NPR

Can only assume this is a joke.

Depressingly accurate

I like neeps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:14 pm

Can only assume this is a joke.

I think there was a southern Bavarian state that did this a number of years ago and it proved that the vast majority of drivers are careful enough to negotiate junctions safely without the need of lights. I haven't heard whether they followed through with it.

Blackmac wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:04 am

I like neeps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:14 pm

Can only assume this is a joke.

I think there was a southern Bavarian state that did this a number of years ago and it proved that the vast majority of drivers are careful enough to negotiate junctions safely without the need of lights. I haven't heard whether they followed through with it.

Whenever lights go out at junctions or big roundabouts, traffics always seems to flow much better

salanya wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:48 pm BBC news just went to Westminster for Home Secretary questions.
Suella Braverman - what a nasty embarrassment.

The Speaker is not insisting on questions being answered, and no political debate is possible with these spoofers.
Pretty shocking state of politics and affairs.

Hoyle is completely spineless, fixed only on his peerage after he saw what happened to Speakers who cross the vindictive party.

In other news, bully boy Raab is "stepping down" at the next election. Another Britannia Unchained failure who fucked up everything he was given responsibility for with disastrous consequences, and, in the case of Afghanistan, I have little doubt fatal ones as well.

Slick wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:16 am Whenever lights go out at junctions or big roundabouts, traffics always seems to flow much better

At first it sort of does. Everyone is aware it's different, and is very aware. The problem is when people get used to it, they start relying on habits rather than being highly aware again.

Blackmac wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:04 am

I like neeps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:14 pm

Can only assume this is a joke.

I think there was a southern Bavarian state that did this a number of years ago and it proved that the vast majority of drivers are careful enough to negotiate junctions safely without the need of lights. I haven't heard whether they followed through with it.

There is/was a bit of this in Bodmin of all places a few years ago. Took some getting used to, all about eye contact and negotiating your way through it.

Hal Jordan wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:29 am
In other news, bully boy Raab is "stepping down" at the next election. Another Britannia Unchained failure who fucked up everything he was given responsibility for with disastrous consequences, and, in the case of Afghanistan, I have little doubt fatal ones as well.

In the 'Boris at 10' book, to be fair Raab seems to have got much credit for his deputyship while the fat slug was hospitalized - but then again the PM did set a very low bar. No complaints from staff about his conduct at that particular short time at least

This book is a real eye-opener into the goings on at No 10 during BB's time, much of the clusterfuck is not new revelations necessarily but confirms most suspicions that BB was interested only in the prestige of the position, had no particular detail for plans, policy and ideas but full of pie in the sky ambitions for his personal "legacy"; leadership of people was almost entirely lacking and Cabinet Office staff and SPADS were appointed on a bewildering basis ( some believing they were interviewed for one post and appointed for another far less suitable post); he was too strongly influenced by Princess Nut-Nut and the atmosphere especially towards female staff was often discriminatory or downright toxic.

He would have three meetings in a day and say something completely different on one matter to different people, so very few had an clear directive of what policy actually was. And of course Cummings was allowed if not actually encouraged to run No 10 as his fiefdom to the extent of even being de facto PM at times, manipulating events to oust people he didn't like or rate. Some very capable people resigned because they just couldn't stomach what was happening to them or in general, or pushed out to make way for a favourite or someone Cummings could intimidate and control.

We read of staff at No 10 leaving or joining regularly but the detail behind all this is just one long and massive facepalm. Of course some mind has to be taken that much information is anecdotal and some of those interviewed may have their own skeletons in the closet or agendas, but the book does give credit where due to BB and the other individuals so it's not merely a hatchet job.

I haven't even got to 'Partygate' yet!

Those who insist BB should still be PM should seriously be forced to read this book.

May not be much by itself, but failure to disclose an interest to add to all the other things

tabascoboy wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 10:36 am In the 'Boris at 10' book, to be fair Raab seems to have got much credit for his deputyship while the fat slug was hospitalized - but then again the PM did set a very low bar. No complaints from staff about his conduct at that particular short time at least

Amazing that "Didn't do something awful & newsworthy for ~15 mins while in charge" is a career highlight.

Insane_Homer wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:24 pm

tabascoboy wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 10:36 am In the 'Boris at 10' book, to be fair Raab seems to have got much credit for his deputyship while the fat slug was hospitalized - but then again the PM did set a very low bar. No complaints from staff about his conduct at that particular short time at least

Amazing that "Didn't do something awful & newsworthy for ~15 mins while in charge" is a career highlight.

