NPR

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:56 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:51 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:18 pm Has Rishi found an excuse for not sacking Dim Dom yet ?

He's not a bully?

Threw a tomato in a bin and said someone’s work wasn’t good enough - shocking stuff

Still comes over generally as a bit of a cunt mind!

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:56 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:51 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:18 pm Has Rishi found an excuse for not sacking Dim Dom yet ?

He's not a bully?

Threw a tomato in a bin and said someone’s work wasn’t good enough - shocking stuff

In these situations I personally prefer to see the evidence before making an arse of myself with childish comments.
But that's just me.

C69 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:13 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:56 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:51 pm

He's not a bully?

Threw a tomato in a bin and said someone’s work wasn’t good enough - shocking stuff

In these situations I personally prefer to see the evidence before making an arse of myself with childish comments.
But that's just me.

Maybe Rishi tried to sack Raab today but Raab threatened to give him a thoroughgoing wedgie and he backed down

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:31 pm Maybe Rishi tried to sack Raab today but Raab threatened to give him a thoroughgoing wedgie and he backed down

Well it worked for Cruella

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:51 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:18 pm Has Rishi found an excuse for not sacking Dim Dom yet ?

He's not a bully?

I admire your loyalty, but you're just wrong here.

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:20 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:51 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:18 pm Has Rishi found an excuse for not sacking Dim Dom yet ?

He's not a bully?

I admire your loyalty, but you're just wrong here.

What do you know that we don’t?

Edit: yeah, I am being loyal. I’ve been friends with Dom since we were 14, we share a best man, and were joint best man at that friends wedding. I still count him as a good friend and he is a good man with a fantastic wife and very grounded kids.

He was bullied pretty badly at school then went away and became fucking nails, but never in all the years I’ve known him either at school or after have I ever seen him use that to cause trouble or bully people. Quite the opposite in fact, I’ve been with him twice when he has intervened when someone was getting attacked and apart from in the boxing ring never seen him throw his weight around.

He is actually shy but can be intense and even back in the days when he worked for David Davies he’d get very frustrated with his peers who he didn’t think were doing their jobs. I think a guy who is Foreign Secretary and Deputy PM has the right to expect the best people around him. There is obviously an issue with how he managed certain people, but there are loads of others who say he is the best Minister they have worked with, which is probably what is saving him at the moment.

I don’t agree with him on pretty much anything politically, but he also must be one of the only senior politicians over the last few years that hasn’t been caught up in any sleaze or dodgy deals, and it won’t happen.

So I do get a bit defensive when people judge his character on what they read in the papers. Fire away if you want to berate him on policy though

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:55 pm

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:20 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:51 pm

He's not a bully?

I admire your loyalty, but you're just wrong here.

What do you know that we don’t?

A friend is in the report

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:05 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:55 pm

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:20 pm

I admire your loyalty, but you're just wrong here.

What do you know that we don’t?

A friend is in the report

See above

It's all getting a bit anecdotal now, but my mate who's quite a senior civil servant has already tendered his resignation if raab is retained. And he says he's not alone.

Come on. If the report had exonerated him, we'd have known within 5 minutes. This is all internal tory power mongering bollocks.

Oh, and as an aside, has anyone noticed that raab is no longer referred to as an ex Linklater's lawyer? He trained with them but that's it. The partners were getting pretty upset being linked with him and maybe used some influenc

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:30 pm It's all getting a bit anecdotal now, but my mate who's quite a senior civil servant has already tendered his resignation if raab is retained. And he says he's not alone.

Come on. If the report had exonerated him, we'd have known within 5 minutes. This is all internal tory power mongering bollocks.

Oh, and as an aside, has anyone noticed that raab is no longer referred to as an ex Linklater's lawyer? He trained with them but that's it. The partners were getting pretty upset being linked with him and maybe used some influenc

I dunno, my feeling is that if he was going he would be gone. An overnight takes the sting out of it and makes it easier for Sunak to keep him. But who knows. I see some “officials” are saying the report is terrible and others that these is nothing much to see.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:55 pm He is actually shy but can be intense and even back in the days when he worked for David Davies he’d get very frustrated with his peers who he didn’t think were doing their jobs.

