The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[charltom]

Very clever.

I can't see it well enough on my phone to be sure, but is that legal?

Completely illegal but easy to con a bad ref.

Bloody outrageous. Worth showing to the ref if we meet them during the RWC. And another reason I am very glad not to be a rugby ref.

[KingBlairhorn]

Farrell’s card has been rescinded.

Surely this can’t be true

Outrageous IMO - World Rugby completely bottling it and choosing commercial impact over player safety.

[Yr Alban]

Farrell’s card has been rescinded.

Surely this can’t be true

Outrageous IMO - World Rugby completely bottling it and choosing commercial impact over player safety.

As someone said over on the other thread, we all knew they would fudge it, but they have outdone themselves here.

[SomersetJock]

Farrell’s card has been rescinded.

Surely this can’t be true

Outrageous IMO - World Rugby completely bottling it and choosing commercial impact over player safety.

As someone said over on the other thread, we all knew they would fudge it, but they have outdone themselves here.

I was of the opinion that Zander’s ban was 1 or 2 matches too short, now that the laws have changed I’m thinking it was 3 matches too long !

[westport]

SCOTLAND SQUAD FOR RUGBY WORLD CUP 2023
Forwards

Ewan Ashman (Edinburgh Rugby) 8 caps
Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) 31 caps
Dave Cherry (Edinburgh Rugby) 9 caps
Luke Crosbie (Edinburgh Rugby) 5 caps
Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) 28 caps*
Rory Darge (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps
Jack Dempsey (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps
Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 35 caps
Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 59 caps*
Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) 64 caps**
Richie Gray (Glasgow Warriors) 75 caps**
WP Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) 55 caps**
Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh Rugby) – CAPTAIN – 42 caps*
Pierre Schoeman (Edinburgh Rugby) 23 caps
Javan Sebastian (Edinburgh Rugby) 5 caps
Sam Skinner (Edinburgh Rugby) 27 caps
Rory Sutherland (Unattached) 25 caps
George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) 37 caps*
Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) 58 caps*

Backs

Darcy Graham (Edinburgh Rugby) 35 caps*
Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby) 43 caps*
Ben Healy (Edinburgh Rugby) 2 caps
George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps*
Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) 38 caps
Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) 46 caps*
Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) 63 caps*
Cameron Redpath (Bath Rugby) 7 caps
Finn Russell (Bath Rugby) 71 caps**
Ollie Smith (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps
Kyle Steyn (Glasgow Warriors) 12 caps
Sione Tuipulotu (Glasgow Warriors) 18 caps
Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh Rugby) 30 caps
Ben White (RC Toulon) 15 caps

(* denotes past Rugby World Cup selection)

[clydecloggie]

The squad. Crosbie over Bayliss and McInally the hooker to miss out. As expected Dobie out at SH and Walker at prop.

[clydecloggie]

Initial thoughts: a sad ending to McInally's career. Perhaps a few seasons of not being at the top of his game weighed more heavily than his recent resurgence, or the two darts in Saturday's late game that went astray forced the issue, or he quietly did a Hogg.

Crosbie will be delighted, all the signs were it was going to go Bayliss' way.

Dobie and Walker as expected, their time will come (as will Bayliss').

Great that there was this little debate, and we're not disucssing which half-mediocre players fill out the squad - instead it's full of quality for once with players benching or not even in the 23 who would have walked into previous RWC starting teams.

[Jock42]

As expected really. I'd still have taken Dobie over Price but no complaints outwith that.

[weegie01]

I hope this means White is actually fit and not just rushed back early.

I also remain unconvinced by Ritchie as captain. Whatever other qualities he has, he just seems unable to strike the right tone with refs. I was rather surprised by the way Russell seemed to strike an easy rapport with the ref, but surely in today's game that is the most important thing for a captain?

Apart from that, as strong a squad as seen in my lifetime.

[Jock42]

I hope this means White is actually fit and not just rushed back early.

I also remain unconvinced by Ritchie as captain. Whatever other qualities he has, he just seems unable to strike the right tone with refs. I was rather surprised by the way Russell seemed to strike an easy rapport with the ref, but surely in today's game that is the most important thing for a captain?