Indeed, hardly makes up for the Afghanistan debacle!

Yeah. Shit bloke who did a very shit job in several high profile appointments and had the brass fucking neck to pretend he was being victimised, while grasping for a special title just for himself. In any normal government he'd have been laughed out of town, but such is the paucity of talent in the far right zombie masquerading as a mainstream political party that he's even seen as one of the more reliable ones. Good riddance.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nts-family


These restrictions, which are there to solve a problem that doesn't exist, is just the start. We can expect a full on assault on academics and "Lefty" or "Woke" universities in the next year to 18 months before the next GE.

Watch this space.

The Blob picking on Boris agian...

C69 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:39 pm The Blob picking on Boris agian...

Didn't he put it in his diaries?

Tichtheid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:00 pm https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nts-family


These restrictions, which are there to solve a problem that doesn't exist, is just the start. We can expect a full on assault on academics and "Lefty" or "Woke" universities in the next year to 18 months before the next GE.

Watch this space.

The massive spike in dependent visas being offered to undergrads, out of all proportion to overall numbers Indian or Nigerian, seems a blatantly obvious visa scam, no?

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:05 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:00 pm https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nts-family


These restrictions, which are there to solve a problem that doesn't exist, is just the start. We can expect a full on assault on academics and "Lefty" or "Woke" universities in the next year to 18 months before the next GE.

Watch this space.

The massive spike in dependent visas being offered to undergrads, out of all proportion to overall numbers Indian or Nigerian, seems a blatantly obvious visa scam, no?

That was Government policy and adverts from the Government were spewed over social media in Nigeria, Indea and China.
A dependents visa actually Govermnment Policy.

What utter morons voted for the Tories and their open door immigration policies?
If they thought the Tories were a party of low immigration that is

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:05 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:00 pm https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nts-family


These restrictions, which are there to solve a problem that doesn't exist, is just the start. We can expect a full on assault on academics and "Lefty" or "Woke" universities in the next year to 18 months before the next GE.

Watch this space.

The massive spike in dependent visas being offered to undergrads, out of all proportion to overall numbers Indian or Nigerian, seems a blatantly obvious visa scam, no?

This is a good thread.

Happyhooker wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 6:41 pm Didn't he put it in his diaries?

Boris Johnson has been referred to the police by the Cabinet Office after his diary showed friends visiting Chequers - the grace and favour home - during the COVID pandemic.

Tichtheid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:20 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:05 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:00 pm https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nts-family


These restrictions, which are there to solve a problem that doesn't exist, is just the start. We can expect a full on assault on academics and "Lefty" or "Woke" universities in the next year to 18 months before the next GE.

Watch this space.

The massive spike in dependent visas being offered to undergrads, out of all proportion to overall numbers Indian or Nigerian, seems a blatantly obvious visa scam, no?

This is a good thread.

Yeah the general principle the thread is getting at is fine, no real disagreement here. My point was more specific and related to the more recent announcement on cutting down spousal visas for undergrads, which really doesn't seem to me to be a controversial thing to do.

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:02 pm

Yeah the general principle the thread is getting at is fine, no real disagreement here. My point was more specific and related to the more recent announcement on cutting down spousal visas for undergrads, which really doesn't seem to me to be a controversial thing to do.

Cutting the visa for children and spouses of students will have an impact on international student numbers, and therefore it will impact on fee revenue
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... nt-numbers


From the point of view of someone who does not trust one word this government utters, to me this smacks of being part of the "stop the boats" rhetoric without taking into account any benefit having foreign students bring to the institutions and fellow students, and that is at best.

At worst it's a deliberate attempt to cut foreign student fees as part of an attack on woke academics and universities - they've already gone after the judiciary, the electoral process, the right to protest etc - is it such a stretch to think they wouldn't go after academics and universities?
There are already a myriad of exaggerated stories of cancel culture at universities, this is just another step.

Insane_Homer wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:53 pm

Happyhooker wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 6:41 pm Didn't he put it in his diaries?

Boris Johnson has been referred to the police by the Cabinet Office after his diary showed friends visiting Chequers - the grace and favour home - during the COVID pandemic.

No idea at all how these things work but would they refer him to the police if they thought he’d been speeding on the way to Chequers?

GogLais wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 10:14 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:53 pm

Happyhooker wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 6:41 pm Didn't he put it in his diaries?

Boris Johnson has been referred to the police by the Cabinet Office after his diary showed friends visiting Chequers - the grace and favour home - during the COVID pandemic.