And there I'm afraid you have the problem.

There are jobs where being intense is great, but they're general places were you are independent, & don't have to work thru others; but I'll be buggered if I can think of anywhere in Politics where that happens. The bottom line is he doesn't have the aptitude, or the skills, or most importantly, the temperament to be a Government Minister ! He'd probably be a great MP, but once he has to work thru others, he's going to fail.

The killer for me was the Afghan debacle; where Civil Servants were afraid to contact him, because he'd built up walls between himself & his dept, to the point where only a select few were allowed to contact him, & as a result he was on the beach blissfully unaware while Kabul went to shit.

I appreciate you're a mate but sorry, three Ministries, two dozen complaints, & a five month investigation; it's not them, it's him

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:44 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:55 pm He is actually shy but can be intense and even back in the days when he worked for David Davies he’d get very frustrated with his peers who he didn’t think were doing their jobs.

And there I'm afraid you have the problem.

There are jobs where being intense is great, but they're general places were you are independent, & don't have to work thru others; but I'll be buggered if I can think of anywhere in Politics where that happens. The bottom line is he doesn't have the aptitude, or the skills, or most importantly, the temperament to be a Government Minister ! He'd probably be a great MP, but once he has to work thru others, he's going to fail.

The killer for me was the Afghan debacle; where Civil Servants were afraid to contact him, because he'd built up walls between himself & his dept, to the point where only a select few were allowed to contact him, & as a result he was on the beach blissfully unaware while Kabul went to shit.

I appreciate you're a mate but sorry, three Ministries, two dozen complaints, & a five month investigation; it's not them, it's him

He was definitely not blissfully unaware btw

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:44 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:55 pm He is actually shy but can be intense and even back in the days when he worked for David Davies he’d get very frustrated with his peers who he didn’t think were doing their jobs.

And there I'm afraid you have the problem.

There are jobs where being intense is great, but they're general places were you are independent, & don't have to work thru others; but I'll be buggered if I can think of anywhere in Politics where that happens. The bottom line is he doesn't have the aptitude, or the skills, or most importantly, the temperament to be a Government Minister ! He'd probably be a great MP, but once he has to work thru others, he's going to fail.

The killer for me was the Afghan debacle; where Civil Servants were afraid to contact him, because he'd built up walls between himself & his dept, to the point where only a select few were allowed to contact him, & as a result he was on the beach blissfully unaware while Kabul went to shit.

I appreciate you're a mate but sorry, three Ministries, two dozen complaints, & a five month investigation; it's not them, it's him

Well, he’s been Deputy PM under 2 separate governments, held one of the high offices of state and been in Ministerial or Junior Ministerial positions under 4 separate PM’s, so some seem to think he has more aptitude, skills and temperament than you, obviously.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:09 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:44 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:55 pm He is actually shy but can be intense and even back in the days when he worked for David Davies he’d get very frustrated with his peers who he didn’t think were doing their jobs.

And there I'm afraid you have the problem.

There are jobs where being intense is great, but they're general places were you are independent, & don't have to work thru others; but I'll be buggered if I can think of anywhere in Politics where that happens. The bottom line is he doesn't have the aptitude, or the skills, or most importantly, the temperament to be a Government Minister ! He'd probably be a great MP, but once he has to work thru others, he's going to fail.

The killer for me was the Afghan debacle; where Civil Servants were afraid to contact him, because he'd built up walls between himself & his dept, to the point where only a select few were allowed to contact him, & as a result he was on the beach blissfully unaware while Kabul went to shit.

