The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Yr Alban]

Gave up when Smith was carded and Ireland scored their 5th. I just couldn’t any more. Left the pub and headed home. Missed the two Scotland tries as a result, but the game was long gone.

Pretty much everything that could go wrong tonight, did.
Conceded early
Defence shaky throughout
Ref decided we were the weaker side early doors and gave every single marginal call against us
Lost two players to injury in the first 20

Basically, the first 50-60 followed the exact pattern of my worst nightmare about this game. It was so entirely predictable and I’m raging. We were always going to lose this, but we didn’t have to make it so fucking easy for them.

[Tichtheid]

If the line out isn’t working then I’m not convinced Gray should be in this team

Wouldn't be surprised if both locks retire from international rugby.

I'm not sure we have anyone ready to step into their boots, tbh.

A case could be made for Redpath and Harris, but I'm not sure there are many others who are really pushing the 15 that took to the pitch to begin the match.

I've been disappointed in Darge, tbh, he hasn't replicated his Glasgow form for Scotland.

[Big D]

If the line out isn’t working then I’m not convinced Gray should be in this team

Wouldn't be surprised if both locks retire from international rugby.

I'm not sure we have anyone ready to step into their boots, tbh.

A case could be made for Redpath and Harris, but I'm not sure there are many others who are really pushing the 15 that took to the pitch to begin the match.

I've been disappointed in Darge, tbh, he hasn't replicated his Glasgow form for Scotland.

We probably don't but Gray is 34 and GG is 33 the end is very near for them. Both haven't had a great RWC either to be fair.

Harris will be 33 before the next 6N.

We really need to measure being competitive with bringing the next group of players through because some of the players will be gone by the 2025 6N. Cummings, Skinner, Sykes etc all need to step up.

[Tichtheid]

Wouldn't be surprised if both locks retire from international rugby.

I'm not sure we have anyone ready to step into their boots, tbh.

A case could be made for Redpath and Harris, but I'm not sure there are many others who are really pushing the 15 that took to the pitch to begin the match.

I've been disappointed in Darge, tbh, he hasn't replicated his Glasgow form for Scotland.

We probably don't but Gray is 34 and GG is 33 the end is very near for them. Both haven't had a great RWC either to be fair.

Harris will be 33 before the next 6N.

We really need to measure being competitive with bringing the next group of ayers through because some of the players will be gone by the 2025 6N. Cummings, Skinner, Sykes etc all need to step up.

I believe those players and others have the skills, but we need a step up in terms of how we bring players on. We don't breed ferocious, hungry animals in the pack, like others do and that is all in the head.

[Slick]

Wouldn't be surprised if both locks retire from international rugby.

I'm not sure we have anyone ready to step into their boots, tbh.

A case could be made for Redpath and Harris, but I'm not sure there are many others who are really pushing the 15 that took to the pitch to begin the match.

I've been disappointed in Darge, tbh, he hasn't replicated his Glasgow form for Scotland.

We probably don't but Gray is 34 and GG is 33 the end is very near for them. Both haven't had a great RWC either to be fair.

Harris will be 33 before the next 6N.

We really need to measure being competitive with bringing the next group of players through because some of the players will be gone by the 2025 6N. Cummings, Skinner, Sykes etc all need to step up.

I fear a lot of folk (and I definitely don’t mean anyone here) are going to realise very quickly that this is a golden era and it’s downhill from here. For a while

[Tichtheid]

Smith will grow into the job, but I really don't think it's close between him and Kinghorn at the moment. Graham and vdM were shut down really easily, like they were against SA, but they're the best we have. To be honest I'm not at all envious of Lowe and Hansen because of our duo, it's all about what happens up front and in the defensive tactics

[Yr Alban]

I'm not sure we have anyone ready to step into their boots, tbh.

A case could be made for Redpath and Harris, but I'm not sure there are many others who are really pushing the 15 that took to the pitch to begin the match.

I've been disappointed in Darge, tbh, he hasn't replicated his Glasgow form for Scotland.

We probably don't but Gray is 34 and GG is 33 the end is very near for them. Both haven't had a great RWC either to be fair.

Harris will be 33 before the next 6N.

We really need to measure being competitive with bringing the next group of players through because some of the players will be gone by the 2025 6N. Cummings, Skinner, Sykes etc all need to step up.

I fear a lot of folk (and I definitely don’t mean anyone here) are going to realise very quickly that this is a golden era and it’s downhill from here. For a while

Cheers Slick. Really needed to hear that right now.

[Big D]

We aren't as good as Ireland and once again haven't seemingly tried anything different.

Some players were OKish, some were poor. Some of the younger lads (Darge and Smith) will hopefully come out of this stronger. Some of the older heads were really disappointing.