No idea at all how these things work but would they refer him to the police if they thought he’d been speeding on the way to Chequers?

Civil servants have a duty to report information relevant to a crime under investigation.

C69 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:39 pm The Blob picking on Boris agian...

You could have meant this as a Colin "Bomber" Harris style affair seeing Boris takes on Boris for the title of heavyweight champion and undisputed blob of the UK

Biffer wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 6:01 am

GogLais wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 10:14 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:53 pm

No idea at all how these things work but would they refer him to the police if they thought he’d been speeding on the way to Chequers?

Civil servants have a duty to report information relevant to a crime under investigation.

I have no idea why folk are surprised that a documented and well known lier who is not nearly as clever as he thinks he is is caught lying about breaking the law by providing the evidence to the authorities himself! I also have no idea why folk think this is a political stitch up when his lawyers handed over the diaries and civil servants scrutinised them and handed them over to the police with no political interference at all in the process. I also no idea why some think he shouldn't be prosecuted should said evidence prove that our chief lawmaker did in fact break the very laws that he told the country about when standing at the lectern and his own Government passed through Parliament. Finally I have no idea why anyone still tries and defends the racist, misogynistic, free loading, crooked, Russian chum, Blonde Bumblecunt in the face of mountains of evidence that prove all of this and more! Slap the Cnut in jail!

Raggs wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:34 am

Slick wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:16 am Whenever lights go out at junctions or big roundabouts, traffics always seems to flow much better

At first it sort of does. Everyone is aware it's different, and is very aware. The problem is when people get used to it, they start relying on habits rather than being highly aware again.

Slick was police that served on London for a bit?

As a pedestrian or cyclist broken lights are nigh impossible to deal with in London mornings, the closer to the city the worse it gets.

Absolute free for all where all the focus is on other cars.

TheNatalShark wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:16 am

Raggs wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:34 am

Slick wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:16 am Whenever lights go out at junctions or big roundabouts, traffics always seems to flow much better

At first it sort of does. Everyone is aware it's different, and is very aware. The problem is when people get used to it, they start relying on habits rather than being highly aware again.

Slick was police that served on London for a bit?

As a pedestrian or cyclist broken lights are nigh impossible to deal with in London mornings, the closer to the city the worse it gets.

Absolute free for all where all the focus is on other cars.

Me, police? No, not me. Spent most of my time in London trying to avoid them

Tichtheid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:17 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:02 pm

Yeah the general principle the thread is getting at is fine, no real disagreement here. My point was more specific and related to the more recent announcement on cutting down spousal visas for undergrads, which really doesn't seem to me to be a controversial thing to do.

Cutting the visa for children and spouses of students will have an impact on international student numbers, and therefore it will impact on fee revenue
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... nt-numbers


From the point of view of someone who does not trust one word this government utters, to me this smacks of being part of the "stop the boats" rhetoric without taking into account any benefit having foreign students bring to the institutions and fellow students, and that is at best.

At worst it's a deliberate attempt to cut foreign student fees as part of an attack on woke academics and universities - they've already gone after the judiciary, the electoral process, the right to protest etc - is it such a stretch to think they wouldn't go after academics and universities?
There are already a myriad of exaggerated stories of cancel culture at universities, this is just another step.

In the absence of adequate government funding, I understand universities milking international students for all that they're worth, but it's not a model we should be encouraging and the standard to which many of these students are being educated is risible a lot of the time. Particularly at institutions outside of the big names/top 20.

A friend of mine worked for Westminster uni admissions for a bit and their business program was almost exclusively foreign students who had lower equivalent grades than their UK counterparts and were rubber stamped through their English 101 prep courses regardless of whether they were actually up to snuff. They also received a lot more grading leeway and were coached through their degrees to an extent that UK students weren't because they need those students to get their qualification and maintain the rep of the UK as a good place to go for one, lest the stream of cash dry up.

From what he heard and what I've read elsewhere, Westminster was far from the only institution donning the kid gloves for its cash cows.

On the periphery of this is the thorny question of how many universities do we actually need? Should they really exist if a pillar of their survival is to effectively give degrees away in direct exchange for cash, with the only demand being that foreign students go through the motions of acquiring a degree? Might it not be better to contract the number and ensure that they are all elite centres of learning.

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:53 am

Tichtheid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:17 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:02 pm

Yeah the general principle the thread is getting at is fine, no real disagreement here. My point was more specific and related to the more recent announcement on cutting down spousal visas for undergrads, which really doesn't seem to me to be a controversial thing to do.