I appreciate you're a mate but sorry, three Ministries, two dozen complaints, & a five month investigation; it's not them, it's him

Well, he’s been Deputy PM under 2 separate governments, held one of the high offices of state and been in Ministerial or Junior Ministerial positions under 4 separate PM’s, so some seem to think he has more aptitude, skills and temperament than you, obviously.

These same people thought David Davis, Chris Grayling, JRM, Cruella, David Frost et al were also suitable candidates for incredibly important jobs .....

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:09 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:44 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:55 pm He is actually shy but can be intense and even back in the days when he worked for David Davies he’d get very frustrated with his peers who he didn’t think were doing their jobs.

And there I'm afraid you have the problem.

There are jobs where being intense is great, but they're general places were you are independent, & don't have to work thru others; but I'll be buggered if I can think of anywhere in Politics where that happens. The bottom line is he doesn't have the aptitude, or the skills, or most importantly, the temperament to be a Government Minister ! He'd probably be a great MP, but once he has to work thru others, he's going to fail.

The killer for me was the Afghan debacle; where Civil Servants were afraid to contact him, because he'd built up walls between himself & his dept, to the point where only a select few were allowed to contact him, & as a result he was on the beach blissfully unaware while Kabul went to shit.

I appreciate you're a mate but sorry, three Ministries, two dozen complaints, & a five month investigation; it's not them, it's him

Well, he’s been Deputy PM under 2 separate governments, held one of the high offices of state and been in Ministerial or Junior Ministerial positions under 4 separate PM’s, so some seem to think he has more aptitude, skills and temperament than you, obviously.

You've not thought that defence through properly

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:03 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:44 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:55 pm He is actually shy but can be intense and even back in the days when he worked for David Davies he’d get very frustrated with his peers who he didn’t think were doing their jobs.

And there I'm afraid you have the problem.

There are jobs where being intense is great, but they're general places were you are independent, & don't have to work thru others; but I'll be buggered if I can think of anywhere in Politics where that happens. The bottom line is he doesn't have the aptitude, or the skills, or most importantly, the temperament to be a Government Minister ! He'd probably be a great MP, but once he has to work thru others, he's going to fail.

The killer for me was the Afghan debacle; where Civil Servants were afraid to contact him, because he'd built up walls between himself & his dept, to the point where only a select few were allowed to contact him, & as a result he was on the beach blissfully unaware while Kabul went to shit.

I appreciate you're a mate but sorry, three Ministries, two dozen complaints, & a five month investigation; it's not them, it's him

He was definitely not blissfully unaware btw

Your mate sounds like just the type of civil servant you want in your team

Anyway, enough now.

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:17 pm

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:03 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:44 pm

And there I'm afraid you have the problem.

There are jobs where being intense is great, but they're general places were you are independent, & don't have to work thru others; but I'll be buggered if I can think of anywhere in Politics where that happens. The bottom line is he doesn't have the aptitude, or the skills, or most importantly, the temperament to be a Government Minister ! He'd probably be a great MP, but once he has to work thru others, he's going to fail.

The killer for me was the Afghan debacle; where Civil Servants were afraid to contact him, because he'd built up walls between himself & his dept, to the point where only a select few were allowed to contact him, & as a result he was on the beach blissfully unaware while Kabul went to shit.

I appreciate you're a mate but sorry, three Ministries, two dozen complaints, & a five month investigation; it's not them, it's him

He was definitely not blissfully unaware btw

Your mate sounds like just the type of civil servant you want in your team

What on earth do you mean by that?

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:19 pm Anyway, enough now.

Probably for the best.

It is 100% certain that Raab is dead meat. If the report had said there was no case to answer, Rishi would have sprinted to the podium to announce it. Right now the delay is to give them time to plan damage control, get rid as gracefully as possible and get his successor announced.