Another world cup without doing anything telling.

Hopefully the injuries aren't bad.

The draw was a joke. It's of course funny for the lads on the right side of it but the team that was always the most fucked by ut was Scotland

It is more than that though ER2. We never outperform ourselves and for the three of the last four we haven't looked like it. Even Samoa and Fiji have big wins at RWCs and admittedly we were never beating SA and Ireland it is another 4 years without putting up the bare minimum at the world cups. Even if we were within 5 with 20 to go tonight would have felt different.

[Big D]

I'm not sure we have anyone ready to step into their boots, tbh.

A case could be made for Redpath and Harris, but I'm not sure there are many others who are really pushing the 15 that took to the pitch to begin the match.

I've been disappointed in Darge, tbh, he hasn't replicated his Glasgow form for Scotland.

We probably don't but Gray is 34 and GG is 33 the end is very near for them. Both haven't had a great RWC either to be fair.

Harris will be 33 before the next 6N.

We really need to measure being competitive with bringing the next group of players through because some of the players will be gone by the 2025 6N. Cummings, Skinner, Sykes etc all need to step up.

I fear a lot of folk (and I definitely don’t mean anyone here) are going to realise very quickly that this is a golden era and it’s downhill from here. For a while

Yeah we Will be relying on our outreach programme to help plug gaps. Wouldn't be surprised to see Tuipolotus brother rock up at some point.

[Yr Alban]

Smith will grow into the job, but I really don't think it's close between him and Kinghorn at the moment. Graham and vdM were shut down really easily, like they were against SA, but they're the best we have. To be honest I'm not at all envious of Lowe and Hansen because of our duo, it's all about what happens up front and in the defensive tactics

There’s nothing wrong with our wingers, but wingers don’t win you games. Our backs are great if they get a platform to play. If they don’t then they just look frustrated. As they did tonight.

[clydecloggie]

Living without hope is under-rated.

I haven't been this zen about a Scotland defeat since I took two new Italian colleagues to Murrayfield in the 2015 6N.

[Yr Alban]

We aren't as good as Ireland and once again haven't seemingly tried anything different.

Some players were OKish, some were poor. Some of the younger lads (Darge and Smith) will hopefully come out of this stronger. Some of the older heads were really disappointing.

Another world cup without doing anything telling.

Hopefully the injuries aren't bad.

The draw was a joke. It's of course funny for the lads on the right side of it but the team that was always the most fucked by ut was Scotland

It is more than that though ER2. We never outperform ourselves and for the three of the last four we haven't looked like it. Even Samoa and Fiji have big wins at RWCs and admittedly we were never beating SA and Ireland it is another 4 years without putting up the bare minimum at the world cups. Even if we were within 5 with 20 to go tonight would have felt different.

This. It isn’t that we have been knocked out of a group that could have been hand-selected to screw us over. It’s that we never, at any point, looked like doing anything other than following the script laid down for us. We didn’t cause SA any problems. We didn’t cause Ireland any problems. And we are better than this, or we damn well should be. We were onto a loser, yes, but other teams have managed to go down fighting. We have capitulated meekly, and the absolute worst part is that we all predicted correctly how it would pan out.

[Big D]

Biggest thing tonight is hopefully the injuries aren't bad.

I thought Kinghorn might be on to a game after raking the 1st high ball surprisingly well.

[Yr Alban]

Biggest thing tonight is hopefully the injuries aren't bad.

I thought Kinghorn might be on to a game after raking the 1st high ball surprisingly well.

Kinghorn looked fine when he went off. Minor HI I’m guessing.

Ritchie looked like bruised ribs. Somehow he seems to get injured early on in every important match.

[Slick]

Smith will grow into the job, but I really don't think it's close between him and Kinghorn at the moment. Graham and vdM were shut down really easily, like they were against SA, but they're the best we have. To be honest I'm not at all envious of Lowe and Hansen because of our duo, it's all about what happens up front and in the defensive tactics

Must admit, my heart sank when he went off. Felt like the game was up before we even started.

[Big D]

Ritchie in a sling.

[Yr Alban]

Ritchie in a sling.

Ah. He was holding his arm against his side, not clutching his ribs. Figures.

[SomersetJock]

I really don’t know why I’m so scunnered about the result/performance. Nothing happened that I didn’t expect to happen !

[Yr Alban]

I really don’t know why I’m so scunnered about the result/performance. Nothing happened that I didn’t expect to happen !

But that’s exactly it. We predicted exactly what would happen at this RWC and we were 100% correct. We were overpowered and outgunned against both SA and Ireland, as we knew we would be, but we meekly coughed up the points on both occasions without really trying to change the narrative. That’s what I am stewing about today. No matter what the players said during the week, they were beaten in their heads before they stepped onto the pitch. Ireland regarded us as a speedbump and we behaved as if we believed it.