Cutting the visa for children and spouses of students will have an impact on international student numbers, and therefore it will impact on fee revenue
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... nt-numbers


From the point of view of someone who does not trust one word this government utters, to me this smacks of being part of the "stop the boats" rhetoric without taking into account any benefit having foreign students bring to the institutions and fellow students, and that is at best.

At worst it's a deliberate attempt to cut foreign student fees as part of an attack on woke academics and universities - they've already gone after the judiciary, the electoral process, the right to protest etc - is it such a stretch to think they wouldn't go after academics and universities?
There are already a myriad of exaggerated stories of cancel culture at universities, this is just another step.

In the absence of adequate government funding, I understand universities milking international students for all that they're worth, but it's not a model we should be encouraging and the standard to which many of these students are being educated is risible a lot of the time. Particularly at institutions outside of the big names/top 20.

A friend of mine worked for Westminster uni admissions for a bit and their business program was almost exclusively foreign students who had lower equivalent grades than their UK counterparts and were rubber stamped through their English 101 prep courses regardless of whether they were actually up to snuff. They also received a lot more grading leeway and were coached through their degrees to an extent that UK students weren't because they need those students to get their qualification and maintain the rep of the UK as a good place to go for one, lest the stream of cash dry up.

From what he heard and what I've read elsewhere, Westminster was far from the only institution donning the kid gloves for its cash cows.

On the periphery of this is the thorny question of how many universities do we actually need? Should they really exist if a pillar of their survival is to effectively give degrees away in direct exchange for cash, with the only demand being that foreign students go through the motions of acquiring a degree? Might it not be better to contract the number and ensure that they are all elite centres of learning.

The universities in the UK are one of our only world leading sectors. I'd not fuck around with it too much tbh

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:53 am

Tichtheid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:17 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:02 pm

Yeah the general principle the thread is getting at is fine, no real disagreement here. My point was more specific and related to the more recent announcement on cutting down spousal visas for undergrads, which really doesn't seem to me to be a controversial thing to do.

Cutting the visa for children and spouses of students will have an impact on international student numbers, and therefore it will impact on fee revenue
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... nt-numbers


From the point of view of someone who does not trust one word this government utters, to me this smacks of being part of the "stop the boats" rhetoric without taking into account any benefit having foreign students bring to the institutions and fellow students, and that is at best.

At worst it's a deliberate attempt to cut foreign student fees as part of an attack on woke academics and universities - they've already gone after the judiciary, the electoral process, the right to protest etc - is it such a stretch to think they wouldn't go after academics and universities?
There are already a myriad of exaggerated stories of cancel culture at universities, this is just another step.

In the absence of adequate government funding, I understand universities milking international students for all that they're worth, but it's not a model we should be encouraging and the standard to which many of these students are being educated is risible a lot of the time. Particularly at institutions outside of the big names/top 20.

A friend of mine worked for Westminster uni admissions for a bit and their business program was almost exclusively foreign students who had lower equivalent grades than their UK counterparts and were rubber stamped through their English 101 prep courses regardless of whether they were actually up to snuff. They also received a lot more grading leeway and were coached through their degrees to an extent that UK students weren't because they need those students to get their qualification and maintain the rep of the UK as a good place to go for one, lest the stream of cash dry up.

From what he heard and what I've read elsewhere, Westminster was far from the only institution donning the kid gloves for its cash cows.

On the periphery of this is the thorny question of how many universities do we actually need? Should they really exist if a pillar of their survival is to effectively give degrees away in direct exchange for cash, with the only demand being that foreign students go through the motions of acquiring a degree? Might it not be better to contract the number and ensure that they are all elite centres of learning.

Pretty much this. I think it's hard to articulate what's going on at unis without having some first hand perspective, the whole thing is such a blatant scam it's unreal. In reality they are selling visas not degrees.

I'm taking a professional course right now which is allegedly top of the market, I've come across multiple people who can't speak English and significant leeway being given to international students, particularly with regard to cheating in assignments, which is absolutely rife. The whole thing is a pisstake that I suspect the university leadership is well aware of.

Circling back a little, Ticht is right that some international students are free money for UKplc and we shouldn't care about their impact on migration numbers. If we can expand numbers at Oxbridge/Imperial etc and eat IIT's lunch then go for it, I'd be the first to be in favour.