Apart from that, as strong a squad as seen in my lifetime.

I'd agree with that re Ritchie. He's a great player but, as you say, incapable of speaking to the ref. No reason he can't be squad capt and vc on field with someone else being on field capt.

[topofthemoon]

Ins and outs for the squad compared to the 2019 group plus stats galore on the 33 player selection:

https://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/202 ... -and-outs/

[topofthemoon]

Initial thoughts: a sad ending to McInally's career. Perhaps a few seasons of not being at the top of his game weighed more heavily than his recent resurgence, or the two darts in Saturday's late game that went astray forced the issue, or he quietly did a Hogg.

Crosbie will be delighted, all the signs were it was going to go Bayliss' way.

Dobie and Walker as expected, their time will come (as will Bayliss').

Great that there was this little debate, and we're not disucssing which half-mediocre players fill out the squad - instead it's full of quality for once with players benching or not even in the 23 who would have walked into previous RWC starting teams.

Bit of a shame for Rambo but the right call I think. 50th cap against Georgia as consolation?

[KingBlairhorn]

I hope this means White is actually fit and not just rushed back early.

I also remain unconvinced by Ritchie as captain. Whatever other qualities he has, he just seems unable to strike the right tone with refs. I was rather surprised by the way Russell seemed to strike an easy rapport with the ref, but surely in today's game that is the most important thing for a captain?

Apart from that, as strong a squad as seen in my lifetime.

I'd agree with that re Ritchie. He's a great player but, as you say, incapable of speaking to the ref. No reason he can't be squad capt and vc on field with someone else being on field capt.

We probably have to be careful about reading too much into one game from Finn where he got on with the ref. I can imagine quite vividly that he might get on the tits of some refs and also come across as extremely petulant if things aren't going his way. There is a reason he fell out with Toonie so badly and I don't think it is 100% on Toonie.

[Jock42]

I hope this means White is actually fit and not just rushed back early.

I also remain unconvinced by Ritchie as captain. Whatever other qualities he has, he just seems unable to strike the right tone with refs. I was rather surprised by the way Russell seemed to strike an easy rapport with the ref, but surely in today's game that is the most important thing for a captain?

Apart from that, as strong a squad as seen in my lifetime.

I'd agree with that re Ritchie. He's a great player but, as you say, incapable of speaking to the ref. No reason he can't be squad capt and vc on field with someone else being on field capt.

We probably have to be careful about reading too much into one game from Finn where he got on with the ref. I can imagine quite vividly that he might get on the tits of some refs and also come across as extremely petulant if things aren't going his way. There is a reason he fell out with Toonie so badly and I don't think it is 100% on Toonie.

Whether Russell is made capt (although impressed with his chance he got I haven't advocated for him) it's clear that Ritchie can't communicate with refs in a game. To the extent its cost scotland field position and, imo, less obvious calls.

[Yr Alban]

Ritchie is 100% an on-field leader, but he doesn’t seem to have the knack of talking to the ref, which is so big a part of the modern captain’s role.

If this is still an issue post-RWC, it should be re-evaluated. Finn might not be every ref’s cup of tea, but it’s noticeable that none of us could remember the last time we had a captain who had any rapport with the ref at all.

[charltom]

Astonished by the number of hookers the Guardian says Scotland are taking to RWC.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -cup-squad
14!!!

[C T]

Ritchie is 100% an on-field leader, but he doesn’t seem to have the knack of talking to the ref, which is so big a part of the modern captain’s role.

If this is still an issue post-RWC, it should be re-evaluated. Finn might not be every ref’s cup of tea, but it’s noticeable that none of us could remember the last time we had a captain who had any rapport with the ref at all.

Richie's communication with the ref is quite interesting, taking last week's game as an example.

I think it started to break down when Darge was called "Too long" by the ref when jackling. I didn't really know personally that there was such a thing as too long, but OK. All I heard Richie ask was "Was his hands on the floor?" The ref wasn't interested.

I don't have a big problem with Richie asking this question or in the way he asked it, but from then he did seem to enter a more petulant mode.