Samoa were on a hiding to nothing yesterday and they produced an excellent performance and really made England sweat. We played as if we were mentally already on the plane home. We were always going to lose last night, but we made it look pathetically easy.

I’m (not for the first time) seriously wondering why I do this to myself and whether I should just stop.

[I like neeps]

I really don’t know why I’m so scunnered about the result/performance. Nothing happened that I didn’t expect to happen !

But that’s exactly it. We predicted exactly what would happen at this RWC and we were 100% correct. We were overpowered and outgunned against both SA and Ireland, as we knew we would be, but we meekly coughed up the points on both occasions without really trying to change the narrative. That’s what I am stewing about today. No matter what the players said during the week, they were beaten in their heads before they stepped onto the pitch. Ireland regarded us as a speedbump and we behaved as if we believed it.

Samoa were on a hiding to nothing yesterday and they produced an excellent performance and really made England sweat. We played as if we were mentally already on the plane home. We were always going to lose last night, but we made it look pathetically easy.

I’m (not for the first time) seriously wondering why I do this to myself and whether I should just stop.

No point in really comparing us to Samoa Vs England. England aren't close to Ireland right now. There are 4 good teams in the world cup and it so happens two were in our group. We're in the tier of England, Wales, Arg, Fiji, Aus, Japan etc. We'd look far better vs England as well.

We aren't good enough to challenge Ireland, it's been the case for a decade. And as slick said our really good bunch of players are on the way out so it's going to be tough times ahead.

[Biffer]

I really don’t know why I’m so scunnered about the result/performance. Nothing happened that I didn’t expect to happen !

But that’s exactly it. We predicted exactly what would happen at this RWC and we were 100% correct. We were overpowered and outgunned against both SA and Ireland, as we knew we would be, but we meekly coughed up the points on both occasions without really trying to change the narrative. That’s what I am stewing about today. No matter what the players said during the week, they were beaten in their heads before they stepped onto the pitch. Ireland regarded us as a speedbump and we behaved as if we believed it.

Samoa were on a hiding to nothing yesterday and they produced an excellent performance and really made England sweat. We played as if we were mentally already on the plane home. We were always going to lose last night, but we made it look pathetically easy.

I’m (not for the first time) seriously wondering why I do this to myself and whether I should just stop.

Makes you understand why so many people go to Murrayfield purely for the piss up.

I’m not that low, just a bit naffed off. Also not as despondent about the future as some x the overwhelming majority of that squad will still be around for the next RWC - Schoeman Ashman Fagerson, Cummings, Skinner, Ritchie, Fagerson, Darge, White, Russell, Redpath, Tuipolotu, Van der Merwe, Graham, Kinghorn isn’t unrealistic in four years. (And yes, I think Russell will still be going, he fucking loves it).

There are players coming through, and as has been pointed out, it’s improving the general standard that will make us better, not finding another Hogg or Russell. At Edinburgh I’m looking to guys like Harrison, Boyle, Muncaster, Dodd, Scott, Currie etc, and that’s without going to the academy. Similar at Glasgow. We have an awful habit of thinking if someone isn’t killing it at 20, well fuck them, they’re useless. Scotland fans seem to be completely digital when it comes to young players when the truth is more analogue.

[Yr Alban]

I really don’t know why I’m so scunnered about the result/performance. Nothing happened that I didn’t expect to happen !

But that’s exactly it. We predicted exactly what would happen at this RWC and we were 100% correct. We were overpowered and outgunned against both SA and Ireland, as we knew we would be, but we meekly coughed up the points on both occasions without really trying to change the narrative. That’s what I am stewing about today. No matter what the players said during the week, they were beaten in their heads before they stepped onto the pitch. Ireland regarded us as a speedbump and we behaved as if we believed it.

Samoa were on a hiding to nothing yesterday and they produced an excellent performance and really made England sweat. We played as if we were mentally already on the plane home. We were always going to lose last night, but we made it look pathetically easy.

I’m (not for the first time) seriously wondering why I do this to myself and whether I should just stop.

No point in really comparing us to Samoa Vs England. England aren't close to Ireland right now. There are 4 good teams in the world cup and it so happens two were in our group. We're in the tier of England, Wales, Arg, Fiji, Aus, Japan etc. We'd look far better vs England as well.

We aren't good enough to challenge Ireland, it's been the case for a decade. And as slick said our really good bunch of players are on the way out so it's going to be tough times ahead.

I would take some issue with the final sentence. Hogg is gone already (and the real Hogg went a year or two earlier). I would argue that the only other (older) player we genuinely can’t replace is Finn, and he is only 31. He might or might not make another RWC, but I am fairly sure he wants the next Lions tour at a minimum.