It is by no means true to say all international students fit the bill, and increasingly I'd argue it is hard to sustain that even most fall into this category. Let's be entirely honest here, bar a few cases that are likely to be exceptional, if you're bringing dependents over for an undergrad course at a low tier university you are exploiting a glitch in the visa system, nothing more nothing less. If you're bringing dependents you are also no longer free money, as you're very likely to take more out of services than you put in. If we're running net student migration at around 500,000 per year we need to have a discussion about how we house these people/provide other services/whether this is actually sustainable in a country our size.

If we are talking about the "Top 20" unis we are pretty much talking about the Russell Group, they have this to say

The Russell Group’s 24 members are world-class, research-intensive universities. They are unique institutions, each with their own history and ethos, but they share some distinguishing characteristics.

Our universities believe people and ideas are the key to meeting global challenges. Through world-class research and education they are helping to create a dynamic economy, stronger communities and a better future for the UK. They maintain the very best research, an outstanding teaching and learning experience and unrivalled links with local and national business and the public sector.

Russell Group universities have huge social, economic and cultural impacts locally, across the UK and around the globe:

They produce more than two-thirds of the world-leading research produced in UK universities and support more than 260,000 jobs across the country.
They inject nearly £87 billion into the national economy every year.
In 2018-19, 446,450 undergraduates and 155,655 postgraduates were studying at a Russell Group university.
Our members attract students and staff from around the world and work with major multinational businesses and international organisations:

32% of students are of non-UK nationality, attracted to our universities by the quality, relevance and reputation of research.
Russell Group members also have a strong role and influence within their regional and local communities, collaborate with businesses on joint research projects and supply highly-qualified and highly-motivated graduates to the local workforce.

The Russell Group's 32% non-UK students is much higher (22%) than non-RG universities

Overall there are getting on for 700K foreign students, well over 90% of whom leave by or before the date of expiry of their visas. They are not leaving people behind, their dependents go with them.

The dependents are yet another dead cat thrown on the table, it's not a significant issue and disguises the real motivation behind their policies. Even if you don't think the Tories are attacking the Lefty universities (and my whole point at the beginning of this is that there will be more and more stories about woke academics etc coming to the fore in the next 18 months), it must be obvious that this is just another part of the narrative of blaming foreigners for whatever ills are facing the electorate, Shirley?
It was the Polish, it was the Romanians, it was the EU, it was the small boats and currently it's the children and spouses of students

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:53 am

Tichtheid wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:17 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:02 pm

Yeah the general principle the thread is getting at is fine, no real disagreement here. My point was more specific and related to the more recent announcement on cutting down spousal visas for undergrads, which really doesn't seem to me to be a controversial thing to do.

Cutting the visa for children and spouses of students will have an impact on international student numbers, and therefore it will impact on fee revenue
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... nt-numbers


From the point of view of someone who does not trust one word this government utters, to me this smacks of being part of the "stop the boats" rhetoric without taking into account any benefit having foreign students bring to the institutions and fellow students, and that is at best.

At worst it's a deliberate attempt to cut foreign student fees as part of an attack on woke academics and universities - they've already gone after the judiciary, the electoral process, the right to protest etc - is it such a stretch to think they wouldn't go after academics and universities?
There are already a myriad of exaggerated stories of cancel culture at universities, this is just another step.

In the absence of adequate government funding, I understand universities milking international students for all that they're worth, but it's not a model we should be encouraging and the standard to which many of these students are being educated is risible a lot of the time. Particularly at institutions outside of the big names/top 20.

A friend of mine worked for Westminster uni admissions for a bit and their business program was almost exclusively foreign students who had lower equivalent grades than their UK counterparts and were rubber stamped through their English 101 prep courses regardless of whether they were actually up to snuff. They also received a lot more grading leeway and were coached through their degrees to an extent that UK students weren't because they need those students to get their qualification and maintain the rep of the UK as a good place to go for one, lest the stream of cash dry up.

From what he heard and what I've read elsewhere, Westminster was far from the only institution donning the kid gloves for its cash cows.

On the periphery of this is the thorny question of how many universities do we actually need? Should they really exist if a pillar of their survival is to effectively give degrees away in direct exchange for cash, with the only demand being that foreign students go through the motions of acquiring a degree? Might it not be better to contract the number and ensure that they are all elite centres of learning.

This is more a point about overseas entry into UK universities than Tory immigration policy, but I think it lays out where I'd place emphasis if I were setting criteria. It also lets me rant about one of my real bugbears of my time in academia.