The Price not being back 10 in particular stands out. I thought he came across as a moody child in that exchange.

[Simian]

Ritchie is 100% an on-field leader, but he doesn’t seem to have the knack of talking to the ref, which is so big a part of the modern captain’s role.

If this is still an issue post-RWC, it should be re-evaluated. Finn might not be every ref’s cup of tea, but it’s noticeable that none of us could remember the last time we had a captain who had any rapport with the ref at all.

Richie's communication with the ref is quite interesting, taking last week's game as an example.

I think it started to break down when Darge was called "Too long" by the ref when jackling. I didn't really know personally that there was such a thing as too long, but OK. All I heard Richie ask was "Was his hands on the floor?" The ref wasn't interested.

I don't have a big problem with Richie asking this question or in the way he asked it, but from then he did seem to enter a more petulant mode.

The Price not being back 10 in particular stands out. I thought he came across as a moody child in that exchange.

he's meant to be increible at setting standards off the pitch and leading folk. and he's a superb player. but I di share your concerns about how he interacts with refs.

I didn't catch what he said about "that" Darge penalty, but SH refs are crazy hot "genuine jackal and supporting your weight", even if you're not scooping. you're not gonna change the call, so hands on the ground was a very naive counter point, I think?

on the price thing, JR kept saying it was five mrs so no offside. has there been a law clarification about retreating or something? I didn't get his point

edit: thought Finn did a great job flagging the head on head with ought pissing ref off (or getting anything from it, tbf)

[Simian]

for me, JR is a superb player, with.a rep among referees for being 'gobby'.

[robmatic]

for me, JR is a superb player, with.a rep among referees for being 'gobby'.

Wouldn't surprise me if he was a pain the arse to refs in his pre-captaincy days and that has carried forward.

[Simian]

for me, JR is a superb player, with.a rep among referees for being 'gobby'.

Wouldn't surprise me if he was a pain the arse to refs in his pre-captaincy days and that has carried forward.

I absolutely don't think his play is the issue. It's how he talks to them. and it's even worse for Edinburgh than Scotland.

[Blackmac]

for me, JR is a superb player, with.a rep among referees for being 'gobby'.

Wouldn't surprise me if he was a pain the arse to refs in his pre-captaincy days and that has carried forward.

I absolutely don't think his play is the issue. It's how he talks to them. and it's even worse for Edinburgh than Scotland.

Definitely this. His manner seems a bit abrupt and demanding.

[topofthemoon]

Ritchie is 100% an on-field leader, but he doesn’t seem to have the knack of talking to the ref, which is so big a part of the modern captain’s role.

If this is still an issue post-RWC, it should be re-evaluated. Finn might not be every ref’s cup of tea, but it’s noticeable that none of us could remember the last time we had a captain who had any rapport with the ref at all.

Richie's communication with the ref is quite interesting, taking last week's game as an example.

I think it started to break down when Darge was called "Too long" by the ref when jackling. I didn't really know personally that there was such a thing as too long, but OK. All I heard Richie ask was "Was his hands on the floor?" The ref wasn't interested.

I don't have a big problem with Richie asking this question or in the way he asked it, but from then he did seem to enter a more petulant mode.

The Price not being back 10 in particular stands out. I thought he came across as a moody child in that exchange.

he's meant to be increible at setting standards off the pitch and leading folk. and he's a superb player. but I di share your concerns about how he interacts with refs.

I didn't catch what he said about "that" Darge penalty, but SH refs are crazy hot "genuine jackal and supporting your weight", even if you're not scooping. you're not gonna change the call, so hands on the ground was a very naive counter point, I think?

on the price thing, JR kept saying it was five mrs so no offside. has there been a law clarification about retreating or something? I didn't get his point

edit: thought Finn did a great job flagging the head on head with ought pissing ref off (or getting anything from it, tbf)

That's a way that a player can be put onside by an opponent - but only in open play not from a quick tap:

LAW 10 Offside and onside in open play

7.Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
b. An opponent of that player:
i. Carries the ball five metres;

From a quick tap a player must retreat the full 10 metres or past a team-mate who was 10 metres back when the tap was taken.