On the subject, Finn is our captain going forward. Ritchie hasn’t turned into the captain we all hoped he would. He’s quiet when he should speak up and petulant when he does, and gets on the wrong side of the refs far too easily. After he went off last night (he is also injury prone) it was noticeable that Finn was constantly in the ref’s ear. Not badgering him, just maintaining a dialogue, as the captain should. He might also make better decisions - after the loss of the early try last night, we had a lot of pressure in Ireland’s 22 and kicked two penalties to the corner. At least one was easily kickable. Why do we never, ever learn? TAKE THE POINTS. Keep the scoreboard ticking over to reward your pressure. Don’t go for the high-risk high-gain option every time. If you don’t score a try, and against a team like Ireland you probably won’t, it’s just a waste.

[Biffer]

But that’s exactly it. We predicted exactly what would happen at this RWC and we were 100% correct. We were overpowered and outgunned against both SA and Ireland, as we knew we would be, but we meekly coughed up the points on both occasions without really trying to change the narrative. That’s what I am stewing about today. No matter what the players said during the week, they were beaten in their heads before they stepped onto the pitch. Ireland regarded us as a speedbump and we behaved as if we believed it.

Samoa were on a hiding to nothing yesterday and they produced an excellent performance and really made England sweat. We played as if we were mentally already on the plane home. We were always going to lose last night, but we made it look pathetically easy.

I’m (not for the first time) seriously wondering why I do this to myself and whether I should just stop.

No point in really comparing us to Samoa Vs England. England aren't close to Ireland right now. There are 4 good teams in the world cup and it so happens two were in our group. We're in the tier of England, Wales, Arg, Fiji, Aus, Japan etc. We'd look far better vs England as well.

We aren't good enough to challenge Ireland, it's been the case for a decade. And as slick said our really good bunch of players are on the way out so it's going to be tough times ahead.

I would take some issue with the final sentence. Hogg is gone already (and the real Hogg went a year or two earlier). I would argue that the only other (older) player we genuinely can’t replace is Finn, and he is only 31. He might or might not make another RWC, but I am fairly sure he wants the next Lions tour at a minimum.

On the subject, Finn is our captain going forward. Ritchie hasn’t turned into the captain we all hoped he would. He’s quiet when he should speak up and petulant when he does, and gets on the wrong side of the refs far too easily. After he went off last night (he is also injury prone) it was noticeable that Finn was constantly in the ref’s ear. Not badgering him, just maintaining a dialogue, as the captain should. He might also make better decisions - after the loss of the early try last night, we had a lot of pressure in Ireland’s 22 and kicked two penalties to the corner. At least one was easily kickable. Why do we never, ever learn? TAKE THE POINTS. Keep the scoreboard ticking over to reward your pressure. Don’t go for the high-risk high-gain option every time. If you don’t score a try, and against a team like Ireland you probably won’t, it’s just a waste.

Yeah, the risk-reward calculation has to take into account who you’re playing. Kicking for the corner v England or Wales you could say, yeah, we reckon we can get it over the line about half the time. With Ireland you’re lucky to get over one in four or one in five times, so take the points.

[Yr Alban]

I really don’t know why I’m so scunnered about the result/performance. Nothing happened that I didn’t expect to happen !

But that’s exactly it. We predicted exactly what would happen at this RWC and we were 100% correct. We were overpowered and outgunned against both SA and Ireland, as we knew we would be, but we meekly coughed up the points on both occasions without really trying to change the narrative. That’s what I am stewing about today. No matter what the players said during the week, they were beaten in their heads before they stepped onto the pitch. Ireland regarded us as a speedbump and we behaved as if we believed it.

Samoa were on a hiding to nothing yesterday and they produced an excellent performance and really made England sweat. We played as if we were mentally already on the plane home. We were always going to lose last night, but we made it look pathetically easy.

I’m (not for the first time) seriously wondering why I do this to myself and whether I should just stop.

Makes you understand why so many people go to Murrayfield purely for the piss up.

I’m not that low, just a bit naffed off. Also not as despondent about the future as some x the overwhelming majority of that squad will still be around for the next RWC - Schoeman Ashman Fagerson, Cummings, Skinner, Ritchie, Fagerson, Darge, White, Russell, Redpath, Tuipolotu, Van der Merwe, Graham, Kinghorn isn’t unrealistic in four years. (And yes, I think Russell will still be going, he fucking loves it).

There are players coming through, and as has been pointed out, it’s improving the general standard that will make us better, not finding another Hogg or Russell. At Edinburgh I’m looking to guys like Harrison, Boyle, Muncaster, Dodd, Scott, Currie etc, and that’s without going to the academy. Similar at Glasgow. We have an awful habit of thinking if someone isn’t killing it at 20, well fuck them, they’re useless. Scotland fans seem to be completely digital when it comes to young players when the truth is more analogue.