I worked at Bath Uni and supervised a fair few postgrad MSc students, both UK and overseas. The students who followed on from Bath undergrad courses were generally of a really high quality, the international students were totally variable and in some cases incompetent - far too many could not converse in English, had to be spoon-fed theory, simply repeated back to me what I'd directed them towards in their research work (a real problem in an MSc programme).

The frustrating thing is, for MEng undergrad and UK MSc/MPhil postgrad, the standards are high and underperforming students were easy to remove - in fact, many dropped out voluntarily in first year of undergrad, or in early periods of postgrad, as the required standards were made very, very clear and were enforced. For international students at MSc it was almost impossible to remove them unless they didn't actually attend. I recommended one lad was removed during the first quarter of his MSc, and he was allowed through to graduation.

It turns out all that a significant volume of overseas students wanted was a UK university degree on their CV, and the actual content of the degree (and scope of personal development) didn't really matter - this has a reinforcing effect, that such students would seek prestigious institutes with non-commensurately low entry and participation standards for foreign students. It also meant that many such students had no ambition to stay in the UK, instead they wanted to leverage their shiny (but almost worthless in a practical sense) degree in their home nation - it wasn't really an immigration issue, which I see as a bit of a red herring here.

I understand the desire to raise income and to increase international footprint, but it can't trump academic rigour and standard. I agree entirely that we should focus upon quality, not quantity- many universities have a widening participation agenda (my wife lectures nursing and this is definitely the case for that sector) and that's fine, but you can't really do both.

There's an element of self-interest as well - it's common for researchers to use tutored postgrad research for elements of research such as literature review, and you simply can't do this with the low quality many international students. They go from an academic resource to a drag on resource. There was simply no benefit for either student or institute (outside of £30k+ pa fee) for the student being there.

I'd also point out that many UK universities have invested in overseas campuses, and I query whether this is for academic breadth or just to bring in money.

Anyway, tying this to tory immigration policy - I'd think Universities should be 'encouraged' to set rigorous entry standards as a default, for reasons of academic excellence ('protecting the product') as much as anything else, and this has the outcome that overseas students will both benefit from the experience and be a benefit to the university and UK. Student number are already higher than most universities can realistically deal with, and we shouldn't be adding to that burden solely for the fees. But don't ban or block the high quality international students.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 10:37 am If we are talking about the "Top 20" unis we are pretty much talking about the Russell Group, they have this to say

The Russell Group’s 24 members are world-class, research-intensive universities. They are unique institutions, each with their own history and ethos, but they share some distinguishing characteristics.

Our universities believe people and ideas are the key to meeting global challenges. Through world-class research and education they are helping to create a dynamic economy, stronger communities and a better future for the UK. They maintain the very best research, an outstanding teaching and learning experience and unrivalled links with local and national business and the public sector.

Russell Group universities have huge social, economic and cultural impacts locally, across the UK and around the globe:

They produce more than two-thirds of the world-leading research produced in UK universities and support more than 260,000 jobs across the country.
They inject nearly £87 billion into the national economy every year.
In 2018-19, 446,450 undergraduates and 155,655 postgraduates were studying at a Russell Group university.
Our members attract students and staff from around the world and work with major multinational businesses and international organisations:

32% of students are of non-UK nationality, attracted to our universities by the quality, relevance and reputation of research.
Russell Group members also have a strong role and influence within their regional and local communities, collaborate with businesses on joint research projects and supply highly-qualified and highly-motivated graduates to the local workforce.

The Russell Group's 32% non-UK students is much higher (22%) than non-RG universities

Overall there are getting on for 700K foreign students, well over 90% of whom leave by or before the date of expiry of their visas. They are not leaving people behind, their dependents go with them.

The dependents are yet another dead cat thrown on the table, it's not a significant issue and disguises the real motivation behind their policies. Even if you don't think the Tories are attacking the Lefty universities (and my whole point at the beginning of this is that there will be more and more stories about woke academics etc coming to the fore in the next 18 months), it must be obvious that this is just another part of the narrative of blaming foreigners for whatever ills are facing the electorate, Shirley?
It was the Polish, it was the Romanians, it was the EU, it was the small boats and currently it's the children and spouses of students

As I mentioned in my post above, that was certainly my experience.

Many international students were just after a prestigious degree, not to move to another country. Very few remained in the UK post-graduation

It doesn't really make sense, as a degree is transitory anyway - it's a fixed period that can't really be extended (if the student transitions to researcher, as sometimes happens, there's a visa pathway for that anyway).