LAW 20 Penalty and free kick

14. If it is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retreat, they will not be sanctioned for this. However, they may not take part in the game until they have retreated 10 metres from the mark or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has moved in front of them.

[Biffer]

In terms of past captains having good relationships with refs, Hogg managed to have longer conversations with refs than I've seen any other captain have at any level of Rugby.

[Simian]

Richie's communication with the ref is quite interesting, taking last week's game as an example.

I think it started to break down when Darge was called "Too long" by the ref when jackling. I didn't really know personally that there was such a thing as too long, but OK. All I heard Richie ask was "Was his hands on the floor?" The ref wasn't interested.

I don't have a big problem with Richie asking this question or in the way he asked it, but from then he did seem to enter a more petulant mode.

The Price not being back 10 in particular stands out. I thought he came across as a moody child in that exchange.

he's meant to be increible at setting standards off the pitch and leading folk. and he's a superb player. but I di share your concerns about how he interacts with refs.

I didn't catch what he said about "that" Darge penalty, but SH refs are crazy hot "genuine jackal and supporting your weight", even if you're not scooping. you're not gonna change the call, so hands on the ground was a very naive counter point, I think?

on the price thing, JR kept saying it was five mrs so no offside. has there been a law clarification about retreating or something? I didn't get his point

edit: thought Finn did a great job flagging the head on head with ought pissing ref off (or getting anything from it, tbf)

That's a way that a player can be put onside by an opponent - but only in open play not from a quick tap:

LAW 10 Offside and onside in open play

7.Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
b. An opponent of that player:
i. Carries the ball five metres;

From a quick tap a player must retreat the full 10 metres or past a team-mate who was 10 metres back when the tap was taken.

LAW 20 Penalty and free kick

14. If it is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retreat, they will not be sanctioned for this. However, they may not take part in the game until they have retreated 10 metres from the mark or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has moved in front of them.

Aha. Cheers.

[Tichtheid]

I was keeping an eye on Ritchie's communication with the referee in the game in St Etienne because of the flak he took in recent games. I didn't think he stepped over the line at any time in that last game, he was having a bit of a laugh with Berry at a couple of points and he made his point quite well throughout the game when the decisions seemed to very very tight, if we are being kind to the ref.

[Big D]

In terms of past captains having good relationships with refs, Hogg managed to have longer conversations with refs than I've seen any other captain have at any level of Rugby.

He's the best captain we've had in recent memory.

[I like neeps]

Interesting interview with Jack Dempsey on the Tom English/Andy Burke podcast. Whole episode is worth a listen to be fair.

[Blackmac]

Have just seen that the SRU are going to award retrospective caps to 40-odd players who played in internationals that weren’t given full cap status.

One of them is Craig Redpath of Melrose (Bryan’s brother and Cam’s uncle?) who gets a cap for a game v Tonga in 1993. I’ve never met the guy and I have no personal connection, but I’ve always felt sorry for him. He warmed the bench for Gavin Hastings throughout the GS season in 1990 and beyond, in the days before replacements, and never got a single cap! Hope he feels happy today.

Grant Wilson as well. Delighted for them all when you look how easily some come by caps these days.

[duke]

Have just seen that the SRU are going to award retrospective caps to 40-odd players who played in internationals that weren’t given full cap status.

One of them is Craig Redpath of Melrose (Bryan’s brother and Cam’s uncle?) who gets a cap for a game v Tonga in 1993. I’ve never met the guy and I have no personal connection, but I’ve always felt sorry for him. He warmed the bench for Gavin Hastings throughout the GS season in 1990 and beyond, in the days before replacements, and never got a single cap! Hope he feels happy today.

Grant Wilson as well. Delighted for them all when you look how easily some come by caps these days.

A guy I was at school with as well - Ruari Maclean, back when he was at Gloucester.

[Slick]

Rumours of a full team for Georgia.