Yes! There is no point in unearthing one superstar if the players around him are mediocre. At least half of Hoggy’s career testifies to that. We need to build depth of talent, and actually this is one area where we seem to be managing OK. After the anticipated retirements, the only positions where I am really concerned about our lack of decent options are 3 and 15.

[Yr Alban]

No point in really comparing us to Samoa Vs England. England aren't close to Ireland right now. There are 4 good teams in the world cup and it so happens two were in our group. We're in the tier of England, Wales, Arg, Fiji, Aus, Japan etc. We'd look far better vs England as well.

We aren't good enough to challenge Ireland, it's been the case for a decade. And as slick said our really good bunch of players are on the way out so it's going to be tough times ahead.

I would take some issue with the final sentence. Hogg is gone already (and the real Hogg went a year or two earlier). I would argue that the only other (older) player we genuinely can’t replace is Finn, and he is only 31. He might or might not make another RWC, but I am fairly sure he wants the next Lions tour at a minimum.

On the subject, Finn is our captain going forward. Ritchie hasn’t turned into the captain we all hoped he would. He’s quiet when he should speak up and petulant when he does, and gets on the wrong side of the refs far too easily. After he went off last night (he is also injury prone) it was noticeable that Finn was constantly in the ref’s ear. Not badgering him, just maintaining a dialogue, as the captain should. He might also make better decisions - after the loss of the early try last night, we had a lot of pressure in Ireland’s 22 and kicked two penalties to the corner. At least one was easily kickable. Why do we never, ever learn? TAKE THE POINTS. Keep the scoreboard ticking over to reward your pressure. Don’t go for the high-risk high-gain option every time. If you don’t score a try, and against a team like Ireland you probably won’t, it’s just a waste.

Yeah, the risk-reward calculation has to take into account who you’re playing. Kicking for the corner v England or Wales you could say, yeah, we reckon we can get it over the line about half the time. With Ireland you’re lucky to get over one in four or one in five times, so take the points.

Exactly. And if you peg them back, you keep yourself in the game and make it harder for them to build a commanding lead. We’ve all seen it over and over - once a team gets a couple of scores clear, they relax and become more confident, and a tight contest turns into a rout. Staying in touch on the scoreboard is vital against better sides. Ironically, we were much more aware of this when we were crap, and our occasional win came via Paterson’s boot. We’d never pass up a kick at goal in that era.

[Biffer]

But that’s exactly it. We predicted exactly what would happen at this RWC and we were 100% correct. We were overpowered and outgunned against both SA and Ireland, as we knew we would be, but we meekly coughed up the points on both occasions without really trying to change the narrative. That’s what I am stewing about today. No matter what the players said during the week, they were beaten in their heads before they stepped onto the pitch. Ireland regarded us as a speedbump and we behaved as if we believed it.

Samoa were on a hiding to nothing yesterday and they produced an excellent performance and really made England sweat. We played as if we were mentally already on the plane home. We were always going to lose last night, but we made it look pathetically easy.

I’m (not for the first time) seriously wondering why I do this to myself and whether I should just stop.

Makes you understand why so many people go to Murrayfield purely for the piss up.

I’m not that low, just a bit naffed off. Also not as despondent about the future as some x the overwhelming majority of that squad will still be around for the next RWC - Schoeman Ashman Fagerson, Cummings, Skinner, Ritchie, Fagerson, Darge, White, Russell, Redpath, Tuipolotu, Van der Merwe, Graham, Kinghorn isn’t unrealistic in four years. (And yes, I think Russell will still be going, he fucking loves it).

There are players coming through, and as has been pointed out, it’s improving the general standard that will make us better, not finding another Hogg or Russell. At Edinburgh I’m looking to guys like Harrison, Boyle, Muncaster, Dodd, Scott, Currie etc, and that’s without going to the academy. Similar at Glasgow. We have an awful habit of thinking if someone isn’t killing it at 20, well fuck them, they’re useless. Scotland fans seem to be completely digital when it comes to young players when the truth is more analogue.

Yes! There is no point in unearthing one superstar if the players around him are mediocre. At least half of Hoggy’s career testifies to that. We need to build depth of talent, and actually this is one area where we seem to be managing OK. After the anticipated retirements, the only positions where I am really concerned about our lack of decent options are 3 and 15.

Yep. And again the comparison with Ireland is useful. Who’s the best player Ireland have produced? Hard not to say O’Driscoll. Never won a knockout match at the World Cup, one grand slam, a second six nations in his last year playing at the age of 35. There are Ireland players who’ve played more recently with four six nations championships and two grand slams.