Tichtheid wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 10:37 am If we are talking about the "Top 20" unis we are pretty much talking about the Russell Group, they have this to say

The Russell Group’s 24 members are world-class, research-intensive universities. They are unique institutions, each with their own history and ethos, but they share some distinguishing characteristics.

Our universities believe people and ideas are the key to meeting global challenges. Through world-class research and education they are helping to create a dynamic economy, stronger communities and a better future for the UK. They maintain the very best research, an outstanding teaching and learning experience and unrivalled links with local and national business and the public sector.

Russell Group universities have huge social, economic and cultural impacts locally, across the UK and around the globe:

They produce more than two-thirds of the world-leading research produced in UK universities and support more than 260,000 jobs across the country.
They inject nearly £87 billion into the national economy every year.
In 2018-19, 446,450 undergraduates and 155,655 postgraduates were studying at a Russell Group university.
Our members attract students and staff from around the world and work with major multinational businesses and international organisations:

32% of students are of non-UK nationality, attracted to our universities by the quality, relevance and reputation of research.
Russell Group members also have a strong role and influence within their regional and local communities, collaborate with businesses on joint research projects and supply highly-qualified and highly-motivated graduates to the local workforce.

The Russell Group's 32% non-UK students is much higher (22%) than non-RG universities

Overall there are getting on for 700K foreign students, well over 90% of whom leave by or before the date of expiry of their visas. They are not leaving people behind, their dependents go with them.

The dependents are yet another dead cat thrown on the table, it's not a significant issue and disguises the real motivation behind their policies. Even if you don't think the Tories are attacking the Lefty universities (and my whole point at the beginning of this is that there will be more and more stories about woke academics etc coming to the fore in the next 18 months), it must be obvious that this is just another part of the narrative of blaming foreigners for whatever ills are facing the electorate, Shirley?
It was the Polish, it was the Romanians, it was the EU, it was the small boats and currently it's the children and spouses of students

While I don't doubt that the Tories will continue to wage their phony war on 'woke' academics and students, I'm not sure that this attack on overseas student visas is part of that 'war'.

During their entire period in power, this Tory government has been using the issue of student visas as their primary response every time they get caught out in not controlling immigration numbers in the way they had promised. Back in 2011 Theresa May tried to drastically restrict the numbers of students coming to the UK as part of her hostile environment. As she said at the time:

"it has become very apparent that the old student visa regime failed to control immigration and failed to protect legitimate students from poor quality colleges. The changes I am announcing today re-focus the student route as a temporary one, available to only the brightest and best. The new system is designed to ensure students come for a limited period, to study not work, and make a positive contribution while they are here."

Sound familiar? In my view, successive Home Secretaries have concentrated their ire on student visas (despite the demonstrably positive benefit to the Country that overseas students bring, not least in subsidising the entire HE system in the UK) because it was one of the few areas of immigration that they can control through the visa system. Its a red herring designed to distract attention from their failure to have an effective asylum system or to deal with illegal immigration.

While the top universities are far more likely to have the cream of foreign students, they're also hardly likely to outright state "We're just using them for their money".

Admittedly it's over a decade since I graduated, but pretty much everyone in my friendship circle went to Russell Group or other top 20 unis and most of us had direct experience of foreign students whose level of English really should have precluded them from study. I've since taught children with literacy issues who showed better command of the language than the guy I got paired up with for one of my history modules. A mate of mine who did Engineering at Nottingham basically had to do a 3 person group project by himself because the quality of what the two foreign students were producing would've tanked his grade and so on. Pair that with the more recent experience of my friend who works in the sector and I'm sceptical of platitude-laden press releases.

Of course we also all had direct experience of foreign students who absolutely did cut the mustard and fully deserved to be there.

I don't doubt that that the dependents thing is a bit of a dead cat, although as Paddington said the sharp spike of them in the span of a few years certainly bears looking at as any comparative anomaly does, and this government is no friend to education. I was more focusing on the idea of foreign students as funding and how that's not really working very well unless your definition = universities getting money while churning out students who've barely learnt anything and effectively just been handed a diploma.

Edit - although, as inactionman states, it doesn't massively impact the UK since most of these students just want the diploma from an English university to be able to take home and point at. However, you would think that if we keep sending them back having barely been educated to get the piece of paper, the reputation of out institutions will suffer and the flow of monied up students might slow, which isn't good if the funding model is predicated upon certain numbers of them.