Please not Finn, anyone but Finn

[clydecloggie]

Listened to the BBC Scotland podcast of the squad announcement. The interview with Jack Dempsey is really good - no fake Braveheart stuff but a really thoughtful explanation of how and why he finds himself in the Scotland squad, and the fun he's having.

Some of the others coming out with good quotes too - I can see why you'd want Dave Cherry as a team mate.

And it looks like the Georgia game will pretty much be the first XV. Toonie's explanation of a 2-week pattern all the way through from the St Etienne game via Georgia to South Africa and beyond actually makes a lot of sense - but if either Richie Gray or Finn Russell gets injured in the Georgia game...all the others I can see a replacement for that wouldn't necessarily weaken the team too much, but we need the guys that make the line out and the entire team tick.

[Big D]

My one concern is that if they plan to put the shags out v Romania some of them might be very under cooked.

Harris, Redpath, Healy, Crosbie, Watson, and others will have gad a big gap between games.

Should handle Romania fine but what if we get injuries and their 1st game in 5 or 6 weeks is starting at 12/13 v SA.

[topofthemoon]

My one concern is that if they plan to put the shags out v Romania some of them might be very under cooked.

Harris, Redpath, Healy, Crosbie, Watson, and others will have gad a big gap between games.

Should handle Romania fine but what if we get injuries and their 1st game in 5 or 6 weeks is starting at 12/13 v SA.

I think if that happens we are screwed anyway and the replacement being a bit undercooked only marginally increases the level of being screwed.

We need the top team out and for the top team to be absolutely flying to have any chance of beating South Africa. Latter part requires playing. First part then requires a bit of luck.

Healy is probably the most significant one out of that group for me as he will need to run the show v Romania. I think they will go 6/2 v South Africa and he won't be involved but I think if they then go 5/3 v Tonga he can hopefully get some game time and then be more comfortable coming in to start against Romania.

[robmatic]

Obviously I'm apprehensive about injuries but I get the logic of putting a strong team out. That first game out against SA is absolutely crucial and there's no point turning up undercooked.

[westport]

With Toony putting a strong a squad as possible out for Georgia looks like Rambo will be stuck on 49 caps, which will be a shame for him.

[dpedin]

With Toony putting a strong a squad as possible out for Georgia looks like Rambo will be stuck on 49 caps, which will be a shame for him.

Rambo will get his chance. I suspect the game will be used to keep some of the guys who are not in the 33 but may be called up due to injury in top condition as well.

[Big D]

My one concern is that if they plan to put the shags out v Romania some of them might be very under cooked.

Harris, Redpath, Healy, Crosbie, Watson, and others will have gad a big gap between games.

Should handle Romania fine but what if we get injuries and their 1st game in 5 or 6 weeks is starting at 12/13 v SA.

I think if that happens we are screwed anyway and the replacement being a bit undercooked only marginally increases the level of being screwed.

We need the top team out and for the top team to be absolutely flying to have any chance of beating South Africa. Latter part requires playing. First part then requires a bit of luck.

For some positions (Harris and Healy) I agree, but for some; either reserve second rowers, Watson, Redpath and Smith could all step in at short notice without it being a disaster v SA or Ireland.

[clydecloggie]

My one concern is that if they plan to put the shags out v Romania some of them might be very under cooked.

Harris, Redpath, Healy, Crosbie, Watson, and others will have gad a big gap between games.

Should handle Romania fine but what if we get injuries and their 1st game in 5 or 6 weeks is starting at 12/13 v SA.

I think if that happens we are screwed anyway and the replacement being a bit undercooked only marginally increases the level of being screwed.

We need the top team out and for the top team to be absolutely flying to have any chance of beating South Africa. Latter part requires playing. First part then requires a bit of luck.

For some positions (Harris and Healy) I agree, but for some; either reserve second rowers, Watson, Redpath and Smith could all step in at short notice without it being a disaster v SA or Ireland.

I disagree on the second row. Against both SA and Ireland our set pieces will have to achieve parity at least, with very few line-outs lost and good pressure on the opposition throw. I'm not sure the back-up second rows are at the same level as Richie Gray in particular in that area of the game.

[I like neeps]

"A big half ahead"