We’ve got a lot of work to do and we might fail. But let’s not write the whole thing off because one or two players have retired.

[Biffer]

I would take some issue with the final sentence. Hogg is gone already (and the real Hogg went a year or two earlier). I would argue that the only other (older) player we genuinely can’t replace is Finn, and he is only 31. He might or might not make another RWC, but I am fairly sure he wants the next Lions tour at a minimum.

On the subject, Finn is our captain going forward. Ritchie hasn’t turned into the captain we all hoped he would. He’s quiet when he should speak up and petulant when he does, and gets on the wrong side of the refs far too easily. After he went off last night (he is also injury prone) it was noticeable that Finn was constantly in the ref’s ear. Not badgering him, just maintaining a dialogue, as the captain should. He might also make better decisions - after the loss of the early try last night, we had a lot of pressure in Ireland’s 22 and kicked two penalties to the corner. At least one was easily kickable. Why do we never, ever learn? TAKE THE POINTS. Keep the scoreboard ticking over to reward your pressure. Don’t go for the high-risk high-gain option every time. If you don’t score a try, and against a team like Ireland you probably won’t, it’s just a waste.

Yeah, the risk-reward calculation has to take into account who you’re playing. Kicking for the corner v England or Wales you could say, yeah, we reckon we can get it over the line about half the time. With Ireland you’re lucky to get over one in four or one in five times, so take the points.

Exactly. And if you peg them back, you keep yourself in the game and make it harder for them to build a commanding lead. We’ve all seen it over and over - once a team gets a couple of scores clear, they relax and become more confident, and a tight contest turns into a rout. Staying in touch on the scoreboard is vital against better sides. Ironically, we were much more aware of this when we were crap, and our occasional win came via Paterson’s boot. We’d never pass up a kick at goal in that era.

12-9 after thirty minutes is very different from 17-0!

[Yr Alban]

Yeah, the risk-reward calculation has to take into account who you’re playing. Kicking for the corner v England or Wales you could say, yeah, we reckon we can get it over the line about half the time. With Ireland you’re lucky to get over one in four or one in five times, so take the points.

Exactly. And if you peg them back, you keep yourself in the game and make it harder for them to build a commanding lead. We’ve all seen it over and over - once a team gets a couple of scores clear, they relax and become more confident, and a tight contest turns into a rout. Staying in touch on the scoreboard is vital against better sides. Ironically, we were much more aware of this when we were crap, and our occasional win came via Paterson’s boot. We’d never pass up a kick at goal in that era.

12-9 after thirty minutes is very different from 17-0!

100%. Our game management last night was shocking. After the early shock, we were decent for a spell and had good pressure in Ireland’s half. We could feasibly have come out of that period 6-5 to the good, and then maybe it’s a different game. There is a massive difference in psychology between the teams. Ireland believe they are the best and they expect to win. Scotland don’t. We have galloping impostor syndrome and we have to overcome it to perform. If things go well, you can see self-belief surge through the team. If they don’t, you can see the heads go down. The Irish players got that arrogance through Irish dominance at club level though, so I don’t know what we can actually do about it.

[weegie01]

There are players coming through, and as has been pointed out, it’s improving the general standard that will make us better, not finding another Hogg or Russell. At Edinburgh I’m looking to guys like Harrison, Boyle, Muncaster, Dodd, Scott, Currie etc, and that’s without going to the academy. Similar at Glasgow. We have an awful habit of thinking if someone isn’t killing it at 20, well fuck them, they’re useless. Scotland fans seem to be completely digital when it comes to young players when the truth is more analogue.

Cammy Scott is a case in point.

He was two years below my son at school. He was always looked on as a decent player, but that was about it. Yet he has just kept on getting better. Not just better than he was, but better relative to his peers. He may not break through, but right now anyone watching the two of them would think Scott was the pro player, not Savala.

[Big D]

I completely disagree about the kickable penalties (which was only really one or two because kicking one would have negated one of the others a few phases later).

Going 5-3 in a game against this Ireland team isn't going to concern them, particularly when we had to win by 8.. We had to try and hit the front through tries.

Ireland are a completely different beast to any other side, they'd far rather give up 3 than 7 and even getting to 6-5 was never going to rattle them. The days of Ireland panicking because a team is hanging around are long gone.

We were moving the ball well and having a bit of success in their half. Kicking 3 then more likely than not giving them the ball back around half way after the kick off would only have allowed them to settle into their patterns easily.

That approach would also have come partly from the coaches.

