why do we always announce so late?

[Ovals]

Why do we always announce so late?

It's odd because the team are told well before. I guess they just want to keep the oppo guessing as long as poss - can't see it makes any difference though.

[charltom]

Two days before the match, usually.

[Raggs]

Yeah, two days before is quite typical, it's just Wales/Gatland that sometimes announces really early.

[Ovals]

The Independent are predicting

Predicted line-ups

England XV: Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler; Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum; Lewis Ludlam, Jack Willis, Alex Dombrandt; Jack van Poortvliet, Owen Farrell (capt.); Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Max Malins; Freddie Steward.


Replacements: Jack Walker, Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl; Alex Mitchell, Marcus Smith, Henry Arundell.

Hope they're wrong about Isiekwe and it's actually Ribbans on the bench. And I still reckon it'll be a Smith/Farrell 10/12.

[Kawazaki]

In a non-exhaustive response:
Borthwick has dropped Nowell, May, Vunipola and now Youngs among others, these are gutsier calls than we think they are given how shallow a lot of rugby analysis and fandom is. I guarantee loads of people at home were asking where the first three were on Saturday. No disagreement on Faz as captain, we are badly missing Lawes' leadership IMO.
- Dombrandt/Ludlam. People have bad games and Dombrandt grew into the contest. You'd like to think he won't have the handling issues again. Ludlum was superb at 6 so let's keep him there and bank that success IMO, and Borthwick deserves plenty of credit for bringing in a bloke it is fair to say I think none of us were calling to play. Earl should start as well IMO.
- We have to give Arundell caps if we're expecting big things of him in big matches soon. Let's assume at our current trajectory we're looking at going in as firm underdogs to a semi vs France/NZ/Ireland, he's the kind of player who feasibly could turn that game on it's head. So he has to play whenever he's available.
- Mako saved himself due to his work ball in hand vs NZ, whether that's a good thing remains to be seen. Again, Rodd/RR need caps.
- I don't think you can drop OHC without wildly denting his confidence. He clearly wasn't sure what was expected of him in an England shirt so hopefully that changes. Give him the next two games (and the ball) and see where we are.
- I think the bigger question is how much of his time is Borthwick devoting to the lineout, which has been disappointing but was our most deadly weapon during his tenure as forward's coach. We haven't been the same since and it's no coincidence.

Overall, I have a feeling we will grow into this tournament, and have a high degree of confidence that we will turn over France at HQ and hopefully make Ireland sweat in Dublin. The two biggest failings Saturday were defence and lineouts, and we have two excellent coaches in those areas. You'd like to think over the next month much of this gets ironed out.

Borthwick doesn't seem to be too averse to making some changes but I suspect he needs to be even braver.

For me the biggest challenge for England v Ireland is the pace of the game and the ability or willingness of the English pack to get back up and keep their defensive line intact. Ireland play a very quick game around the ruck and will be quite happy to go through numerous phases in possession so England need to keep defensive discipline, not enter rucks unnecessarily and get back to their feet and slot into defensive position quickly. Against Scotland they tired towards the end of the match and lost that discipline, Ireland will be far more ruthless than Scotland were. They will score a try of two against Ireland but it all depends how many they concede, defence is key.

Ireland look in a different league physically. All of them have hard bodies and they're huge. I'm not saying they're on something they shouldn't be but their body shapes look different to just about any other team, even the Saffas.

I can't see England staying within 15 points of them.

[Paddington Bear]

The Independent are predicting

Predicted line-ups

England XV: Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler; Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum; Lewis Ludlam, Jack Willis, Alex Dombrandt; Jack van Poortvliet, Owen Farrell (capt.); Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Max Malins; Freddie Steward.


Replacements: Jack Walker, Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl; Alex Mitchell, Marcus Smith, Henry Arundell.

Hope they're wrong about Isiekwe and it's actually Ribbans on the bench. And I still reckon it'll be a Smith/Farrell 10/12.

Disagree, Borthwick, Evans and Sinfield all made it reasonably clear Faz/Smith wasn't their plan A or B so I'd put very good money on them not partnering up. With that said, I'd put a tenner on us going into the world cup with Ford/Faz

[Ovals]

The Independent are predicting

Predicted line-ups

England XV: Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler; Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum; Lewis Ludlam, Jack Willis, Alex Dombrandt; Jack van Poortvliet, Owen Farrell (capt.); Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Max Malins; Freddie Steward.


Replacements: Jack Walker, Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl; Alex Mitchell, Marcus Smith, Henry Arundell.

Hope they're wrong about Isiekwe and it's actually Ribbans on the bench. And I still reckon it'll be a Smith/Farrell 10/12.

Disagree, Borthwick, Evans and Sinfield all made it reasonably clear Faz/Smith wasn't their plan A or B so I'd put very good money on them not partnering up. With that said, I'd put a tenner on us going into the world cup with Ford/Faz

I thought the same, prioer to the Scotland game - but they had the same options available to them - albeit Lawrence hadn't been in camp very long and there was no Slade. Be interesting to see how they get on if they do decide to make that change. Just hope that when Smith comes on, Farrell goes off - but I doubt it.