Re: Linklaters there’s a decent chance Raab learned his management style from City law which is not exactly touchy feely. I can imagine that isn’t par for the course in much of the civil service but doesn’t make someone a bully.
There has to be more to the report than has been made public, most of the allegations I’ve seen are very very thing gruel and stink of a political disagreement.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:23 am Re: Linklaters there’s a decent chance Raab learned his management style from City law which is not exactly touchy feely. I can imagine that isn’t par for the course in much of the civil service but doesn’t make someone a bully.
There has to be more to the report than has been made public, most of the allegations I’ve seen are very very thing gruel and stink of a political disagreement.

Straight from being a trainee to the FCO, so unlikely

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:01 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:23 am Re: Linklaters there’s a decent chance Raab learned his management style from City law which is not exactly touchy feely. I can imagine that isn’t par for the course in much of the civil service but doesn’t make someone a bully.
There has to be more to the report than has been made public, most of the allegations I’ve seen are very very thing gruel and stink of a political disagreement.

Straight from being a trainee to the FCO, so unlikely

More than enough time to absorb the hard headed badassery that is management in City Law. Snowflakes need not apply.

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:01 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:23 am Re: Linklaters there’s a decent chance Raab learned his management style from City law which is not exactly touchy feely. I can imagine that isn’t par for the course in much of the civil service but doesn’t make someone a bully.
There has to be more to the report than has been made public, most of the allegations I’ve seen are very very thing gruel and stink of a political disagreement.

Straight from being a trainee to the FCO, so unlikely

Someone’s first proper job is a huge influence on their career, particularly somewhere that would have had him working round the clock. See any corporate where anyone with two years at McKinsey/Bain/any of the Big 4 etc won’t stop talking about how they did things there.

My missus is a senior partner in the big 4 consulting.

In her entire professional career she has never shouted at or bullied anyone.

She is highly regarded and respected by her teams and has worked on massive projects in some very tricky areas.

yermum wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:42 am My missus is a senior partner in the big 4 consulting.

In her entire professional career she has never shouted at or bullied anyone.

She is highly regarded and respected by her teams and has worked on massive projects in some very tricky areas.

Fair play to her. Having never shouted at someone and made it that far puts her in the minority of her colleagues that I have come across.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:44 am

yermum wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:42 am My missus is a senior partner in the big 4 consulting.

In her entire professional career she has never shouted at or bullied anyone.

She is highly regarded and respected by her teams and has worked on massive projects in some very tricky areas.

Fair play to her. Having never shouted at someone and made it that far puts her in the minority of her colleagues that I have come across.

I think she does a good line in bear stares and saying she is disappointed in people. Far more scary

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:31 am

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:01 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:23 am Re: Linklaters there’s a decent chance Raab learned his management style from City law which is not exactly touchy feely. I can imagine that isn’t par for the course in much of the civil service but doesn’t make someone a bully.
There has to be more to the report than has been made public, most of the allegations I’ve seen are very very thing gruel and stink of a political disagreement.

Straight from being a trainee to the FCO, so unlikely

More than enough time to absorb the hard headed badassery that is management in City Law. Snowflakes need not apply.

Yeah but he definitely got canned from Links so maybe he is the snowflake.

yermum wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:47 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:44 am

yermum wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:42 am My missus is a senior partner in the big 4 consulting.

In her entire professional career she has never shouted at or bullied anyone.

She is highly regarded and respected by her teams and has worked on massive projects in some very tricky areas.

Fair play to her. Having never shouted at someone and made it that far puts her in the minority of her colleagues that I have come across.

I think she does a good line in bear stares and saying she is disappointed in people. Far more scary

Sounds like you have some experience of being on the wrong side of it

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:36 am

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:01 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:23 am Re: Linklaters there’s a decent chance Raab learned his management style from City law which is not exactly touchy feely. I can imagine that isn’t par for the course in much of the civil service but doesn’t make someone a bully.
There has to be more to the report than has been made public, most of the allegations I’ve seen are very very thing gruel and stink of a political disagreement.