[dpedin]

Irish did a job on us yet again. They had obviously highlighted that we were weak defensively in midfield and went there time and time again. Almost every line out the hooker peeled off and launched attack into our 12-13 channel and looked to break defensive line and off load to support runners. I suspect they identified that Jones wasn't the best defender and it looked just like that. Once they get behind defence then it is all about off loads and support runners and we couldn't cope with their tactics. I wonder if Harris had played the first 60mins we might have been a bit more solid defensively or would the Oirish just have attacked differently? Whatever they were by far the better team and deservedly won easily.

[Yr Alban]

I completely disagree about the kickable penalties (which was only really one or two because kicking one would have negated one of the others a few phases later).

Going 5-3 in a game against this Ireland team isn't going to concern them, particularly when we had to win by 8.. We had to try and hit the front through tries.

Ireland are a completely different beast to any other side, they'd far rather give up 3 than 7 and even getting to 6-5 was never going to rattle them. The days of Ireland panicking because a team is hanging around are long gone.

We were moving the ball well and having a bit of success in their half. Kicking 3 then more likely than not giving them the ball back around half way after the kick off would only have allowed them to settle into their patterns easily.

That approach would also have come partly from the coaches.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then. I thought it was criminally stupid not to take points when they were on offer. Firstly, because scoring opportunities weren’t going to come up often. Secondly, because it’s psychologically vital for our players to get some reward for their efforts. Thirdly, because Ireland’s defence is so good that a kick to the corner would always have a very low percentage yield in terms of points. And finally - and most crucially - we play Ireland every bloody year, we play the same way every year, and every year we lose. It’s Einstein’s definition of madness - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Take the points. Keep in touch. Give the players heart. No, Ireland weren’t going to panic, but they wouldn’t have been showboating and taking Sexton off either. We knew all this 15 years ago because we had no other way to win games. Now we pass up the chances because we think we’re better than that. Would NZ have kicked to the corner? I very much doubt it - they would have played the percentages, because that’s what they do.

[Yr Alban]

Irish did a job on us yet again. They had obviously highlighted that we were weak defensively in midfield and went there time and time again. Almost every line out the hooker peeled off and launched attack into our 12-13 channel and looked to break defensive line and off load to support runners. I suspect they identified that Jones wasn't the best defender and it looked just like that. Once they get behind defence then it is all about off loads and support runners and we couldn't cope with their tactics. I wonder if Harris had played the first 60mins we might have been a bit more solid defensively or would the Oirish just have attacked differently? Whatever they were by far the better team and deservedly won easily.

I tend to agree. I think you sometimes need horses for courses. Huwipilotu has been superb for us at times, but against a side as good as Ireland (or SA or NZ) their attacking power is more easily nullified, and a more defensive combo would be better.

[Big D]

I completely disagree about the kickable penalties (which was only really one or two because kicking one would have negated one of the others a few phases later).

Going 5-3 in a game against this Ireland team isn't going to concern them, particularly when we had to win by 8.. We had to try and hit the front through tries.

Ireland are a completely different beast to any other side, they'd far rather give up 3 than 7 and even getting to 6-5 was never going to rattle them. The days of Ireland panicking because a team is hanging around are long gone.

We were moving the ball well and having a bit of success in their half. Kicking 3 then more likely than not giving them the ball back around half way after the kick off would only have allowed them to settle into their patterns easily.

That approach would also have come partly from the coaches.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then. I thought it was criminally stupid not to take points when they were on offer. Firstly, because scoring opportunities weren’t going to come up often. Secondly, because it’s psychologically vital for our players to get some reward for their efforts. Thirdly, because Ireland’s defence is so good that a kick to the corner would always have a very low percentage yield in terms of points. And finally - and most crucially - we play Ireland every bloody year, we play the same way every year, and every year we lose. It’s Einstein’s definition of madness - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Take the points. Keep in touch. Give the players heart. No, Ireland weren’t going to panic, but they wouldn’t have been showboating and taking Sexton off either. We knew all this 15 years ago because we had no other way to win games. Now we pass up the chances because we think we’re better than that. Would NZ have kicked to the corner? I very much doubt it - they would have played the percentages, because that’s what they do.

You really think we didn't kick the points because they think they are "better than that"? They are kicking to the corner because they know 3 points isn't enough. The AB comparison isn't relevant because they are significantly better than us and will create more opportunities to get the mimimum 20odd points needed to go through.

Once in 10 years we have kept Ireland to below 22 points. We had to be aiming to score at least 25 to go through allowing for an exceptional defensive performance.

Last night wasn't about winning the game, for the players it was about winning by 8 and the most realistic way of doing that was scoring tries.

[Big D]

I don't think Harris would have made much difference. The one big defensive error in the centres was Tuipulotu for the second try. He doesn't keep the line with Russell, Jones and the winger leaving Jones having to try and recover and grasping at air.

[Big D]

Can only imagine what social media would have been like if it was Hogg or Russell binned for that trip too.