Hoyle finds he has balls in PMQ, but still giving Sunak a free ride to not answer any question

everyone in my friendship circle went to Russell Group or other top 20 unis and most of us had direct experience of foreign students whose level of English really should have precluded them from study.

Yes! Exactly this - you can't have interacted with many international students in the recent-ish past and seriously think we have a net inflow of c.500,000 of the world's top students every year. Once you get on the ground you can't help but notice it is a scam.
Whilst there is a significant amount invested in pretending this isn't happening, in the end it will devalue British degrees and the whole university sector if it is allowed to continue.
And this is before we get back to how we house and look after this massively increased number of students in a country allergic to building, but as ever with any immigration debate no one on any side really cares about the conditions that these people are required to live in.

Paddington Bear wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 10:16 am Pretty much this. I think it's hard to articulate what's going on at unis without having some first hand perspective, the whole thing is such a blatant scam it's unreal. In reality they are selling visas not degrees.

I'm taking a professional course right now which is allegedly top of the market, I've come across multiple people who can't speak English and significant leeway being given to international students, particularly with regard to cheating in assignments, which is absolutely rife. The whole thing is a pisstake that I suspect the university leadership is well aware of.

Foreign non-EU students were granted surprising leeway and not booted off their courses 15-20 or so years ago when I was at uni so I doubt this has improved. Our government has no intention of actually doing anything about reducing immigration beyond making lots of noise.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 10:37 am If we are talking about the "Top 20" unis we are pretty much talking about the Russell Group, they have this to say

The Russell Group’s 24 members are world-class, research-intensive universities. They are unique institutions, each with their own history and ethos, but they share some distinguishing characteristics.

Our universities believe people and ideas are the key to meeting global challenges. Through world-class research and education they are helping to create a dynamic economy, stronger communities and a better future for the UK. They maintain the very best research, an outstanding teaching and learning experience and unrivalled links with local and national business and the public sector.

Russell Group universities have huge social, economic and cultural impacts locally, across the UK and around the globe:

They produce more than two-thirds of the world-leading research produced in UK universities and support more than 260,000 jobs across the country.
They inject nearly £87 billion into the national economy every year.
In 2018-19, 446,450 undergraduates and 155,655 postgraduates were studying at a Russell Group university.
Our members attract students and staff from around the world and work with major multinational businesses and international organisations:

32% of students are of non-UK nationality, attracted to our universities by the quality, relevance and reputation of research.
Russell Group members also have a strong role and influence within their regional and local communities, collaborate with businesses on joint research projects and supply highly-qualified and highly-motivated graduates to the local workforce.

The Russell Group's 32% non-UK students is much higher (22%) than non-RG universities

Overall there are getting on for 700K foreign students, well over 90% of whom leave by or before the date of expiry of their visas. They are not leaving people behind, their dependents go with them.

The dependents are yet another dead cat thrown on the table, it's not a significant issue and disguises the real motivation behind their policies. Even if you don't think the Tories are attacking the Lefty universities (and my whole point at the beginning of this is that there will be more and more stories about woke academics etc coming to the fore in the next 18 months), it must be obvious that this is just another part of the narrative of blaming foreigners for whatever ills are facing the electorate, Shirley?
It was the Polish, it was the Romanians, it was the EU, it was the small boats and currently it's the children and spouses of students

More than one fifth (22%) of all sponsored study related visas granted were to dependants of students (135,788), compared to 6% (16,047) in 2019.

From the Government website. Come on, you're not seriously suggesting that a fifth (!) of international students require a dependent visa as well, particularly given:

Nigeria had the highest number of dependants (60,923) of sponsored study visa holders in 2022, increasing from 1,586 in 2019. Indian nationals had the second highest number of dependants, increasing from 3,135 to 38,990. There were almost 120,000 dependant visas granted to the top 5 nationalities (Nigeria, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka) in 2022.

So leaving aside five countries that have a drastically lower quality of life than here and have a long history of immigration here, there were roughly 16,000 dependent visas given out to students.

Outside of the top 5 nationalities, the increase in proportion was more modest (from 4% to 6%).

These students have purchased visas, not degrees. Let's at least be honest about it. We won't know whether they plan to stay after their visa expires for at least three years, of course, and given the massive recent spike I'd argue strongly that past performance cannot be considered indicative for this.

Radio 4 had an interview with a Nigerian postgraduate student who had come to study an MSc at Cambridge with her young family. She was spending a huge amount of money and would not have come without her family.

Her point was well made that folk like her were the best and brightest with large financial backing. Surely global Britain should be attracting these people….