[sockwithaticket]

The Independent are predicting

Predicted line-ups

England XV: Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler; Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum; Lewis Ludlam, Jack Willis, Alex Dombrandt; Jack van Poortvliet, Owen Farrell (capt.); Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Max Malins; Freddie Steward.


Replacements: Jack Walker, Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl; Alex Mitchell, Marcus Smith, Henry Arundell.

Hope they're wrong about Isiekwe and it's actually Ribbans on the bench. And I still reckon it'll be a Smith/Farrell 10/12.

Disagree, Borthwick, Evans and Sinfield all made it reasonably clear Faz/Smith wasn't their plan A or B so I'd put very good money on them not partnering up. With that said, I'd put a tenner on us going into the world cup with Ford/Faz

I'm gagging for Ford to come back.

[JM2K6]

In a non-exhaustive response:
Borthwick has dropped Nowell, May, Vunipola and now Youngs among others, these are gutsier calls than we think they are given how shallow a lot of rugby analysis and fandom is. I guarantee loads of people at home were asking where the first three were on Saturday. No disagreement on Faz as captain, we are badly missing Lawes' leadership IMO.
- Dombrandt/Ludlam. People have bad games and Dombrandt grew into the contest. You'd like to think he won't have the handling issues again. Ludlum was superb at 6 so let's keep him there and bank that success IMO, and Borthwick deserves plenty of credit for bringing in a bloke it is fair to say I think none of us were calling to play. Earl should start as well IMO.
- We have to give Arundell caps if we're expecting big things of him in big matches soon. Let's assume at our current trajectory we're looking at going in as firm underdogs to a semi vs France/NZ/Ireland, he's the kind of player who feasibly could turn that game on it's head. So he has to play whenever he's available.
- Mako saved himself due to his work ball in hand vs NZ, whether that's a good thing remains to be seen. Again, Rodd/RR need caps.
- I don't think you can drop OHC without wildly denting his confidence. He clearly wasn't sure what was expected of him in an England shirt so hopefully that changes. Give him the next two games (and the ball) and see where we are.
- I think the bigger question is how much of his time is Borthwick devoting to the lineout, which has been disappointing but was our most deadly weapon during his tenure as forward's coach. We haven't been the same since and it's no coincidence.

Overall, I have a feeling we will grow into this tournament, and have a high degree of confidence that we will turn over France at HQ and hopefully make Ireland sweat in Dublin. The two biggest failings Saturday were defence and lineouts, and we have two excellent coaches in those areas. You'd like to think over the next month much of this gets ironed out.

Yeah this all seems reasonable enough to me. For your last paragraph, I have no confidence in that but that's more down to my total unfamiliarity with what I think Borthwick is trying to achieve; I can't even say for certain that he's not decided to throw this 6N and try as many things as possible. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[JM2K6]

The Independent are predicting

Predicted line-ups

England XV: Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler; Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum; Lewis Ludlam, Jack Willis, Alex Dombrandt; Jack van Poortvliet, Owen Farrell (capt.); Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ollie Lawrence, Henry Slade, Max Malins; Freddie Steward.


Replacements: Jack Walker, Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Nick Isiekwe, Ben Earl; Alex Mitchell, Marcus Smith, Henry Arundell.

Hope they're wrong about Isiekwe and it's actually Ribbans on the bench. And I still reckon it'll be a Smith/Farrell 10/12.

Disagree, Borthwick, Evans and Sinfield all made it reasonably clear Faz/Smith wasn't their plan A or B so I'd put very good money on them not partnering up. With that said, I'd put a tenner on us going into the world cup with Ford/Faz

When did they do that? Evans immediately started talking up how they could play together, for example.

[Kawazaki]

Just hope that when Smith comes on, Farrell goes off

Then you'll see a similar lineup to what you saw in last year's championship or 'the forgotten matches' as I'm considering calling them...

[Ovals]

Just hope that when Smith comes on, Farrell goes off

Then you'll see a similar lineup to what you saw in last year's championship or 'the forgotten matches' as I'm considering calling them...

Yep, I'd be happy with that - with a better selected and coached team. I'd also add that I'm happy to see Farrell starting at FH despite many previous disappointments - again, with a better selected and coached team.

[Niegs]

Wuss' group looking to snatch up club likely to be relegated from National Leagues? Sounds a bit like what some Prem clubs did to get into the women's Prem15s... snatch up the players of a local club when you don't have any, give them the resources to rise up, then re-brand them.

https://www.stourbridgenews.co.uk/news/ ... new-plans/

[Kawazaki]

Wuss' group looking to snatch up club likely to be relegated from National Leagues? Sounds a bit like what some Prem clubs did to get into the women's Prem15s... snatch up the players of a local club when you don't have any, give them the resources to rise up, then re-brand them.

https://www.stourbridgenews.co.uk/news/ ... new-plans/

And this way they don't have to pay the Worcester Warriors creditors.

Shithouse.