[Yr Alban]

I completely disagree about the kickable penalties (which was only really one or two because kicking one would have negated one of the others a few phases later).

Going 5-3 in a game against this Ireland team isn't going to concern them, particularly when we had to win by 8.. We had to try and hit the front through tries.

Ireland are a completely different beast to any other side, they'd far rather give up 3 than 7 and even getting to 6-5 was never going to rattle them. The days of Ireland panicking because a team is hanging around are long gone.

We were moving the ball well and having a bit of success in their half. Kicking 3 then more likely than not giving them the ball back around half way after the kick off would only have allowed them to settle into their patterns easily.

That approach would also have come partly from the coaches.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then. I thought it was criminally stupid not to take points when they were on offer. Firstly, because scoring opportunities weren’t going to come up often. Secondly, because it’s psychologically vital for our players to get some reward for their efforts. Thirdly, because Ireland’s defence is so good that a kick to the corner would always have a very low percentage yield in terms of points. And finally - and most crucially - we play Ireland every bloody year, we play the same way every year, and every year we lose. It’s Einstein’s definition of madness - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Take the points. Keep in touch. Give the players heart. No, Ireland weren’t going to panic, but they wouldn’t have been showboating and taking Sexton off either. We knew all this 15 years ago because we had no other way to win games. Now we pass up the chances because we think we’re better than that. Would NZ have kicked to the corner? I very much doubt it - they would have played the percentages, because that’s what they do.

You really think we didn't kick the points because they think they are "better than that"? They are kicking to the corner because they know 3 points isn't enough. The AB comparison isn't relevant because they are significantly better than us and will create more opportunities to get the mimimum 20odd points needed to go through.

Once in 10 years we have kept Ireland to below 22 points. We had to be aiming to score at least 25 to go through allowing for an exceptional defensive performance.

Last night wasn't about winning the game, for the players it was about winning by 8 and the most realistic way of doing that was scoring tries.

If you’re playing a team who are significantly better than you, the first thing you need to do is stop them from simply rolling right over you. By going for the high risk/high reward option, we let them off the hook when they were actually on the back foot, and allowed them to do exactly that. I get what you’re saying, but I still believe that what little chance we had in this game lay in keeping it as tight as possible, not allowing Ireland to run away with it, and hoping to bag the crucial scores late in the game when players are tired and it opens up a bit. We adopted a kamikaze approach rather than a pragmatic one, and we were duly shot down.

[Slick]

I don't think Harris would have made much difference. The one big defensive error in the centres was Tuipulotu for the second try. He doesn't keep the line with Russell, Jones and the winger leaving Jones having to try and recover and grasping at air.

I don’t either, but it was why I was half heartedly suggesting bringing in Redpath. Huwipulotu have been analysed to death and it just hasn’t been working of late as well as it had. In fact that seems to be a recurring theme, we have a season of something working really well, wither attack or defence, but then don’t seem to make the tweaks to keep it fresh and spend the next season with it not quite working.

[Yr Alban]

Sometimes I really hate Tom English. He loves nothing more than to put the boot in after a Scotland defeat. But I’m grimly satisfied to note him repeating exactly what we’ve all been saying here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67047942

- No plan B
- We’ll never be title contenders if we can only play one way
- The psychological blow of not taking any points from the period where we dominated territory and possession
- Our wingers have no effect on games if their service is shut down
- That we could play the game again, making all the opposite choices, and it wouldn’t have mattered.

His final kick in the face is to say that this is as good as it’s getting, because our U20s are shite and Ireland’s are amazing. This is where I slightly beg to differ. Our crappy playing numbers mean that our age group sides generally aren’t up to much, as the depth just isn’t there, but that doesn’t mean that we won’t be able to field a decent full team in 5 years. What it does mean is that the overall level of talent and ability in our team will be far below that of the real top teams. As we have also discussed.

[Yr Alban]

I don't think Harris would have made much difference. The one big defensive error in the centres was Tuipulotu for the second try. He doesn't keep the line with Russell, Jones and the winger leaving Jones having to try and recover and grasping at air.

I don’t either, but it was why I was half heartedly suggesting bringing in Redpath. Huwipulotu have been analysed to death and it just hasn’t been working of late as well as it had. In fact that seems to be a recurring theme, we have a season of something working really well, wither attack or defence, but then don’t seem to make the tweaks to keep it fresh and spend the next season with it not quite working.

It’s funny really - I was recently thinking that we’d got better at not persisting with people and combinations that weren’t working or weren’t in form. The dropping of Watson for Darge, for instance, and the original introduction of Huwipulotu in place of the Johnson/Harris combo. But we were guilty at the RWC of sticking with what had worked in the 6N, rather than what worked just now.