Straight from being a trainee to the FCO, so unlikely

Someone’s first proper job is a huge influence on their career, particularly somewhere that would have had him working round the clock. See any corporate where anyone with two years at McKinsey/Bain/any of the Big 4 etc won’t stop talking about how they did things there.

I know a few people towards the top of those firms (and others) and law firms. Where that type of behaviour may have been more prevalent 25/30 years ago, it has been stamped down on, and hard.

Is your defence of raab that he's a dinosaur who can't change?

(Slightly, but not wholly, tongue in cheek)

Oh, he's goooone

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:52 am

yermum wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:47 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:44 am

Fair play to her. Having never shouted at someone and made it that far puts her in the minority of her colleagues that I have come across.

I think she does a good line in bear stares and saying she is disappointed in people. Far more scary

Sounds like you have some experience of being on the wrong side of it

Yep I know when I have really fucked up when the disappointed chat starts.

Gone, resigned

yermum wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:57 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:52 am

yermum wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:47 am
I think she does a good line in bear stares and saying she is disappointed in people. Far more scary

Sounds like you have some experience of being on the wrong side of it

Yep I know when I have really fucked up when the disappointed chat starts.

you're really in trouble if that chat happens in the bedroom....

sturginho wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:57 am Gone, resigned

Good!

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:55 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:36 am

Happyhooker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:01 am

Straight from being a trainee to the FCO, so unlikely

Someone’s first proper job is a huge influence on their career, particularly somewhere that would have had him working round the clock. See any corporate where anyone with two years at McKinsey/Bain/any of the Big 4 etc won’t stop talking about how they did things there.

I know a few people towards the top of those firms (and others) and law firms. Where that type of behaviour may have been more prevalent 25/30 years ago, it has been stamped down on, and hard.

Is your defence of raab that he's a dinosaur who can't change?

(Slightly, but not wholly, tongue in cheek)

Oh, he's goooone

I don't doubt that things have softened, but I can confirm that my recent i.e. yesterday afternoon experience of cocking up in this sort of environment will still result in a fairly severe bollocking.
The massive increase in women at all levels in that same timeframe has almost certainly changed the manner in which this happens as well, less macho but in some ways nastier.

I am genuinely sorry for any unintended stress or offence that any officials felt, as a result of the pace, standards and challenge that I brought to the Ministry of Justice.

Says man who sat on a beach whilst something under his direct purview descended into chaos...

Brazil wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:06 am

I am genuinely sorry for any unintended stress or offence that any officials felt, as a result of the pace, standards and challenge that I brought to the Ministry of Justice.

Says man who sat on a beach whilst something under his direct purview descended into chaos...

But the "sea was closed"

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:15 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:09 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:44 pm

And there I'm afraid you have the problem.

There are jobs where being intense is great, but they're general places were you are independent, & don't have to work thru others; but I'll be buggered if I can think of anywhere in Politics where that happens. The bottom line is he doesn't have the aptitude, or the skills, or most importantly, the temperament to be a Government Minister ! He'd probably be a great MP, but once he has to work thru others, he's going to fail.

The killer for me was the Afghan debacle; where Civil Servants were afraid to contact him, because he'd built up walls between himself & his dept, to the point where only a select few were allowed to contact him, & as a result he was on the beach blissfully unaware while Kabul went to shit.

I appreciate you're a mate but sorry, three Ministries, two dozen complaints, & a five month investigation; it's not them, it's him

Well, he’s been Deputy PM under 2 separate governments, held one of the high offices of state and been in Ministerial or Junior Ministerial positions under 4 separate PM’s, so some seem to think he has more aptitude, skills and temperament than you, obviously.

These same people thought David Davis, Chris Grayling, JRM, Cruella, David Frost et al were also suitable candidates for incredibly important jobs .....

Let's not forget Coffey. It's pretty clear that competence and aptitude haven't been requirements in the cabinet for at least a few years.

SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:59 am

sturginho wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:57 am Gone, resigned

Good!

He will be off to the Lords